Guild Wars 2

Before you laugh, think about it first.

What is the bottom line with all of the necromancer complaints?:
That necromancers get focused and can’t do anything about it, they can’t escape fights and are weak against CC.

No one is complaining about their boon removal, their high access to weakness or their high access to poison. No one complains about Lich Form which is the most powerful offensive skill in the game. No one complains about their unblockable skills. There are barely even any complaints about Terror anymore.

Why are there so few complaints about necromancers being too strong as opposed to them being too weak?

Because the other classes are too strong. Necromancers are in the “balanced” state that warriors were a long time ago before hambow, cleansing ire, stances and all of the other power creep. The only complaints that there is are about AOE spam, conditions and condition removal. But that is a game wide phenomenon that does not just refer to necromancers.

Who else are you going to focus other than a necromancer? A thief? I don’t even need to explain that one. A warrior, with all of their invulnerability and over 2000 range of runaway skills? Are you going to focus an elementalist? They will surely just run away and heal. Even if you do get them down, they have mist form. You could try focusing a ranger, but if it’s a ranger built to survive, then he will just spam all of the evades that he has to survive, which is a lot.

The list goes on…

In theory, necromancers should actually be nerfed because of their access to poison, weakness and other condition spam. But as the game has went on, conditions have increased and condition removal has increased along with it. Just as that increased over time, so have the damage and defensive abilities for every class.

What do people complain about from other classes?:
Their mobility, immunity and survivability.

Think you’re going to poison that warrior to counter his healing signet? Good luck with that. Oh, you just applied weakness to that hammer warrior to stop him from destroying you? Sorry! He has immunity to conditions! Feared that elementalist so that you can go on the offensive? Diamond Skin! Knocked that thief out of his Shadow Refuge? He just teleported away so it doesn’t matter.

Think you’re going to make a support necromancer to help allies? Why? You’re going to be the one who’s focused, not them.

What I’m trying to get at is that the necromancer doesn’t need buffs.
Other than making useless traits useful and increasing build diversity, every class needs nerfs.

Disagree people complain about mobility because they think they should have the opportunity to kill everything they see, people complain about immunity because well it’s immunity, and survivability is apart of immunity and mobility.

Your suggesting that other classes need nerfs instead of looking at specific builds(not saying I agree anything needs nerfed based on your assumption.) You mention diamond skin elementalist as a reason elementalist needs nerf who even runs that outside of some niche roaming builds?

The bases for your claim that every other class needs nerfs is kind of weak tbh. Just because people complain or not doesn’t really mean there is a problem in the first place.

I would say that Necromancer is the easiest profession to bring to balanced. With the addition of 1-2 2h weapons, some QoL changes (like making Locust Swarm not hit the boxes on Khylo putting you in combat), and some better access to stability/non-damaging conditions through traits, you’d see a TON of viable Necromancer builds.

As it is right now, there are literally tons of builds that are just short of being viable, but are held back by just a change or two. (All the below are considering high tier play, anything is viable in low-mid tier games).
MM would be viable if Flesh Wurm was 1500-2000 range (far enough that you could go from mid to home before a decap occurs).
Zerker power would be viable if they gave us a ranged power weapon
Condi would be viable if they reverted some of the Dhuumfire nerfs, and gave reasonable (not 6 trait points) access to attrition mechanics
Any bunker build would be viable with the addition of a relevant bunker/support weapon (one for power one for condi)

That wouldn’t necessarily fix all the issues, but with fairly easy changes you’d have a ton of builds. So in a way, Necromancers have the ability to be very balanced very quickly. Its unlikely to happen soon though, since to fully fix a lot of issues requires ANet to actually understand the profession (they’ve shown they don’t, and don’t listen to people who do), and to make changes to make the class have actual synergy.

Bhawb.7408:

I would say that Necromancer is the easiest profession to bring to balanced. With the addition of 1-2 2h weapons, some QoL changes (like making Locust Swarm not hit the boxes on Khylo putting you in combat), and some better access to stability/non-damaging conditions through traits, you’d see a TON of viable Necromancer builds.

