Guild Wars 2

Dondagora.9645:

xDudisx.5914:

Moa also removes all the minions of a necro and put them on cd. This another example of how broken the skill is.

It counter plays necro. And that’s more of a bug than anything else. A bug ANet knows fully about, and why it is, and how to fix it. And they left it there for their to be better counter play against MM necros.

Also, where the hell did this argument come from? Like I said, organize your argument before you make a QQ, then maybe you can convince people, but right now it looks like you hadn’t done any research before hand, then you did, and found something else you could complain about just like you did in the post above.

Get all your facts straight at the beginning then QQ.

Stop making assumptions you cant prove. I know moa removes minions by experience. Now who are you to dictate the order someone post their arguments? Lol so I cant think in something else to add in the topic latter. This topic is not even mine, I am just supporting the op.

It just needs a counter, like you can stun-break out of it or something. It’s pretty OP in anything larger than a 2v2 simply because it’s uncounterable.

For extra hilarity, if you see a player trying to kill Svanir/Chieftain, Moa the NPC and watch it just WRECK the player with its crazy-fast attack rate and super-powered NPC damage. XD

xDudisx.5914:

All the other skills can be dodged, this is not a good argument to defend moa.

Uh huh. Right. Only they’re multi-hit, multi-pulse or AE, and let’s not forget most are all of those. And then there’s the whole host of beneficial elites which as it turns out care very little for whether you dodge them if they belong to the enemy.

You can dodge attacks, yes. That’s incidentally why you can dodge Moa but not Warrior Rezz Banner, the former being a targeted attack.

Same with the CD, you say it’s not a valid argument, but please understand the core of it:

1. You block one enemy’s normal abilities (you don’t remove them from combat, the thing actually does a significant amount of damage).
2. You don’t do anything about all the other enemies. Unlike the other two Elite skills.
3. You remove them for 1/18th of their time. Even if you were to finish the combat in 10 seconds, that’s still very little time overall. Adding people affected, Time Warp has ~4x that uptime, and that’s one of the lowest-coverage elites.

In total, you don’t actually change much. That’s the issue. Yes, to the person affected Moa sucks. To the one getting killed in a 2v2 fight because their teammate was Moa’d, Moa seems overpowered. But look at all the players on a map, look at the outcome of a fight, and check what Moa did to change it. F-nothing.
More so because both other Elites the Mesmer could select would readily make a difference in a lot of situations. Only Moa is a hyper-specialized and frankly really bad elite which only serves to make people cry on the forums. It’s combat value is marginal. It makes you win fights you would have already won slightly faster, once every 3 minutes, and makes you lose other fights every 1,5~3,5 minutes which you could have won instead had you used a sensible elite.

(edit)
Oh, and one more thing it does well: Punish Duellers. But then, duelling just isn’t a supported way to combat in this game. You’re supposed to avoid it at all costs, as fighting with superior numbers not only ensures victory in most cases but also saves on time, time you can spend going after objectives.

jihm.2315:

Anton.1769:

jihm.2315:

ok give all classes a skill that is not always useful but once it lands you have a 90% of killing the complete noob

fixed for you

another mesmer that thinks that everyone has to learn to play and everything on mesmer is balanced.
why is mesmer the only class that needs endless tutorials to fight against?
and why only mesmers call people noobs all the time?

I’m a ranger and I belive only noobs die in moa morph.

Btw you can still evade or block it, if you need practice you can go to the heart of the mist and fight the mesmer NPC

caveman.5840:

but if u kill the mesmer as a moa \m/ ‘o’ \m/ happy dance

i love being moad when i wanna run away. my mes is slow so i love the extra speed buff i get XD

and yes i killed a lot while i was moad

Actualy i love to be moa on my necro, i finally have some evades :P thx Anet

Anton.1769:

xDudisx.5914:

Dondagora.9645:

jihm.2315:

ok give all classes a skill that is not always useful but once it lands you have a 90% of killing the enemy

Necro>>Lich
Warrior>>Burst/Rampage
Ranger>>Rapid Fire/Entangle
Engi>>Supply Crate
Thief>>Heart Seeker

Not “I win button”, but the win-rate is probably the same.

