Guild Wars 2

Hi,
I would like to post out my opinion about the ready up show’s change to deceptive evasion. The problem for this is that it will hurt shatter builds quite bad in a way that arenanet might have overlooked. Don’t get me wrong though I like it being changed for the clone on death builds.
But right now when for example a warrior uses earthshaker on me, I dodge the earthshaker and spawn a clone, right after he’ll try to use his hammer 5 to stun me but I have that clone nearby to daze that stun.
However after the change this is no longer possible and it will (in my opinion) really be quite a nerf to shatter builds.
Please reconsider this change or make it work in another way to still nerf clone on death but don’t kitten the shatter playstyle

Currently against some professions you are going to dodge backwards to create a clone between you and your opponent, so that the clone can soak the damage. Not that you can do the whole dodging back, against certain profession you have to use this, otherwise you’ll just die. Now that will no longer be possible.

Another example is the terrain unevenness. F.e. I get attacked outside of the clocktower, dodge, then go into the clocktower, and now can not use one of my clones, because he is outside (or stuck on a different position). Now even if I dodge multiple times inside the clocktower, my first shatter will only contain a very very low number of useful clones. It could be possible, that the whole shatter is wastes, because the clones are stuck somewhere.

Imagine your three clones are standing at a certain range, but you want to create a clone next to you, to get a good daze off. This will also no longer be possible.

Another thing I recently found out about:
When you shatter your illusions but they still have to run up to your target, they will count towards the cap for deceptive evasion (just not weapon skills). So if you use a shatter skill while having 3 illusions out and then dodge nothing will happen. Thus making shatter unplayable as a build

It will only not work if you already have 3 illusions out, which is not that much of a problem for a shatter build. Vigor and overall damage nerf will hurt shatter much more.

Also, as a shatter you are likely to trait for Illusionary Persona, so you don’t need a clone to use your F3 at all.

/edit: Also…if you dodge earthshaker, wouldn’t the clone spawned by Deceptive Evasion be killed anyway?

Iavra.8510:

It will only not work if you already have 3 illusions out, which is not that much of a problem for a shatter build.

Here are some example that this change will hurt a lot:

• Currently against some professions you are going to dodge backwards to create a clone between you and your opponent, so that the clone can soak the damage. Not that you can do the whole dodging back, against certain profession you have to use this, otherwise you’ll just die. Now that will no longer be possible.

• Another example is the terrain unevenness. F.e. I get attacked outside of the clocktower, dodge, then go into the clocktower, and now can not use one of my clones, because he is outside (or stuck on a different position). Now even if I dodge multiple times inside the clocktower, my first shatter will only contain a very very low number of useful clones. It could be possible, that the whole shatter is wastes, because the clones are stuck somewhere.

• Imagine your three clones are standing at a certain range, but you want to create a clone next to you, to get a good daze off. This will also no longer be possible.

thank you teutos for constructing them, I’ll include them in the main post

It’s kinda confusing to write in 2 threads about the exact same topic (See mesmer forums).

While i agree with your points, DE nerf is the minor issue since the Vigor nerf will most likely result in ~25% less dodges than before so at some of these occassions you won’t even be able to dodge.

Personally, a much simpler solution would be to make all “on clone death” traits to only trigger when a clone is actually killed, not when it is replaced and leave DE where it is.

But we know ArenaNet, they will nerf everything related to the core issue without touching the actual problem in any way.

Now it could be switched to adept tier, so mesmer can catch some other traits.

What it will really affect is fighting against BS thieves.
Now dodging and letting the clone eat the Backstab, granting revealed to the thief, is one of the keys to beating thieves. After this change, they will simply hit the air and won’t get revealed.
At least, they will not get revealed THAT often.

LunarNacht.8913:

Now it could be switched to adept tier, so mesmer can catch some other traits.

I really mean this as a suggestion.

This trait is very important for many builds. And most simply take it, locking 20 points into this line. That isn’t really a problem, because this line also has another good trait that’s taken in many builds.
Switching blade training and deceptive evasion wouldn’t destroy any build. At least none of the ones I checked at intothemists.com.

But it would free 10 points on the basic (most smooth) shatter build.
Illusions 30 and Dueling 20 > Illusions 30 and Dueling 10
Instead of having only 20 points left we would have 30. These could be spend the same than before or they could be used completly different.
Taking 30 in Domination would be an option for more power or its utility traits, like cleansing conflagration or confounding suggestions.
Or we could take 30 in Inspiration for shattered conditions or restorative illusions.

