Guild Wars 2

So everyone tells me mesmer phantasm gets to scale with both power and critical damage.

Can someone explain me why the 3 phantasm spammer wich multi hit cause tons of condition damage from pistol unload etc gets to have his summon scale with critical damage and power on a spec wich runs on survivability (inspiration) yet the enginer turret and the ranger pet dont? If this is Anet idea of a pet balance id like to hear their actual reason why an actual tri-illusion spam can hit harder then a creature of flesh and bone wich is the ranger main mechanic?

While the excuse of it doing its huge damage by interval is somewhat fine the fact that you got 3 of them doing it makes all other pet based class look crappy

zerker in the mist: 3k damage with zerk amulet
Duelist in the mist: about 3k damage long range
Phantasmal defender: best damage total of all 3 but its somewhat weaker because of its attack interlude
Sword phantasm: best single hit striker, it can hit around 3 to 4k

Consider the fact the mesmer can have 3 of these wich attack about every 7 second or less, you just stacked a good 12+ bleed as well as a fairly high amount of damage from a pet team. Now lets look at the ranger pet

1. Damage dead unless traited while mesmer phantasm remain strong prety much at all time.
2. Unlike the phantasm wich can be spammed at will pets once dead stays dead for a while.
3. Your pet wont do more then about 1 to 2k unless you activate some utility like sic em and signet of the wild in wich case it can compete on the damage level with phantasm for a time.

While i do agree the fact mesmer doesnt deal that much personnal damage it wasnt actualy made as a damage class to begin with. Mesmer is based on controling your foe via stunlock boon removal projectile deflection and clone spam (aka a minion master because lets face it the mesmer clones are the same stuff as minion they live to be sacrificed as optionnal targets). Once you start to run phantasmal berserker spam its no longuer a mind game.

Phantasm mesmer gets all its damage from phantasms, phantasm attacks have a lengthy cool down, like you said the phantasm mesmers personal damage output is fairly low, in larger fights the phantasm can die to aoe before it even does its damage, when the target of the phantasm is killed the phantasm explodes and needs to be resummoned on a new target if it is not on cool down.

there are reasons they work differently then pets or minions.

On that note, shattering a clone makes it run to the target before going boom. Do the same with the necro minion and it pops on the spot…

(Offensive) Phantasms are weapon skills. That’s why.
And they’re the only ones doing damage.

Who told you the Mesmer wasn’t “actually made as a damage class to begin with”?
That’s nonsense. Every class is meant to fulfill any role in this game.

Samhayn.2385:

1) Phantasm mesmer gets all its damage from phantasms,

2) phantasm attacks have a lengthy cool down,

3) phantasm mesmers personal damage output is fairly low,

4) in larger fights the phantasm can die to aoe before it even does its damage,

there are reasons they work differently then pets or minions.

1) Turret Engineers gets all its damage from Turrets,

2) Turrets have a lengthy cool down,

3) Turret Engineers personal damage output is fairly low,

4) in larger fights the turrets can die to aoe before it even does its damage,

there are reasons they work differently then pets or minions.

1) Beastmaster Ranger gets all its damage from Ranger Pets,

2) Good Ranger Pet atacks have a lengthy cool down,

3) Beastmaster Ranger’s personal damage output is fairly low,

4) in larger fights the Ranger’s Pet can die to aoe before it even does its damage,

there are reasons they work differently then phantasms or minions.

Do you see the massive double standard of every single one of your arguments? (Besides the target requirement of phantasms.)

(Besides the target requirement of phantasms.)

There you have it.

Mesmer is a pure 1v1 class, and gets increasingly useless, the larger the fight gets.

Also, engi turrets dont’t get countered by Blind last time i checked.

Iavra.8510:

(Besides the target requirement of phantasms.)

There you have it.

Mesmer is a pure 1v1 class, and gets increasingly useless, the larger the fight gets.

Also, engi turrets dont’t get countered by Blind last time i checked.

Well I’m just going to remind you that this isn’t a game of ‘spot the difference’. This is a thread that’s advocating proper scaling mechanics, where you jumped in as a naysayer.

Sure, there are many differences between the different kinds of A.I attacks – but what you’re saying is Turrets and Pets/Minions should not scale based on the user’s stats because of a lack of a target requirement. Perhaps you’d like to elaborate as to why?

Edit: Being marginalized in teamfights and more for pure 1v1 is a trait that’s shared by A.I focused Rangers, Mesmers, Engineers, and Necromancers. Another double standard..

Iavra.8510:

(Besides the target requirement of phantasms.)

There you have it.

Mesmer is a pure 1v1 class, and gets increasingly useless, the larger the fight gets.

Also, engi turrets dont’t get countered by Blind last time i checked.

but they dont have a 12 second cooldown between summon. A phantasm mesmer using both weapon and a utility phantasm can easily rebuild an army within seconds, While minion master and enginer needs to wait huge cooldowns and ranger pet simply cannot be allowed to die unless you want a 1 minute like revive time between the next swap.