As it is right now, there are literally tons of builds that are just short of being viable, but are held back by just a change or two. (All the below are considering high tier play, anything is viable in low-mid tier games).
MM would be viable if Flesh Wurm was 1500-2000 range (far enough that you could go from mid to home before a decap occurs).
Zerker power would be viable if they gave us a ranged power weapon
Condi would be viable if they reverted some of the Dhuumfire nerfs, and gave reasonable (not 6 trait points) access to attrition mechanics
Any bunker build would be viable with the addition of a relevant bunker/support weapon (one for power one for condi)

That wouldn’t necessarily fix all the issues, but with fairly easy changes you’d have a ton of builds. So in a way, Necromancers have the ability to be very balanced very quickly. Its unlikely to happen soon though, since to fully fix a lot of issues requires ANet to actually understand the profession (they’ve shown they don’t, and don’t listen to people who do), and to make changes to make the class have actual synergy.

i’m going to agree with all of this. what i think necro needs the most is a melee weapon with a gap closer, and an actual ranged power weapon(DS is best at sub-600 so it doesn’t count) unfortunately, i don’t think any of the current ranged weapons in the game that necro doesn’t have should be in the necromancer’s inventory. what could be in place already, and it’s a very strange thought as to why it isn’t, is the spear on land. It is our best option in melee, offering 2 pulls, an outstanding melee whirl, and cleave LF gain. changing spear#3 to a leap would fix a lot of our mobility problems.

oZii.2864:

Disagree people complain about mobility because they think they should have the opportunity to kill everything they see, people complain about immunity because well it’s immunity, and survivability is apart of immunity and mobility.

There is a spectrum between kill everything and being unable to be killed.

My Nike Warrior is utterly unkillable by anything less than 5+ enemy players with stuns and immobilise and even then I escape 75% the time. That’s not balance.

Notice how a Guardian has invulnerability but no one complains about that.

Some mobility, especially when combined with other skills (invis, condi immunity etc) because functional invulnerability at all times. That isn’t good game design.

Mian.1945:

oZii.2864:

Disagree people complain about mobility because they think they should have the opportunity to kill everything they see, people complain about immunity because well it’s immunity, and survivability is apart of immunity and mobility.

There is a spectrum between kill everything and being unable to be killed.

My Nike Warrior is utterly unkillable by anything less than 5+ enemy players with stuns and immobilise and even then I escape 75% the time. That’s not balance.

Notice how a Guardian has invulnerability but no one complains about that.

Some mobility, especially when combined with other skills (invis, condi immunity etc) because functional invulnerability at all times. That isn’t good game design.

I think it depends on the person. If you build a Nike Warrior you are doing it to get away so to you that is a victory. The other person may think it is a victory that you ran.

I don’t get annoyed if a nike warrior runs away because I know he does no damage because lolz @ sword/board power build. Saw a Warrior tonight with S/S and GS running a condi build I already know what he built for so it doesn’t bother me because lolz @ GS in a condi build.

“..But as the game has went on, conditions have increased and condition removal has increased along with it. Just as that increased over time, so have the damage and defensive abilities for every class.”

Every condition has had its stacks lessened, not increased. Poison duration has been reduced on all professions.
With changes to axe, longbow, hammer, greatsword, dagger, phantasms, nades, quickness nerf, damage coefficients being lessened, all professions power damage has been reduced.

This has all been documented in each of the update descriptions. No weapon has had more condition stacks increased or more power added.

Just say’n. You’ve made a statement that best fits your believe’s, but the facts of that statement are incorrect.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

“..But as the game has went on, conditions have increased and condition removal has increased along with it. Just as that increased over time, so have the damage and defensive abilities for every class.”

Every condition has had its stacks lessened, not increased. Poison duration has been reduced on all professions.
With changes to axe, longbow, hammer, greatsword, dagger, phantasms, nades, quickness nerf, damage coefficients being lessened, all professions power damage has been reduced.

This has all been documented in each of the update descriptions. No weapon has had more condition stacks increased or more power added.

Just say’n. You’ve made a statement that best fits your believe’s, but the facts of that statement are incorrect.

