Guild Wars 2

With a nerf to Deceptive Evasion and maybe also the clone generation through the scepter’s autochain a mesmer will no longer be able to insanely spam the on-death-traits of his clones which is a great step in the right direction

As said in the livestream the intention is to not be able to do so with the dissipation of clones. What if you wouldn’t nerf our clone generation but these traits?

A really important thing is to not nerf Deceptive Evasion since it’s really important for most of the mesmer’s builds.
For example:

• a shatterbuild won’t be able to deliver the dodge->shatter if 3 illusions are up.
• a clone that hit’s the wrong targed can’t be replaced fast enough.

Sorrow.7384:

I made this to clearly explain issues with not being able to replace illusions:

http://imgur.com/a/kryzw

The devs obviously have the same opinion (except the thing that their solution is to nerf the clone generation). But also these traits are far too weak as they are right now to suffer to a nerf like that.

The thing is that it should be the enemy’s fault to have clones / phantasms killed. After such a nerf it will be harder for the mesmer to get his clones destroyed by his opponent so also the reward for that should be mutch greater then it is right now.
This would make the mesmer to be more focused on his enemy’s actions and would make the enemy to care more for the clones (being aware not to kill them)

Right now the on death traits are bound to clones what makes the clone generation so important. What would happen if they’d change it to affect phantasms too? I think it’d be a great buff that would us allow to use phantasms more effective in the death builds.

Well most of you will think that this still isn’t enough for the balance, so now suggestions for the on death traits:

All traits:

• do now affect phantasms as well
• do only trigger when the illusion is killed by damage (raw/cond)

Crippling Dissipation:

• Add a fact that killed phantasms will chill 1 second instead of crippling the enemy

Debilitation Dissipation

• Change conditions to:
  100% chance to inflict 3 stacks of bleed (5s)
  33% chance to cause weakness (3s)
  33% chance to cause burn (3s)
  33% chance to cause 3 stacks of vulnerability (5s)
• Phantasms additionally have a 100% chance to cause poison (4s)

Confusing Combatants

• killed phantasms will inflict 2 stacks of confusion (5s)

Debilitation Dissipation
Change conditions to:
100% chance to inflict 3 stacks of bleed (5s)
33% chance to cause weakness (3s)
33% chance to cause burn (3s)
33% chance to cause 3 stacks of vulnerability (5s)
Phantasms additionally have a 100% chance to cause poison (4s)

^ i dun mind these buff. but poison on a mesmer? does not kinda fit well with mesmer pink purple theme.

what if replace poison with torment or confusion?

also make it a chance to activate all 4 conditions. or would it be too powerful? O_O

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Debilitation Dissipation
Change conditions to:
100% chance to inflict 3 stacks of bleed (5s)
33% chance to cause weakness (3s)
33% chance to cause burn (3s)
33% chance to cause 3 stacks of vulnerability (5s)
Phantasms additionally have a 100% chance to cause poison (4s)

^ i dun mind these buff. but poison on a mesmer? does not kinda fit well with mesmer pink purple theme.

what if replace poison with torment or confusion?

also make it a chance to activate all 4 conditions. or would it be too powerful? O_O

I also thought of confusion and torment instead of poison but i think that’d be far too powerful.

Why not confusion?
Because confusion is already included with Confusing Combatants.

Why not torment?
This would make it to inflict at least 3 stacks bleed and x stacks torment on a phantasms’ death what is just insane.
x=1-3

All conditions were ok when the chance to get this effect were 0.5% :> -> No it’d be OP

no, ‘on death’ traits should stick with clones, because there is need for counterplay. You can counter phantasm by killing them , you can counter ‘on death’ by not killing them (confusing combatant,staff clones and sharper images are a problem but not that big). If you were to combine phantasm with strong ‘on death’ traits they would be almost impossible to counter since you would have to kill them and not kill them at the same time.

But then they mustn’t nerf the clone generation since these builds are bound to that.
If they were to leave the generation like it is atm then i’d agree with not taking phantasms for the traits.

