Necro self healing in DeathShroud

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Posted by: zapv.8051

zapv.8051

If you read the necromancer forum, you would realize most necromancer players agree that the traits, parasitic bond, parasitic contagion, vampiric, vampiric precision, vampiric master, and vampiric rituals should all heal the necromancers base health while the necromancer is in DeathShroud. The necromancer players agree to this because necromancers sustain (not tankiness, sustain) is terrible and it is impossible to heal over the course of a fight on the class. I want to ask what other classes think of this change.
Do you think necros would become sustain monsters that are unkillable?

Do you think nerfs to other areas would be necessary? If so list them?

What other general thoughts do you have on the change?

Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Sagat.3285

Need it because refilling your true HP is better than soaking damage and suits necro more(traited healing including regen).

First in my opinion(adding over time):
-Reduction of LF pool by 33-47%
-Life blast cast time reduced to half a second
-Axe AA vulnerability duration reduced to 6 secs,based damage increase by 17%
-Staff AA projectile velocity increase by 33%
-Reaper’s Precision increase to 66%
-Life transfer pulses 4 times damage unchanged
-Dagger AA stack LF with 2 foes
-Natural life force degeneration reduced by 25%
-Unholy Sanctuary heals from incoming direct damage 5-7%
-Feast of Corruption gives 4% LF per condi
-Unyielding Blast vulnerability duration reduced to 6 secs
-Reaper’s Might might reduced to 10 sec

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

(edited by Sagat.3285)

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Posted by: Talonblaze.3175

Talonblaze.3175

Unholy Sanctuary was a good start in my opinion.

It’s not over the top, but it provides a nice little bonus for the class mechanic that many wanted to begin with in DS such as self healing.

Most people will still however say its far too weak. Personally I think better scaling with possibly HP would be better.

But overall, healing in DS isn’t the overall problem. What will be the problem is of course, how much.

The thing is, if other healing sources become too good, the Necro’s sustain will be overdone and heavy nerfs will come to pass.

Duty is heavier than death.

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Posted by: Amins.3710

Amins.3710

Unholy Sanctuary should have been: You receive 25% of incoming healing while in DS.

Simple.

Amins – Guardian
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Posted by: zapv.8051

zapv.8051

Need it because refilling your true HP is better than soaking damage and suits necro more.

First in my opinion(adding over time):
-Reduction of LF pool by 33-47%
-Life blast cast time reduced to half a second
-

I’ve had similar thought about LF pool reduction, but they would need to buff the life force generation to match the current values. I think life blast being a half second would be way to strong, necros could get 25 might and 25 vulnerability casually with that.

Unholy Sanctuary was a good start in my opinion.

It’s not over the top, but it provides a nice little bonus for the class mechanic that many wanted to begin with in DS such as self healing.

Most people will still however say its far too weak. Personally I think better scaling with possibly HP would be better.

But overall, healing in DS isn’t the overall problem. What will be the problem is of course, how much.

The thing is, if other healing sources become too good, the Necro’s sustain will be overdone and heavy nerfs will come to pass.

I like the idea of Unholy Sanctuary, but when I think about it in comparison to backpack regenerator, or adrenal health I don’t see why anyone would think it is strong. At best your gonna spend 50% of your fighting time in DS, so I think it needs to be stronger to compensate for that. As far as the amount of healing in DS, I agree that will be the main issue, but I’d rather see this change then a few small nerfs as opposed to the class staying stale as it is now.

Unholy Sanctuary should have been: You receive 25% of incoming healing while in DS.

Simple.

The problem with that is it doesn’t solve necros individual sustain problems. In group fights the class would be better, but if you wanted Unholy Sanctuary and the siphon traits your talking about sacrificing 10/14 traits just to get good sustain. IMO any class should be able to invest 6 trait points and have some decent sustain. Eles, engineers, warriors, and thieves can all do this in their meta builds.

Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.

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Posted by: jcbroe.4329

jcbroe.4329

I’m honestly not really sure why necros don’t get to heal in Death Shroud. I mean, the traits mentioned are already low singular heal values with pretty difficult to work with scaling, and the class itself has very poor mobility and and defensive capabilities outside of deathshroud (imo).

You would think that the least that could be done is make the siphon traits not so situational.

Anyhow, that’s my viewpoint from a non-necro main perspective. I don’t see how this could even be harmful to the balance spectrum.

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Posted by: Ragnar the Rock.3174

Ragnar the Rock.3174

I’m honestly not really sure why necros don’t get to heal in Death Shroud. I mean, the traits mentioned are already low singular heal values with pretty difficult to work with scaling, and the class itself has very poor mobility and and defensive capabilities outside of deathshroud (imo).

