Guild Wars 2

xsquared.1926:

I have no idea if this has been suggested earlier, but what if we make the marks an on demand explode skill. Doing so allows you to fake out explosions, and catch groups of enemies by surprise. This also negates people being able to detonate marks by just dodging through them.

I was actually thinking of doing that for putrid mark. However, I feel like just making them explode immediately would also prove to be a bad design due to a lack of proper counterplay measures. At least it should have a 1-second delay with some sort of animation. I feel like making it spawn a bubble similar to a brown-tinted Guardian Sanctuary before exploding after 1 second would suffice. In any case, it would allow Necros to bait more enemies into their mark before blowing it up.

Swagg.9236:

xsquared.1926:

I have no idea if this has been suggested earlier, but what if we make the marks an on demand explode skill. Doing so allows you to fake out explosions, and catch groups of enemies by surprise. This also negates people being able to detonate marks by just dodging through them.

I was actually thinking of doing that for putrid mark. However, I feel like just making them explode immediately would also prove to be a bad design due to a lack of proper counterplay measures. At least it should have a 1-second delay with some sort of animation. I feel like making it spawn a bubble similar to a brown-tinted Guardian Sanctuary before exploding after 1 second would suffice. In any case, it would allow Necros to bait more enemies into their mark before blowing it up.

How about using the same animation as a guardian symbol pulse? Perhaps they could even incorporate a channel based mark. A quick tap would place the mark just like it is right now and would have the same cast time, wheras a longer held stage 2 channel would allow you to detonate the mark on command, but at the cost of an increasing cast time. Both should have an delay of one second before triggering.

I have no idea if this would actually work, this is just a small thought from the top of my head.

I’ll open it up to anyone here:

I think that Necromancer marks fall short of something truly interesting because they are all identical. I wonder if it wouldn’t be better to make the marks into different things. We have suggestions for bringing back something like the old Mark of Pain (something that we could do with the current game mechanics) among others. I’m also working on a few chain skills for marks to provide more utility (possibly mobility) to the Necromancer while using staff.

I would like to see suggestions on how exactly we keep up with our enemies, given the fact that you’re increasing/improving the leaps/charges/teleports on Guardians (and maybe others?), who aren’t meant to be terribly fast in combat, or to run away.

I respect your effort, but ever thought about the terrible traits, necros have?

Oh and i am not talking about dhuumfire here I think it is fine right now
Nefing it to only trigger on life blast is a too high nerf (in addition to all the previous nerfs due to dhuumfire) and you want to increase the CD to 15s, too.

What i think about this is, that you have never played a necro before and hate him like hell. Or you just think “what looks good on paper works in game” but right now necro only has one viable build and that is condition mancer in PvP/WvW. In PvE all builds are maximum Okey but not good.
Condi-mancer wont work, because of condi cap.
Minion-Master wont work, because minions die to fast and are stupid
Power Builds lack of damage
Vampiric builds are a joke (<100heal/s)
…

The biggest problem of the necro are the broken, underpowered or even useless traits and you only have one of them that needs a nerf? I can make you a list of ~10 that need a buff and ~10 a complete redesign. And another 10 that need to be swapped or merged to allow some build variety.

btw: what do you want to do with scepter 1? with this change, you would only stack vulnerability and 1 bleed and 1 torment. pretty bad for a condition weapon isn’kitten

And why is every CD and casttime increased? Do you want to slow the combat in GW2 down?

Swagg.9236:

I’ll open it up to anyone here:

I think that Necromancer marks fall short of something truly interesting because they are all identical. I wonder if it wouldn’t be better to make the marks into different things. We have suggestions for bringing back something like the old Mark of Pain (something that we could do with the current game mechanics) among others. I’m also working on a few chain skills for marks to provide more utility (possibly mobility) to the Necromancer while using staff.

Identical in what sense?

Visually identical? That’s def a problem.
They all operate identically (put it on the ground, someone steps on it, it explodes)? If they don’t all do the same thing, then they shouldn’t have a unified naming system. If you change this, then they’re marks which don’t function like a mark and it’s counterintuitive.

Just had a thought; Marks would be nicer if different weapons had them, like how Guardian symbols are spread across weapons. I really don’t care much for changing marks one way or another and I don’t care for changing the Staff, I don’t mind it being a Mark dispenser, but having marks be a more universal class mechanic and not exclusively tied to two traits and a stick might be nice.

Sarrs.4831:

Identical in what sense?

Functionally identical. One of the biggest detriments of Necromancer staff is that it pigeon-holes itself into Mark spamming. There’s no other weapon set that does something like this in the game, and moreover, Marks don’t even really have that much of an impact on a fight over time. Depsite the fact that some of them inflict conditions, they’re all one-shots that a player just throws across the ground and hope people step on them. At it’s core, it’s hardly a combat-shaping mechanic and more importantly it’s a very poor design from a defensive standpoint. It would make much more sense to just design individual Marks around unique, potentially combat-changing abilities just as all weapon sets strive to do.

Sarrs.4831:

Just had a thought; Marks would be nicer if different weapons had them, like how Guardian symbols are spread across weapons. I really don’t care much for changing marks one way or another and I don’t care for changing the Staff, I don’t mind it being a Mark dispenser, but having marks be a more universal class mechanic and not exclusively tied to two traits and a stick might be nice.