It would open more ways for shatter builds.

As I’m not that into PU and stuff it could backfire someway I didn’t think about, so feel free to destroy this suggestion. What would be bad about this?

Hi, r40 sPvP, ~3k hours on Mes, bought 2k gems in the last few weeks

The proposed changes to DE are terribly misplaced and a negative on the whole.

Playing shatter, there are many, many times where you want the control of an immediate clone in melee range. This can be as an interrupt to ward off a foe, more damage for pressuring a downed player, or simply because positioning has changed in the short term (Mesmer has many instantaneous blinks so this is not a rare occurrence).

If clone death traits are a problem, why not change the traits themselves? They’re already set to ignore shatter conditions so the framework is there — just make them proc solely on death from actual player damage. This would be far less invasive than reworking a trait that has impact on hundreds of players who do not use these traits at all.

I deeply implore the devs to reconsider this change, it will make the Mesmer a less enjoyable and simpler class to play as a result. I am not sure why the team is pushing us towards a “turtling” style where three illusions (in their eyes, ideally phantasms) are kept up at all times but it is a mark down in all categories from the fast and fluid feeling one gets playing traditional Mes.

— Bliss

Problem with the “solely on death from actual player damage” is that it would then be a nerf to Scepter and other clone generating abilities. Really, what you would need to change is that the clone death traits ONLY be changed for DE.

oh, that would be good
if clone dies due to DE, it doesn’t explode

done. everyone is happy

I think its more a bug fix. DE was not working as they wanted to work.

alanis.6094:

Problem with the “solely on death from actual player damage” is that it would then be a nerf to Scepter and other clone generating abilities. Really, what you would need to change is that the clone death traits ONLY be changed for DE.

They dont said that the other clone generating abilities would not work. DE just wont create more if you have already 3 illusions up.

silentnight warrior.2714:

I think its more a bug fix. DE was not working as they wanted to work.

But there’s no evidence for this? DE has been the same for over a year, it received zero attention until clone death became popular. It was also phrased quite specifically as a nerf on the stream, not a bug fix.

Dont get me wrong, its a nerf, but it seems more a bug fix because DE was not “optimized” to work with some mesmer builds like phantasm. The other issue was it could lead to cheese builds. So they optimized DE.

shimmerless.4560:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I think its more a bug fix. DE was not working as they wanted to work.

But there’s no evidence for this? DE has been the same for over a year, it received zero attention until clone death became popular. It was also phrased quite specifically as a nerf on the stream, not a bug fix.

There are bugs in this game that have been there since launch. It doesn’t mean that they were intended to be that way.

No, it’s clearly a nerf; the real question that baffles me is — what was the impetus behind this specific nerf? Generally speaking nerfs are targeted at things that are causing some kind of imbalanced or overpowered gameplay; nerfing DE affects almost everything. Did they just sit around and decide “oh, mesmer is too strong, we should nerf it”!? And if so — what universe does idea that come from?

Every time we get hit it’s a double nerf, far from the “slow and careful” adjustments they claim to aim for.

• Confusion damage was halved and glamour traits were nerfed: together.
• Blurred frenzy cooldown increased and changed to evasion: together.
• Now, vigor nerfed, and DE nerfed: together.

Whatever happened to making small, incremental changes and judging the effects?

“DE clone replacement doesn’t trigger on-death effects.” would be a much more reasonable way to go, if the intention was to nerf clone-death builds.

^Agree with this guy 100%. It’s a bad nerf to nearly every Mesmer spec.

I’m re-posting from the general thread since it’s more relevant on this specific thread.

I respectfully take offence at having my Mesmer build and play-style called ‘cheesy’ by the devs when they talked about the upcoming changes to Deceptive Evasion.

I’ve always enjoyed a non standard build and play-style with my Mesmer in PvE. As almost in defiance to the idea that Confusion isn’t viable in PvE I built mine entirely around Confusion & other conditions just to prove it wrong.