You would think that the least that could be done is make the siphon traits not so situational.

Anyhow, that’s my viewpoint from a non-necro main perspective. I don’t see how this could even be harmful to the balance spectrum.

This ^ more or less.

Life siphons, health steals etc…(from traits, sigils & runes) should heal your base health pool while in death shroud.

Other heals are highly debatable, I would doubt they should work.

Also where the vampiric rituals trait is concerned, I think that given its a grand master trait it should be better.
What if it caused all attacks to stealth heal & share said health with nearby allies?
That would give the necro some decent support via healing over time.

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Posted by: Muchacho.2390

Muchacho.2390

I’m honestly not really sure why necros don’t get to heal in Death Shroud. I mean, the traits mentioned are already low singular heal values with pretty difficult to work with scaling, and the class itself has very poor mobility and and defensive capabilities outside of deathshroud (imo).

You would think that the least that could be done is make the siphon traits not so situational.

Anyhow, that’s my viewpoint from a non-necro main perspective. I don’t see how this could even be harmful to the balance spectrum.

This ^ more or less.

Life siphons, health steals etc…(from traits, sigils & runes) should heal your base health pool while in death shroud.

Other heals are highly debatable, I would doubt they should work.

Also where the vampiric rituals trait is concerned, I think that given its a grand master trait it should be better.
What if it caused all attacks to stealth heal & share said health with nearby allies?
That would give the necro some decent support via healing over time.

I agree with all of that.

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Posted by: Narkodx.1472

Narkodx.1472

Not much debate to be had here besdies what the hell is taking Anet so long

It is simply BACKWARDS to spend trait points to gain sustain ala bloodmagic and not have it work when you potentially need it most – eating a burst while in deathshroud

Blood Magic minors and Grandmasters are complete trash since beta
Spite minors are complete trash since beta

We are waiting Anet…

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Posted by: Burjis.3087

Burjis.3087

While I agree that the Blood Magic line needs a big rework, I have to say that making the life leeching traits heal you in death shroud is a bit too much at their current rate. At the same time, the healing they do at their current state is simply not worth sacrificing points that could go in other areas into blood magic.

Everlasting Sacred Path [ESP] (www.espguild.com)

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

While I agree that the Blood Magic line needs a big rework, I have to say that making the life leeching traits heal you in death shroud is a bit too much at their current rate. At the same time, the healing they do at their current state is simply not worth sacrificing points that could go in other areas into blood magic.

So…despite being worthless numbers, they’d be too strong if they worked in death shroud? What?

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Posted by: Avigrus.2871

Avigrus.2871

While I agree that the Blood Magic line needs a big rework, I have to say that making the life leeching traits heal you in death shroud is a bit too much at their current rate. At the same time, the healing they do at their current state is simply not worth sacrificing points that could go in other areas into blood magic.

The healing from blood magic is pathetic at best… i don’t see how it would be a bit much.

Overpowered 35hp a tick heals… lol

80 Necro (5), 80 Guard (4), 80 Mesmer (3)
80 Ranger (3), 80 Warrior (3), 80 Thief (3)
80 Ele (2), 80 Engi (3), 80 Rev (2)

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

if they buff deathshroud sustain then they will have to nerf minionmancer, which is fine by me but not so much for a lot of other people.

-Life blast cast time reduced to half a second

lol. no.

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Posted by: Mikau.6920

Mikau.6920

I rather have new sources of Stability than healing in DS. The healing skills already are weak, so healing in DS will be still weak. And I have more problems with stun lock than life.

Sorry for my english.

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Posted by: Muchacho.2390

Muchacho.2390

I rather have new sources of Stability than healing in DS. The healing skills already are weak, so healing in DS will be still weak. And I have more problems with stun lock than life.

After the newest Ready-up i think healing in DS is more likely then getting other sources of stability…

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

if they buff deathshroud sustain then they will have to nerf minionmancer, which is fine by me but not so much for a lot of other people.

They don’t need to nerf MM, all they would do is nerf Vampiric Master’s healing a little due to it now healing you more often. Other than that there would be no change to MM, since they only have one source of siphoning they’d access in DS.

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Sagat.3285

I rather have new sources of Stability than healing in DS. The healing skills already are weak, so healing in DS will be still weak. And I have more problems with stun lock than life.

Very unlikely, technically necro can trait for good stabilty uptime like thief ….The goal is not strong healing but real sustain I am still cracking my head on why the’ve never allowed and balanced it before game release.

I am thinking range and maybe cc are necro’s designed weaknesses. Not sure if the changes I proposed are the best but that’s bad design anyway, how does a mechanism counter it’s class traits.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

(edited by Sagat.3285)

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Posted by: zapv.8051

zapv.8051

I rather have new sources of Stability than healing in DS. The healing skills already are weak, so healing in DS will be still weak. And I have more problems with stun lock than life.