I’ll disagree with you there. Doing something like that would require outright deleting already existing skills and shoehorning Marks into random spots in other weapon sets that wouldn’t necessarily benefit from such a change. The whole effort would come off as haphazard. The best solution to improving Necromancer Marks is to address the already existing marks and change their underwhelming, one-shot skill design into something that has a bigger impact on how a battle would develop over time.

Swagg.9236:

Sarrs.4831:

Identical in what sense?

Functionally identical. One of the biggest detriments of Necromancer staff is that it pigeon-holes itself into Mark spamming. There’s no other weapon set that does something like this in the game, and moreover, Marks don’t even really have that much of an impact on a fight over time. Depsite the fact that some of them inflict conditions, they’re all one-shots that a player just throws across the ground and hope people step on them. At it’s core, it’s hardly a combat-shaping mechanic and more importantly it’s a very poor design from a defensive standpoint. It would make much more sense to just design individual Marks around unique, potentially combat-changing abilities just as all weapon sets strive to do.

Is the problem here the way Marks function, or the staff’s skillset? The staff is mostly doomed to spam Marks because that’s all it has to spam. If you want it to not spam Marks, change some of its abilities to not-Marks.

I know this isn’t game balance, this is more dipping into how scrubs like me interpret the game, but when I read “mark” I expect some kind of behavior consistent with other abilities which are Marks. At the moment, that behavior is “slap it on the ground and wait for some poor sod to step on it” or “put it under someone’s feet”. That behavior might need to be changed, but I expect all marks to function in, more or less, the same way.

Sarrs.4831:

I’ll disagree with you there. Doing something like that would require outright deleting already existing skills and shoehorning Marks into random spots in other weapon sets that wouldn’t necessarily benefit from such a change.

You’re already radically changing the functionality of, or outright deleting existing skills. Don’t see why this is any different.

Also precludes the possibility of them adding new weapons. Not to try to be mean or anything, but I honestly doubt that they’ll try to rework the weapons instead of doing the absolute minimum and continuing on with expanding the game.

Sarrs.4831:

Is the problem here the way Marks function, or the staff’s skillset? The staff is mostly doomed to spam Marks because that’s all it has to spam. If you want it to not spam Marks, change some of its abilities to not-Marks.

Then maybe I’ll do that. I still don’t see why that’s necessary, though, since it’s not like there are Marks elsewhere on Necromancer skill sets.

Sarrs.4831:

You’re already radically changing the functionality of, or outright deleting existing skills. Don’t see why this is any different.

Potentially compromising multiple weapon sets just because one weapon set has very poor combat flexibility is not a good decision. Loading up already functional Necromancer weapon sets with mark one-shots won’t add any new play-style dimension to the profession.

Sarrs.4831:

Also precludes the possibility of them adding new weapons.

Yes, true, but I’d rather ANet just invent new skill functionalities instead of reusing old ones. I’ve already made a new weapon set for the Engineer using new-to-players (but already implemented in the game) skill functionalities. Using entirely new skills and abilities is a better way to diversify the metagame. We don’t need old stuff with new names.

Sarrs.4831:

Not to try to be mean or anything, but I honestly doubt that they’ll try to rework the weapons instead of doing the absolute minimum and continuing on with expanding the game.

I understand, but I won’t stop until I help change this game for the better.

Couple of suggestions for you Swagg.

A few easy modifications to try and avoid the imminent fiasco of the Dhuumfire change:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Feature-Build-Balance-Preview/page/5#post3570656

Second a way to fix lifestealing and make the Blood tree more appealing:

Edited based on feedback:

Change the minor traits in Blood Magic and make them 5 = Vampiric, 15 = Bloodthirst, 25 = Life siphoning works in Death Shroud.

This ameliorates the whole “lifestealing must be balanced around bloodthirst” a bit.

Also change lifestealing so it’s flat recovery with no damage inflicted and use 60 + 0.02 for Vampiric scaling with healing power.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Couple of suggestions for you Swagg.

A few easy modifications to try and avoid the imminent fiasco of the Dhuumfire change:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Feature-Build-Balance-Preview/page/5#post3570656

Second a way to fix lifestealing and make the Blood tree more appealing:

Change the minor traits in Blood Magic and make them 5 = Vampiric, 15 = Vampriric Precision, 25 = Bloodthirst.

This fixes the inherent OPness that Bloodthirst brings in the 10 slot and actually makes the tree scale the more you invest in it.

Also change lifestealing so it’s flat recovery with no damage inflicted and use 30 + 0.01 for Vampiric and 100 + 0.05 for Vampiric Precision, both scaling with healing power.

I’ll take it all into consideration. I’ll have to read over your post again. I’m going through a myriad of replies right now.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Couple of suggestions for you Swagg.

A few easy modifications to try and avoid the imminent fiasco of the Dhuumfire change:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Feature-Build-Balance-Preview/page/5#post3570656

Second a way to fix lifestealing and make the Blood tree more appealing:

Change the minor traits in Blood Magic and make them 5 = Vampiric, 15 = Vampriric Precision, 25 = Bloodthirst.

This fixes the inherent OPness that Bloodthirst brings in the 10 slot and actually makes the tree scale the more you invest in it.

Also change lifestealing so it’s flat recovery with no damage inflicted and use 30 + 0.01 for Vampiric and 100 + 0.05 for Vampiric Precision, both scaling with healing power.