DE proccing clone death traits on dodge is (was I suppose) the backbone to my build and play-style strategy, and made it just barely viable in PvE with regards to damage output. I also found the play-style interesting, fun and definitely not ‘cheesy’. To me ‘cheesy’ builds rely on passives so heavily that there is no reactiveness left to the play-style, it’s simply auto-pilot, no dynamic trade offs with costs of actions, no positional awareness required…it’s just too easy. I absolutely disagree that this is the case with builds using DE clone death trait proc’s as a large part of their damage such as mine.

A lot needs to be quickly and skillfully considered in a fight if you are using DE as a damage generator. For instance:

• Is the clone that will be overridden in range of the target?
• Should you use one of your dodges just for damage or should you hold off in case you need it to avoid an attack?
• If you have 3 phantasms out is it worth it to sacrifice one for the on-death trait conditions, and which one would be replaced?
• Is it better to follow through with an attack chain (like scepter 1) or interrupt it to dodge?
• Should you dodge and shatter for a needed quick stun when your illusions are away from the target?
• If your target is running but next to a clone, should you dodge in order to cripple them?

Now instead of having my clone on-death traits controlled by my dodge I am forced to use skills like Phase Retreat or Mirror Images just for their clone ‘overriding’ properties, as well as being even more chained to the scepter 1 auto-attack.

My entire play-style was so off-handedly dismissed as ‘cheesy’ and then made so completely impotent by the Deceptive Evasion nerf that it makes me suspect that not a lot of thought or reasoning went into this upcoming change.

EDIT: I just ran some tests in the HotM and my condition applications through DE account for between 1/3 – 1/2 of my total condition output. As a condition Mesmer that’s a lot more than the 10% critical damage reduction others are getting so worked up about.

@OP: ANET in general is making EVERY class simpler to play. They have been buff a lot of the no skill passives recently and nerfed the skillful play. Examples:

Passives
Heal signet
AOE damage

Nerfs:
Vigor

style.6173:

@OP: ANET in general is making EVERY class simpler to play. They have been buff a lot of the no skill passives recently and nerfed the skillful play. Examples:

Passives
Heal signet
AOE damage

Nerfs:
Vigor

They need to make the game easier to understand and harder to execute in order to get bigger in e-sports. Futball (Soccer) is the worlds most popular sport in large part because it follows the principals of being easy to understand and hard to execute.

Shockwave.1230:

style.6173:

@OP: ANET in general is making EVERY class simpler to play. They have been buff a lot of the no skill passives recently and nerfed the skillful play. Examples:

Passives
Heal signet
AOE damage

Nerfs:
Vigor

They need to make the game easier to understand and harder to execute in order to get bigger in e-sports. Futball (Soccer) is the worlds most popular sport in large part because it follows the principals of being easy to understand and hard to execute.

Agree completely. Futball is also the world’s most popular sport in large part because it’s one of the cheapest (1 ball required to play).

Anyway, this change, and the entire line of thinking, needs to be aborted.

I don’t really PvP that much so this is an honest question.

Were players in either sPvP or WvW complaining about how OP on-death traits were when coupled with DE?

To me that nerf seemed to come out of left field and was unwarranted. It was the cornerstone to my own condition build and drops my damage almost in half so maybe I feel a bit stung personally but I just don’t understand why they felt it necessary.

So was this being seen as a big Mesmer OP issue in PvP land?

Wasbunny.6531:

I don’t really PvP that much so this is an honest question.

Were players in either sPvP or WvW complaining about how OP on-death traits were when coupled with DE?

…snip…

So was this being seen as a big Mesmer OP issue in PvP land?

Yes, on-death traits combined with prismatic understanding to make a disgusting and rediculous build that was very tanky, put out a ton of damage, and was very hard to fight against. Instead of nerfing pristmatic understanding, I guess they chose deceptive evasion, as it is incredibly good for a master-trait as it is.

BlackBeard.2873:

Wasbunny.6531:

I don’t really PvP that much so this is an honest question.

Were players in either sPvP or WvW complaining about how OP on-death traits were when coupled with DE?

…snip…

So was this being seen as a big Mesmer OP issue in PvP land?

Yes, on-death traits combined with prismatic understanding to make a disgusting and rediculous build that was very tanky, put out a ton of damage, and was very hard to fight against. Instead of nerfing pristmatic understanding, I guess they chose deceptive evasion, as it is incredibly good for a master-trait as it is.

Thanks, I sort of suspected they were trying to nerf PU builds. I guess what I don’t understand is aren’t PU builds main strengths the actual Prismatic Understanding trait coupled with the amount of stealthing available?