After the newest Ready-up i think healing in DS is more likely then getting other sources of stability…

I am kind of troubled by their statements in the ready up. Necros lack stability, in combat mobility, and sustain. Personally, I believe necros need at least 2 of those, to balance them overall in the game. Necros damage might have to be brought down for 2 of those things, but that’s ok because it would bring necros in line with other classes. The problem is that Anet has said they don’t what necros to be mobile and they don’t want necros to be stable. They site that necros are a caster class and should stay at range, but seem to ignore that necros have 2 weapons that are less than 600 range, which is a range that can be easily closed by any other melee class. They also ignore that eles with d/d are melee as well as sword mesmers are melee casters. Both of those classes also have mobility, and a lot of damage mitigation and sustain through stealth and healing. Necros either need stability access on a utility or dark path to be reverted to a ground target teleport. Then they need sustain. If necros had that they could be balanced. Until then, necros will either deal too much damage or have to little resistance to focus fire.

Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.

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Posted by: Tim.6450

Tim.6450

I am kind of troubled by their statements in the ready up. Necros lack stability, in combat mobility, and sustain. Personally, I believe necros need at least 2 of those, to balance them overall in the game. Necros damage might have to be brought down for 2 of those things, but that’s ok because it would bring necros in line with other classes. The problem is that Anet has said they don’t what necros to be mobile and they don’t want necros to be stable. They site that necros are a caster class and should stay at range, but seem to ignore that necros have 2 weapons that are less than 600 range, which is a range that can be easily closed by any other melee class. They also ignore that eles with d/d are melee as well as sword mesmers are melee casters. Both of those classes also have mobility, and a lot of damage mitigation and sustain through stealth and healing. Necros either need stability access on a utility or dark path to be reverted to a ground target teleport. Then they need sustain. If necros had that they could be balanced. Until then, necros will either deal too much damage or have to little resistance to focus fire.

I share the same opinion, but I want to add that I’m a bit more troubled that they implied/said that death shroud and siphons, should be able to help against cc. You can’t really siphon if you are cc’ed. Death shroud on the other hand has no effect on CC and you are even without stunbreakers in death shroud which doesn’t really help.

EverythingOP

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

ah youre right Bhawb.

i was assuming blood fiend, water/blood sigils, and regen was allowed as well. might be a good idea to not skim OP…

i still think its a bad idea though. it mainly buffs mm, which doesnt need a buff, and doesnt do anything for power/condi mancer.

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Posted by: sorrychief.2563

sorrychief.2563

They also ignore that eles with d/d are melee as well as sword mesmers are melee casters. Both of those classes also have mobility, and a lot of damage mitigation and sustain through stealth and healing.

Because those classes have less base HP compared to necro and don’t have a 2nd healthbar. They also lack the boatload of soft CC necro has and neither have the Fear uptime as a Necro does. Necro also has unblockable aoes (+ a sweet unblockable aoe daze) that basically punish people for standing in a certain spot for too long (think of a game format where people sumo wrestle over a point as the primary game objective).

If you want sustain, pair up with a Guardian or put a energy sigil in one of your weapons. This is “Guild”(teamplay) Wars afterall.

champion magus
previously rank 2 on old leaderboards
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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

ah youre right Bhawb.

i was assuming blood fiend, water/blood sigils, and regen was allowed as well. might be a good idea to not skim OP…

i still think its a bad idea though. it mainly buffs mm, which doesnt need a buff, and doesnt do anything for power/condi mancer.

Blood Fiend is awful, the only sigils that MMs use are on-swap, and regen isn’t that big of a deal. It really doesn’t change much for MM at all, honestly, and any changes it does make can simply be taken out of Vampiric Master’s sustain if it is too much.

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Posted by: zapv.8051

zapv.8051

They also ignore that eles with d/d are melee as well as sword mesmers are melee casters. Both of those classes also have mobility, and a lot of damage mitigation and sustain through stealth and healing.

Because those classes have less base HP compared to necro and don’t have a 2nd healthbar. They also lack the boatload of soft CC necro has and neither have the Fear uptime as a Necro does. Necro also has unblockable aoes (+ a sweet unblockable aoe daze) that basically punish people for standing in a certain spot for too long (think of a game format where people sumo wrestle over a point as the primary game objective).

If you want sustain, pair up with a Guardian or put a energy sigil in one of your weapons. This is “Guild”(teamplay) Wars afterall.

They have less hp fair enough, they also have stealth, invulns, and vigor uptime to more than make up for that.

