Guild Wars 2

Slim.3024:

Deceptive Evasion as a trait is actually too strong without an ICD. Whether the mesmer is viable or not is up for debate and not really an argument, but the trait itself makes way too much of a difference and is too good compared to other options for most mesmer builds out there, not just clone on death.

This has usually been a good reason for designers to intervene and change it. A trait that adds so much to a class and is above all others not only in the trait line it rests in but all other trait lines as well for 20 points, I am genuinely surprised it hasn’t been changed since release.

Readin thoughs like this always make me lose any hope on human beings.

I think you are either a not playing mesmer or a new comer on mmo world.

In 12 years mmo playing i can say you there are 2 kind of trait\skill that everyone take:

1)Trait that makes you OP and makes you able to own on pvp

2)Trait that you take just cause you can’t play your class’ base mechaninc without.

Usually a good balance team nerf trait of 1st point (because it’s OP and you own with it)

And usually a good balance team just ADD the 2nd trait point to base mechanics of the classe (because people take that trait not to be OP ma just to be able to play the base mechanics of their classes).

Atm there are only 3 mesmer on top 100 ladder.

3 over 100 means 3% (and this game got 8 classes).

So it’s not required a great IQ to understand that 3% means that mesmer aren’t acutally OP and that they aren’t actually owning anything, regardless they have DE.

So DE fill point number 2.

DE don’t make us being OP.

We are just oblidged to take DE to play mesmer.

That means we aren’t on 1st case and DE do not require a nerf, we are on secondo option and on perfect world we’d need it like a base mechanics to allow more build diversity.

I know this won’t happens… But really the idea to put an internal cooldown on it win the prize of the stupiest idea i’ve ever read since gw2 release.

Do you really think that having 0 mesmer from 3% on top 100 ladder is a “good balance job”?

LOL

It should be better to think before write

“3 over 100 means 0,03% (and this game got 8 classes).”
Seriously no aelfwe you fail at math here. 3 at 100 means 3% not 0.03% still we all know that mesmers are in a horrible spot in sPvP at this moment and the nerf is hitting shatter builds a lot stronger than PU ones (expecially the GS + S/Torch build which will remain more or less the same).
What looks like is that they really wanted to nerf the condi bunker PU specc and the on-death condition application but they chose the worst possible way to do so.
Also lets not forget that vigor nerf is coming as well the next patch so only through vigor nerf the dodges would be reduced by 25%

I’m just going to reiterate what people have already said, for the sake of adding my 2 cents. I’ve been maining a Mesmer for over a year. The class was just so unique and fun. We had a pretty decent variety of builds, so you could change things up and still be considered viable in any aspect of the game. I feel as though we’ve seen nothing but nerfs to “balance” us, when all it’s really doing is destroying this class. You don’t want people playing passive builds? Well you’re pushing Mesmer into that direction with the Deceptive Evasion and Critical Infusion nerfs, as phantasm builds will reign supreme.

These nerfs don’t only affect PU builds, but also shatter and condition builds. You’re leaving us with very little to work with. It’s already hard enough trying to TPvP on Mesmer, now it will just be that much more difficult. You’re taking away a core part of being a Mesmer.

Darkstorn.5423:

“3 over 100 means 0,03% (and this game got 8 classes).”
Seriously no aelfwe you fail at math here. 3 at 100 means 3% not 0.03% still we all know that mesmers are in a horrible spot in sPvP at this moment and the nerf is hitting shatter builds a lot stronger than PU ones (expecially the GS + S/Torch build which will remain more or less the same).
What looks like is that they really wanted to nerf the condi bunker PU specc and the on-death condition application but they chose the worst possible way to do so.
Also lets not forget that vigor nerf is coming as well the next patch so only through vigor nerf the dodges would be reduced by 25%

yep sorry, it’s 3% gonna edit it.

And i was saying exactly the same things are you saying.

We need DE to play.

Nerf DE is killing shatter mesmer

How did mesmers once again become the major problem in the game? This is ridiculous. So sick of having to change my build every time some other class whines that it’s too OP. Well, it’s not. How often do you EVER hear about ANY group wanting more than one mesmer, if they even want one? 3 in the top 100? 3% out of what should be, if it was truly even, 12.5%. And generally the only reason a mesmer is ever even wanted is because we’ve had to find bugs and glitches to make ourselves viable in any form of play.

What do mesmers have left? There’s no class diversity because you constantly force us into what you deem necessary as a class.