The issue however is that Bm ranger, enginer and minion master should have their pet stat tied to their own so to prevent actual pet bunker while revalueing pet in a glass cannon summoner fashion.

When you imagine the general behind the army you imagine him as a vulnerable unit yet since he has the smart the other soldiers lack hes the one leading the team and he hide behind his unit while commanding the field from behind the scene.
On the other hand a tanky pet user wont have as much damage as a glassy pet user will so in the end the build damage potential is tied to the master damage potential.

It probably needs a phantasm mesmer to contribute something more useful to this conversation than me.

As long as my iZerker cripples and my traited iMage removes conditions, i’m basically fine But also remember that our direct damages kinda sucks compared to other classes (2.1k GS autoattack compared to 3-4k ranger LB, 1.7k sword autoattack compared to 3-4k warrior everything.)

Well I’m just going to remind you that this isn’t a game of ‘spot the difference’.

Yeah, but you know…that’s how this thread got started.

Altrought this isnt indeed a game of spot the defrence maybe other pet user should get a damage scaling as well. Im just pointing out that mesmer got this effect on their pet and we dont, this makes us totaly non-viable for a damage based team unless traiting for everything but our pets.

It goes so far that some rangers want the ranger pet removed from the game for behing useless. If pets is to be a part of the class it needs to actualy be competitive.

Actually, i’m all for giving ranger pets power/condi scaling. I think it’s kinda silly when the ranger is able to go full tank/regen or condi and still have his pet doing high crits all day long.

Iavra.8510:

Actually, i’m all for giving ranger pets power/condi scaling. I think it’s kinda silly when the ranger is able to go full tank/regen or condi and still have his pet doing high crits all day long.

That’s the point of the class though.

I think you’re tanking to the wrong way. Comparing ranger pets with phantasms won’t bring you anything.

Yes, ranger pets are horrible, but complain about what is wrong with them, not what other AI have.

Iavra.8510:

Actually, i’m all for giving ranger pets power/condi scaling. I think it’s kinda silly when the ranger is able to go full tank/regen or condi and still have his pet doing high crits all day long.

For sure.

It’s a common belief held as truth that the fact that when A.I doesn’t scale, it’s vastly underpowered for offensive builds, and if it’s ever usable, it’s broken as hell – being used by a tanky character to do 1v1 damage that’s much higher than should be possible.

basing the pet damage on the master damage would prevent such tanky build in the first place. A ranger with no power and crit dmg will transfer no power or critical damage to its pet. This also mean we could actualy run a glass cannon pet based build legitimately without making some kind of ranger tank with huge burst.

Likely with the adding of the ’’ferocity’’ effect we could actualy do such as scaling as to make pet damage scale with a percentage of the power and ferocity of the ranger.

Such master, such pet, both are the same and ranger behing the principe of 2 head is better then one should exemplify this. Instead we get to have one smart head and one idiotic and very independant housecat that cant actualy pull his share because if he did the tanking ranger would be broken.

Rampage as one, Fight as one, die togueter as one, the ranger and pet stat should be as one and not as two

engineer turrets do actually scale with power but cant crit

also ranger pets generally have high in whatever they do anyway

Stalima.5490:

engineer turrets do actually scale with power but cant crit

I too like to spout nonsense as I see fit.

flhauldhod1o`njalfajafaf4a12ni

I believe Anet once actually said that phantasms are not supposed to be seen as “pets” in their functionality. They need a target to be casted. They wipe when the target dies/gets out of range. Also, Mesmers can’t build an army within seconds. You can start with two phantasms if you don’t get blinded/interrupted and you need LoS for casting. They are the only weapon skills dealing a good amount of damage for us.

Try to see it that way: Both classes have damage coming from their weapon skills plus their class functionality (shatter + pets).
For the Mesmer, the major part of the damage coming from weapon skills is caused by one skill in each weapon set.
For the Ranger, the major part of this damage is more distributed, and the auto attacks are hitting much harder.

In addition to that, both classes have their class functionalities; shatter and pets. This is kinda fun to compare because these classes couldn’t be more different. While the Rangers weapon skills are active, their class functionality is passive/AI based. For Mesmers, it’s vice versa.

What I’m trying to say is; when you’re talking phantasms, you’re talking about weapon skills. If you’re talking Ranger pets, you’re talking about class functionalities like shatter.
You could argue that shatter benefits from precision and crit dmg while the ranger pets don’t, that would make more sense imo. But even then, comparing classes like this won’t ever give you a satisfying answer, since they are all so different in their design. In this case, the Mesmers shatter skills are neutralizing the biggest damage part coming from their weapon skills. That’s not the case for Rangers.

weither you want to admit it or not phantasm are a ’’petlike’’ mechanics wich dies upon the target death. They have the same AI and the same principe as a ranger pet save for the fact that they die upon the death of the target. Im not saying that phantasm are over powered im saying ALL pet should have the same stat system as phantasm do for the sake of making them usefull to begin with and power balanced.
The only defrence is mesmer got a single attack wich has a 6 to 10 second cooldown or something. Yet the mesmer phantasm hold the answer to a balance between pet and master and a fix to all those pet bunkers who can take out people yet be tanky.