Really, eles don’t have soft cc? Frozen burst 15 second cooldown, frost aura 40 second cooldown, magnetic grasp 12 second cooldown. That’s a ton of soft cc right there. They don’t have much hard cc though I’ll give you that. Mesmers don’t have a lot of soft cc, but have way more hard cc than any other class. Guess you haven’t ever played a lockdown mesmer.

Also no class should have to pair up with another class to have sustain. There aren’t any classes besides necros that have to rely on another class for sustain and cc avoidance. Having one class that has to have another class taken to guard it is absurd. That means you have to justify taking 2 classes to get necros in a team. Teamplay is great, but babysitting isn’t teamplay, it is poor design.

Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.

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Posted by: Anubis.7058

Anubis.7058

Isnt a equally important thing to make signets work in DS?

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Isnt a equally important thing to make signets work in DS?

Not really. What is being argued specifically is that trait choices shouldn’t be negated by the class mechanic. When you go into Death Shroud, you have nothing on skills 6-0, which is where signets are all found. Plus, signet passives generally aren’t that impactful.

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Posted by: sorrychief.2563

sorrychief.2563

They have less hp fair enough, they also have stealth, invulns, and vigor uptime to more than make up for that.

you just kinda copied what I wrote except you’re further reinforcing everything that permits the low base HP classes to have these extra tools in order to survive.

if you give necro evades and vigor, you would surely have to give thief more base HP to compensate!

Really, eles don’t have soft cc?

well now you’re just be a silly goose and not reading my prior post throughly.

Mesmers don’t have a lot of soft cc, but have way more hard cc than any other class. Guess you haven’t ever played a lockdown mesmer.

that’s a pretty weak argument and doesn’t validate much besides the fact “I haver never played this specific mesmer build which does this specific function while comparing it to another class in general”.

spot on though.

Also no class should have to pair up with another class to have sustain.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Water_field
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blast_finisher

just remove all synergy and call it “League of Legend(s)”. game has 1 class with every ability so nobody can complain their class is weaker/stronger.

Teamplay is great, but babysitting isn’t teamplay, it is poor design.

Babysitting under your terms infer there is active teamplay happening regardless.
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Role#Support
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=351

Unless teamplay is bad in a game called ‘Guild Wars’?

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Posted by: Anubis.7058

Anubis.7058

They have less hp fair enough, they also have stealth, invulns, and vigor uptime to more than make up for that.

you just kinda copied what I wrote except you’re further reinforcing everything that permits the low base HP classes to have these extra tools in order to survive.

if you give necro evades and vigor, you would surely have to give thief more base HP to compensate!

Really, eles don’t have soft cc?

well now you’re just be a silly goose and not reading my prior post throughly.

Mesmers don’t have a lot of soft cc, but have way more hard cc than any other class. Guess you haven’t ever played a lockdown mesmer.

that’s a pretty weak argument and doesn’t validate much besides the fact “I haver never played this specific mesmer build which does this specific function while comparing it to another class in general”.

spot on though.

Also no class should have to pair up with another class to have sustain.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Water_field
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blast_finisher

just remove all synergy and call it “League of Legend(s)”. game has 1 class with every ability so nobody can complain their class is weaker/stronger.

Teamplay is great, but babysitting isn’t teamplay, it is poor design.

Babysitting under your terms infer there is active teamplay happening regardless.
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Role#Support
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=351

Unless teamplay is bad in a game called ‘Guild Wars’?

So many fallacies.

A) Active defense to avoid damage vs active agression to replenish damage done can be compared, necro lack it (hard). Thats why noone in their right mind is proposing mass evades *cough death blossom/WD/fstrike/4 dodges instead of 2 like thief * or block spam *like pretty much everything guardian *, but real siphon + synergy with DS.

B) Not true, if a build exists which can do something based on its skill options and intended mechanics, you have it, in contrast to for exmaple mesmers which can both go into very very deep condi removal and hard cc, necros can never build/give up other factors of their play (like for example reducing your own life force potential) to get actual mobility or self sustain (self is important here since with current broken ai, MM got the numbers for “compensation” to do it right)

C) No profession depends on ally combo fields to function, those with skill cap increase by them (ele and engie) have solo functionality to sustain it, necro dont, thus no its not teamplay to finish your own combo fields.

D) League of Legends (and Dota) have some of the highest team synergy aspects of all games *cough Dragonball and Epic-hole respectively winning quite a lot of tournaments during their meta time * yet almost all (soraka in league and io in dota) characters are self sufficient.

E) GW2 isnt designed in a “mage carry, warrior tank, drood support” lineup, thus is not part of teamplay, but bad design choice of a specific profession.