The reason is that every phantasm will keep an illusionslot occupied.

The on death traits are not overpowered in any way so they certainly do not need a nerf. And this change will definitely break pure on death builds which is sad. However, wether you agree or not, it appears to be a design decision of ANet. Then it would not be about trait balance or being fair by offering a compensation for the incomming changes. It is about what they envision.

There is a dev post floating around regarding the previewed DE nerf which also mentions clone generation of the scepter. This specific post makes me assume two things:

• ANet doesn’t want Mesmers to actively cause a clones death (besides shatter)
• ANet doesn’t want on death traits to be used actively either

If this change actually is a design decision they won’t buff those traits because it implicates they want them to be complementary and not build defining. Making phantasms be affected by the traits will make certain phantasm (or stealth) heavy builds too strong because there is no way to counter them anymore. You also have to keep in mind that we are talking about Adept traits. I could see Vulnerability being removed from Debilitating Dissipation and the Confusion stacks being increased on Confusing Combatants though. Your other suggestions not so much…

Me Games Ma.8426:

But then they mustn’t nerf the clone generation since these builds are bound to that.
If they were to leave the generation like it is atm then i’d agree with not taking phantasms for the traits.

The reason is that every phantasm will keep an illusionslot occupied.

Now this is not true. If you had DE and had two phantasms out you always only had ONE clone at a time. The clone generation does not change virtually because you will remain at 3 active illusions as it is now. Of course, the trait won’t trigger anymore.

Like I already said I agree with the devs to change the traits so that mesmers are not able to spam clonedeaths. But also this will nerf the death traits very hard so they could buff them to make them viable for mesmers who can actually place clones that will definetly die from their enemys attacks.

There is a dev post floating around regarding the previewed DE nerf which also mentions clone generation of the scepter. This specific post makes me assume two things:

• ANet doesn’t want Mesmers to actively cause a clones death (besides shatter)
• ANet doesn’t want on death traits to be used actively either

This is exactly what I was refering to when i wrote “As said in the livestream the intention is to not be able to do so with the dissipation of clones. What if you wouldn’t nerf our clone generation but these traits?”

Also what Sorrow.7384 shows with the pictures: They shouldn’t touch DE or the scepter but the traits themselves.

Xaylin.1860:

Now this is not true. If you had DE and had two phantasms out you always only had ONE clone at a time. The clone generation does not change virtually because you will remain at 3 active illusions as it is now. Of course, the trait won’t trigger anymore.

I think you’re getting me wrong there. I do not dislike the fact that I will not be able to trigger the dissipation triats on my own by destroying my clones but that I won’t be able to replace them as I like.
Take a look at the pictures below:

1. Situation
2. What it is like
3. What it will be like
4. What I want it to be like

Here’s the problem. Right now mesmers have three really build archetypes: Phantasms, Shatter, and Clone-Death (whether the devs admit it or not). By mucking with DE and mesmer-initiated clone deaths, nearly a third of mesmer playstle is neutered. And besides, aside from trolly blackwater builds (which is a stealth/boons issue), since when are clone death builds a problem?

Wow, I had always assumed phantasms already procc’ed Debilitating Dissipation & Crippling Dissipation. Just tested it out and you’re right, they don’t. Didn’t think it was possible but these dissipation traits are even weaker than I thought. Thanks for clearing that up for me Me Games Ma.

I would ask though that before you make hyperbolic statements like “insanely spam the on-death-traits of his clones” part of your central argument, please supply actual numbers derived from testing those traits on a moving target. I’ve posted the results of my tests too many times to do it again here but they are far from what you are describing.

Me Games Ma.8426:

Like I already said I agree with the devs to change the traits so that mesmers are not able to spam clonedeaths. But also this will nerf the death traits very hard so they could buff them to make them viable for mesmers who can actually place clones that will definetly die from their enemys attacks.

It is not about spamming the trait. It is about actively triggering it by replacing clones. There is a difference. Obviously the devs would be fine with spamming the traits as long as enemies actually kill the clones.