A phantasm mesmer will deal pathetic damage if its critical damage and power is low (likely he will even be unable to kill other player). Same should go for the ranger pet. The pet not scaling with the ranger stat leaves the door wide open to ridiculus build like ranger tank pet burst. Making it scale like the mesmer phantasm force the ranger to stick to a damage build if he wants to effectively use the pet as a weapon.

Pet stat scaling fix two thing

1. No more excuse for Anet to nerf our pet damage out of fear of a pet tank re-emergance or of a minionmancer bunker necro of doom wich couldnt be killed yet would deal heavy damage and take down people, (actualy minionmancer bunker would likely die should the minion damage be reduced and scaled to the necromancer stat)

2. We finaly get to have a summons who can make themselves usefull in battle when specialised for it and ONLY when specialised for it, the thing no longuer is a dead weight or a totaly op gimmick wich provide damage to tank-like spec. Id go as far as to make the elementalist elemental elite stat based to prevent them using those summons for a burst damage purpose when they running cleric build.
Summons currently are either OP or to weak.. Basing their stat on your own would make it fair for everyone

Also the tooltip is wrong, turret dont currently gain bonus damage from power. Its just a bug but i soooo wish it was true.

well i wonder…

last time someone checked turret didnt scale despite what tooltip pretend… try the turret with a zerker armor then remove it and summon it again to check the damage.

I wish it was true, i reaaaaaaly wish those silly tooltip where telling the truth.

and i was being ironic btw if you didnt know

@Op. The reason that ranger “pets” do not scale with your stats like the way that mesmers phantasms do is one simple reason.
Ranger pets have all their own base stats to begin with. Take the Brown Bear with its massive toughness and vitality… Mesmer phantasms have no base stats.

Also mesmer summons are completely target bound and have a much slower rate of attack than your pets.

Then add to this if all ranger pets scaled with your stats ON top of having their own base stats on top of having points in the beastmaster line further improving their stats then we would have things like OHKO pets that can deal massive damage because their stats are getting supplemented by multiple places.

This argument can simply be broken down in one way. If you want to increase your pets stats, spend points in the beast master line and do it. The same way a mesmer has to spread their trait points across three different lines just so their phantasms don’t hit like a wet noodle.

TL:DR Ranger pets don’t need to scale with player stats because they have their own base stats and an entire trait line that increases each primary stat (power, prec, tougness, vit) by 10 points for every one point spent in the same trait line.

jportell.2197:

@Op. The reason that ranger “pets” do not scale with your stats like the way that mesmers phantasms do is one simple reason.
Ranger pets have all their own base stats to begin with. Take the Brown Bear with its massive toughness and vitality… Mesmer phantasms have no base stats.

Also mesmer summons are completely target bound and have a much slower rate of attack than your pets.

Then add to this if all ranger pets scaled with your stats ON top of having their own base stats on top of having points in the beastmaster line further improving their stats then we would have things like OHKO pets that can deal massive damage because their stats are getting supplemented by multiple places.

This argument can simply be broken down in one way. If you want to increase your pets stats, spend points in the beast master line and do it. The same way a mesmer has to spread their trait points across three different lines just so their phantasms don’t hit like a wet noodle.

TL:DR Ranger pets don’t need to scale with player stats because they have their own base stats and an entire trait line that increases each primary stat (power, prec, tougness, vit) by 10 points for every one point spent in the same trait line.

reduce their base stat slightly so that their base damage is lower then right now… add pet stat scaling to this formula… we get pet that hit 1.5 time harder then before and can do critical damage the same as us. Its perfectly possible for pets to retain their stat identity without making them all into power house. All they have to do is reduce those that then add the scaling to it so that the damage improvement isnt to high. So stop getting out poor excuse to back up bad gimmick.

Btway im 30 into beast mastery and my pet still hit like a wet noodle even with 25 might stack full vulnerability and a jungle stalker… do you know why? Because out of fear of the ranger tank pet damage devs have nerfed them again and again to the point of oblivion! Damage scaling is the only way to make sure pets never again becomes OP on a tanking spec while keeping them viable for everyone who wants to use them as their primary specialisation. Or maybe you consider pet are only good for tanking and should remain as such. Well i dont.

Phantasms can be dodged (and put on full cooldown with no phantasm for the duration). If you want that for your pets then I think you might need medication.

Phantasm and clones die when your target dies. I’m thinking you wouldn’t want that feature either.

In short they are different animals (pun intended).

P.S. Rangers already have a trait line that boosts pet stats. Having the pet stats further increase off the player stats would be a bit OP maybe?

kyubi.3620:

jportell.2197:

@Op. The reason that ranger “pets” do not scale with your stats like the way that mesmers phantasms do is one simple reason.
Ranger pets have all their own base stats to begin with. Take the Brown Bear with its massive toughness and vitality… Mesmer phantasms have no base stats.

Also mesmer summons are completely target bound and have a much slower rate of attack than your pets.