(edited by Anubis.7058)

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Posted by: GoogleBrandon.5073

GoogleBrandon.5073

E) GW2 isnt designed in a “mage carry, warrior tank, drood support” lineup, thus is not part of teamplay, but bad design choice of a specific profession.

I want to elaborate on this, and indeed the point that Anubis is trying to make…

Team Synergy is good, there is nothing wrong with it at all, but Forcing Roles is; When you say you “Need” a Guardian to specifcially support a Necromancer to make it work, something is wrong, especially if the other 7/8 classes do not have to rely on another class to make their sustain work…

Anyway, synergy and support between classes should be encouraged but not a necessity, as this game has been designed in a way that any class could “sustain itself” – that is why all classes have a slot for a healing skill by default…
However, synergy within the traits of a class should by default not cancel the mechanic of a class – and this is a major, if not the major issue with Necromancers when it comes to sustain… It’s own sustain mechanics, siphons and DS, do not work together, while no other class has something as wonky as this…

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Posted by: Liewec.2896

Liewec.2896

i don’t agree that things like water field blasts and outside heals should heal the necro,
that would be OP.

but vampiric syphons could still work without making necro OP

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Posted by: flow.6043

flow.6043

i don’t agree that things like water field blasts and outside heals should heal the necro,
that would be OP.

Care to elaborate on that?

I really don’t get why people would want to make a distinction between different sources of healing when it comes to Death Shroud.
Every source should go through DS 100%, period.
Only allowing self heals not only overcomplicates the issue (again), but it is an even worse discrimination against necros than not being able to heal in DS at all.
Why shouldn’t necros get the benefits of ally healing at all time? Aren’t all other classes able to do so as well? Are you suggesting that if this was possible everyone would do nothing but heal necros once they see black smoke? And even if they would, do you think necros wouldn’t be the first target in any team fight anyway because of their lack of stability and disengages? If anything, necros need it the most.

Also, I think most people completely overestimate how much healing it would take to really sustain a necro.
Half the time necros get those heals anyway, so we’re really just talking about a part of of those heals that are wasted on a time frame when – ironically – necros are trying to defend themselves. So the next time you’re on a necro and get focused (or you are the one killing the necro), ask yourself: how long were you/they in DS and how much hp would they have had to heal in order to survive a little longer?
And keep in mind, we’re talking about hp pools in the 18-25k range for a class that has no blocks/invuln/stealth or other means of defense but that big hp pool. In that context 1.4k hp from a waterfield blast is almost nothing.

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Posted by: Liewec.2896

Liewec.2896

i don’t agree that things like water field blasts and outside heals should heal the necro,
that would be OP.

Care to elaborate on that?

I really don’t get why people would want to make a distinction between different sources of healing when it comes to Death Shroud.
Every source should go through DS 100%, period.
Only allowing self heals not only overcomplicates the issue (again), but it is an even worse discrimination against necros than not being able to heal in DS at all.
Why shouldn’t necros get the benefits of ally healing at all time? Aren’t all other classes able to do so as well? Are you suggesting that if this was possible everyone would do nothing but heal necros once they see black smoke? And even if they would, do you think necros wouldn’t be the first target in any team fight anyway because of their lack of stability and disengages? If anything, necros need it the most.

Also, I think most people completely overestimate how much healing it would take to really sustain a necro.
Half the time necros get those heals anyway, so we’re really just talking about a part of of those heals that are wasted on a time frame when – ironically – necros are trying to defend themselves. So the next time you’re on a necro and get focused (or you are the one killing the necro), ask yourself: how long were you/they in DS and how much hp would they have had to heal in order to survive a little longer?
And keep in mind, we’re talking about hp pools in the 18-25k range for a class that has no blocks/invuln/stealth or other means of defense but that big hp pool. In that context 1.4k hp from a waterfield blast is almost nothing.

well i play a power necro primarily tailored towards sustaining and recharging death shroud for as long as possible, in 1v1s with a whole life force bar (which i regen quite quickly) i can turtle my whole heal cooldown, now imagine throwing in all of the healing from support eles, or healing springs or healing turrets or spam water field blasts, it would be ridiculously OP.
small heals from life syphons are ok (and would add a reason to go deeper in the blood trait tree), giving the necro a little bit more sustain.
large heals would be game changing, deathshroud becomes a fight reset button.

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Posted by: GoogleBrandon.5073

GoogleBrandon.5073

well i play a power necro primarily tailored towards sustaining and recharging death shroud for as long as possible, in 1v1s with a whole life force bar (which i regen quite quickly) i can turtle my whole heal cooldown, now imagine throwing in all of the healing from support eles, or healing springs or healing turrets or spam water field blasts, it would be ridiculously OP.
small heals from life syphons are ok (and would add a reason to go deeper in the blood trait tree), giving the necro a little bit more sustain.
large heals would be game changing, deathshroud becomes a fight reset button.