The benefit when placing a clone correctly so that an enemy kills it will remain the same. So how is this an argument for buffing the traits? I really do not get it.

Me Games Ma.8426:

I think you’re getting me wrong there. I do not dislike the fact that I will not be able to trigger the dissipation triats on my own by destroying my clones but that I won’t be able to replace them as I like.

Take a look at the pictures below.

From a gameplay/balance perspective you are mixing two issues

• Clone positioning if the DE change actually happened
• Balancing the on death traits

I was talking about buffing or nerfing the traits in the scenario of DE and Sc#1 not triggering the traits. The clone positioning issue itself is totally unrelated to the on death traits although both are influenced by DE.

Me Games Ma.8426:

Also what Sorrow.7384 shows with the pictures: They shouldn’t touch DE or the scepter but the traits themselves.

And how should they reasonably do that? The issue with the on death traits evolves around creating new clones through DE and Sc#1. While they should not nerf the clone regeneration itself, those are the skills/traits which have to change since they trigger the on death traits.

The fact is the scepter #1 AA is only useful when combined with the clone death traits to any build other than shatter. Take away that and scepter #1 does a Condition or Phantasm Mesmer no good at all.

And once again if you actually look at the dissipation traits in practice (by testing on a moving target golem for instance) you’ll quickly see how lackluster they really are.

On death effects are very weak as they are, the CC is the only good part. The trouble with nerfing them in the way the devs want to is that it’ll basically make the traits useless against the classes/builds that they can actually harm (ranged/kiters/single target/non melee aoe spam etc), and against those classes/builds that would actually be killing clones and proccing the effects on themselves (cleaving melee types where the change wont make a difference anyway due to the clone attrition rate) they’re utterly useless.

Case in point, two melee spam warriors going to town not caring one way or the other about clones dying
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PrPVEPFlEA&feature=youtu.be

As for the phantasms not dealing poison due to it not “fitting the class theme”, if traited I don’t see a problem. Warriors get access to confusion if traited, and necro’s burning.

The argument though was that killing phantasms was tantamount to counterplay, and I agree there needs to be counterplay. Which is why phantasms are so squishy and easy to kill anyway. They also have long CD’s, so summoning them doesnt happen every second. That said, I see no problem with there being more counterplay to counterplay, thus poison on phantasm death is a solid idea.

Here’s an example of an iWarden being summoned, mesmer withdraws behind the phantasm to which the warrior turns around and proceeds to burst it. iWarden managed to deal a whopping 500 damage (and maybe some bleeds). So I’m all for counterplay, but a counter to a counter is more layers and overall depth to a game. Heaven forbid the warrior should have to do a counter to the counter to the counter, pull out a ranged weapon, and kill the phantasm from a distance between its attacks just to avoid the mesmers counter to the warriors counter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QnRg6M56ABw#t=81

@ Wasbunny:
Sorry for not supporting my statements with tests but I’m talking about the senario when you fight a real person on the capturepoint. Tests with this senario would be based on skill what’s not a reliable value.
Also you won’t ever fight only using these traits. You will use your attacks as well.

@ Xaylin:

The benefit when placing a clone correctly so that an enemy kills it will remain the same. So how is this an argument for buffing the traits? I really do not get it.

Sorry again… I should have explained this. In my opinion a good player should get something in exchange for a nerf which affects the gameplay as this one. A mesmer who knows how to place his illusions should be better as a player thats gameplay depends on luck.
(this is just an opinion so deal with it… or convince me )

Xaylin.1860:

From a gameplay/balance perspective you are mixing two issues

• Clone positioning if the DE change actually happened
• Balancing the on death traits

Yeah I’m mixing up things — the same thing as the devs do. They are nerfing dissipations by changing DE and Scepter-AA, what they shouldn’t be doing because DE is too important for our illusion positioning.

With this thread I want to show that they should change something with the dissipations – but they shouldn’t touch our clone generation. It’s good as it is right now.

@ Ross Biddle:
I like the counter – counter – counter thing :>