Guild Wars 2

Considering Necros were designed from the ground-up to be the “masters of conditions”, is it surprising they are hard to kill with them? BTW, Death Shroud is really, really tough to build up with condition builds, due to having only one skill usually to build life force (and it doesn’t do all that much, considering any condition-free target grants no life force).

As I said before, Condition Duration is not available on gear, so it has to come from somewhere else (again, nobody takes Hemophilia if they’re any good). That is the primary difference between condition builds (which DO need 3 stats for damage) and Power builds. Condition builds can only get two of their stats from gear, so the third stat is survival (allowing the condition build to actually survive long enough to have a shot at killing things).

Signet of Spite, again, is not broken, nor overpowered. It is doing exactly what was intended and still has plenty of counterplay revolving around it. Try cleansing before it hits, for example. Or, you know, dodging/blocking the 1 second, highly telegraphed cast. Regardless of how you deal with it, it won’t be up again for a while.

@OP: you have to specific which game mode.

PvP: Yes, we need lower condi damage
WvW: Yes, lower it
PvE: It needs to be increased.

style.6173:

@OP: you have to specific which game mode.

PvP: Yes, we need lower condi damage
WvW: Yes, lower it
PvE: It needs to be increased.

It’s not nearly as simple as you lay it out.The problems with conditions are at the most basic level of mechanics, so any real fixes will be in a complete overhaul that touches PvP, WvW, and PvE. The condition caps need to go as they not only make condition builds unviable in PvE but also ruin some combo fields. I’d love to feel useful and put down a poison combo field for people to further poison a boss, but nope already at cap. It works against condition users to even put them down because it eats up condition space that they must have in order to do damage. In PvP and WvW there is just too much access to damaging conditions both in numbers and stacks. When a single class can put on burning, bleeding, torment, confusion, and poison of course it’s going to be more of a burst than attrition, not to mention that some classes can cap bleeding extremely easily. Without all those conditions though they are too easily cleared since cleanses kill full stacks leaving conditions lagging behind. This means that not only will stacks and access need to be changed but also cleanses. Since access will be limited that means conditions need to be balanced as far as damage and utility. Then of course we have base health figuring into it since higher health helps combat conditions.

Once you start going down the condition rabbit hole you’ll quickly find that it is extremely deep. It will take a long time to fix and given that ArenaNet is an incredibly slow developer it might never get done right. I suspect all we will see is bandaid fixes that either make conditions OP or useless because it never addresses the real issues.

Distaste.4801:

When a single class can put on burning, bleeding, torment, confusion, and poison of course it’s going to be more of a burst than attrition,

What class is this? Necros and Thieves don’t have Confusion, Engineers and Rangers lack Torment, Warriors and Mesmers lack Poison, Eles lack any damage conditions other than bleeding and burning. Guardians have nothing but burning…

Distaste.4801:

Once you start going down the condition rabbit hole you’ll quickly find that it is extremely deep. It will take a long time to fix and given that ArenaNet is an incredibly slow developer it might never get done right. I suspect all we will see is bandaid fixes that either make conditions OP or useless because it never addresses the real issues.

It is actually not deep at all. This is what we call, “trying to out think common sense.” Condition damage skills do less then thier direct damage counter parts, by a fair portion. This is why so many use 40% duration food and at list 10 points into a cond. duration line just to keep up. The problem is most players are not intelligent enough to be aware of this fact. Most players read one thread of blind complaints on the matter after getting killed a few times in WvW and regurgitate what they read, all the while, being completely ignorant of the facts.

There is absolutely no OP conditions, There are only OP builds, in which a specific combination of traits, combined with the right runes, and sigils, cause a possibility of an OP build.

I find it a bit interesting that you suggest they need to fix conditions when it seems you are not even aware of what the actual problem is. I mean, you appear not even to have knowledge of how every profession is limited to what conditions they have access too.