To be fair, I am not particularly against or for healing in Deathshroud, but the things like blasting waterfields and recieving some regens is something I already do with my friends – granted, I get out of Deathshroud but that is it… I go out, recieve the spike heal, and jump in when I can again…

Recieving these heals require coordination and some teamplay anyway, or your buff will be in vain… Like Flow said, 1.4k is not much when you look at the Healthpool of a Zerk Necromancer even…

I personally think it is a bit of a far stretch to say whether it is OP or not – and the only way it can be shown if it is, is making it happen… After all DS and Siphons are the reason why protective mechanics which other classes have are not available naturally on a Necromancer – but none of the other classes are locked out of the support from the team because of their own sustaining mechanics…

Though siphons and Deathshroud synergizing would be a good start – hell, even Dagger #2 reworked is a good start, but I will refrain by saying team support working within DS is OP untill the class is able to sustain itself the way it is designed…

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Posted by: flow.6043

flow.6043

well i play a power necro primarily tailored towards sustaining and recharging death shroud for as long as possible, in 1v1s with a whole life force bar (which i regen quite quickly) i can turtle my whole heal cooldown

To your benefit I’ll assume you’re using Vital Persistance. That means even if your lf pool was full before going into DS you’d lose 50% lf by natural degeneration, and only so little if you healed right before going in and immediately leaving after the 25 sec cd was up. Of course you could regen some lf while in DS but for the sake of simplifying the whole thing let’s just say your opponent in those 1v1s has to damage you for about 50% of your total life force pool in 25 seconds.
I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this by now: your opponent sucks hard.

now imagine throwing in all of the healing from support eles, or healing springs or healing turrets or spam water field blasts, it would be ridiculously OP.
small heals from life syphons are ok (and would add a reason to go deeper in the blood trait tree), giving the necro a little bit more sustain.
large heals would be game changing, deathshroud becomes a fight reset button.

Why? Other classes benefit from ally healing just the same. And like I said earlier, a few waterfield blasts is by no means resetting anything. What most people consider a “large heal” is somewhere in the range of 3k or more? Big deal, you go into DS with 1k hp and come out with 4k. That’s not game changing at all, you’re merely 2 hits away from being downed instead of just one.

Also, since your argument was about a 1v1 originally and then I was supposed to imagine a support player comes and heals you, you must at this point assume that it’s at least a 2v2 now. I’m sure you’re not suggesting that anyone is op because they won an outnumbered fight.
So in that situation, again: every other class always get the full amount of ally healing while having defensive abilities that scale a lot better in team fights than just a high health pool. So please, really think about it, why on earth would any of it be op for necros?

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Posted by: sorrychief.2563

sorrychief.2563

great arguments all around. anet must be interested in reading this topic.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I do feel I should remind everyone that, up until this point, Necros have had their survivability balanced on the assumption that they are not getting healed while in death shroud. Totally unrestricted healing in Death Shroud would, at this point, be overpowered. Maybe not massively so, but it would, with the current game, be too much.

The necro’s self-healing traits do need to be changed to function in Death Shroud. It is bad design that they currently do not.

I would argue the Regeneration Boon also needs to function in Death Shroud, because right now, the boon is a pure liability for necros in death shroud. They get zero benefit, but it can be used against them with things like Destruction of the Empowered, Spinal Shivers, or Arcane Thievery.

Everything else related to healing in Death Shroud should be put off until these happen and can be evaluated in a live environment.

Oh, and a party UI change to let allies know when you’re in death shroud, not losing health.

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Posted by: GoogleBrandon.5073

GoogleBrandon.5073

Everything else related to healing in Death Shroud should be put off until these happen and can be evaluated in a live environment.

This is my sentiment mostly as well… First I want to see how siphons and respective new and cool builds work out ~ after that we will just have to see what can be tweaked…

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

While siphon values right now are rather pathetic at best (I’ve used more accurate terms to describe them in the past), They would become much more valuable if they functioned in death shroud. We might be surprised and find out that existing values are actually sufficient. I doubt this, but it is a possibility.

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Posted by: flow.6043

flow.6043

I do feel I should remind everyone that, up until this point, Necros have had their survivability balanced on the assumption that they are not getting healed while in death shroud.