I disagree.I never understood what Vampiric Precision was doing in Blood to begin with, given it’s a critical hit based effect. Putting it in Curses allows to achieve some sustain beyond the borders of Blood Magic. If anything, Deathly Invigoration should be a minor, given it’s current values, since it’ll be useful to every Necro where Vampiric Precision is build dependent (the opposite of what a Minor should be).

Who are you people? who am I?

Why are we still talking about suggestions when we need fixes?

Balefire.7592:

I disagree.I never understood what Vampiric Precision was doing in Blood to begin with, given it’s a critical hit based effect. Putting it in Curses allows to achieve some sustain beyond the borders of Blood Magic. If anything, Deathly Invigoration should be a minor, given it’s current values, since it’ll be useful to every Necro where Vampiric Precision is build dependent (the opposite of what a Minor should be).

But you think the other changes are a good idea? Any criticism about the rest?

Kiriakulos.1690:

Change the minor traits in Blood Magic and make them 5 = Vampiric, 15 = Vampriric Precision, 25 = Bloodthirst.

Particularly with this; I don’t really like it. It somewhat forces you to push deep into the tree for the first trait to be worthwhile, and I personally don’t really like minor traits compounding on themselves because it constructs an if→then relationship. If Vampiric and Vamp Precision are bad, then Bloodthirst is bad.

Blood minors don’t really need changes, they’re more or less fine as they are. Play with Spite and Death.

Sarrs.4831:

Particularly with this; I don’t really like it. It somewhat forces you to push deep into the tree for the first trait to be worthwhile, and I personally don’t really like minor traits compounding on themselves because it constructs an if->then relationship. If Vampiric and Vamp Precision are bad, then Bloodthirst is bad.

I believe that the minors while good for general builds should compound upon each other, so I aim my suggestions that way.

Good points, so how about like this instead:

Change the minor traits in Blood Magic and make them 5 = Vampiric, 15 = Bloodthirst, 25 = Life siphoning works in Death Shroud.

This ameliorates the whole “lifestealing must be balanced around bloodthirst” a bit.

Also change lifestealing so it’s flat recovery with no damage inflicted and use 60 + 0.02 for Vampiric scaling with healing power.

Blood magic is a defensive tree focusing on Vitality and healing to keep us alive, the minors should work with any build to achieve that desired objective.
Traits should also be exponentially better, the deeper you speck into the trait line.
From these guidelines I came up with these suggestions.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Change the minor traits in Blood Magic and make them 5 = Vampiric, 15 = Bloodthirst, 25 = Life siphoning works in Death Shroud.

5→15 has the same problem. Bloodthirst will still be bad if Vampiric is bad.
25 should just be baseline. Don’t know why we should have to trait for basic functionality.

Swagg.9236:

Part 1 of a series dedicated to redesigning and fixing GW2 combat, profession by profession.

NECROMANCER: “I LACK AN IDENTITY!”
Necromancer is billed as the “attrition class” of GW2. However, it is in fact just another DPS class that typically focuses on spamming poorly-cued, low cool-down ranged skills to deal excessive DoT via conditions.

how will shifting dmg to power make necro attrition class? isnt that opposite of attrition? attrition = delayed condi damage, while surviving.

necro has top condi dmg (so strong that more talk of condi spike than attrition) and enough survival to be one of top tiers in sPVP. means = leave him alone.

gesho.9468:

Swagg.9236:

Part 1 of a series dedicated to redesigning and fixing GW2 combat, profession by profession.

NECROMANCER: “I LACK AN IDENTITY!”
Necromancer is billed as the “attrition class” of GW2. However, it is in fact just another DPS class that typically focuses on spamming poorly-cued, low cool-down ranged skills to deal excessive DoT via conditions.

how will shifting dmg to power make necro attrition class? isnt that opposite of attrition? attrition = delayed condi damage, while surviving.

necro has top condi dmg (so strong that more talk of condi spike than attrition) and enough survival to be one of top tiers in sPVP. means = leave him alone.

The effort was sort of compromised when I deleted a huge section of suggestions that aimed to give Necromancer more hard CC/supportive active abilities. I’ve been looking to fold those ideas into current Necromancer skills.

Sarrs.4831:

Kiriakulos.1690:

Change the minor traits in Blood Magic and make them 5 = Vampiric, 15 = Bloodthirst, 25 = Life siphoning works in Death Shroud.

5->15 has the same problem. Bloodthirst will still be bad if Vampiric is bad.
25 should just be baseline. Don’t know why we should have to trait for basic functionality.

Then what ratios do you think would make vampiric good? How much should bloodthirst increase then?

10% of the damage dealt or 20% and redue active healing and regeneration by 33%.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Sarrs.4831:

Kiriakulos.1690:

Change the minor traits in Blood Magic and make them 5 = Vampiric, 15 = Bloodthirst, 25 = Life siphoning works in Death Shroud.

5->15 has the same problem. Bloodthirst will still be bad if Vampiric is bad.
25 should just be baseline. Don’t know why we should have to trait for basic functionality.

Then what ratios do you think would make vampiric good? How much should bloodthirst increase then?

I never said that Vampiric is bad. I said that if Vampiric is bad, then Bloodthirst will, by extension, be bad, if it’s a minor trait.