All the examples you gave let you still make use of your skills, utilities and have some counters.

lich: remove stability and chain cc, reflect his projectiles, use line of sight,….
most burst skills are ok and balanced. rampage: when was the last time you have seen a warrior using it?
ranger: 1 condi clear, teleport or destroy the vines and you are free. you can reflect rapid fire, staff eles do it all the time
supply crate: this one is close to moa but at least you still have your skills to use,
heartseeker: it is not op,

moa: you cant use your weapon skills, cant use utilities, cant use your class mechanics. without that you nullify the enemy entire build and traits that synergize with the active usage of skills.

moa: It can be blocked/blinded/evaded. Not enough? Ok. At moa form you can evade, use leap and “charge” with evade effect.

btw, look at topics xDudisx creates: “nerf zerk mesmer”, “nerf zerk necro” and …“add critical effect to healing”. Can you guess hiss class? Right, guardian.

Can people stop making assumptions and saying stuff they don’t know? I have 1 of each class. And have already played with almost all the meta/cheese builds around, MM necro, Turret engi, celestial hambow, celestial elementalist, sw+dg thief, celestial engineer, etc. In pve my main in zerker staff ele. In wvw I rotate between guardian/war/ele zerg or any other in roaming build. Are you happy now? Or do you think everyone is obligated to have the same point of view as you?

xDudisx.5914:

I have 1 of each class. And have already played with almost all the meta/cheese builds around, MM necro, Turret engi, celestial hambow, celestial elementalist, sw+dg thief, celestial engineer, etc.

But then in that case, you should already know how absolutely inconsequential Moa Morph is (and hence why it’s so rarely taken as the elite for a Mesmer).

xDudisx.5914:

Dondagora.9645:

xDudisx.5914:

Moa also removes all the minions of a necro and put them on cd. This another example of how broken the skill is.

It counter plays necro. And that’s more of a bug than anything else. A bug ANet knows fully about, and why it is, and how to fix it. And they left it there for their to be better counter play against MM necros.

Also, where the hell did this argument come from? Like I said, organize your argument before you make a QQ, then maybe you can convince people, but right now it looks like you hadn’t done any research before hand, then you did, and found something else you could complain about just like you did in the post above.

Get all your facts straight at the beginning then QQ.

Stop making assumptions you cant prove. I know moa removes minions by experience. Now who are you to dictate the order someone post their arguments? Lol so I cant think in something else to add in the topic latter. This topic is not even mine, I am just supporting the op.

Oh, right, this isn’t your thread. In that case, my bad, thought you were the OP just winging his argument, which is quite annoying. Sorry.

On your argument, though, I know moa kills minions when the necro is transformed(from experience doing it to necros myself). There’s a reason for this: The nerf to lich form in which minions die when the necro enters it. In the code, it apparently isn’t connected to the lich in which the skill says “kill minions”, but the code of the minions say “die when transformed”, which is why the transformation of moa removes the minions. The devs acknowledged this, I believe, in one of their live streams[cannot remember which, someone else can provide the reference if needed] as a bug, but left it there because they felt that kind of play wasn’t too bad as an anti-bunker or anti-decap technique.

This is one area where WOW got it right. Sheep breaks on damage and you heal while you are sheeped. So there is considerable tradeoff to sheeping smeone.

Moa is i-win. I am quite flattered when someone Moa’s me as that means they see me as a threat. But really the ability to Moa and continue dpsing someone is pretty strong. I usually try to hide as a Moa but there is often not a lot of obstacles to use and the Moa seems to move rather slow. Perhaps if it had some crazy movement speed it would be more fun for every one… I mean like really fast with stability. It would be hilarious to see a bunch of people chasing a super speedy Moa around.

The Moa ability should work like Death Shroud and the Moa skin has its own health bar. If you kill the guy in Moa he is dead, but if you don’t he returns to his normal healthbar undamaged. This way the skill would be a CC and not an iwin button.