Don’t make me laugh.
First of all, you can’t really balance the timing of aoe heals in team fights from players other than the necro. How would you even do that? Just assume necros spend 50% of the time in DS, therefore healing received should be X? And even if they did, that’s not necro balancing, that’s balancing other classes’ heals. And it would imply that ally healing is way to strong for other classes who can receive it all the time.
As for the self heals, please… like vamp traits are balanced or even remotely viable at this point.
Secondly, the patch history of Death Shroud itself just seems to be a mess: if you recall it started out as a modification of a pre-release down state. In 2 years since then they still couldn’t iron out all the weird stuff. Only recently we got DS interaction. Stuff like 50% damage reduction unless you’re taking overflow damage still exists (which most necro players don’t even know).
As it appears, DS is in a place where it just happened to end up after receiving 100 little bandaids to the weird down state iteration it once was, rather than being purposely balanced to not allow healing.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

…You really don’t get it, do you?

Not getting healing in death shroud is not how death shroud itself was balanced, it’s how life force generation is balanced. Not quite the same thing, but very much tied together. With current life force generation, getting full healing while in death shroud very likely would be overpowered.

Now, I greatly agree that Necros need more methods of regaining health while in death shroud, but just flat-out allowing all healing is not the way to go. It needs to be done incrementally and evaluated.

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Posted by: Roe.3679

Roe.3679

I would like to see a necro specific boon like soothing mist that will work through death shroud. We have plenty of sources of regeneration, but none work in DS. I think that would also be an interesting idea.

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Posted by: GoogleBrandon.5073

GoogleBrandon.5073

I would like to see a necro specific boon like soothing mist that will work through death shroud. We have plenty of sources of regeneration, but none work in DS. I think that would also be an interesting idea.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Unholy Sanctuary designed to be that?

I am aware that it is far from the best trait, but I can see it work with the many suggestions to working siphons (and potentially regen) within DS…

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Posted by: Artaz.3819

Artaz.3819

Need it because refilling your true HP is better than soaking damage and suits necro more.

First in my opinion(adding over time):
-Reduction of LF pool by 33-47%
-Life blast cast time reduced to half a second
-

I’ve had similar thought about LF pool reduction, but they would need to buff the life force generation to match the current values. I think life blast being a half second would be way to strong, necros could get 25 might and 25 vulnerability casually with that.

Unholy Sanctuary was a good start in my opinion.

It’s not over the top, but it provides a nice little bonus for the class mechanic that many wanted to begin with in DS such as self healing.

Most people will still however say its far too weak. Personally I think better scaling with possibly HP would be better.

But overall, healing in DS isn’t the overall problem. What will be the problem is of course, how much.

The thing is, if other healing sources become too good, the Necro’s sustain will be overdone and heavy nerfs will come to pass.

I like the idea of Unholy Sanctuary, but when I think about it in comparison to backpack regenerator, or adrenal health I don’t see why anyone would think it is strong. At best your gonna spend 50% of your fighting time in DS, so I think it needs to be stronger to compensate for that. As far as the amount of healing in DS, I agree that will be the main issue, but I’d rather see this change then a few small nerfs as opposed to the class staying stale as it is now.

Unholy Sanctuary should have been: You receive 25% of incoming healing while in DS.

Simple.

The problem with that is it doesn’t solve necros individual sustain problems. In group fights the class would be better, but if you wanted Unholy Sanctuary and the siphon traits your talking about sacrificing 10/14 traits just to get good sustain. IMO any class should be able to invest 6 trait points and have some decent sustain. Eles, engineers, warriors, and thieves can all do this in their meta builds.

Need to be careful with the 10/14 point trait investment argument here because unlike the other classes, Necros are still getting some (albeit weak) offensive no-armor/no-condition reduction resistance damage as well. And it can be AoE ‘support’ healing related too.

Point being that comparison to 6/14 classes (arguable too) to get tank/sustain-role is not apples to apples.

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Posted by: Liewec.2896

Liewec.2896

well i play a power necro primarily tailored towards sustaining and recharging death shroud for as long as possible, in 1v1s with a whole life force bar (which i regen quite quickly) i can turtle my whole heal cooldown

To your benefit I’ll assume you’re using Vital Persistance. That means even if your lf pool was full before going into DS you’d lose 50% lf by natural degeneration, and only so little if you healed right before going in and immediately leaving after the 25 sec cd was up. Of course you could regen some lf while in DS but for the sake of simplifying the whole thing let’s just say your opponent in those 1v1s has to damage you for about 50% of your total life force pool in 25 seconds.
I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this by now: your opponent sucks hard.

now imagine throwing in all of the healing from support eles, or healing springs or healing turrets or spam water field blasts, it would be ridiculously OP.
small heals from life syphons are ok (and would add a reason to go deeper in the blood trait tree), giving the necro a little bit more sustain.
large heals would be game changing, deathshroud becomes a fight reset button.