(honestly asking again) Were the on-death conditions really what was killing people fighting against a PU build? I haven’t played a PU build so I can’t say for sure but I’m full condition damage spec’d and can’t imagine just my on-death traits killing an actual player on their own. Was that really their main source of damage?

^

The main problem with ANet’s logic there is this will simply push people more into PU builds and a the same time guts one of only 3 ways to use your illusions effectively.

Illusions can essentially:
-Be used for shatters,
-Kept alive for damage dealing (phantasms)
-Or spawned quickly to overwrite to disorient and proc death effects.

The last of those three should be a valid and supported playstyle! If the conditions are too much with PU, perhaps one of those problems should be tackled instead of destroying DE and completely shutting down fast clone spawning gameplay.

I for example run a sword/sword mes with DE and some of the Clone Death traits. It is incredibly fun, and the in-your-face doding style seems to disorient enemies. The conditions generated support the build with weakness, cripple and vuln, but are certainly nothing near powerful.

Yeah, it’s actually pretty ironic if they are trying to squash PU builds since I’m now finding myself looking at it as the only viable alternative to mine. I find the play-style of phantasm builds boring and shatter specs really hard to control in PvE, especially in large events. I was really enjoying the constant bouncing around exploding clones all over the place with my weird ‘Mesmermancer’. Then the devs casually called it ‘cheesy’ and killed her.

All rabid, all ascended gear too so I need to find another even half-way viable condition build that I enjoy playing. Guess it’s time to watch some PU Mesmer videos…

Wasbunny.6531:

Yeah, it’s actually pretty ironic if they are trying to squash PU builds since I’m now finding myself looking at it as the only viable alternative to mine. I find the play-style of phantasm builds boring and shatter specs really hard to control in PvE, especially in large events. I was really enjoying the constant bouncing around exploding clones all over the place with my weird ‘Mesmermancer’. Then the devs casually called it ‘cheesy’ and killed her.

All rabid, all ascended gear too so I need to find another even half-way viable condition build that I enjoy playing. Guess it’s time to watch some PU Mesmer videos…

yeah if the mes discovers 1 build that we use a lot, they nerf it right away, but war cc spam is not cheese? they shave war, but never really nerf it they destroyed glamours and stepped on us and not enough they even introduced perplexity runes that gave confusion to other classes that could stack it better then mesmer ever could. theyy keep stepping on us, ignoring us in wvw. it feels like this:
anet balance team:
“so mesmer changes?”
“hmm the clones are annoying when i fight them on my war”
“yeah, so nerf?”
“yeah, but then they will all cry.”
“hmm givem a mantra then?”
“hmm, yeah something.”
“nah, they dont need anything, they are in a good place.”
“but wvw, they are not really happy.”
“nah they got veil and portal, they dont need anything.”

Valarauka.2719:

“DE clone replacement doesn’t trigger on-death effects.” would be a much more reasonable way to go, if the intention was to nerf clone-death builds.

I agree and as I’ve said, it’s a more elegant solution since the ability to recognize how a clone died is already in the game (shatters do not produce on-death effects).

I am in deep hope that this change does not go through as planned.

Lmao @ mesmers saying they don’t have enough toys. hahaha

Furajir.3815:

Lmao @ mesmers saying they don’t have enough toys. hahaha

sais the guy that walks around with a zoo as spirit ranger or whatever u play. u clearly dont get what mes is about. ever been forced to use utilities? yeah welcome to the wvw mesmer! u are not allowed to trait or bring utilities that help u survive at least. u are required to bring veil,tw,portal and temportal curtain for pulls other than that u stand on the side and hope u tag something and also if u dont have veil u are useless and wont get to play in organized guilds ever.

This is absolutely a nerf, but it could also be to mitigate the ease that mesmer’s will have access to energy sigil (maybe energy sigils should get a nerf? =/); X-post from mesmer forums:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Deceptive-Evasion-nerf/page/1#

Here’s also a simple visual display to explain the issues this nerf will bring via Vesu Verra:

http://imgur.com/a/kryzw

selan.8354:

Furajir.3815:

Lmao @ mesmers saying they don’t have enough toys. hahaha

sais the guy that walks around with a zoo as spirit ranger or whatever u play. u clearly dont get what mes is about. ever been forced to use utilities? yeah welcome to the wvw mesmer! u are not allowed to trait or bring utilities that help u survive at least. u are required to bring veil,tw,portal and temportal curtain for pulls other than that u stand on the side and hope u tag something and also if u dont have veil u are useless and wont get to play in organized guilds ever.