I also like the idea of super speedy Moa being full of laughs.

xDudisx.5914:

Moa also removes all the minions of a necro and put them on cd. This another example of how broken the skill is.

“You can practice the morphed skill set in the Heart of the Mists, the Mesmer training NPC will cast it on you in battle.”

sounds like a l2p issue to me

I have kill sooooo many players while i am in moa form. In my experience, it is often used when they realize they are going to lose. Often by then it is to late.

If they use it early on I simply use 2 to cripple them then run. Try to time my dodges, then use 5 as an extra dodge. It seems to work well. I don’t think this skill is even close to an “I win” button. It is an elite, with a solid cooldown , so the fact that it is strong is reasonable to me.

Really? I just spam 5 and jump away, sometimes I peck them to death and it’s glorious.

Yeah but coglin, few people realize that you usually deal more damage in Moa form after all the buffs it received.

Ah, one of “those” players.

Yep, ‘cry’ long enough and eventually people grow to ignore you and do not listen when you actually have valid complaints …

Just ignore them for now… The thread will slowly dissolve until the next one hits again when someone else finds it “unfair”…

What Moa needs its 2 things. After that its balanced.

- Cannot be casted while in stealth.
- Can be refleted. (This could be a huge buff to the mesmer because acording to these forums Moa is very powerfull).

silentnight warrior.2714:

What Moa needs its 2 things. After that its balanced.

- Cannot be casted while in stealth.
- Can be refleted. (This could be a huge buff to the mesmer because acording to these forums Moa is very powerfull).

First thing is fine, second is… well, troll-ish. Assuming you’re not joking, I’d argue that reflect is for projectiles, and moa is no projectile. And our argument is not that moa is powerful, but that it does not make you helpless, which is what many believe without studying the actual skills and capabilities of moa.

Dondagora.9645:

silentnight warrior.2714:

What Moa needs its 2 things. After that its balanced.

- Cannot be casted while in stealth.
- Can be refleted. (This could be a huge buff to the mesmer because acording to these forums Moa is very powerfull).

First thing is fine, second is… well, troll-ish. Assuming you’re not joking, I’d argue that reflect is for projectiles, and moa is no projectile. And our argument is not that moa is powerful, but that it does not make you helpless, which is what many believe without studying the actual skills and capabilities of moa.

Of course i was troling on the second one.

If you read all the post here defending that elite you get the impression that Moa form is so powerfull to the morphed player that when a mesmer cast it its game over for the mesmer.

With this in mind a reflected moa is a Buff to mesmers…. lol

xDudisx.5914:

jihm.2315:

say what ever you want once it lands its an i win button , outplaying a mesmer for the whole fight suddenly he stealths or switch position or what the hell they do and he wins because he landed a single skill.
give to all classes a skill that turn others into a useless animal and i will be ok.

Moa need’s some rework. Maybe reduce the duration to 6seconds. Or let the enemy use utilities. Shatter mesmer right now is already god mode without even using moa, moa just makes it even more faceroll.

Wait, Shatter Mesmer is faceroll? Have you ever played Shatter mesmer?

shatter mesmer is opposite of faceroll, it’s much harder to play compared to other burst specs.

Glymph of elemental in a comparison:
Press a million buttons and doesn’t do kitten.

Can you stop crying about an elite which actually can be dodged (mesmer wasted the elite and has to deal with insane cooldown while you pressed one key). It can be blocked by some random aegis. If somehow you managed to not notice the sound and animation, you can still roll your face on the keyboard and hope to win (it’s all you must be doing anyway).

The only reason this skill is not OP is because it can be blocked, evaded, obstructed, if the mesmer is blind, it will miss, etc.

Complete waste of an elite if for whatever reason it fails to connect to the target.

xDudisx.5914:

Moa also removes all the minions of a necro and put them on cd. This another example of how broken the skill is.

I think when the whole community says “its fine” then its probably fine. This is one of the few posts on the whole forum in which 99% of everyone actually agrees on something.