The first problem is that there is no real condition problem, the second problem is that those claiming there is a condition problem repeatedly display that they do not even have the foggiest idea of the mechanics, available, or function of conditions.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Distaste.4801:

When a single class can put on burning, bleeding, torment, confusion, and poison of course it’s going to be more of a burst than attrition,

What class is this? Necros and Thieves don’t have Confusion, Engineers and Rangers lack Torment, Warriors and Mesmers lack Poison, Eles lack any damage conditions other than bleeding and burning. Guardians have nothing but burning…

(WvW)

You forgetting about Runes and Sigils?

MIrra.3604:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Distaste.4801:

When a single class can put on burning, bleeding, torment, confusion, and poison of course it’s going to be more of a burst than attrition,

What class is this? Necros and Thieves don’t have Confusion, Engineers and Rangers lack Torment, Warriors and Mesmers lack Poison, Eles lack any damage conditions other than bleeding and burning. Guardians have nothing but burning…

(WvW)

You forgetting about Runes and Sigils?

No sigils cause Confusion and necros aren’t prone to using Perplexity due to the 6th bonus not working with Fear. Thieves lack Burning as well (another one that sigils can’t inflict, and the only runes that do it are terribly ineffective).

So, I suppose it’s possible for engies and rangers to be using sigils of Torment, but they usually run other sigils (Earth or Geomancy, usually), I still have to question what one class is putting on all of those.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

MIrra.3604:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Distaste.4801:

When a single class can put on burning, bleeding, torment, confusion, and poison of course it’s going to be more of a burst than attrition,

What class is this? Necros and Thieves don’t have Confusion, Engineers and Rangers lack Torment, Warriors and Mesmers lack Poison, Eles lack any damage conditions other than bleeding and burning. Guardians have nothing but burning…

(WvW)

You forgetting about Runes and Sigils?

No sigils cause Confusion and necros aren’t prone to using Perplexity due to the 6th bonus not working with Fear. Thieves lack Burning as well (another one that sigils can’t inflict, and the only runes that do it are terribly ineffective).

So, I suppose it’s possible for engies and rangers to be using sigils of Torment, but they usually run other sigils (Earth or Geomancy, usually), I still have to question what one class is putting on all of those.

Necro with 4 piece Perplexity will have access to all conditions; Confusion, Poison, Fear, Bleeding, Immo, Chill, Cripple, Burning, Weakness, Vul, Blind (did I get them all?).You are also forgetting corrupt boons and well of corruption will convert Retal to Confusion.

I answered your question. The class with access to all conditions is the Necro.

Necros don’t need runes for Confusion access, but very few run the Spectral Wall/Bone Fiend combo for it.

But fair enough.

the most broken condition at the moment is burning by the way.

it lasts too long, and/or does far too much damage per tick with the amount of effort required to use it. it’s totally broken.

MIrra.3604:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

MIrra.3604:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Distaste.4801:

When a single class can put on burning, bleeding, torment, confusion, and poison of course it’s going to be more of a burst than attrition,

What class is this? Necros and Thieves don’t have Confusion, Engineers and Rangers lack Torment, Warriors and Mesmers lack Poison, Eles lack any damage conditions other than bleeding and burning. Guardians have nothing but burning…

(WvW)

You forgetting about Runes and Sigils?

No sigils cause Confusion and necros aren’t prone to using Perplexity due to the 6th bonus not working with Fear. Thieves lack Burning as well (another one that sigils can’t inflict, and the only runes that do it are terribly ineffective).

So, I suppose it’s possible for engies and rangers to be using sigils of Torment, but they usually run other sigils (Earth or Geomancy, usually), I still have to question what one class is putting on all of those.

Necro with 4 piece Perplexity will have access to all conditions; Confusion, Poison, Fear, Bleeding, Immo, Chill, Cripple, Burning, Weakness, Vul, Blind (did I get them all?).You are also forgetting corrupt boons and well of corruption will convert Retal to Confusion.

I answered your question. The class with access to all conditions is the Necro.

whats so bad about a necro having access to all conditions? we are the class that thrives on condition/boon manipulation.

sinject.4607:

the most broken condition at the moment is burning by the way.

it lasts too long, and/or does far too much damage per tick with the amount of effort required to use it. it’s totally broken.

Based on what? What fact do you use to support that it is broken? Another prime example of posters making blind claims that work against logic and reason. A tick of burning can only go so high, as it can only stack in duration. Seems a bit comical that folks will make accusations and claims that a 800ish burn is broken, when you can have 25 stacks of bleeds on you for a 3,250 tick.