Just don’t change the Blood minors at all. They’re fine. All Vampiric needs is a small scaling value with Healing Power, like every other lifedrain effect needs; it otherwise functions well as a long-term EHP increasing effect. The other two traits are more or less in line with what you’d expect from a minor trait.

If I were to give Bloodthirst a number increase, I might push it up to 25%. I don’t think it needs one though; a simple numbers push upwards will make it too good at what it does. Combine it with another, less desirable trait, like Dagger Mastery.

Here’s a suggestion to make Reanimator useful:

Any time that Reanimator would normally create a minion, it gives you a 1 stack of reserve minions instead. These build up slowly, to a set maximum, and then the necromancer can summon them all at once at the press of a button… or he can choose not to summon them. Either way, the minions are more useful, and the trait retains it’s basic original functionality.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Here’s a suggestion to make Reanimator useful:

Any time that Reanimator would normally create a minion, it gives you a 1 stack of reserve minions instead. These build up slowly, to a set maximum, and then the necromancer can summon them all at once at the press of a button… or he can choose not to summon them. Either way, the minions are more useful, and the trait retains it’s basic original functionality.

Anything that has to with minions in the minor traits I would like too eliminated and removed altogether. Minions do not survive even a split part of second due to AOE during PvE boss fights and especially in group encounters in WvW.

Yet I am forced to have these utterly useless minor traits in order to have a workable staff / well build. Why ? Remove them or give me a choice to change them to anything that is even remotely useful.

I see only 2 uses for minions, leveling or some misc random running around in outdoors small scale PvE, and SPVP neither one of which I do/use on my necro. And even then there are better choices available.

Well… You wrote a lot of things… Let’s point an overpowered things :

_[Ghastly Claws] (2)

FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
Cast-time: 3¼ seconds
Recharge: 15 seconds
Channel a cone of biting energy that slashes foes in a quick flurry of strikes. You gain life force with each strike. The final pulse removes up to 1 boon from foes that it strikes.
Damage (9x): 918 (2.8)
Duration: 3 seconds
Strikes per second: 3
Life Force per strike: 2%
Range: 600
Strikes up to 5 foes._

Traited this thing could totally filled your LF pool every 12s and give you almost 3k hp. This almost make me laugh. Totally off balance.

Axe (1) and scepter (1) change are huge nerf against all type of reflect skill that will leave us with just Dagger to damage some classes or even some boss.

_Deathshroud skills
[Dark Path]

FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
Cast-time: ¼ second
Recharge: 20 seconds
Whirl in target direction, chilling and bleeding foes that you strike along the way.
Damage: 61 (0.25)
Chill: 2 seconds
Bleeding (1): 6 seconds
Combo Finisher: Whirl
Range: 900_

Absolutely ridiculous, this would give us even less mobility…

Your changes on [Well of Blood are really off. Changing this field in water field is something really interesting but that can’t fit Necromancer. Because Necromancers are tied to life and death matter (Light and dark). Healing combo vs condition cleanse combo which one fit Necromancer better? You are just trying to make a new signet of vampirism.

[Spectral walk]… I mean are you serious here? Super Jump? PvE gamebreaking by opening door to exploit bug. Gamebreaking for WvW to by jumping over the walls… While I feel it boring when I’m perma lock/cripple/chilled, I don’t think we lack condition cleanses to get rid of them to the point that we need to add this things to a skill that is already really good.

And lastly [Dhuumfire], best way to fix this one would be to replace it with something that actually help our soft cc. Something like : enhance by 1 seconde every chill/cripple that you inflict.

I won’t argue more but overall there isn’t anything I really agree or like in your suggestion. Because none of them address the real issue of necromancers.

Super jump should not be implemented. Spectral walk can already survive all fall damage as it is, no need for it to be used for stuff like void jumping and general jump puzzle cheating.

I say necros should either get methods to prevent mobile professions (such as the warrior and thief) from escaping OR give necros mobility skills. Also, necros should get at least a 40 second recharge stun breaker that doesn’t ground target. Just these buffs will do enough to put necros in the wvw roaming and structured pvp playing field.

Tongku.5326:

Anything that has to with minions in the minor traits I would like too eliminated and removed altogether. Minions do not survive even a split part of second due to AOE during PvE boss fights and especially in group encounters in WvW.

They do if you have a swarm of them. Which is why I suggested this change. It would:

• Allow you to summon a large group of tiny minions, instead of a useless single minion.
• Allow you to control when and IF they spawn at all.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Tongku.5326:

Anything that has to with minions in the minor traits I would like too eliminated and removed altogether. Minions do not survive even a split part of second due to AOE during PvE boss fights and especially in group encounters in WvW.

They do if you have a swarm of them. Which is why I suggested this change. It would:

• Allow you to summon a large group of tiny minions, instead of a useless single minion.
• Allow you to control when and IF they spawn at all.

No, they dont. In fact I recently went minion just to test this after which I quickly switched back as fast as I could type and click. Summoned all my pets etc. they all insta die in like 0.1 secs on the 1st push, which prevents any of the effects thats supposed to give from triggering even for 1 sec. It is rediculous. Their toughness or hitpoints would need to be increased about 20-30 times what they are now to be useful under current game mechanics to live through the AOE spam which obviously will not happen.