Then add to this if all ranger pets scaled with your stats ON top of having their own base stats on top of having points in the beastmaster line further improving their stats then we would have things like OHKO pets that can deal massive damage because their stats are getting supplemented by multiple places.

This argument can simply be broken down in one way. If you want to increase your pets stats, spend points in the beast master line and do it. The same way a mesmer has to spread their trait points across three different lines just so their phantasms don’t hit like a wet noodle.

TL:DR Ranger pets don’t need to scale with player stats because they have their own base stats and an entire trait line that increases each primary stat (power, prec, tougness, vit) by 10 points for every one point spent in the same trait line.

reduce their base stat slightly so that their base damage is lower then right now… add pet stat scaling to this formula… we get pet that hit 1.5 time harder then before and can do critical damage the same as us. Its perfectly possible for pets to retain their stat identity without making them all into power house. All they have to do is reduce those that then add the scaling to it so that the damage improvement isnt to high. So stop getting out poor excuse to back up bad gimmick.

Btway im 30 into beast mastery and my pet still hit like a wet noodle even with 25 might stack full vulnerability and a jungle stalker… do you know why? Because out of fear of the ranger tank pet damage devs have nerfed them again and again to the point of oblivion! Damage scaling is the only way to make sure pets never again becomes OP on a tanking spec while keeping them viable for everyone who wants to use them.

…. Have you even seen the list of mesmer nerfs? At least rangers have a place in the current meta. And I’m sorry but when facing a ranger in tPvP (if he kills me) guess where all the damage came from… His pet…. So once again you have no reason to gripe about ranger pets. At least your pets have more than 1k health.
At least your pets are affected by your heals.
At least your pets aren’t completely target bound.
At least your pets have offensive knockdowns, cc, and fear.
Ranger pets have gotten massive buffs in pve and wvw if your pet still hits like a wet noodle maybe its because Anet knows that YOU can hit pretty hard if you spec for it.

A full phantasm mesmer in nothing but zerker gear AA hits like a wet wet wet noodle…
A full zerker ranger with a damaging pet can get crazy numbers off still.

juno.1840:

Phantasms can be dodged (and put on full cooldown with no phantasm for the duration). If you want that for your pets then I think you might need medication.

Phantasm and clones die when your target dies. I’m thinking you wouldn’t want that feature either.

In short they are different animals (pun intended).

P.S. Rangers already have a trait line that boosts pet stats. Having the pet stats further increase off the player stats would be a bit OP maybe?

Not with a base damage nerf of 50% to compensate for the gain of power. This result into the pet behing weaker for non beastmaster or damage ranger and stronguer for the people who actualy work on them. Right now you guys are enjoying the pet mechanics damage as an offside bonus to your own without even traiting for it because pet damage is static reguardless of the spec or the gear. Making the pet spec and gear tied would set it appart as something totaly defrent from what the sword meta is using it for right now.

Im 100% speced into my pet i got 30 in Beast mastery and 25 into skirmish all those trait revolving around providing my pet maximum damage, what do i gain? A joke on the same sublevel as the minion master necromancer who run tanklike and the turret enginer who just cant get their turret to deal damage to begin with.

Ranger place in the meta doesnt use pet at all… it would rather get rid of it and gain that 30% damage back then even use it. The ranger pet right now is considered a ’’weakness’’ of the class.

If with all trait in and a full might stack/vulnerability with full 25 stack of pet stat bonus my cat cant hit a 20k on clawing combo or at least nearby that damage when im 100% speced for it theres a huge issue to the dps that thing do. Especialy because its ONE pet and not 5 or 6.

You dare call a pet swap +3 stack of might a buff please tell me your kidding, this doesnt invite the ranger to actualy use the pet it invite it to dispatch it as a utility for the purpose of boosting himself. The current ranger Meta is utherly pet unfriendly weither its for condition transfer or actualy just denying the traitline at all pet serves only as a sacrificiable tool and thats if it can even raise to that challange.

one truth jportell. the pet doesnt do the damage in this build… the sword ranger does 90% of the total damage so stop pretending that pathetic 1.5k on crit the cat does is even worth bragging about because its not. We have to work treasure of imagination using all our other spells while denying our main tool to even get close to a specialisation here.

@kyubi:

Pet damage is impacted by the beastmastery trait. So it’s not “static” as you say (more beastmastery = more pet power stat = more pet damage).

With these changes, you’d essentially get a freebie (i.e. better pets without spec’ing into beastmastery). As it stands currently, you have to sacrifice traits (points into beastmastery) to make your pet more effective.

If you switch pet effectiveness so it’s based upon player stats, there is no sacrifice — you get a high DPS pet just for using high DPS gear (which most players use right?). In addition, you make pets wet-noodles for tanky ranger gearsets. So it reduces build variety in that way.

Yes I know you are saying beastmastery still has an impact, but if that’s true then what did you gain by making your player stats also work? You nerf’d the pet damage to compensate, but then if you go zerk is your pet any better than it was before? If no, then you came out as a loss over the current implementation. If yes, then you effectively nerfed beastmastery and screwed every ranger that put points there.

juno.1840:

@kyubi:

Pet damage is impacted by the beastmastery trait. So it’s not “static” as you say (more beastmastery = more pet power stat = more pet damage).