I’ve also heard countless times that “mesmers broke the game” and I don’t doubt that’s true, but that’s because you are forcing us to find ways to play a class and make it viable while you do your best to destroy it.

And even after all of this, warriors are STILL not getting any kind of valid nerf to the zerk meta, it’s just getting reworded into ferocity….So while people are complaining about zerk warriors, you’re nerfing a dying class and just changing the name of critical damage to ferocity for warriors…

I wonder how long until we have to find a new exploit to make ourselves useful once again..

-Twyzted

Lol, they nerfed a build they consider Cheesy (not because of how effective it is) … and yet they still allow super health regen, hyper mobile, warriors run around. They nerfed Elementalist RTL into the ground, but Nike warriors can do whatever they want.

Let me get this straight … Mesmers you can just choose to walk away from = bad, but warriors that can at any time walk away from you = ok. Got it …

It is total hypocrisy.

The best shatter mesmers I know of have said to avoid replacing clones because you’re wasting shatter ability / DPS.

I guess they know something most of you don’t.

This isn’t some “major nerf” there are just a couple specific scenarios that this will actually matter, and in those situations there are alternative tactics that you guys would all be completely used to by now if this skill always worked this way. So get used to it – unless you think complaining might make Anet reconsider. It’s possible, but you’ll do much better to explain specifically what it’s taking away than to turn it into some sort of favoritism claim of Anet petting their warriors while the mesmers starve….. that just makes me lol

The reason for this change (at least I believe it to be) is that you can keep dodging to make clones while the others are exploding and throwing conditions on you. In other words, whenever someone is trying to get rid of clones in a fight they are just endlessly coming out and endlessly exploding on you. You really can’t get rid of them. I’m interested to see what change they are going to make that doesn’t ruin the shatter builds.

If the reasoning is Crippling Dissipation, Confusing Combatants, and Debilitating Dissipation (or some combination thereof) trait builds, why not just add an internal cooldown on illusion explosions (or option 2, make these traits weaker)?

There needs to be some explanation behind the proposed change …

Carighan.6758:

Jackums.3496:

How is altering a trait that almost every build uses a better way at handling the issue as opposed to altering the single trait specific to the single build that’s the “problem”?

• Really strong trait
• Already really weak trait

Which would you nerf?

Except this is completely inaccurate. Deceptive Evasion on its own offers almost nothing in the way of damage. DE fuels Debilitating Dissipation, but the latter is the one producing the “excessive” damage and therefore the problem.

If your options are:

1. Nerf Deceptive Evasion, thereby causing a plethora of problems for various other builds that will then need to be extensively altered to make them viable again.
2. Nerf Debilitating Dissipation and solve the single problem in question without affecting any other builds in the process.

There’s no logical reasoning you can come up with that the first option is the best for the health of the profession and its place in PvP right now. You’re using this recent issue with clone-death builds to further your own agenda of overhauling our class. It’s not the time or place. Your proposed solution is counterproductive to what the devs are trying to achieve with this patch, which is toning down the cheese condi clone builds.

all i want is mes to be back to his old glory where zergs actually had to think twice if they wanted to fight an organized mesmer heavy guild. nowadays they will laugh if they see a lot of mesmers in a zerg. all that counts is how many heavys u got.
i want my mesmer to have some aoe ability that can actually be a threat the same way as 1 hammer warrior is a threat with all his cc and dps.

a mesmer aoe without ai like glamour was…something like hexes were in gw1. it is so boring to be either a utility bot /rallybot that can only contribute veil or stuck with roaming and wvw is not about roaming, its about epic battles and thats the reason i play it. and my mesmer used to be part of those battles…now all i can do is stealth and speed up a zerg, hide in a keep and portal, portal golems and maybe rip a few boons and thats it.
i do have some more builds in spvp, but even there im more and more limited due to heavy cc, heavy condis and the whole zooo u gotta fight

er, please buff veil!

Thank you.

Addressing the absurdly powerful PU clone death builds by reworking DE is still silly.
At least, that’s where I think this change is coming from, outside of PU builds on death traits aren’t exactly what I would call great.

All this will achieve is shoehorning Mesmer players into 1-2 METAGAEM builds even harder than they are already.

Using DE offensively is a great risk/reward mechanic, you give up dodges for extra offensive power.
It promotes active, skilful and thoughtful play from a Mesmer.