Best thing for me is to just let me keep my staff / well traits completely seperate from minions and anything related to minions in any way shape or form directly or indirectly.

Dadnir.5038:

Well… You wrote a lot of things… Let’s point an overpowered things :

_[Ghastly Claws] (2)

Fair enough. I was actually going to rework this anyway. I’m surprised that nobody called me out on that sooner.

Dadnir.5038:

_Deathshroud skills
[Dark Path]

Absolutely ridiculous, this would give us even less mobility…

Being able to move 900 range in a direction every 20 seconds could be more useful than requiring a target for a projectile-bound teleport every 15 seconds. Target-free mobility is a very powerful thing.

Dadnir.5038:

Your changes on [Well of Blood are really off.

The water field would provide more party support.

Dadnir.5038:

You are just trying to make a new signet of vampirism.

New [Well of Blood] is a party-wide lightly spread counter-pressure buff (so long as players remain in the well, which may or may not be a wise move depending on how a given battle is going). [Signet of Vampirism] is a focused counter-pressure DPS buff for the party that moves with the target.

Dadnir.5038:

[Spectral walk]… I mean are you serious here? Super Jump? PvE gamebreaking by opening door to exploit bug. Gamebreaking for WvW to by jumping over the walls…

This game deserves more well-telegraphed vertical movement. Teleports are nonsense because they don’t provide any counterplay. A super jump is the perfect solution.

As for breaking the game, there are a lot of things that ANet can do with their in-house terrain modifier to very quickly adjust weak points in WvW and PvE. These sorts of things can be fleshed out in the beta test client.

Dadnir.5038:

While I feel it boring when I’m perma lock/cripple/chilled, I don’t think we lack condition cleanses to get rid of them to the point that we need to add this things to a skill that is already really good.

Having a get-out-of-soft-CC-free card is a very valuable skill that I think the Necromancer deserves. Moreover, it’s on a 60-second cool-down. This might promote even more active use of [Spectral Walk] outside of a stun-breaker.

Dadnir.5038:

And lastly [Dhuumfire], best way to fix this one would be to replace it with something that actually help our soft cc. Something like : enhance by 1 seconde every chill/cripple that you inflict.

I’ve had discussions about Dhuumfire and how it’s hated by a large number of the informed Necromancer community. I’ll look into something about soft-CC. It seems like a good idea for something like a GM trait (a build-defining trait).

Actually, about Ghastly Claws, it isn’t necessarily broken from a LF-gain stand-point since it was described that—ah, nevermind, I’m just remaking it anyway.

Also, UPDATES TO TRAITS. I had an interesting discussion with Kiriakulos.1690 earlier today and I’ve put the results of our talk in its own “traits” post at the beginning of this thread. I’m also looking at reworking the Death Magic 15 minor trait. Any ideas for that? Limiting it to just minions really pigeon-holes it and we should look at expanding its functionality with a full change.

Swagg.9236:

Reanimator (Death Magic – 5; minor)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Gain 5 seconds of Vigor upon leaving Death Shroud.
  • Cool-down: 15 seconds

Necromancers are not meant to have vigor by design.

NEW TRAIT – Dead Skin (Death Magic – XI)

• Gain 1 stack of Dead Skin every 5 seconds that you don’t take damage (up to 5 stacks total). Lose 1 stack of Dead Skin every time that you take damage. You cannot lose more than 1 stack of Dead Skin each second. When you lose a stack of Dead Skin, you gain 2% Life Force.
  • Dead Skin (1): Gain 300 toughness.

I think this is somewhat unintuitive, but in terms of what it accomplishes, I guess it’s fine.

Near to Death (Soul Reaping – VIII)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Death Shroud begins recharging right as you enter into it.

I always see people asking for this, and I think it’s a terrible idea. Not only is it terribly unintuitive, it allows you re-enter deathshroud as soon as you exit provided you outlast the cooldown, which therefore offers no punishment for exiting DS at the wrong time.

Death Nova – MOVED TO – (Soul Reaping – VII)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• When you enter Death Shroud, you create a bubble of toxic energy at your location. After 2 seconds, this bubble bursts, poisoning and knocking back foes.
  • Delay: 2 seconds
  • Damage: 314 (1.0)
  • Poison: 3 seconds
  • Knock-back: 180
  • Combo Finisher: Blast
  • Radius: 180

This is the flag ship minion master trait, and it’s perfectly fine as is, since people complain about the zoo aspect, not Death Nova. It baffles me that you would remove this from minion builds while leaving Necromantic Corruption or Fetid Consumption, both of which are never used.

Reapers Mark (Soul Reaping – VII)

• REMOVED FROM THE GAME

And replaced with?

There are plenty of threads in the Necromancer forum discussing bad traits, so I would take a cue from those. Also, the Necromancer trait workshop thread, which I run, might be of use of to you.

Balefire.7592:

Swagg.9236:

Reanimator (Death Magic – 5; minor)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Gain 5 seconds of Vigor upon leaving Death Shroud.
  • Cool-down: 15 seconds

Necromancers are not meant to have vigor by design.

I will make the argument that the design wasn’t incredibly sound to begin with. ANet wants to make an “attrition” class. They then give the “attrition” class a load of hp, little CC, poor self-defensive measures and effectively no stability. They tell it “Good luck.”

