Guild Wars 2

I almost always play WvW. My gear and build are set up around this sole purpose. I run a shield (not just any, my one true love, flame-seeker prophecies). I use it mainly for blocking damage when hitting a Zerg and popping marks, running through arrow cart fire and a whole heap of different scenarios. I love it.

However, I’m always criticised for doing so because my shield actually gives me very little benefit in terms of trait allocation. And the one, sole reason?

Dogged March.

This, for a warrior, is pretty much classed as a mandatory trait. There’s no denying that in this condition heavy game (which is set to get more intense after the upcoming patch), that it’s needed in order to keep mobile and apply pressure without being kited too easily. However, in order for my shield to actually give me something back. I would need to drop this Mandatory trait and take Shield Master. The reduced cooldown and extra toughness would be fantastic and would be amazing for the build I run, yet cripple me in terms of my movement in mostly any fight.

So here’s the thing. Should mandatory traits exist in the form of this trait? Should players of any class have to take any trait which means they are viable, or without it they crumble? Or is that ok by you guys?

In addition, I’d love to see shield master moved from that line and put into something like arms or even the tactics line. I understand the defence line is all about, well, defence. But it seems any other off hand allows a boost from easily accessible traits, except the shield, due to a supposed mandatory trait that we need.

I made a well written reply on this topic and “Oops it seems something went wrong.”

Since I am not putting in that trouble again I will sum it up.

Mandatory traits are not okay. It means that the trait itself is so good it is overshadowing alternatives. There are two solutions; tone the trait down or improve the alternatives to be up to par.

When you can look at your options and there is no “right” way to build but instead traits would come down to personal preference, that is balance right there.

However that is not going to happen because of the different requirements in different formats of the game. Though it would be nice if “sub-optimal” builds would be generally accepted because the player him/herself has learned to play better with a custom suited build. Something many of these “mandatory traits” can simply not allow since they are required for counter-play.

KarlusDavius.1024:

I almost always play WvW. My gear and build are set up around this sole purpose. I run a shield (not just any, my one true love, flame-seeker prophecies). I use it mainly for blocking damage when hitting a Zerg and popping marks, running through arrow cart fire and a whole heap of different scenarios. I love it.

However, I’m always criticised for doing so because my shield actually gives me very little benefit in terms of trait allocation. And the one, sole reason?

Dogged March.

This, for a warrior, is pretty much classed as a mandatory trait. There’s no denying that in this condition heavy game (which is set to get more intense after the upcoming patch), that it’s needed in order to keep mobile and apply pressure without being kited too easily. However, in order for my shield to actually give me something back. I would need to drop this Mandatory trait and take Shield Master. The reduced cooldown and extra toughness would be fantastic and would be amazing for the build I run, yet cripple me in terms of my movement in mostly any fight.

So here’s the thing. Should mandatory traits exist in the form of this trait? Should players of any class have to take any trait which means they are viable, or without it they crumble? Or is that ok by you guys?

In addition, I’d love to see shield master moved from that line and put into something like arms or even the tactics line. I understand the defence line is all about, well, defence. But it seems any other off hand allows a boost from easily accessible traits, except the shield, due to a supposed mandatory trait that we need.

Jormel is correct. In PvP doggged march can be considered a mandatory trait (though you can still get by without it) in PvE nobody goes into defense tree for meta builds.

I agree you could get by without it, however cleansing becomes even more paramount to ensure those snares aren’t bothersome, which again changes my build and traits. I already run full melandru and -40% condi food. I feel it’s bad that conditions are such a massive, massive issues. Namely immobilise, but that’s a different thread.

It seems that mandatory traits do revolve around conditions. So are movement inhibiting conditions a little too good? Would scaling back those allow for less investment into condition cleanse/reduction on such a grand scale?

I agree with you there the “must have” traits in builds for a few classes revolve around fighting condtions.

Problem is at this point people are afraid to talk about mandatory traits. Why?

• Thief has mandatory traits: 3/4s of them get added on for free and the rest nefed, now thieves don’t even have anything to build for
• Elementalist has mandatory traits: All of the them are destroyed or moved farther in the trait trees than their power is worth.

I think Anet has ‘fixed’ the traits to the point where most people just want their class to be left alone.

Dogged March is hardly a mandatory trait.
Can it be really useful for some specific tasks? Sure. But it’s not like you need it for every build (not even in PvP ones) nor it does clearly outperform every other choice.
Talking strictly about PvP, Cleansing Ire feels A LOT more irreplaceable.

Ok, so is it a case that all traits shouldn’t contain any reduction to movement imparting conditions, in which case those conditions can be reduced globally? Maybe even normalised across the board?