Immobilize stacking was added, torment was added, conditions were added to skills that previously didn’t have any and cooldowns have been lowered on many skills.

For condition removal, the biggest game breakers that come to mind are berserker’s stance and cleansing ire. Then there’s sigil of generosity which is a passive transfer with no counterplay, there’s diamond skin and condition immunity which is a WvW thing.

As for power builds, we have double sigils now, some sigils were buffed a lot, might stacking, passive bonuses have been raised across the board (sigils, traits, etc.), every rune in the game has been buffed and we have new traits. Some new traits aren’t great, but some are and they are condition and power based.

The ferocity change didn’t really do a thing with all of the other buffs that have happened. Healing abilities have also been buffed with these changes but there is too much lack of counterplay to survive focus fire as a necromancer.

I agree the ferocity change didn’t do alot I think people are now seeing the value in just raw power over critical damage which was always the case, except now power is a little bit more important.

Supposedly it’s guardian, hence the reason no buffs are ever given to them q_q

oZii.2864:

I agree the ferocity change didn’t do alot I think people are now seeing the value in just raw power over critical damage which was always the case, except now power is a little bit more important.

It affected the way I play a lot :-(

I was actually thinking about this the other day. And i somewhat agree. Every skill and trait that has a use on the necro is neither underpowered or overpowered. They are all well balanced. The class itself with its current kitten nal is also quite well balanced.

The problem surfaces when you compare to the other classes. They all have traits, skills and weapons which are so good that it makes no sense to take a necro instead. This often comes in the form of utility. They all have a wide range of options and have a way to do almost everything. Necro doesnt. Necro falls short in a lot of areas where it shouldnt and if these areas were improved on then necro could easily become as stable and well balanced as the guardian.

The problem is these things cant be fixed until new utilities and weapons come along. This is because adding cleave, utility etc to existing weapons and skills would imbalance them. And as ive already mentioned. Most weapons and skills on the necro are very well balanced individually.

mrauls.6519:

Supposedly it’s guardian, hence the reason no buffs are ever given to them q_q

You kidding? Burn dealing 50% more damage, and retaliation scaling off condition damage?! BORKEN!

Jokes aside I think the dev’s have ignored guardian for a long time now and when they say they feel guardian is fairly balanced it really means “We have no idea what to give them”. If only they could discover why burn alone is not a sufficient condition build…

The problem with Guardians has always been that bunker/support guardian has been top tier in every game mode every single patch literally since launch. So while every single other Guardian build has had issues (although now DPS is seeing a rise), ANet has basically ony given them cursory balance patches in a feeble attempt to do something about it.

Its a good and bad thing. On one hand you can pick up guardian and be guaranteed to be useful basically forever, but on the other hand, you better like support.

I was very disappointed when the recent balance changes didn’t make condition guardians good. I had recently finished making one to 80 because I had plans to make it condition based since I had no condition based class yet and wanted something different than necromancer. Now it just sits ungeared and unused since I had tomed it to 80.

oZii.2864:

Disagree people complain about mobility because they think they should have the opportunity to kill everything they see, people complain about immunity because well it’s immunity, and survivability is apart of immunity and mobility.

Your suggesting that other classes need nerfs instead of looking at specific builds(not saying I agree anything needs nerfed based on your assumption.) You mention diamond skin elementalist as a reason elementalist needs nerf who even runs that outside of some niche roaming builds?

The bases for your claim that every other class needs nerfs is kind of weak tbh. Just because people complain or not doesn’t really mean there is a problem in the first place.

Covered it pretty good here. Everyone seems to love making threads demanding that their chosen main profession needs a buff or that all of the other professions need a nerf.

Its not only the lack of the movement or damage migation, or not even the lack of stability why the necromancers seems so useless in most specs. I think the problem is mostly within the other classes.

Every profession should have some distinct natural benefit and weakness. This cycle creates build diversity, if a class has more things to cover then just damage, or condition damage, or sustain, the player has to make choices. Has to adapt to the situation. Creating plays, tactics, and shifting the great meta in progress.