With these changes, you’d essentially get a freebie (i.e. better pets without spec’ing into beastmastery). As it stands currently, you have to sacrifice traits (points into beastmastery) to make your pet more effective.

If you switch pet effectiveness so it’s based upon player stats, there is no sacrifice — you get a high DPS pet just for using high DPS gear (which most players use right?). In addition, you make pets wet-noodles for tanky ranger gearsets. So it reduces build variety in that way.

Yes I know you are saying beastmastery still has an impact, but if that’s true then what did you gain by making your player stats also work? You nerf’d the pet damage to compensate, but then if you go zerk is your pet any better than it was before? If no, then you came out as a loss over the current implementation. If yes, then you effectively nerfed beastmastery and screwed every ranger that put points there.

Reduce the pet base damage by 50% and check how much damage it does… if the guy aint specing into beast mastery hell likely loose that 50% damage by default… now if beast mastery actualy worked as to add 1.5% of the master stat to the pet on each trait point or something around instead of a flat 300 point nobody will ever brag about we could actualy get something interesting.

Scaling the damage is the solution but theil have to dramaticaly reduce the base damage the pet does unspeced before applying it.

if a speced ranger gain 150% of the pre change pet damage and a non speced ranger deals 50% of that damage we get something worth using the beast mastery traitline for.
300 power isnt significant enought of a change to actualy make pet viable as a weapon in the first place when it will barely achieve about 1 to 2k more damage at best when fully buffed and for a very limited amount of time (yay im spiking a decent amount of damage ah darn the 15 second 1 minute cooldown buff is over).

Whats your pet 4k crit on maximised circonstance worth in comparison to what the other class do? Nothing, and thats twice as true if you had to sacrifice all your trait for the purpose of pet damage to the point you yourself end up weakened. Running beast mastery and sacrificing own damage should be as worthwhile as not doing it.

I can run full berserker armor or cleric. Will this have an impact on my pet damage? mo it wont and since basicaly i just wasted 300 point on a thing that wont benefit my overall damage to begin with because a 300 point to my pet isnt as good as 300 point to me especialy since i can just spec pure condifion damage and run bleeding spam with the pet doing the same damage as before yet dealing increased damage from condition. This isnt promoting zerker pet at all.

juno.1840:

@kyubi:

Pet damage is impacted by the beastmastery trait. So it’s not “static” as you say (more beastmastery = more pet power stat = more pet damage).

Stopped here… because if you don’t want to call it static, having one way to modify it is pretttttty far from dynamic. It requires stat scaling, not just from one trait line modifier.

To put it a different way, consider the pet with today’s implementation:

Damage = MIN to MAX
MIN: beastmastery at 0 points
MAX: beastmastery at 30 points
MEDIAN: 1.0

With your proposal it’d be: 0.5 * MIN – X * MAX
0.5 * MIN: beastmastery at 0 points, gear with no power nor precision
X * MAX: beastmaster at 30 points, full zerker gear
MEDIAN: TBD

So the first big question is what would be the MEDIAN for most players. If the MEDIAN drops below 1.0 then you nerfed most builds. If it’s above 1.0 then you buffed most builds.

The next big question is what is what’s X? If X is 1.0 then you didn’t do anything other than nerf pets (i.e. MAX stayed the same, but MIN dropped by 50%). If X is larger than 1.0, how much larger? How much damage should a glass cannon pet do? Is 2.0 the number you want? Is that OP?

So where I’m going is you made the system more complex and there may not be a corresponding benefit. If you go to the extreme and get a little more pet damage, was that worth it? What if the pet damage for most players drops (MEDIAN)?

juno.1840:

To put it a different way, consider the pet with today’s implementation:

Damage = MIN to MAX
MIN: beastmastery at 0 points
MAX: beastmastery at 30 points
MEDIAN: 1.0

With your proposal it’d be: 0.5 * MIN – X * MAX
0.5 * MIN: beastmastery at 0 points, gear with no power nor precision
X * MAX: beastmaster at 30 points, full zerker gear
MEDIAN: TBD

So the first big question is what would be the MEDIAN for most players. If the MEDIAN drops below 1.0 then you nerfed most builds. If it’s above 1.0 then you buffed most builds.

The next big question is what is what’s X? If X is 1.0 then you didn’t do anything other than nerf pets (i.e. MAX stayed the same, but MIN dropped by 50%). If X is larger than 1.0, how much larger? How much damage should a glass cannon pet do? Is 2.0 the number you want? Is that OP?

So where I’m going is you made the system more complex and there may not be a corresponding benefit. If you go to the extreme and get a little more pet damage, was that worth it? What if the pet damage for most players drops (MEDIAN)?

It wont drop as long as the pet gain more damage from power then it had before the nerf. It will drop for condition spammer who dont run rampager however and it will highly drop for cleric or tanky ranger who dont run neither cond damage or power.