Maybe a possible solution is to change condition duration to speed of ticks? So conditions are stack in terms of duration, however the speed in which they do there damage can be increased? In which case you have burst condition builds and slow ticking high damage condition builds?

Yes, I know this is a huge concept, but this is a discussion after all. It seems as though it’s a problem that conditions and their durations are the problem, in which arena bet have given a solution in the form of traits that reduce duration. Which is, in essence, a band aid for the problem?

Vargamonth.2047:

Dogged March is hardly a mandatory trait.
Can it be really useful for some specific tasks? Sure. But it’s not like you need it for every build (not even in PvP ones) nor it does clearly outperform every other choice.
Talking strictly about PvP, Cleansing Ire feels A LOT more irreplaceable.

Just for clarification, I used my situation as an example. Cleansing ire is also mandatory which stops other choices such as passive balanced stance and endure pain. While I like choices. Have 4 choices, all of which are essential isn’t the same as having 7 or 8 choices which have an impact but aren’t essential.

KarlusDavius.1024:

Vargamonth.2047:

Dogged March is hardly a mandatory trait.
Can it be really useful for some specific tasks? Sure. But it’s not like you need it for every build (not even in PvP ones) nor it does clearly outperform every other choice.
Talking strictly about PvP, Cleansing Ire feels A LOT more irreplaceable.

Just for clarification, I used my situation as an example. Cleansing ire is also mandatory which stops other choices such as passive balanced stance and endure pain. While I like choices. Have 4 choices, all of which are essential isn’t the same as having 7 or 8 choices which have an impact but aren’t essential.

Tell that to eles who have 6 essential traits…

Warriors are a mess. Cleansing Ire, Adrenal Health, Berserker Stance, and Endure Pain are all mandatory.

The fact that Rangers need 30 points for their only reasonable condi cleanse, or 30 points before their traps or signets are worth slotting. Or 20 (most would still say 30) before their spirits are worth slotting.

Thieves almost always need 30 in Shadow Arts.

Elementalists have needed 30 arcana since day 1. Most also consider 30 water mandatory these days.

KarlusDavius.1024:

Vargamonth.2047:

Dogged March is hardly a mandatory trait.
Can it be really useful for some specific tasks? Sure. But it’s not like you need it for every build (not even in PvP ones) nor it does clearly outperform every other choice.
Talking strictly about PvP, Cleansing Ire feels A LOT more irreplaceable.

Just for clarification, I used my situation as an example. Cleansing ire is also mandatory which stops other choices such as passive balanced stance and endure pain. While I like choices. Have 4 choices, all of which are essential isn’t the same as having 7 or 8 choices which have an impact but aren’t essential.

We have traits for different builds to exist.
When you design a build for a specific task or to overcome certain situation, you’re going to look for the best available tools (weapons, utilities, gear choices, traits, … ). Some of the choices might not be set in stone, allowing a bit of tuning (from a still quite small amount of alternatives), but it’s obvious that some of them will be a core part of THAT BUILD and completely irreplaceable.

As I see, a “mandatory” trait is the one shared by a huge amount of quite different builds. Thd one that make players to deviate from more natural choices (offensive traitlines for a damage oriented spec, defensive traitlines for a bunker one, …) just to get it.
Currently, the most clear mandatory traits I see for Warriors are Cleansing Ire (automatic choice for almost every PvP build) and, to a lesser extent, Fast Hands.

Dogged march I would consider on par with cleansing ire. You don’t want your ire to cleanse off movement effects which you should technically be geared for. Bleed, torment, burn, confusion, vulnerability (less extent) are way more important than cripple and chill.

But again, it’s condi based again. All defence runes and food are taken to minimise conditions, yet condi builds can gear hard towards that duration without hinderance.

Dogged march should lose the regeneration. It makes no sense.

Dogged March isn’t mandatory at all. It is just as a hambow build it doesn’t really make any sense to take any other trait in that adept trait line because you aren’t using a shield.

I think if they combined the reflect missiles and shield cooldown trait or do something to that effect, more people would be taking it if they used a shield.

Cleansing Ire is pretty much the only mandatory trait and Adrenal Health is by default because you get it anyway by getting Cleansing Ire. And maybe fast hands for any build that isn’t a healing condi bunker. In terms of utilities, some form of stability (Balanced Stance and Dolyak Signet) I would say is needed.

In WvW it isn’t really needed to have both Endure Pain and Berserker Stance (although most people at least carry one of the two). Unless you are a shout build, which probably means you are pretty tanky and sturdy anyway.

KarlusDavius.1024:

Dogged march I would consider on par with cleansing ire. You don’t want your ire to cleanse off movement effects which you should technically be geared for. Bleed, torment, burn, confusion, vulnerability (less extent) are way more important than cripple and chill.