The Necromancer is no more the attrition class than is an old hp sponge boss in overworld PvE/dungeon. People just do a maypole dance around it while the boss whittles away with little else to do. It makes for a very one-dimensional encounter both from the standpoint of the Necromancer and the opponent which typically boils down to “CC the necromancer into the dirt before he fears you forever and/or DPS’es you to death with conditions.”

An extra dodge once every 15 seconds is not game-breaking, and it will allow the Necromancer to eek out a little more survivability. Moreover, it’s bound to exiting Death Shroud which not only gives the Necromancer some staying power in a weapon set of his/her choice, but the proc is then also tied to a charge-up mechanic. The Necromancer can’t go gaining an extra dodge once every 15 seconds if he/she exhausts DS and then can’t replenish Life Force effectively.

Balefire.7592:

Swagg.9236:

NEW TRAIT – Dead Skin (Death Magic – XI)

• Gain 1 stack of Dead Skin every 5 seconds that you don’t take damage (up to 5 stacks total). Lose 1 stack of Dead Skin every time that you take damage. You cannot lose more than 1 stack of Dead Skin each second. When you lose a stack of Dead Skin, you gain 2% Life Force.
  • Dead Skin (1): Gain 300 toughness.

I think this is somewhat unintuitive, but in terms of what it accomplishes, I guess it’s fine.

Why is it unintuitive? Do you know specifically what this trait is attempting to accomplish?

Swagg.9236:

Near to Death (Soul Reaping – VIII)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• Death Shroud begins recharging right as you enter into it.

I always see people asking for this, and I think it’s a terrible idea. Not only is it terribly unintuitive, it allows you re-enter deathshroud as soon as you exit provided you outlast the cooldown, which therefore offers no punishment for exiting DS at the wrong time. [/quote]
There’s that unintuitive word again. What do you mean by that? That’s a very subjective word.

Also, what do you mean by exiting DS at the wrong time? I just don’t see that as an argument. Give me an example of exiting DS at the wrong time. Do you mean something like exiting DS when you suddenly see another enemy coming up on the horizon?

As an answer to that: the point of a trait in GW2 is to change the way that a build plays. This version of Near to Death would drastically change the playstyle of the Necromancer by giving him/her more flexibility in DS usage. It doesn’t affect the cool-down at all, it simply gives the Necromancer more flexbility in DS usage; this could translate to increased survival if played right.

Balefire.7592:

Swagg.9236:

Death Nova – MOVED TO – (Soul Reaping – VII)

• FUNCTIONALITY CHANGED
• When you enter Death Shroud, you create a bubble of toxic energy at your location. After 2 seconds, this bubble bursts, poisoning and knocking back foes.
  • Delay: 2 seconds
  • Damage: 314 (1.0)
  • Poison: 3 seconds
  • Knock-back: 180
  • Combo Finisher: Blast
  • Radius: 180

This is the flag ship minion master trait, and it’s perfectly fine as is, since people complain about the zoo aspect, not Death Nova. It baffles me that you would remove this from minion builds while leaving Necromantic Corruption or Fetid Consumption, both of which are never used.

Reapers Mark (Soul Reaping – VII)

It wasn’t a matter of attempting to purposely cripple MM builds, it was a matter of introducing more well-cued, active, hard CC into the Necromancer’s repertoire.

• REMOVED FROM THE GAME

And replaced with? [/quote]
Death Nova was the original plan. That said, I guess I could just rework things based on what you’ve said regarding MM.

I will take a look at your thread, though, Balefire. It’s the least I can do.

I had a really thorough response typed out, but the forum ate it, so I’m going to be a little more brief. EDIT: Maybe not so brief.

Necromancers don’t have vigor because we have that health sponge. I agree that it’s one dimensional, but adding vigor on top of death shroud, especially at such an accessible slot, might push it over the top. Also, Necromancers are meant by design to be the “face tank” profession. It’s part of their identity, and if you remove that, you begin to homogenize professions. There are also plenty of ways to add sustain without vigor. For one, better access to protection. Moreover, things like retaliation, confusion, and torment are useful because as you take hits/move around, your opponents suffer for it.

Regarding Dead Skin, I think unintuitive was perhaps not the right word.
I think the issue here is in the execution of the trait, not in its idea (which, as I understand, is to improve our hardiness). I thought you intended on promoting active benefits, which this is not (for the most part). Moreover, a long history of playing MtG (which has a surprising number of parallels) has taught me that effects that rely too much on your opponent’s actions tend to unsavory gameplay. This trait looks like it’ll reduce a lot of damage, but a good opponent will make sure it triggers as little as possible. On the other hand, a bad opponent will have a difficult time dealing with it, giving us a binary trait problem. I think it would be better implement as an “Elemental Attunement”-like buff on exiting DS that increased your toughness/life force/healing/whatever, since that promotes smart play (do I eat a reduced 100Blades and max my LF, or buffer it in DS?).

With Near to Death, I do believe it is unintuitive. It creates complexity where none is needed since “optimum play” would require you to keep track of your DS cooldown while in DS. Moreover, it just seems odd for a transformation to trigger its cooldown on activation.
I think the main issue is that yes, it promotes bad usage. With this change, if you outlast the DS cooldown, you can pop out, use whatever skills you need, then pop back in. Also, a similar situation arises when you’re focibly removed from DS, since you just need to get to 10% again to re-enter. It nullifies the opportunity cost of Deathshroud which is one of the few interesting strategic decisions associated with it.
Lastly, this change would kill DS flashing as a build. It’s not currently viable, and Near to Death does mess up other things, but I believe that some fine tuning, both of these issues could be resolved, creating another possible play style.