I can glean two things from your post. 1. You somehow think rangers have ANY role in WvW. The pets and spirits they have are basically worthless in WvW. One thing that no one in the history of WvW has said is “Oh no it’s a ranger”, well maybe if it’s on their side :P 2. You’ve run with incredibly strict WvW groups or haven’t run in many current WvW groups. Mesmers can take whatever they want, survival is very much encouraged over utility as a dead mesmer has no utility. Portal bombs are pretty much a thing of the past and I might have seen 1 in the last 2 months and it ended with the bombers dead. Veil is something you can switch to right before you do a big zerg vs zerg battle and you can still run 2 useful utilities and 3 any other time. Mesmers in zerg combat are actually quite effective with chaos storm, feedback, and berserker illusions. Their condition cleanse AOE is pretty spiffy too in the condition heavy world.

What I do not understand is why they made mesmers with AI in the first place. I main a mesmer and have done so back in GW1. They are no where near the original Mesmer from Gw1. Mesmers in Gw1 had a place in PvP and an important one. It was alot of fun to play Mesmers 250 years ago, and took alot of skill, quick thinking, and high skill ceiling. Which alot of classes and builds lack. Returning the mesmer or taking the road back to mesmers from gw1 would be freaking awesome. AI should never been in this game. As it destroys the very thing Anet is trying to build up in PvP. Balance

Best blanket nerf would be to just get rid of body blocking on ethereal summons (clones, phantasms, spirit weapons and ranger spirits)

What I don’t understand is why on earth you would nerf a profession that is barely viable in the current spvp meta without compensating said profession in any way.

I asked 2 well known tournament Mesmer’s in this meta the same question:
“Why would you bring a Mesmer over a thief?”

The answers were:
“Thief is basically better.” and “I might have to go spirit ranger.”
“That’s the thing my team is struggling with at the moment.”

We can off course add Helseth’s rating of professions in tournaments:

1. Guardian
2. Warrior
3. Thief
4. Necromancer
5. Ranger
6. Engineer
7. Mesmer
8. Elementalist

Now Mesmers get a nerf that will hurt the tournament specs as well. Good Job A-net. Really good job. And then we have to wait 6 months for the next balance patch would be my guess.

Thedenofsin.7340:

They need to make the game easier to understand and harder to execute in order to get bigger in e-sports. Futball (Soccer) is the worlds most popular sport in large part because it follows the principals of being easy to understand and hard to execute.

In that case go play whatever FPS ? its simple like football.

IMHO, GW2 is actualy not interesting for esport :
Counter solutions are pretty crap ( blind – Weakness – cripple – chilled – immobilize ) they are that random and end that fast, that they are 80% of the time anecdotal
except knockdown, and knockback.
Confusion, except the confusion thief build.. that condition is just.. LOL

Interrupt ( daze ), without seeing foe skill launch bar like GW1, its pretty random, so you cant control what to shutdown when you really need it ( less strategic fights )

What left to that ? direct damage, condition damage, dodge, teleport, stealth, “random” boon spam, pretty hilarious combo to fake a teamplay
Fight are just more or less : the one that deal the more damage before his foe to kill it. /yawn.

The lack of mana usage like in GW1 is finaly more damaging for the gameplay than a good thing.
because :

• In GW2 a powerfull effect will only be balanced with a long cooldown
• In GW1 a powerfull effect can be balanced with high mana cost or long reload.
  So if you have a powerfull effect with high mana cost but fast reload, you can choose to spend more mana into that skill to help your team in a certain moment ( considering you have a autoregen of mana, and skills that allow you to gain mana under somes circunstances )

Its a bit similar as the thief initiative system, that offer more tactical choice. Even if the initiative regain traits are a bit .. bad… to have good control over the “active” regen

Also, to promote Esport, a spvp that only consist of cap altar, where the only “teamplay” is only who go where…

GW1 had a excelent Esport ( a bit wasted by the barbarian Anet skill destroyer update but well )
because : good skill mecanic ( curse, conditions, boons, various correct counter ) MANY possibles builds, demanding teamplay, and that was a real team play, each one a particular role for a good group synergy
Also, gvg / hoh / team arena was far more interesting than this poor gw2 spvp game…

anyways.. Anet could do something really great with GW2 ( since they made GW1 ).. but for the moment, they do not look ready to do that, and look to prefer a second-rate gameplay with too many broken mecanics