But again, it’s condi based again. All defence runes and food are taken to minimise conditions, yet condi builds can gear hard towards that duration without hinderance.

But then we are not talking about Dogged March alone, but about the combination of Lemongrass + Melandru + Dogged March.
This can’t be applied to sPvP (where consumables are non-existant) and even for WvW roaming, a warrior could prefer running Lyssa for a full removal (or any other thing). Is DM that powerful when we lack either the runes or the food (or even both of them)?
It’s not a “mandatory” trait, it’s core part of a popular build used for WvW, where it’s taken on purpose to achieve something (in this case, being next to immune to movement related conditions).

Typically, when something is mandatory you want to nerf it OR look at why there are no other options (e.g. rangers and empathic bond tied to having few condition removals).

The biggest question is which for each one.

Bombsaway.7198:

Typically, when something is mandatory you want to nerf it OR look at why there are no other options.

Which makes me wonder why certain consumables have not been touched since release. Notably the ones involving condition duration, there is no doubt about these being mandatory for a lot of builds.

Question:

Is there a problem with a mandatory trait if it is BUILD specific?
Example: Engineers using grenades will want grenadier.
Rangers using spirits will want them unbound.

So long as the trait is in a line that makes sense for the build, I’m not sure I mind.
However, when a trait is more or less the best option for ALL builds, then I think it obviously needs adjusted. Empathic Bond on rangers is classic for killing build diversity but I wouldn’t dare be the ranger not running it.

JorneMormel.9850:

Bombsaway.7198:

Typically, when something is mandatory you want to nerf it OR look at why there are no other options.

Which makes me wonder why certain consumables have not been touched since release. Notably the ones involving condition duration, there is no doubt about these being mandatory for a lot of builds.

The thing about that specific consumable became l2p. When the game came out anyone running food condi’s ruan mostly Risotto precision and condition damage. Makes sense on crit procs, sigil of earth, and of course damage. Through theorycrafting and spreading of word of might people realized that condition duration is better then damage.

It is the only food for condition builds because condition builds are on dimensional needing really 1 stat and the food gives them the other.

Power builds have more variety thats why there is no 1 food to rule them all.

Bombsaway.7198:

Question:

Is there a problem with a mandatory trait if it is BUILD specific?
Example: Engineers using grenades will want grenadier.
Rangers using spirits will want them unbound.

So long as the trait is in a line that makes sense for the build, I’m not sure I mind.
However, when a trait is more or less the best option for ALL builds, then I think it obviously needs adjusted. Empathic Bond on rangers is classic for killing build diversity but I wouldn’t dare be the ranger not running it.

Two ways to look at your statement. In one way you’re absolutely right. There’s nothing wrong with specializing a class into a specific area via traits like your grenadier trait example. But when every build needs a trait even when not specializing, that represents a defficiency in the class and unless that area is corrected, the traits will only limit build diversity. You see this with your Ranger example as well as Warriors with Cleansing Ire.

Another way to approach your statement is also an issue with Rangers. Where I said above where specializing isn’t a bad thing, requiring traits before something is even useful to begin with is also horrible design because it limits build diversity as well. This can be seen with nearly every single utility skill for the Ranger as very few of them are at all useful without first investing 20 or 30 points in traits (Signets, Traps, Spirits).

Bombsaway.7198:

Question:

Is there a problem with a mandatory trait if it is BUILD specific?
Example: Engineers using grenades will want grenadier.
Rangers using spirits will want them unbound.

So long as the trait is in a line that makes sense for the build, I’m not sure I mind.
However, when a trait is more or less the best option for ALL builds, then I think it obviously needs adjusted. Empathic Bond on rangers is classic for killing build diversity but I wouldn’t dare be the ranger not running it.

yes, i think there can be a problem

specifically about grenadier:
if you want grenades, you take grenadier. if you dont take grenadier, putting grenades on your bar ever is a trap. your base weapon does more damage, has about as good range, and doesnt require effort to aim. grenades are a damage kit with very little utility in every case and high opportunity cost when untraited.

thats problematic.
there are scenarios in wvw and fractals where grenades are always the optimal weapon, but without the trait theyre too sucky to be usable.

One issue I have which Atherakhia mentions is the concept of having to “over invest”.
If I need a trait at 20, then I want there to be a useful one at 10 that synergizes. If I really need a trait at 30, then I want the 20 and 10 traits that synergize to be in the same line.

Too often, classes that have lots of different mechanics find traits for these mechanics spread all the heck over their trait lines to keep “even numbers”.

Or, if there is a trait that you feel you need for most any build (e.g. Ranger empathic bond) you, at least, want high utility traits at 10 and 20.

Lots of overinvesting I see.