Its not Op if the pet gains better damage at the condition of the player running a glass cannon build. Its Op only if pure tanks benefit from it to the point of having all the advantage and none of the consequance. A zerker or a rampager player using the pet traitline should be rewarded for running glass cannon in the mean of increased pet damage.

If most build totaly ignore the beast mastery traitline to the profit of other traits… then yes i nerfed most build.

The other alternative would be to put a grandmaster trait to the beastmastery wich increase the pet damage based on the master but keep the stat for the ranger that dont spec into it or remove the 300 point of beast mastery and replace it with stat percentage gain for pet instead.

Whole point is to make pet a viable specialisation for those that want to specialise specificaly into emphasing it, while keeping it somehwhat ordinary for the regular ranger who dont use this traitline

kyubi.3620:

Altrought this isnt indeed a game of spot the defrence maybe other pet user should get a damage scaling as well. Im just pointing out that mesmer got this effect on their pet and we dont, this makes us totaly non-viable for a damage based team unless traiting for everything but our pets.

It goes so far that some rangers want the ranger pet removed from the game for behing useless. If pets is to be a part of the class it needs to actualy be competitive.

because illusions arent pets. They are attacks. Different classes behave differently. Also your idea the mesmer can be tanky while its illusions are offensive is incorrect. they use the mesmers stats, so a tank mesmer has weak dmg phantasms. If you are talking about being tanky with strong conditions, go see every condi/bunker in the game. When a mesmer is full DPS his phantasms can barely survive 1 hit.

the advantage to having your pets stats different is you can have tanky bear, and DPS ranger, or DPS cat, and condi bunker rnger. Its different, different classes are meant to be different.

Notice all illusions die with target death, and the inability to precast them. Its just a totally different thing

I think it’s fair for a player to design a build that’s max tank, min damage, and still have max pet. Your proposal makes that build not possible.

I think ANet did it right by decoupling your gear from your pet. You can hit like a wet noodle but have a good pet purely by investing in beastmastery.

This proposal will just push more people into zerkers which is already a problem (that problem being the lack of build alternatives that are on par with pure zerk).

kyubi.3620:

juno.1840:

To put it a different way, consider the pet with today’s implementation:

Damage = MIN to MAX
MIN: beastmastery at 0 points
MAX: beastmastery at 30 points
MEDIAN: 1.0

With your proposal it’d be: 0.5 * MIN – X * MAX
0.5 * MIN: beastmastery at 0 points, gear with no power nor precision
X * MAX: beastmaster at 30 points, full zerker gear
MEDIAN: TBD

So the first big question is what would be the MEDIAN for most players. If the MEDIAN drops below 1.0 then you nerfed most builds. If it’s above 1.0 then you buffed most builds.

The next big question is what is what’s X? If X is 1.0 then you didn’t do anything other than nerf pets (i.e. MAX stayed the same, but MIN dropped by 50%). If X is larger than 1.0, how much larger? How much damage should a glass cannon pet do? Is 2.0 the number you want? Is that OP?

So where I’m going is you made the system more complex and there may not be a corresponding benefit. If you go to the extreme and get a little more pet damage, was that worth it? What if the pet damage for most players drops (MEDIAN)?

It wont drop as long as the pet gain more damage from power then it had before the nerf. It will drop for condition spammer who dont run rampager however and it will highly drop for cleric or tanky ranger who dont run neither cond damage or power.

Its not Op if the pet gains better damage at the condition of the player running a glass cannon build. Its Op only if pure tanks benefit from it to the point of having all the advantage and none of the consequance. A zerker or a rampager player using the pet traitline should be rewarded for running glass cannon in the mean of increased pet damage.

If most build totaly ignore the beast mastery traitline to the profit of other traits… then yes i nerfed most build.

The other alternative would be to put a grandmaster trait to the beastmastery wich increase the pet damage based on the master but keep the stat for the ranger that dont spec into it or remove the 300 point of beast mastery and replace it with stat percentage gain for pet instead.

see your discussion of ranger totally misses the point, ranger is supposed to select their pet based on what type of build of pet they want, support, dps, tank, range, debuff. It makes more sense that pets have their own stat spread than it be based on the rangers equip. If you want a dps pet, you pick one.

phys.7689:

kyubi.3620:

juno.1840:

To put it a different way, consider the pet with today’s implementation:

Damage = MIN to MAX
MIN: beastmastery at 0 points
MAX: beastmastery at 30 points
MEDIAN: 1.0

With your proposal it’d be: 0.5 * MIN – X * MAX
0.5 * MIN: beastmastery at 0 points, gear with no power nor precision
X * MAX: beastmaster at 30 points, full zerker gear
MEDIAN: TBD

So the first big question is what would be the MEDIAN for most players. If the MEDIAN drops below 1.0 then you nerfed most builds. If it’s above 1.0 then you buffed most builds.

The next big question is what is what’s X? If X is 1.0 then you didn’t do anything other than nerf pets (i.e. MAX stayed the same, but MIN dropped by 50%). If X is larger than 1.0, how much larger? How much damage should a glass cannon pet do? Is 2.0 the number you want? Is that OP?