The weakness of the necromancer is pretty clear in this meta, a lack of a lot of things other classes get for free. Take a look:

Warriors: Huge natural HP and armor values. Huge base damage. CC skills that hit harder then burst skills of other classes. On demand immunities for every situation. Absurd high mobility on weapons that are supposed to burst and deal damage. Single weapons, that can provide the same damage and pressure then entiry builds of other classes. These class has no weakness, it has nothing to adapt a build around, it has absolutly no play, and no skill, has no single reason to adapt to any meta or situation due to powercreep and basicly getting everything valuable free.

Engineers: insane amount of cc, insane ammount of effects and utility, insane spaming of skills due to many kits, so many mechanics and functions packed onto the skills. this is not as horrible as warriors are, they have to invest more into a build then a warrior, however they just get too much bang and utility for too little investment.

The same pretty much applies to thief and mesmer. They dont have the sheer survivability of a warrior, but they have no real counterplay. They can basicly be stealthed most of the time, then burst you down in seconds, or force you to fight npcs all day long. These professions are broken because of stealth, and the absurdly broken thief weapon skill design. on top of that, they also get either extreme mobility or extreme utility for groups.

If you take a look into necromancers, elementalists and rangers, they are just weaker. They have distinct weaknesses, they have to invest into their build in order to work, and thus only if they really specc everything into the only thing that works they can keep up. these classes have basicly a lot of diferent possible builds, they just DONT work because the meta classes get more things for free through baseline.

so ya, if you want to “balance” necromancers, into the meta you would need to give them everything for free- thus limiting the possible build variety, the most builds just exist because there was the sheer need to create them due to weakness of the class

Brujeria.7536:

Its not only the lack of the movement or damage migation, or not even the lack of stability why the necromancers seems so useless in most specs. I think the problem is mostly within the other classes.

Every profession should have some distinct natural benefit and weakness. This cycle creates build diversity, if a class has more things to cover then just damage, or condition damage, or sustain, the player has to make choices. Has to adapt to the situation. Creating plays, tactics, and shifting the great meta in progress.

The weakness of the necromancer is pretty clear in this meta, a lack of a lot of things other classes get for free. Take a look:

Warriors: Huge natural HP and armor values. Huge base damage. CC skills that hit harder then burst skills of other classes. On demand immunities for every situation. Absurd high mobility on weapons that are supposed to burst and deal damage. Single weapons, that can provide the same damage and pressure then entiry builds of other classes. These class has no weakness, it has nothing to adapt a build around, it has absolutly no play, and no skill, has no single reason to adapt to any meta or situation due to powercreep and basicly getting everything valuable free.

Engineers: insane amount of cc, insane ammount of effects and utility, insane spaming of skills due to many kits, so many mechanics and functions packed onto the skills. this is not as horrible as warriors are, they have to invest more into a build then a warrior, however they just get too much bang and utility for too little investment.

The same pretty much applies to thief and mesmer. They dont have the sheer survivability of a warrior, but they have no real counterplay. They can basicly be stealthed most of the time, then burst you down in seconds, or force you to fight npcs all day long. These professions are broken because of stealth, and the absurdly broken thief weapon skill design. on top of that, they also get either extreme mobility or extreme utility for groups.

If you take a look into necromancers, elementalists and rangers, they are just weaker. They have distinct weaknesses, they have to invest into their build in order to work, and thus only if they really specc everything into the only thing that works they can keep up. these classes have basicly a lot of diferent possible builds, they just DONT work because the meta classes get more things for free through baseline.

so ya, if you want to “balance” necromancers, into the meta you would need to give them everything for free- thus limiting the possible build variety, the most builds just exist because there was the sheer need to create them due to weakness of the class

Necromancers though have the same hp as Warrior and are very resilient to condition by design (Consume Conditions, heal used by 90% of the necros, transfers, hp pool and DS pool to soak it up).
This come however with a great weakness to direct damage and no other realutility advantages, as pointed out. Once you cut through enormous HP pool and keep Necro in hard CC which comes easier and easier the more allies you have, Necromancer is just a DPS test dummy.

Well said.

Warrior should have stayed weak to conditions and strong against power while necromancer remains the opposite. If the balance philosophies were actually true then perhaps we would see balance.