Distaste.4801:

selan.8354:

Furajir.3815:

Lmao @ mesmers saying they don’t have enough toys. hahaha

sais the guy that walks around with a zoo as spirit ranger or whatever u play. u clearly dont get what mes is about. ever been forced to use utilities? yeah welcome to the wvw mesmer! u are not allowed to trait or bring utilities that help u survive at least. u are required to bring veil,tw,portal and temportal curtain for pulls other than that u stand on the side and hope u tag something and also if u dont have veil u are useless and wont get to play in organized guilds ever.

I can glean two things from your post. 1. You somehow think rangers have ANY role in WvW. The pets and spirits they have are basically worthless in WvW. One thing that no one in the history of WvW has said is “Oh no it’s a ranger”, well maybe if it’s on their side :P 2. You’ve run with incredibly strict WvW groups or haven’t run in many current WvW groups. Mesmers can take whatever they want, survival is very much encouraged over utility as a dead mesmer has no utility. Portal bombs are pretty much a thing of the past and I might have seen 1 in the last 2 months and it ended with the bombers dead. Veil is something you can switch to right before you do a big zerg vs zerg battle and you can still run 2 useful utilities and 3 any other time. Mesmers in zerg combat are actually quite effective with chaos storm, feedback, and berserker illusions. Their condition cleanse AOE is pretty spiffy too in the condition heavy world.

never have i said rangers had a role in wvw. in multiple threads i actually mention rangers and that they need buffs in wvw. chaosstorm u kidding right? the rng in that skill is too much and dmg is quiet low. i dont even get half the dmg that i get with well of corruption on my necro. feedback:lol!what are u reflecting in the current meta? there are no rojectiles and most of the zergs ha mostly warriors in it with gs,hammer and sword/wh so your feedback is untraited just a bubble that does no dmg at all. if traited oh well we all know how awesome glamours are after the overnerf.
nullfield. lol again. the cd is very long and is nowhere near as useful as well of corruption. berserker. u are luck if it actually does 1 full attackchain on 5 targets. either it gets cc’ed, obstructed,out of range or goes poof before hitting due to the heavy aoe spam.
organized groups will always require veil and tw or veil and massinvis. noone will say we need more mes unlesss u are doing a portalchain for a massive golemrush. it is hard to find enough mesmers in wvw for a reason. who wants to be a veilbot?who wants to only be there for 1 utility and for the rest of the fight stand on the side and try to survive while trying to tag a few enemies.

I have been told by someone that the Deceptive Evasion change will count clones differently than the current system.

At the moment if I have 3 clones and Shatter they all run to target but I can spawn new clones before they reach their destination. I have been told that the changed Deceptive Evasion will not spawn new clones in this situation because it counts the circle indicators and does not use the current system of not counting clones sent to shatter regardless of the circle indicator count.

Please you must go back and look at this coding again and make it work as the old system did, this will really badly effect Shatter mesmers especially those who use Staff/GS as all their clones/phants tend to keep themselves at range to the target. If this change goes through without being looked at it will suverely damage the 1 Mesmer build which has a bit of honour to it – you said yourselves you wanted to stop the cheesey stuff.

I have been told by someone that the Deceptive Evasion change will count clones differently than the current system.

At the moment if I have 3 clones and Shatter they all run to target but I can spawn new clones before they reach their destination. I have been told that the changed Deceptive Evasion will not spawn new clones in this situation because it counts the circle indicators and does not use the current system of not counting clones sent to shatter regardless of the circle indicator count.

Please you must go back and look at this coding again and make it work as the old system did, this will really badly effect Shatter mesmers especially those who use Staff/GS as all their clones/phants tend to keep themselves at range to the target. If this change goes through without being looked at it will suverely damage the 1 Mesmer build which has a bit of honour to it – you said yourselves you wanted to stop the cheesey stuff.

Coulter.2315:

I have been told by someone that the Deceptive Evasion change will count clones differently than the current system.

At the moment if I have 3 clones and Shatter they all run to target but I can spawn new clones before they reach their destination. I have been told that the changed Deceptive Evasion will not spawn new clones in this situation because it counts the circle indicators and does not use the current system of not counting clones sent to shatter regardless of the circle indicator count.