So where I’m going is you made the system more complex and there may not be a corresponding benefit. If you go to the extreme and get a little more pet damage, was that worth it? What if the pet damage for most players drops (MEDIAN)?

It wont drop as long as the pet gain more damage from power then it had before the nerf. It will drop for condition spammer who dont run rampager however and it will highly drop for cleric or tanky ranger who dont run neither cond damage or power.

Its not Op if the pet gains better damage at the condition of the player running a glass cannon build. Its Op only if pure tanks benefit from it to the point of having all the advantage and none of the consequance. A zerker or a rampager player using the pet traitline should be rewarded for running glass cannon in the mean of increased pet damage.

If most build totaly ignore the beast mastery traitline to the profit of other traits… then yes i nerfed most build.

The other alternative would be to put a grandmaster trait to the beastmastery wich increase the pet damage based on the master but keep the stat for the ranger that dont spec into it or remove the 300 point of beast mastery and replace it with stat percentage gain for pet instead.

see your discussion of ranger totally misses the point, ranger is supposed to select their pet based on what type of build of pet they want, support, dps, tank, range, debuff. It makes more sense that pets have their own stat spread than it be based on the rangers equip. If you want a dps pet, you pick one.

We can keep it that way all while fixing the horrible damage the pet deals. I agree pet have their personnality imprinted into their stat but those pet could gain various percentage depending on their type. Pet wont loose their stat identity they will just become more viable for the people who actualy want to run them for their actual purpose.

Pet are NOT damage viable right now and wont be unless there is a way to seriously increase their damage cap while remaining somewhat balanced. To tie a part of the pet power to gear would help that purpose.

Pet also run differant variant of builds… A bear will ALWAYS deal less damage then a cat reguardless of how much damage boost i get, same can be said in any situation where a pet is involved. The bear however will always be tankyer then the cat and no power bonus will change that.

You may pretend a ranger has 30% of its damage took off by pet… but a beastmaster who specialised into it runs 75% of its damage into his pet claiming for an improvement to beast mastery damage is just legitimate.

kyubi.3620:

So everyone tells me mesmer phantasm gets to scale with both power and critical damage.

Can someone explain me why the 3 phantasm spammer wich multi hit cause tons of condition damage from pistol unload etc gets to have his summon scale with critical damage and power on a spec wich runs on survivability (inspiration) yet the enginer turret and the ranger pet dont? If this is Anet idea of a pet balance id like to hear their actual reason why an actual tri-illusion spam can hit harder then a creature of flesh and bone wich is the ranger main mechanic?

While the excuse of it doing its huge damage by interval is somewhat fine the fact that you got 3 of them doing it makes all other pet based class look crappy

zerker in the mist: 3k damage with zerk amulet
Duelist in the mist: about 3k damage long range
Phantasmal defender: best damage total of all 3 but its somewhat weaker because of its attack interlude
Sword phantasm: best single hit striker, it can hit around 3 to 4k

Consider the fact the mesmer can have 3 of these wich attack about every 7 second or less, you just stacked a good 12+ bleed as well as a fairly high amount of damage from a pet team. Now lets look at the ranger pet

1. Damage dead unless traited while mesmer phantasm remain strong prety much at all time.
2. Unlike the phantasm wich can be spammed at will pets once dead stays dead for a while.
3. Your pet wont do more then about 1 to 2k unless you activate some utility like sic em and signet of the wild in wich case it can compete on the damage level with phantasm for a time.

While i do agree the fact mesmer doesnt deal that much personnal damage it wasnt actualy made as a damage class to begin with. Mesmer is based on controling your foe via stunlock boon removal projectile deflection and clone spam (aka a minion master because lets face it the mesmer clones are the same stuff as minion they live to be sacrificed as optionnal targets). Once you start to run phantasmal berserker spam its no longuer a mind game.

Almost no one plays Phantasm mesmers anymore. While they work great on paper in practice they have massive problems.

The scaling was put in as a band-aid to broken mechanics.

Chaith.8256:

Samhayn.2385:

1) Phantasm mesmer gets all its damage from phantasms,

2) phantasm attacks have a lengthy cool down,

3) phantasm mesmers personal damage output is fairly low,

4) in larger fights the phantasm can die to aoe before it even does its damage,

there are reasons they work differently then pets or minions.

1) Turret Engineers gets all its damage from Turrets,

2) Turrets have a lengthy cool down,

3) Turret Engineers personal damage output is fairly low,

4) in larger fights the turrets can die to aoe before it even does its damage,

Are turrets part of every engineer build? Nope.
Are phantasms part of every mesmer build? Yes.
(every mesmer’s weapon set has at least one phantasm)

Iavra.8510:

(Besides the target requirement of phantasms.)

There you have it.

Mesmer is a pure 1v1 class, and gets increasingly useless, the larger the fight gets.

Also, engi turrets dont’t get countered by Blind last time i checked.