If anything needs a rework, its PU and stealth in general.
Being able to spam stealth, farting loads of boons on yourself and laying on conditions without breaking stealth and lay revealed on yourself is not skilful play, as much as many of the PU players here would like to claim.

I have not seen a Mesmer that isn’t me running anything but a PU variant build in months.
Its not fun to watch, its not fun to fight and I cant really see how it would be fun to play.

Roaming in WvW these days is basically:
Fighting 4 PU Mesmers Simulator 2012: Occasional P/D Thief Edition.

I just cant wrap my head around the logic behind these proposed changes.

clipnotdone.9634:

Using DE offensively is a great risk/reward mechanic, you give up dodges for extra offensive power.
It promotes active, skilful and thoughtful play from a Mesmer.

Yes and no. Creating a clone when dodging backwards away from your target means that single target projectile skills are blocked by the clone. This gives you a larger margin of error to avoid skills like throw bolas, overcharged shot, point blank shot, spectral grasp, scorpion wire etc – you can dodge considerably before the shot would have hit and still avoid the attack.

In addition both diversion and distortion can both be used defensively as well as offensively so it’s a bit more complicated than just swapping dodges for damage.

As I wrote on the mesmer forum, I’ll agree that PU is a problem when I see PU mesmers dominating the PvP leaderboards, running in quantity in WvW zergs, or being requested for dungeon runs. Not one of those things happens now, not even close.

The griping about PU is just like the griping about thieves. Which boils down to griping about stealth. Well, stealth is a part of the game, and you’ll have to learn to deal with it. Don’t like it? Well I don’t like CC effects, and I have to deal with those.

While we’re discussing how and how badly to nerf mesmers, there’s a thread on the mesmer forum where some pretty good tPvP players are lamenting having to choose between what they want to play (mesmer) and what they think they need to play in order to help their team (warrior).

THAT is the reality of the current situation, yet Arenanet is proposing massive nerfs to core mesmer mechanics while “gently adjusting” the UberProfession. It makes no sense at all.

This change reminds me of other weird changes/nerfs:
Dhumfire too strong! Lets their bleeds!
S/D thieves are evadeing too much! Lets nerf their port out ability(#2)
Warrior needing less clunky weapons and abit more sustain(hambow was perfectly viable before healing signet got buffed btw), lets add cleansing ire+zerker stance+buff healing signet+ buff zerker stance.

Qaelyn.7612:

As I wrote on the mesmer forum, I’ll agree that PU is a problem when I see PU mesmers dominating the PvP leaderboards, running in quantity in WvW zergs, or being requested for dungeon runs. Not one of those things happens now, not even close.

That’s a rather silly way to look at things.
I’m not saying it needs to be nerfed into oblivion, but PU is clearly to strong right now, its basically the top dog roaming build and you’d be pretty hard pressed to convince folkes otherwise.

This isnt baaaaw stealth2hard, the fact is, you can remain in stealth, lay conditions while gaining a bunch of great defensive boons with very little effort.
Or you can run zerkers on it, poop phantasms and get reasonable damage with very little chance for retaliation from your opponent.
Either way, it’s low risk, high reward.
The fact that almost every Mesmer in WvW is running it should speak for itself.

This game needs less cheesy easymodo builds, they are bad for the game.

I am absolutely fine with PU the way it is now (coming from a non-PU user).

Yes, it is low risk, high reward at the moment but consider the last time you died to a PU mesmer… was it from conditions on clone death and phantasm damage?

My guess is that most of you would probably say yes. From my experience, I find myself dying to PU mesmers only because I made the mistake of taking the clone death conditions in the face as I use Blurred Frenzy on their clones while they stealth away. This is where I think, the PU mesmer’s weakness lies (at least for sPVP/tPVP). PU mesmers will almost always need another person to cap a point for them/will take too long to cap a point and that makes the PU build a less attractive build in tPVP.

For those that think PU is too OP in WvW roaming,/hotjoins consider the mesmer class as a whole. If you get hit hard by a PU mesmer in a 1v1, remember that you are fighting a class that was designed to specialize in trickery and duels. The problem is not because they are able to stealth away as thieves do, but because they are able to deal massive damage WHILE in stealth as opposed to thieves which only deal massive damage by getting themselves revealed. This is where I think changes need to be made. As Countless had said before in another thread, there are simple ways in which this whole thing can be balanced:

1. Make conditions from clone death blockable.
2. Rework vigor so that one cannot just simply dodge, create clones, wait for clones to die and spam condition while in stealth.