Pro tip: From now on when you get moa’d just pretend its a new profession that you can only play for small amounts of time at random intervals.

Not everyone agrees, not by a long shot.
I remember when the game first came out people were arguing that elites shoudn’t be as powerful as they are (an I win button) if you want a fair and competitive game.
The three biggest offenders are crate, moa and lich form; all three force you to leave the area if possible and the last 2 will guarantee a win in an organized team spike, pretty much the opposite of balance.

dylan.5409:

Not everyone agrees, not by a long shot.
I remember when the game first came out people were arguing that elites shoudn’t be as powerful as they are (an I win button) if you want a fair and competitive game.
The three biggest offenders are crate, moa and lich form; all three force you to leave the area if possible and the last 2 will guarantee a win in an organized team spike, pretty much the opposite of balance.

I have to agree with this. These offensive Elites seem to dwarf the more defensive ones offering little or no counterplay.

Maybe OP or someone else should make a thread asking opinions on what methods are best for countering Elites. Maybe there are plenty of players out there that have “I win counter methods” for them.

Out of everyone i play with in PVP and WVW i cant think of a single person that has a problem with moa other than the fact that it is constantly dodged, blocked, immuned, etc…

Good player that uses moa kills you point.
Moa at present is too strong, the streets are 3:

1) Change the entire elite
2) Strengthen skills to transformed
3) Reduce its length up to 4-6 seconds

Moa is not overpowered at all, its just amazing in this self sustaining meta we are in. With everyone having their own sustain due to the cele meta, there isn’t a single designated person that can peel/heal the moa unlike the previous meta where bunker guards could easily defend a moa with sanctuary/virtues/lines etc…..

To those would complain about getting moaed 1v1, it is on a 180 sec cd, which is the same cd as lich form for necro. I would gladly take a moa 1v1 rather then losing someone instantly in the beginning of a team fight.

Basically, stop complaining about moa when your builds and comps are weak against it. If you don’t want to adapt to it, stop crying.

DejaVu.9825:

Good player that uses moa kills you point.
Moa at present is too strong, the streets are 3:

1) Change the entire elite
2) Strengthen skills to transformed
3) Reduce its length up to 4-6 seconds

So why top mesmers (I think they are “Good players”) use MI instead of Moa?

Anton.1769:

DejaVu.9825:

Good player that uses moa kills you point.
Moa at present is too strong, the streets are 3:

1) Change the entire elite
2) Strengthen skills to transformed
3) Reduce its length up to 4-6 seconds

So why top mesmers (I think they are “Good players”) use MI instead of Moa?

^ This.

If moa morph is an"I win" button,
Where is the footage of the top teams from all of our recent tournament games using Moa Morph.

Don’t worry we will all wait for you to pull it up.

Not that I agree with dudis but I don’t think anet is just leaving MM like that. MM isn’t good enough to require an 100 % shutdown counter like moa. You shouldn’t be able to use minion skills but the shouldn’t just disappear.

I’d far prefer kitten lasting Moa Morph tbh.
Iff in turn it is made more useful so that I can actually utilize it. 5 targets in 180-240 radius, maybe.

Even better, make it go crazy on friend-or-foe.
For X seconds, target player can hit their allies with their attacks (this’d work in PvE, too).

xDudisx.5914:

Anton.1769:

xDudisx.5914:

Dondagora.9645:

jihm.2315:

ok give all classes a skill that is not always useful but once it lands you have a 90% of killing the enemy

Necro>>Lich
Warrior>>Burst/Rampage
Ranger>>Rapid Fire/Entangle
Engi>>Supply Crate
Thief>>Heart Seeker

Not “I win button”, but the win-rate is probably the same.