Turrets also don’t follow the target or move… ever…

Blind→no phant is because phant summons are considered to be attacks. Don’t ask me why they don’t destealth/reveal the mesmer when summoned then though… phant rules are weird.

Chaith.8256:

Samhayn.2385:

1) Phantasm mesmer gets all its damage from phantasms,

2) phantasm attacks have a lengthy cool down,

3) phantasm mesmers personal damage output is fairly low,

4) in larger fights the phantasm can die to aoe before it even does its damage,

there are reasons they work differently then pets or minions.

1) Turret Engineers gets all its damage from Turrets,

2) Turrets have a lengthy cool down,

3) Turret Engineers personal damage output is fairly low,

4) in larger fights the turrets can die to aoe before it even does its damage,

there are reasons they work differently then pets or minions.

1) Beastmaster Ranger gets all its damage from Ranger Pets,

2) Good Ranger Pet atacks have a lengthy cool down,

3) Beastmaster Ranger’s personal damage output is fairly low,

4) in larger fights the Ranger’s Pet can die to aoe before it even does its damage,

there are reasons they work differently then phantasms or minions.

Do you see the massive double standard of every single one of your arguments? (Besides the target requirement of phantasms.)

sure let them scale with power,crit damage but the base damage would need to be lowered, beastmaster pets can hit hard whether or not you you go full zerk or full tank.

They need to slightly reduce the current damage in order to avoid making pet overpowered all while adding the ability to scale damage crit damage and precision. While pet deserve a good 25% to 50% boost to its damage it shoulnt be worth a player full damage on its own either. Point is that a tank ranger shouldnt end up with a heavy damage nuker pet.

On a side note one should remember that the pet does not deal aoe dps since its attack cannot cleave, they need to fix that.

Heh, but the thing is, I wish my phantasms scaled properly in the first place.

They scale with Power, Precision and Malice IIRC.
No Prowess, no Concentration, no nothing.

i dont recall prowess and concentration to be a stat… oh well at least they proc regeneration to everyone

he’s referring to the older and less-used (possibly even obsolete) terms for crit damage and boon duration. as to why he’s using these terms, I have no clue, since even the wiki give the more common names and Anet rarely use the older terms in whatever livestreams I’ve seen.

Carighan.6758:

Heh, but the thing is, I wish my phantasms scaled properly in the first place.

They scale with Power, Precision and Malice IIRC.
No Prowess, no Concentration, no nothing.

No prowess, no concentration, no nothing? Lol

So you’re saying that a Mesmer with 100%+ crit damage (prowess) will hit a Phantasmal Berserker for the same as an identical stat mesmer, EXCEPT with +0% crit damage?

Ok man, whatever you say, lol. Pretty sure you’re totally out to lunch on this one. Phantasms get full scaling from crit damage.

Also, doesn’t scale on concentration? Like… the retal from the Torch offhand Phantasm or something?

“Illusions inherit: Power, Precision, Condition Damage/Duration, Boon Duration, Critical Damage, Armor, and Healing Power. Illusions will benefit from the Mesmer’s Might stacks, as well as any effects that increase the above stats, such as Banner of Discipline or Spotter. Illusions inherit nourishment from food buffs, but do not gain from sigils (such as the 5% damage of Sigil of Force)”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Lyssa-s-Grimoire-The-Mesmer-Handbook/first#post2916450

Also quit using terms like prowess, malice, concentration, etc. – those are terms that the majority don’t use anymore.

Takes me longer to kill the pet than to kill the ranger itself. I wish my Phantasms had those base stats… they blow up when you sneeze at them.

Two threads complaining about zerkers/speedruns and pet builds, in one day. 10/10 OP, please post more.

Ranger can choose pets that do something else than the ranger. A complete condi build + a power pet working good together. That wouldn’t work if the stats weren’t seperated. Another example is the standard ranger, taking a heavy bear and building zerker bow.
Going beastmaster will buff the stats of the pet just fine. Only problem could be the traits in the line, i don’t like the pet specific stuff.

well what about them adding a trait that gives pet ability to scale a specific stat?
Tbh i just want my pet to deal actualy visible damage when traited toward it and stop striking like if he wanted to play with a whool ball. Beastmastery is hardly as glorious of a spec as it should be right now because reguardless of if you trait or not for it the pet prety much still hit like a kitten and most of the damage comes from you. Since you basicaly have to sacrifice personnal dps to put trait in the pet traitline pets should be way stronguer then this when traited properly.

Either they give us back the damage the pet did in Beta that they nerfed countless time either they find a way to make the pet damage viable… i dont care how they do it i just want my kitty to deal the 50% of my personnal damage his trait spec is worth.

Currently traited
0
25 (pet critical increase, pet might)
0
15 (pet gain boons increased regen time)
30 (pet cooldown reduced, cat deals bleed, pet gain regeneration)

running signet of the hunt, sic em, signet of the wild, rampage as one

yes im highly pet focused and currently my pet has done his best crit as a somewhat 10k bite likely with all burst used and at 25 might stack.

on a side note (if they make signet proc to both pet and master this might be interesting)