That said, I still find PU not as fun to play as it only forces me to take up stealthing skills such as Torch 4 and Decoy when there are so many other possibilities for a more exciting gameplay

What I don’t get is why they keep on nerfing the wrong things and buffing the wrong things.
Stop buffing roaming skills, stop buffing cheesy builds, stop nerfing skilled builds

PU was fun for a month or 2, now with nerf after nerf on other builds besides PU, it wont be long till PU is just as elementalist with EA, being a must-have trait.

-Nerf PU
-Rework our utility’s that are useless now such as mantra’s and mimic
-Buff aoe lockdowns such as chaos storm. The CS bug sure was a little bit strong, but far from OP. Incredible how 1 bug caused mesmer to be slightly viable in tpvp and raid again, whereas you just insta-fix that bug instead of fixing iwarden first.
-Make a rework on focus. Imo Iwarden needs a full rework and the pull cooldown should be reduced to 0.5sec. 1 second is too long.

Maybe focus on that kitten first before you gonna touch more traits that have no use to be nerfed. Just like the sword, you just random nerf it. Why? Because everyone uses it? Maybe focus on making other weapons viable then instead of nerfing the weapon skills. I find staff a very weak weapon for mesmer atm. Chaos storm is a joke, if you get dazed or stunned by that you’re really unlucky. It’s like what? 20% chance to proceed 1 sec daze? And you need a grandmaster trait to make that 50% chance for 1 sec stun?

Pathetic, warriors with more lockdown than mesmers. What was mesmer supposed to be in this game? A 2nd thief? Because that’s what mesmer is becoming…

BlackDevil.9268:

Chaos storm is a joke, if you get dazed or stunned by that you’re really unlucky. It’s like what? 20% chance to proceed 1 sec daze? And you need a grandmaster trait to make that 50% chance for 1 sec stun?

Pathetic, warriors with more lockdown than mesmers. What was mesmer supposed to be in this game? A 2nd thief? Because that’s what mesmer is becoming…

^This. Especially true in wvw zerg fights. The “bugged” Chaos Storm acted as a secondary Static Field but with the nerf, it just tickles people, both in PVP and WVW.

I find it hilarious that in a game that has had the “cheesy” pistol/dagger condition thief build since release that it’s because Mesmers can have the exact same gameplay experience (I play both) that its all of a sudden an issue.

The only problem with PU is that it grants Regen in a line that grants Protection whenever you gain Regen. So in effect, PU grants a random chance of Regen+Protection, Protection, or Aegis. A 66% chance of Protection is a bit silly and I believe they should replace the Regen with Vigor.

Only people that stick around to engage a PU mesmer (or P/D thief) are at risk of dieing to one. You have the option to walk away whenever you want.

clipnotdone.9634:

The fact that almost every Mesmer in WvW is running it should speak for itself.

That’s not a fact, it’s an assertion. And even if true, it is countered by the fact that just very few people play mesmer at all in WvW.

What are they playing? Mostly warrior, with some guardian. So naturally we leave those classes alone and nerf mesmers?

Then there’s PvP, where hardly any top players run mesmer, and those that do usually don’t run PU.

And then there’s PvE, where PU mesmers are basically useless.

This is NOT something that needs to be fixed. What needs to be fixed are all the problems that lead to so few playing mesmer in general.

clipnotdone.9634:

That’s a rather silly way to look at things.
I’m not saying it needs to be nerfed into oblivion, but PU is clearly to strong right now, its basically the top dog roaming build and you’d be pretty hard pressed to convince folkes otherwise.

Either way, it’s low risk, high reward.
The fact that almost every Mesmer in WvW is running it should speak for itself.

This game needs less cheesy easymodo builds, they are bad for the game.

False.

I pretty much only solo roam and I haven’t run with PU in 4 months. There’s plenty like me and – if anything – I see less and less PU Condi roamers as they’ve realised that they can’t kill anything if people choose to disengage, which is incredibly easy to do in WvW.

BlackDevil.9268:

What I don’t get is why they keep on nerfing the wrong things and buffing the wrong things.
Stop buffing roaming skills, stop buffing cheesy builds, stop nerfing skilled builds

PU was fun for a month or 2, now with nerf after nerf on other builds besides PU, it wont be long till PU is just as elementalist with EA, being a must-have trait.