This thread just proves that people don’t want to have variable damage in this game. People want direct damage only and not have to think about things like condition removal or vitality. Lets just dumb the game down more and take out all stat combinations except PVT and berserker.

Heaven forbid that a necromancer actually be allow to protect his damage conditions and be allowed to do damage by covering them with a well timed Signet of Spite.

Problem with condition is the amount of innate survivability and sustain.

“But we need to survive that long to be effective.” – Said every condi build user ever.

^ is not justified by gear stats. More than enough classes have access to immobilize, stuns, cripples, chills, ect. An entire plethora of activated abilities that serve the purpose of sustain in a non passively low risk fashion.

Also having any condition last more than 10 seconds unless speccing hard into it (which means you should give something up) is not justified by the lack of base burst when at the end of the ticks you did almost as much as a glass cannon.

Daishi.6027:

Problem with condition is the amount of innate survivability and sustain.

Odd way to start your point, when it has already been solidly established that in almost all instanced, soldiers gear power builds out damage dire condition builds by a clear margin. Thus, the fact that power builds, have the same innate survivability, with more sustained.

coglin.1867:

Daishi.6027:

Problem with condition is the amount of innate survivability and sustain.

Odd way to start your point, when it has already been solidly established that in almost all instanced, soldiers gear power builds out damage dire condition builds by a clear margin. Thus, the fact that power builds, have the same innate survivability, with more sustained.

Context matters more than what is put on paper, and watching ticks hit for hit vs a normal mob or training dumby.

Most major burst or spike damage sources are easy to avoid and obvious and need to be out played. Condition damage is “I have 10+ skills plus a string of condition applies on my auto attack, lets see how many doges you have.” true their are more major condition applying skills that do a significant amount, along the lines of signet of spite and pin down for example. (both come out really fast btw unlike most burst combos) But the level of power with the added sustain is usually enough to carry the builds even without the larger “burst condi” skills.

The validation that “Power is stronger hit for hit” is only carried by the assumption something is going to be standing still. So if we’re talking PvE you sir are right, if we go PvP or WvW no it’s not evenly matched.

In b4 “but conditions can be cleared” – Unlike stun breakers there are very few activated skills that are useful on their own merits beyond being a clense that clean more than 2-3 conditions.

How much do you think power build auto-attacks hit for? Usually more than the 1k max you can get from condition auto attacks and, both cases being autos, you can’t dodge/block them all. Yes, this applies to ranged weapons as well.

And Signet of Spite does not “come out quick”. You can see ahead of time if the necro has the skill equipped, it has a very telegraphed cast, and 1 second is plenty of time to get your dodge in or interrupt (or block, whatever). And then you don’t need to worry about it for another minute.

As for the “condition cleanses only being good for condition cleansing”, what about skills that grant you protection? Aren’t they likewise only good for dealing with direct damage? Aren’t Stability skills only good for dealing with CC? If you decide to not use something to counter an attack type, you’re going to have a harder time with that attack type. Pretty simple.

Daishi.6027:

Most major burst or spike damage sources are easy to avoid and obvious and need to be out played. Condition damage is “I have 10+ skills plus a string of condition applies on my auto attack, lets see how many doges you have.” true their are more major condition applying skills that do a significant amount, along the lines of signet of spite and pin down for example. (both come out really fast btw unlike most burst combos) But the level of power with the added sustain is usually enough to carry the builds even without the larger “burst condi” skills.

First thing I see, is you are suggesting direct damage can be dodged while magically condition damage attacks cannot. So what are these magic builds that have 10 skills that apply damage conditions? Then you go on to list 2 of the longer recast heavy hitters for their respective professions. Both of which have similarly clear tells. Seems like your being unreasonably hypocritical here. Your claims that they come out really fast is just that, a claim, and a very inaccurate one. As well, the term “burst conditions” is an oxymoron.

Daishi.6027:

The validation that “Power is stronger hit for hit” is only carried by the assumption something is going to be standing still. So if we’re talking PvE you sir are right, if we go PvP or WvW no it’s not evenly matched.