Regarding Death Nova, you might be better off asking Bhawb, but simply put: it’s damage insurance. Minions are meant to achieve sustained DPS in comparison to the burst of Wells or the Sustain of Spectrals. However, due to AI reliability, or lack thereof, this isn’t always achieved, as your minion might be killed before accomplishing anything significant. Death Nova insures that they at least do something. It also allows for two different minion master variants to exist: one which wants to keep its minions alive for sustained DPS, and one with functions like a Necro equivalent of a Shatter build.

The effect on your suggested Death Nova, is good, but I just don’t think it needs to replace the original. Besides, if anything, Necromantic Corruption is just as good a name for it.

@Balefire

The proposed change to NtD will be a nerf to DS flash builds, yes, but currently almost all the entering DS traits are actually underbalanced because of NtD.
Removing NtD’s ability to actually decrease DS cooldown removes that worry from the balance team and might allow them to revisit all the flash traits, many of which were designed with NtD reducing cooldown to 5 seconds instead of 7.
This version of NtD would be much more beneficial to builds which use DS in a more active manner compared to flash builds as well, since it allows people who spend time in DS to return to it quicker, but never more than once every 10 seconds.

As for Dead Skin, I’m not sure if the current text clarifies the skill as well as I wished.
It’s inspired on Dota 2’s Visage’s “Gravekeeper’s Cloak” ability. Each stack makes you much more tanky and attacking you is the only way to remove this tankiness.
The description is also a bit unclear about how you recover the charges, you recover them for each 5 seconds without HP loss, so 5 seconds in DS would also recharge 1 stack. Of course, Dead Skin would be inert WHILE you’re in DS since not losing stacks would make this ability crazy OP.

PS – I really encourage people making trait/skill/whatever suggestions to look into LoL/Dota/Hon games for some inspiration. GW2 was marketed as having MOBA-like combat and those games have had years to try out stuff and have some very well polished abilities that would make GW2 much more interesting if they were ported in.

Kiriakulos.1690:

This version of NtD would be much more beneficial to builds which use DS in a more active manner compared to flash builds as well, since it allows people who spend time in DS to return to it quicker, but never more than once every 10 seconds.

This version would be better only for power(life blast)builds with good LF regeneration (main hand dagger).

pierwola.9602:

Kiriakulos.1690:

This version of NtD would be much more beneficial to builds which use DS in a more active manner compared to flash builds as well, since it allows people who spend time in DS to return to it quicker, but never more than once every 10 seconds.

This version would be better only for power(life blast)builds with good LF regeneration (main hand dagger).

There are other builds with good LF generation besides MH dagger and although this build is obviously better for life blasts it also allows a user to get out of DS and back in in shorter intervals AFTER they’ve used it to mitigate damage. If you spend at least 3 seconds in DS to avoid some attack, it’s equivalent to current NtD in usefulness. If you spend any time MORE than 3 seconds, next DS is on a shorter cooldown. So if you use DS defensively, you’d only benefit more from the current NtD if the damage absorption happened within 3 seconds.

As I said, the only builds nerfed would be flash builds and I do believe that flash traits are currently under-balanced because of NtD possibly granting a shorter activation time to them.

Kiriakulos.1690:

If you spend at least 3 seconds in DS to avoid some attack, it’s equivalent to current NtD in usefulness. If you spend any time MORE than 3 seconds, next DS is on a shorter cooldown. So if you use DS defensively, you’d only benefit more from the current NtD if the damage absorption happened within 3 seconds.

Currently im playing condi (healing,spectral,DS trait) build and i can tell you that staying in DS and face tanking lot of dmg at once is the worst thing that i (you) can do.

pierwola.9602:

Kiriakulos.1690:

If you spend at least 3 seconds in DS to avoid some attack, it’s equivalent to current NtD in usefulness. If you spend any time MORE than 3 seconds, next DS is on a shorter cooldown. So if you use DS defensively, you’d only benefit more from the current NtD if the damage absorption happened within 3 seconds.

Currently im playing condi (healing,spectral,DS trait) build and i can tell you that staying in DS and face tanking lot of dmg at once is the worst thing that i (you) can do.

Worse than having no other choice but to take it in your actual health?
Besides, you don’t even take NtD in a condition build, what is your point?

A few tweaks to axe main-hand, scepter and [Spectral Walk].

Update to staff skills. One of the biggest issues with Necromancer staff is that it pigeon-holes itself into a single function for 4 of its 5 skills. Not only is the play-style poorly cued but it is also one-dimensional thus being an less than engaging, spam-oriented experience for both the player and any opponent.

The new changes promote a more attrition-based play-style with the pulsing functionality of [Mark of Blood] while also providing the Necromancer with more movement control and repositioning ability via [Chilblains] and [Weaken Knees]. [Mark of Pain] is a support AoE skill that chains into a more active version of [Putrid Blast] that can be targeted and guaranteed to explode without the use of an enemy’s foot. The new [Reaper’s Mark] is a more active, better-cued version of its current form that can also contribute to spike damage if channeled to its final channel tier.