Please you must go back and look at this coding again and make it work as the old system did, this will really badly effect Shatter mesmers especially those who use Staff/GS as all their clones/phants tend to keep themselves at range to the target. If this change goes through without being looked at it will suverely damage the 1 Mesmer build which has a bit of honour to it – you said yourselves you wanted to stop the cheesey stuff.

If this is true then imagine this:

Scenario 1:
You engage in a fight. You spawn your 3 clones and send them to shatter. Their target decides to kite your clones, which then will not shatter because they have not reached their target.

Another person pops into the fight and is able to cripple/immobilize/stun/fear you.
You cannot reach the kiting person and neither can your clones. You have no way of pressuring the second person because you have no dps.
You cannot spawn new clones.

Scenario 2:
After initiating a shatter, the person you are fighting decides to disengage. Your clones are following. In the meantime, a thief jumps you.

Your best defense against thieves are usually offense, which you now won’t have until your current clones are far enough away to be destroyed.

Truly amazing and well thought out change….

Reesha.7901:

Coulter.2315:

I have been told by someone that the Deceptive Evasion change will count clones differently than the current system.

At the moment if I have 3 clones and Shatter they all run to target but I can spawn new clones before they reach their destination. I have been told that the changed Deceptive Evasion will not spawn new clones in this situation because it counts the circle indicators and does not use the current system of not counting clones sent to shatter regardless of the circle indicator count.

Please you must go back and look at this coding again and make it work as the old system did, this will really badly effect Shatter mesmers especially those who use Staff/GS as all their clones/phants tend to keep themselves at range to the target. If this change goes through without being looked at it will suverely damage the 1 Mesmer build which has a bit of honour to it – you said yourselves you wanted to stop the cheesey stuff.

If this is true then imagine this:

Scenario 1:
You engage in a fight. You spawn your 3 clones and send them to shatter. Their target decides to kite your clones, which then will not shatter because they have not reached their target.

Another person pops into the fight and is able to cripple/immobilize/stun/fear you.
You cannot reach the kiting person and neither can your clones. You have no way of pressuring the second person because you have no dps.
You cannot spawn new clones.

Scenario 2:
After initiating a shatter, the person you are fighting decides to disengage. Your clones are following. In the meantime, a thief jumps you.

Your best offense against thieves are usually offense, which you now won’t have until your current clones are far enough away to be destroyed.

Truly amazing and well thought out change….

yep. the anet devs all play spvp only and then with warriors, see a mesmer, have trouble with the clones and think, hey lets nerf another core mechanic of the class. they already nerfed everything that was good about the mesmer, turned us into veilbots and ruined my gameplay soo much i ragequit mes and made a necro, where i can at least deal aoe dmg and be useful in zergs and noone is yelling at me where is the kitten VEIIIIIL.
they allow cc spam and immobilize stacking where u cant even react, but having a clone everytime u dodge is cheese..
and the way they talked about mes. ugh laughing and mocking the mesmers. sure in 2 yrs the mes will finally get a buff for wvw after suffering as a veilbot for month after month and being cced to death over and over…

selan.8354:

and the way they talked about mes. ugh laughing and mocking the mesmers. sure in 2 yrs the mes will finally get a buff for wvw after suffering as a veilbot for month after month and being cced to death over and over…

Yes. I rarely get angry but I was furious after watching that stream. They have made the wrong decisions and they think it is “funny” to deliver the message of a nerf, which they were unable to provide any valid arguments for either. Depressing to say at least.

EDIT: Maybe they should change the warrior skill instead. Let them have a “throw hammer” The hammer like clones should follow its target at normal run speed and if I kite it, then the warrior should be unable to do any significant dps.

No?
No of course not. All the developers play warriors and in that scenario, they would see the problem.

EDIT, EDIT: Yes, I am still angry and extremely disappointed in them.