-Nerf PU
-Rework our utility’s that are useless now such as mantra’s and mimic
-Buff aoe lockdowns such as chaos storm. The CS bug sure was a little bit strong, but far from OP. Incredible how 1 bug caused mesmer to be slightly viable in tpvp and raid again, whereas you just insta-fix that bug instead of fixing iwarden first.
-Make a rework on focus. Imo Iwarden needs a full rework and the pull cooldown should be reduced to 0.5sec. 1 second is too long.

Maybe focus on that kitten first before you gonna touch more traits that have no use to be nerfed. Just like the sword, you just random nerf it. Why? Because everyone uses it? Maybe focus on making other weapons viable then instead of nerfing the weapon skills. I find staff a very weak weapon for mesmer atm. Chaos storm is a joke, if you get dazed or stunned by that you’re really unlucky. It’s like what? 20% chance to proceed 1 sec daze? And you need a grandmaster trait to make that 50% chance for 1 sec stun?

Pathetic, warriors with more lockdown than mesmers. What was mesmer supposed to be in this game? A 2nd thief? Because that’s what mesmer is becoming…

I think this post has many valid arguments.

I too find it slightly odd that the developers did not look into why so many Mesmers run PU. Considering this is one of the only builds that has been seeing buffs, it really shouldn’t be surprising.

Where are the changes to the builds that could really use some love?
Shatter has been nerfed in the past while other professions got buffed, so has many of the none condition weapons such as sword and focus.

Mesmers are still the underdogs in tpvp. A thief can easily train them down and kill them, a well-known tactic, because is it extremely effective and very easy for the thief to shut the Mesmer down.

If this is not problematic, considering a Mesmer and a thief compete for pretty much the same role on a team, then I don’t know what is.

Before the bug fix to Confounding Suggestions, at least people had to think twice when the Mesmer arrived. The Mesmer had some real pressure and defense through the Chaos Storm. It was hardly balanced, but after the bug fix, the grandmaster trait became useless again.

This alone leaves the Mesmer at a state where they are not welcomed on a tpvp team. Another class will be a better choice.

Now Mesmers can look forward to a balance patch, that will bring nothing to help the shatter or lockdown mesmer, but only reduce their viability even further.

Wasbunny.6531:

[…]

So I did a simple side by side comparison between Mesmer & Thief using only ‘on-dodge’ traits (Deceptive Evasion & Caltrops) and only dodging to kill a moving target golem.

Mesmer: About 3-5 stacks of bleed 100% up-time (90% from auto-attacking clones). Very rarely a few seconds of Cripple,Vulnerability or Weakness.

Thief : 4 stacks of bleed 100% up-time. 45+ seconds of cripple.
also 2-4 stacks of might gained as well as swiftness and endurance regeneration

[…]

Sry, but this is Bullkitten.

Caltrops add max ~20secs of cripple.
10s (while the duration) + ~10sec (through the last hit at the end of the skill).
Test it, if you don believe me.

Also is caltrops easy to see, because the big red circle on the ground and can used only one time every 30secs. This make the cripple effect weak and easy to dodge.

Why are we comparing dodge-caltrops, a PBAE ground field applying per second, with Deceptive Evasion, a clone-generator on dodge.

I mean, why again?

We’re comparing apples to coffee cups.

Before we all start asking for a nerf to any of the Mesmer ‘on-dodge’ traits (DE + clone death) by making them uniquely blockable or whatever we must find out if they are really overpowered in the first place.

You need to find out how much something is before stating it’s too much.
Sorry to sound like a broken record, I’m really more reminding the devs than anyone else.

Test:
So I did a simple side by side comparison test between Mesmer & Thief using only ‘on-dodge’ traits (Deceptive Evasion vs Uncatchable) and only dodging to kill a moving target golem.

All ‘clone death’ traits & DE taken by the Mesmer and all ‘on dodge’ traits taken by the Thief.

Results:
Mesmer: About 3-5 stacks of bleed 100% up-time (90% from auto-attacking clones). Very rarely a few seconds of Cripple, 1 stack of Confusion, Vulnerability or Weakness.

Thief : 4 stacks of bleed 100% up-time. 45+ seconds of cripple (continually stacking).
also 2-4 stacks of might gained as well as swiftness, endurance regeneration & condition removal

Conclusion:
If anyone can seriously look at those two examples and arrive at the conclusion that the Mesmer is in need of having their ‘on-dodge’ traits nerfed in any way for the sake of balance…then I just don’t know what else to say.

This is not a theory. This was an actual test that anyone with a Mesmer and a Thief can do for themselves in 5 minutes. I encourage anyone who is genuinely curious as to if these traits are overpowered to try it out, it’s actually quite funny.