Ahh I see. So your suggesting that again, magically direct damage attacks cannot hit a moving target. Yet your suggesting it is easier to hit a mobile target with. oh, say, engineer grenades thrown from a distance, or engineers bombs with a 2s delay, Now your just not making sense, or you have no experience with other professions and simply do not know how they work.

Daishi.6027:

In b4 “but conditions can be cleared” – Unlike stun breakers there are very few activated skills that are useful on their own merits beyond being a clense that clean more than 2-3 conditions.

So your suggesting cleansing does not negate a great deal of damage? The thing is, there are waaaaay to many direct damage builds that have a 3+ condition removal skill, as well as other forms of condition removal in traits, sigils, runes, and the negating food.

coglin.1867:

Both of which have similarly clear tells.

Pin Down doesn’t have much of a tell at all right now. It’s coming, though.

Variable damage like someone else said earlier I think is the core of this issue with condition damage.

If you are fighting 2 power builds generally you are prepared to handle 2 power builds. If you are fighting 1 power and 1 condition build then you are suddenly much weaker because you are stretched then.

Say I am on my Warrior with a standard 0/20/30/0/20 build. If I come across 2 power enemies then I can hang in there for a little bit. If I come across 1 power 1 condition then suddenly I am much weaker especially if the condition build has good poison uptime.

Any roamer in WvW worth his salt will mouse over the foods if they have a chance to. Now if I see 2 thieves that are power and I am on my warrior I might test them out then disengage to see if I can stretch them and then engage again. If one of those thieves is P/D condition 30 trickery then the fight is much different 1 being that his damage is coming from range. Suddenly cleansing ire and dogged march became a little more imporant.

I think the issue some people have is that if condition damage is nerfed enough then obviously they can get away with speccing less to deal with it and more towards dealing with power. Condition damage builds stretch the direct damage builds then.

I personally see both sides of the argument I have a engi that I just leveled to 80 and love it. I also have a Necro and I main elementalist. I don’t have a problem with condition builds in how it is implemented in the game. I do think 1 or maybe 2 cleanse utilities for all the professions could either use a small reduction in its cd or a extra condition removed not all their utilities I feel 1 would be enough.

coglin.1867:

Daishi.6027:

Most major burst or spike damage sources are easy to avoid and obvious and need to be out played. Condition damage is “I have 10+ skills plus a string of condition applies on my auto attack, lets see how many doges you have.” true their are more major condition applying skills that do a significant amount, along the lines of signet of spite and pin down for example. (both come out really fast btw unlike most burst combos) But the level of power with the added sustain is usually enough to carry the builds even without the larger “burst condi” skills.

First thing I see, is you are suggesting direct damage can be dodged while magically condition damage attacks cannot. So what are these magic builds that have 10 skills that apply damage conditions? Then you go on to list 2 of the longer recast heavy hitters for their respective professions. Both of which have similarly clear tells. Seems like your being unreasonably hypocritical here. Your claims that they come out really fast is just that, a claim, and a very inaccurate one. As well, the term “burst conditions” is an oxymoron.

I think you need to re-read his post again. He said most “burst” such as mesmer shatter combo. This is different versus conditions . I mean as a necro, you swing your AA and apply bleeding, bleeding, poison, some more bleeding, and a burning proc.

Maybe you need to re-read his post yourself.

You do? You apply that with every single swing of your auto attack, which is what you are clearly attempting to imply. That is impressive. What build is it that accomplishes this. What is your total damage in 10 hits with this mystical and magical auto attack? Perhaps you could actually try offering some facts and information rather then I made a such and such profession and proced a few of my traits and my sigil on one crit once. I killed a gopher with a stick once. Does that mean every time a swing a stick that gophers dies?

Every post that tries to use a specific skill makes a reference to necromancers. If you want to talk about condition do so, but use more then one specific skill on one specific profession.. If you have an issue with necros, make a cry about necro thread and stop trying to derail this into a necro is OP thread please.

I am trying to understand how a single profession has a single weapon, that you feel you can use to represent all conditions, and use a specific weapons auto attack on a specific profession to claim that conditions across the board, on all professions need a nerf.

coglin.1867:

Maybe you need to re-read his post yourself.