Reesha.7901:

selan.8354:

and the way they talked about mes. ugh laughing and mocking the mesmers. sure in 2 yrs the mes will finally get a buff for wvw after suffering as a veilbot for month after month and being cced to death over and over…

Yes. I rarely get angry but I was furious after watching that stream. They have made the wrong decisions and they think it is “funny” to deliver the message of a nerf, which they were unable to provide any valid arguments for either. Depressing to say at least.

yeah the way they talked about mesmers was so disrespectful and unprofessional, that i lost all my faith in the balance team. i was always hoping the devs will focus once just once on the mesmer and fix the bugs, give us something new for wvw and tpvp so we are not just veilbots anymore. just once…but then the stream happened and i saw how much the devs dont wanna give the mesmer anything that could be strong. they rather nerf if we even dare to find a good build. probably also the reason why they nerfed glamours into the ground and then gave confusion to other classes that didnt even have to spec for it and get better results.

selan.8354:

yeah the way they talked about mesmers was so disrespectful and unprofessional, that i lost all my faith in the balance team. i was always hoping the devs will focus once just once on the mesmer and fix the bugs, give us something new for wvw and tpvp so we are not just veilbots anymore. just once…but then the stream happened and i saw how much the devs dont wanna give the mesmer anything that could be strong. they rather nerf if we even dare to find a good build. probably also the reason why they nerfed glamours into the ground and then gave confusion to other classes that didnt even have to spec for it and get better results.

I agree. I found them to be extremely disrespectful as well.

Besides that: A warrior told me he can get 10.500 damage from torment alone without having to spec into anything for it.

Teams run double warrior.

The few teams that run a Mesmer in tpvp have to babysit them and they are mainly there, because the players want to make them work, and because so many of the organized teams have quit playing which makes it possible.

Arena net then introduce a nerf to the profession that is barely viable. If they are unhappy about PU, they could have gone about it in so many different ways that would not have harmed the shatter Mesmer. Apparently, that was too much to hope for.

Some good impression at the follow link:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Alashya-on-Mesmer-Changes/first#post3518429

would love to see your feedback!!

The more I look into this, the more I don’t like it.

The main issue I have is using DE to spawn clones between yourself and a profession like Thief or Warrior melee bursting you, then activating Diversion to daze and peel them off. That won’t work anymore. Nor will you be able to generate clones around you to body-block against melee attacks, and even ranged projectiles.

More than that, if you have three illusions out, you’re losing all ability to confuse enemies by generating new clones around yourself, forcing you either to shatter your previous illusions unnecessarily, or just stay in the area that they are, essentially leaving yourself open to cleave and AoE spam. There are so many problems created by this change.

The Critical Infusion nerf is bad enough for a profession that relies on dodging to utilize their class mechanic. I really hope they reconsider this DE nerf. It’s honestly just a lazy solution to a single (clone death) build that’s going to negatively affect every other Mesmer build we have. Do something about the traits specific to the build you’re trying to alter. Don’t just blanket nerf everything like you did when you slaughtered confusion in an attempt to tone down Glamour builds in WvW.

This is all without even putting into consideration that Mesmers are not an issue in any game mode right now. They’re utility bots in WvW and PvE, and are barely even on the radar in tPvP. I have no idea where this is even coming from.

Could anyone having an opinion (one way or another) relating specifically to the perception that the ‘clone death’ builds & traits are too powerful please post your thoughts & findings here:

PvX MESMER Are clone death traits OP?

Since this was the reason given for the Deceptive Evasion nerf I think it’s important to really look into whether this is true or not, especially when proposing alternative solutions like nerfing those specific traits or builds.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Dont get me wrong, its a nerf, but it seems more a bug fix because DE was not “optimized” to work with some mesmer builds like phantasm. The other issue was it could lead to cheese builds. So they optimized DE.

OMG, please no, don’t tell me the cheesy cheese comments are gonna become a fad now, lol.

http://imgur.com/a/kryzw
(posted by Sorrow.7384)

Wasbunny.6531:

Could anyone having an opinion (one way or another) relating specifically to the perception that the ‘clone death’ builds & traits are too powerful please post your thoughts & findings here:

PvX MESMER Are clone death traits OP?

Since this was the reason given for the Deceptive Evasion nerf I think it’s important to really look into whether this is true or not, especially when proposing alternative solutions like nerfing those specific traits or builds.

well thing is not that de is op. it has been in the game since start. people just have to think before mindlessly killing clones. the simple fix would have been not makeing the clone that gets replaced deal dmg, but then again all this clonedeath builds dont deal dmg that fast anyways. they can kill u over time, but its not like a thief 4 shotting everyone.
and in wvw those condis deal like no dmg at all as the groups run mass condi cleanse.