This was unrealistically best case scenario too, since I was chasing a slow moving golem running in circles and would hope that any actual player would take even less damage from these traits, by both classes.

Please make a special note that 90% of the bleeds supplied by the Mesmer in this test are coming from the clones auto-attacking (Sharper Images trait).

The real conditions supplied by all 3 traits to a moving target is closer to 0 than to 1.
So once again, before anyone says they are in need of a nerf please:

• Explain why you feel 0-1 stack of bleed for a 45 point investment is OP or
• Do the test yourself and show how my numbers are wrong.

I made some minor clarifications to the above (Caltrops should have been Uncatchable). I’ve been trying to make these tests as clear to understand as possible but in reality it’s far simpler to just run the test yourself. It’s really the first and most crucial step before making any assertions about relative balance.

Should be noted I’m not finding there to be anything OP with any thief traits. I’m also concluding it’s hard to logically defend the argument that the clone death traits, when taken with DE are overly powerful and require a nerf based on these results.

EDIT: I realize facts are usually less interesting than speculation but if anyone wants to see the results of my other two tests I’ve been compiling them here.

PvX MESMER Are clone death traits OP?

Qaelyn.7612:

What are they playing? Mostly warrior, with some guardian. So naturally we leave those classes alone and nerf mesmers?

Then there’s PvP, where hardly any top players run mesmer, and those that do usually don’t run PU.

And then there’s PvE, where PU mesmers are basically useless.

This is NOT something that needs to be fixed. What needs to be fixed are all the problems that lead to so few playing mesmer in general.

I’m not going to sit here and say PU is the most pressing balance issue in the game right now, because you are right, its far from it.

It doesn’t work in spvp because you cant contest points in stealth.
Mesmers take spots in teams for utility, not for damage or support, other classes fill those roles much more efficiently, not that a Mesmer cant forfill those roles, there are simply better options.

PVE is PVE.
Zerkers, stand on wall, Treasures of the Deeps.

It doesn’t have to be OP across the board to be a problem, and simply ignoring what’s actually wrong with the class and nerfing everything else isn’t going to help anybody.

Marsares.2053:

I pretty much only solo roam and I haven’t run with PU in 4 months. There’s plenty like me and – if anything – I see less and less PU Condi roamers as they’ve realised that they can’t kill anything if people choose to disengage, which is incredibly easy to do in WvW.

The vast majority of my playtime in GW2 is solo and <5man roaming and I literally have not seen a single non PU Mes in months.
At the end of the day, its still our personal experience, but do you really want to try and argue to me, or anyone for that matter, that PU builds aren’t some of the strongest roaming builds around?

Don’t forget you can always run a power oriented PU build, its not just the on death condi builds that work, since you spend almost most of fights in stealth with protection and Aegis its very viable to run a power PU build in full zerkers with little to no consequence.

That is why this trait is to strong right now.

Forgot to point out the reason why I’m even fighting to have these ‘on clone death’ traits spared from the nerf bat at all. If they are so weak, why even bother taken them or making a fuss about a proposed nerf at all?

It’s been shown that in PvP all three traits when taken with DE amount to an average of 0-1 stacks of bleed and a very rare occurrence of a short Cripple, Confusion, Vulnerability or Weakness, and only if the player happens to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. So the combination of these traits and DE have almost no effect in PvP against an even marginally good player.

The strength of these traits only comes into play when there is a large group of slow moving targets grouped closely together, something that only consistently happens in PvE. So the 3 clone death traits when taken with DE add at least a marginal amount of condition damage in PvE for Condition Mesmers.

This is due mainly to their AoE effects and the fact that most mobs stay close together and are slow moving, allowing for more chances to be near the oldest clone being overwritten. Any stationary target (boss) is also more likely to receive the full amount of the possible conditions, still not very much but it helps. So ‘on clone death’ traits when taken with DE as it is right now is only effective in PvE, and only slightly at that.

I happen to be one of the rare Condition Mesmers who enjoy this play-style in PvE, even though I know it’s not ‘optimal’ by any stretch of the imagination. I actually like how ‘non-viable’ Condition Mesmers and Confusion are in PvE since it makes me work extra hard to take advantage of each and every condition I can apply in order to even maintain a ‘sub-optimal’ amount of DPS.

This proposed change would effectively change my ‘sub-optimal’ build to ‘sub-possible’.