Well done! Swagg,

The first class i switch after witnessing the truth of the ranger future, is necromancer. Sincerely, i have no regrets whatsoever. In fact, i regretted ever choosing the ranger class and devoting my time, energy with the ranger class.. to begin with.

I adore this class in many ways. At most; this is what the Ranger class could have been.

Anything to help improve the necromancer class; i’m totally all for it.

Incoming Injustice

What is saddening, whenever an innocent capable class does their best, whenever an innocent capable class seek the path of humility; they are instantly targeted for Punishment/Unjust Nerfs.

Is it a crime to be humble?
Is it a crime to be simple?
Is it a crime to be lowly?
Is it a crime to be docile?
Is it a crime to be yourself?

For once; let Necromancer class be, leave them alone.

Identity

Help them find their Identity.

As the saying goes,

" What we know matters but who we are matters more ”

UPDATES

• Dagger main-hand [Life Siphon].
• Dagger off-hand [Deathly Swarm].
• Axe main-hand [Ghastly Claws] and [Rending Claws].
• Scepter (most of it)
• Staff (most of it)
• [Spectral Grasp]
• [Spectral Walk]

I’m going to be working on traits next to first come into line with the suggestions and then on those that are underpowered.

Updates to Death Shroud skills, healing skills, scepter and staff skills.

I wasn’t able to read it all, i read all until the staff.
Such perfect changes that creates more skillful gameplay and saves us from the spamming of bleedings. Thank you for these Swagg.
Though i think it would be impossible to have so big changes.
Btw “I lack Identity” is so much true, same feeling i have whenever i login to my necro.

I do wish Anet would have another look at this class and tried to look for changes that reward the skillful use of your skills.

You know that his changes to scepter will make necros coni builds nonviable?

Or do you think someone would like to play a condi build that is capable to stack max. 1 bleed, max. 1 torment and tons vulnerability (which is useless for condition builds). Okey the chain will get an increased direct damage part, but it is a condi weapon, so who needs that damage?

And in the end the condition necro will be able to stack something like:
1 bleed
3 torment
5 vulnerability
And if there is an other player hitting your foe, you probably can also reduce the bleed and torment by 1 and add more vulnerability. Sounds scary for a condi build, doesn’kitten Would someone even use a cleanse for those few conditions?

unleashed.8679:

You know that his changes to scepter will make necros coni builds nonviable?

Or do you think someone would like to play a condi build that is capable to stack max. 1 bleed, max. 1 torment and tons vulnerability (which is useless for condition builds). Okey the chain will get an increased direct damage part, but it is a condi weapon, so who needs that damage?

And in the end the condition necro will be able to stack something like:
1 bleed
3 torment
5 vulnerability
And if there is an other player hitting your foe, you probably can also reduce the bleed and torment by 1 and add more vulnerability. Sounds scary for a condi build, doesn’kitten Would someone even use a cleanse for those few conditions?

Current Scepter

• Expend all cool-downs.
• Give no cares about anything.
• Press 1 to win when out of other buttons to press.

Re-designed Scepter

• Stack vulnerability to boost team damage on a selected target.
• Deny area/bait dodges with AoE attacks.
• Aim your attacks/track your target instead of relying on 0 post-cast delay crutch.
• Use 3 to support allies and yourself (extend the fight) with healing/deny enemy healing with poison.
• Generate Life Force with auto-attack and 3-2 (extend the fight further).

So you want the scepter to spam vulnerability to increase his direct damage? Because your suggestion is no condition weapon any more and no power weapon either.

In the end, with all your changes, the necromance (the master of conditions) will only be able to spam vulnerability and poison. In the end you will be able to deal probably 500DPS with a condition build. And most of this will be direct damage

Balefire.7592:

Some of them may improve Necromancer attrition, but most involve such radical changes that they will probably never see the light of day. Feel free to post this in the Necro subforum – you’ll probably get a pretty good critique on most things from Bhawb and couple others.

That’s the problem with all of Swagg’s Wanna Be Dev Balancer threads.

Not sure why he isn’t programming his own game.

unleashed.8679:

So you want the scepter to spam vulnerability to increase his direct damage? Because your suggestion is no condition weapon any more and no power weapon either.

It’s a weapon that deals damage while extending the encounter through CC, healing, area denial and Life Force generation: it’s an attrition weapon.

unleashed.8679:

In the end, with all your changes, the necromance (the master of conditions)

The Necromancer was never billed as the master of anything but attrition. Unfortunately, it was never designed well enough to truly fulfill that role in any real capacity. Then the Dhuumfire patch rolled along and wrecked any chance of the Necromancer ever getting a proper identity outside of “PRESS BUTTONS AND KILL PEOPLE WITH 0-CUE CONDITION SPAM!!”

Conditions are inherently overpowered in this game due to the fact that they require so little stat investment in order to be effective compared to direct damage and often come in streams of unavoidable attacks instead of well-cued, single abilities. I actually added some more bleeding to [Foul Feast] so now even the Necromancer can stack vulnerability, some torment, poison and a healthy amount of bleeds. The only catch is now the Necromancer actually has to invest time and aim into landing these attacks instead of just pressing 2 then 1 repeatedly.

This isn’t about “B-but, Necromancer is supposed to do this, guys!” it’s about introducing more skill into GW2 by better defining individual attacks and how players can contribute to a fight.