Why? Other classes benefit from ally healing just the same. And like I said earlier, a few waterfield blasts is by no means resetting anything. What most people consider a “large heal” is somewhere in the range of 3k or more? Big deal, you go into DS with 1k hp and come out with 4k. That’s not game changing at all, you’re merely 2 hits away from being downed instead of just one.

Also, since your argument was about a 1v1 originally and then I was supposed to imagine a support player comes and heals you, you must at this point assume that it’s at least a 2v2 now. I’m sure you’re not suggesting that anyone is op because they won an outnumbered fight.
So in that situation, again: every other class always get the full amount of ally healing while having defensive abilities that scale a lot better in team fights than just a high health pool. So please, really think about it, why on earth would any of it be op for necros?

yep i use vital persistence, but also with the 100% crit chance i get from Deathly Perception combined with traited Locust Swarm and Reapers Precision,
i get 2.5% life force every second for each enemy within 210 for a total of 15 seconds.
thats close to half a bar of life force just from locust swarm,
plus i usually throw down my 2 wells before entering DS, (another 16% life force)
and the usual 14% from Life Transfer
i can stay in DS for a veeeery long time while i spam 3-4k life blasts.
all the while my health bar remaining nice and untouchable,

allowing me to be healed by anything more than the small life syphon heals would obviously be a bit over the top.

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Posted by: flow.6043

flow.6043

…You really don’t get it, do you?

it’s how life force generation is balanced.

I do get it, and imo you’re wrong. Healing should be allowed in full while lf regen could use a buff as well. Simple as that. And I’m quite shocked to see so many necro players making such a big deal out of it.

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

…You really don’t get it, do you?

it’s how life force generation is balanced.

I do get it, and imo you’re wrong. Healing should be allowed in full while lf regen could use a buff as well. Simple as that. And I’m quite shocked to see so many necro players making such a big deal out of it.

This.

If it is really so unbalanced then i would be fine with a further nerf to DS lifeforce pool. The core issues wont get solved unless anet drastically changes the necros options for defence and sustain.

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Posted by: zapv.8051

zapv.8051

…You really don’t get it, do you?

it’s how life force generation is balanced.

I do get it, and imo you’re wrong. Healing should be allowed in full while lf regen could use a buff as well. Simple as that. And I’m quite shocked to see so many necro players making such a big deal out of it.

While I don’t think it makes sense that allies can’t heal you in DS, there would need to be significant nerfs to DS to change it. Personally, I wish necros were a low tier health class with base 7k DS. Then they could give us really good LF generation, and siphons could be much stronger. The real problem is that with such a massive hp pool, necros would be really strong if they had too much sustain.

Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

So we’ll nerf Necromancer’s self healing again to force them to be more reliant on team support? Great…

How about we do the logical thing and make it one step at a time. Start off with self healing only, see how it goes, then evaluate all healing. But I guarantee we won’t see all healing going through DS without nerfs to LF generation, which will just make us even weaker on our own.

Personally, I wish necros were a low tier health class with base 7k DS.

This makes the least sense of any suggestion I’ve heard in a long time. A profession designed around face-tanking attacks cannot have low tier HP.

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Posted by: zapv.8051

zapv.8051

Personally, I wish necros were a low tier health class with base 7k DS.

This makes the least sense of any suggestion I’ve heard in a long time. A profession designed around face-tanking attacks cannot have low tier HP.

If necros could generate like 50-60% lifeforce every 10 seconds in any build it would make sense. Then DS would be the facetanking mechanic it is supposed to be.

Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.

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Posted by: Roe.3679

Roe.3679

I would like to see a necro specific boon like soothing mist that will work through death shroud. We have plenty of sources of regeneration, but none work in DS. I think that would also be an interesting idea.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Unholy Sanctuary designed to be that?

I am aware that it is far from the best trait, but I can see it work with the many suggestions to working siphons (and potentially regen) within DS…

It is, but what I’m referring to is something that isn’t “in DS” or “not in DS” specific, like regeneration and unholy sanctuary are now. I’d like it to be usable all the time, and maybe even give it to allies as a way to provide support.

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Posted by: GoogleBrandon.5073

GoogleBrandon.5073

I would like to see a necro specific boon like soothing mist that will work through death shroud. We have plenty of sources of regeneration, but none work in DS. I think that would also be an interesting idea.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Unholy Sanctuary designed to be that?

I am aware that it is far from the best trait, but I can see it work with the many suggestions to working siphons (and potentially regen) within DS…

It is, but what I’m referring to is something that isn’t “in DS” or “not in DS” specific, like regeneration and unholy sanctuary are now. I’d like it to be usable all the time, and maybe even give it to allies as a way to provide support.

Aaaaah, yea gotcha now

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