You do? You apply that with every single swing of your auto attack, which is what you are clearly attempting to imply. That is impressive. What build is it that accomplishes this. What is your total damage in 10 hits with this mystical and magical auto attack? Perhaps you could actually try offering some facts and information rather then I made a such and such profession and proced a few of my traits and my sigil on one crit once. I killed a gopher with a stick once. Does that mean every time a swing a stick that gophers dies?

Every post that tries to use a specific skill makes a reference to necromancers. If you want to talk about condition do so, but use more then one specific skill on one specific profession.. If you have an issue with necros, make a cry about necro thread and stop trying to derail this into a necro is OP thread please.

I am trying to understand how a single profession has a single weapon, that you feel you can use to represent all conditions, and use a specific weapons auto attack on a specific profession to claim that conditions across the board, on all professions need a nerf.

You are taking my post totally out of context. I was merely using necro AA has an example of how you cannot dodge condition as easily as BURST combo/skills.

Of course you could argue that power AA will hit, hit, and hit and apply damage. But I was talking about BURST – so please re-read my post.

Distaste.4801:

Once you start going down the condition rabbit hole you’ll quickly find that it is extremely deep. It will take a long time to fix and given that ArenaNet is an incredibly slow developer it might never get done right. I suspect all we will see is bandaid fixes that either make conditions OP or useless because it never addresses the real issues.

+1 for you, Sir. I agree with everything in your post.

Lalangamena.3694:

directly nerfing condition damage will not achieve anything.

more stat synergy is required.
what should be done is that healing power will affect conditions just like toughness affect direct damage.

this way, if you want to be more resistant to conditions, you should give up some damage and invest into HP.

My high armor, high healing power support and healing guardian loves this idea.

The problems with GW2 can’t be fixed.

style.6173:

@OP: you have to specific which game mode.

PvP: Yes, we need lower condi damage
WvW: Yes, lower it
PvE: It needs to be increased.

It’s like people don’t even play the game. The large number of groups in WvW are very guardian and warrior heavy. You know… the ones that GvG. Now let me ask a question. How many of those types of groups use condition necros? And now another question. Why not?

So, there is the problem. How do you reign in conditions without totally destroying all condition builds for large scale fights?

Answer: you don’t because these problems aren’t fixable without redesigning the entire game.

Condition damage is fine in general, the only things that have to be changed is:

• the condition cap. It has to be removed
• the massive condition cleans capabilities in WvW Zerks have to be reduced.

unleashed.8679:

Condition damage is fine in general, the only things that have to be changed is:

• the condition cap. It has to be removed
• the massive condition cleans capabilities in WvW Zerks have to be reduced.

It is not fine, its broken and needs to be reworked.

Kukchi.6173:

unleashed.8679:

Condition damage is fine in general, the only things that have to be changed is:

• the condition cap. It has to be removed
• the massive condition cleans capabilities in WvW Zerks have to be reduced.

It is not fine, its broken and needs to be reworked.

Based on what? got a fact, comparison, or even a reason, to back up your claim? Based on the actual fact that direct damage builds clearly out damage condition builds, blind and unsupported one liners like this do not make a lot of sense, nor does it add value to the conversation. If we want mindless one liners, we will watch old Rodney Dangerfield stand up videos. Here we prefer a little information, explanation, or facts to put meaning to a claim.

Healing power already affects your ability to eat condition damage if you are experiencing a passive heal or regeneration boon. Beyond that, vitality is your primary stat to defend yourself from vitality. If you want to be able to fight them well invest in more vit but in doing so you’ll have to pull from other stats.

People have choices on how they wish to play, they just don’t grasp the fact you can’t have it all.

My only complaint on conditions is more targeted at confusion and the retaliation boon. Both of which I wish were removed from the game as any dummy can apply these and profit. Of course you can just stop attacking for both boon and condition but the damage that comes from both of these and their uptime is absolutely ridiculous. Guardians can reach perma retal uptime and mesmers, engineers, and thieves can maintain high uptime on confusion. Perplexity rune needs to be fixed if they won’t remove confusion and retail should just be merged with Aegis to provide dmg upon block.

coglin.1867:

Kukchi.6173:

unleashed.8679:

Condition damage is fine in general, the only things that have to be changed is:

• the condition cap. It has to be removed
• the massive condition cleans capabilities in WvW Zerks have to be reduced.