All the examples you gave let you still make use of your skills, utilities and have some counters.

lich: remove stability and chain cc, reflect his projectiles, use line of sight,….
most burst skills are ok and balanced. rampage: when was the last time you have seen a warrior using it?
ranger: 1 condi clear, teleport or destroy the vines and you are free. you can reflect rapid fire, staff eles do it all the time
supply crate: this one is close to moa but at least you still have your skills to use,
heartseeker: it is not op,

moa: you cant use your weapon skills, cant use utilities, cant use your class mechanics. without that you nullify the enemy entire build and traits that synergize with the active usage of skills.

moa: It can be blocked/blinded/evaded. Not enough? Ok. At moa form you can evade, use leap and “charge” with evade effect.

btw, look at topics xDudisx creates: “nerf zerk mesmer”, “nerf zerk necro” and …“add critical effect to healing”. Can you guess hiss class? Right, guardian.

Can people stop making assumptions and saying stuff they don’t know? I have 1 of each class. And have already played with almost all the meta/cheese builds around, MM necro, Turret engi, celestial hambow, celestial elementalist, sw+dg thief, celestial engineer, etc. In pve my main in zerker staff ele. In wvw I rotate between guardian/war/ele zerg or any other in roaming build. Are you happy now? Or do you think everyone is obligated to have the same point of view as you?

Well when you constantly cry about mesmer’s..

And argue that shatter mesmer needs to be nerfed because you don’t understand the class.

It becomes pretty apparent to most people that you have little to no experience actually playing against a certain class…or with other classes that actually counter said class..
In your case.
It’s the mesmer.

If you were good at Cele- you would counter mesmer
If you were good at medi guard.- you would counter mesmer.
If you were good at s/d thief- you would counter a mesmer.

You say you play meta builds but you constantly complain about classes, and argue points you honestly don’t know.
Like saying mesmer does “OP” shatter damage at range (me and a few others got a nice laugh at that)

It’s not that people want you to have the same opinion.
Most people want you to be informed and actually have a clue before you make baseless and pointless threads about issue’s the pvp community got over 2 years ago.

NeXeD.3042:

Not that I agree with dudis but I don’t think anet is just leaving MM like that. MM isn’t good enough to require an 100 % shutdown counter like moa. You shouldn’t be able to use minion skills but the shouldn’t just disappear.

MM is mostly annoying because your AI wins battles for you, its the passive build people have grown to dislike.
MM is a pub stomper, so hotjoin hero’s will cry about it.

Kind of like how people cry about moa.

I’M Moaed!

Press 2 on mesmer! Press 3 on mesmer, Spam 1 on mesmer! mesmer is dead!

Yay!

Relentliss.2170:

I have to agree with this. These offensive Elites seem to dwarf the more defensive ones offering little or no counterplay.

I main engie and used to think crate was balanced, but in conquest pvp, it is not really well balanced, and fully traited, it’s pure troll. The only thing that does balance it is being able to walk away from it… but the engineer can leave it on a point, with other turrets. That’s just dumb, in my opinion.

Let me reiterate, I main engie, and it needs balanced a bit.

Never really had trouble when i’ve been transformed i use Flee and use two dodges afterwards to give myself some distance (hopefully). By then i should either have my own personal space or i’m pretty much screwed. Haha.

lunyboy.8672:

Let me reiterate, I main engie, and it needs balanced a bit.

Why not just leave and come back with a friend to clear it and kill the Engi?
I mean, I want stronger elites, I’m happy for things like Time Warp, Crate or Rezz Banneer which are strong already. Buff the rest up to be similarly powerful.

Carighan.6758:

lunyboy.8672:

Let me reiterate, I main engie, and it needs balanced a bit.

Why not just leave and come back with a friend to clear it and kill the Engi?
I mean, I want stronger elites, I’m happy for things like Time Warp, Crate or Rezz Banneer which are strong already. Buff the rest up to be similarly powerful.

To be fair though, out of all mentioned, I would improve Lich a bit, since it is kind of a one-trick pony with not much depth… Most people use a bunch of 1’s (since it is not set on auto), and an occasional #3 & #5… They could do better to split the power of Lich amongst all skills imho…

But I agree, it is the same with all underused utilities and not just elites… It isn’t as much that most utilities are bad, it is just that they are underpeforming when compared to other utilities and elites, so I would love to see all of them being brought at the same level… Imagine a Conjure Ele being a thing! I would personally be really happy