It is not fine, its broken and needs to be reworked.

Based on what? got a fact, comparison, or even a reason, to back up your claim? Based on the actual fact that direct damage builds clearly out damage condition builds, blind and unsupported one liners like this do not make a lot of sense, nor does it add value to the conversation. If we want mindless one liners, we will watch old Rodney Dangerfield stand up videos. Here we prefer a little information, explanation, or facts to put meaning to a claim.

The problem he is probably referring to is small scale to large scale group fights in WvW when you can have 5 condition based classes in a zerg and they can really decimate another zerg lacking condition removals or whirl finishes in light fields. Most conditions are easily replaceable which makes condition cleansing never enough in group fights.

Get a condinecro, condiengi, glamour mesmer, a guardian, and a random. Throw this group behind a melee train and you’ll see the guardian get 12 stacks of might for group and stability, condinecro will light up the enemy zerg with marks, condi engineer with grenade spam, glamour mesmer will cause boon removal and confusion/conditions, and the necro will epidemic all that kitten. Watch people melt if their condition cleanses don’t go off fast enough.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

coglin.1867:

Kukchi.6173:

unleashed.8679:

Condition damage is fine in general, the only things that have to be changed is:

• the condition cap. It has to be removed
• the massive condition cleans capabilities in WvW Zerks have to be reduced.

It is not fine, its broken and needs to be reworked.

Based on what? got a fact, comparison, or even a reason, to back up your claim? Based on the actual fact that direct damage builds clearly out damage condition builds, blind and unsupported one liners like this do not make a lot of sense, nor does it add value to the conversation. If we want mindless one liners, we will watch old Rodney Dangerfield stand up videos. Here we prefer a little information, explanation, or facts to put meaning to a claim.

The problem he is probably referring to is small scale to large scale group fights in WvW when you can have 5 condition based classes in a zerg and they can really decimate another zerg lacking condition removals or whirl finishes in light fields. Most conditions are easily replaceable which makes condition cleansing never enough in group fights.

Get a condinecro, condiengi, glamour mesmer, a guardian, and a random. Throw this group behind a melee train and you’ll see the guardian get 12 stacks of might for group and stability, condinecro will light up the enemy zerg with marks, condi engineer with grenade spam, glamour mesmer will cause boon removal and confusion/conditions, and the necro will epidemic all that kitten. Watch people melt if their condition cleanses don’t go off fast enough.

An organized power based group will destroy unorganized PUGs just as easily, probably quicker since a power well necro can absolutely destroy PUGs faster than a condition based necro can. Why don’t the guilds who do GvGs against each other run condition based groups?

Proposed: Change WHICH conditions get cleansed first.

How? Conditions are removed in order of the amount of damage they have left to do (total over all ticks).

Why? This makes condition removal more effective against BIG damage while focusing condition damage around applying multiple conditions and reapplying. It also acts as a slight buff to crowd control conditions which need a bit of love in the stability and melee centric warrior/guardian meta.

In short, the problem with condition damage is that a cleanse is just as likely to remove the LAST condition you want removed as the one that is really hurting you.

Oozo.7856:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

coglin.1867:

Kukchi.6173:

unleashed.8679:

Condition damage is fine in general, the only things that have to be changed is:

• the condition cap. It has to be removed
• the massive condition cleans capabilities in WvW Zerks have to be reduced.

It is not fine, its broken and needs to be reworked.

Based on what? got a fact, comparison, or even a reason, to back up your claim? Based on the actual fact that direct damage builds clearly out damage condition builds, blind and unsupported one liners like this do not make a lot of sense, nor does it add value to the conversation. If we want mindless one liners, we will watch old Rodney Dangerfield stand up videos. Here we prefer a little information, explanation, or facts to put meaning to a claim.

The problem he is probably referring to is small scale to large scale group fights in WvW when you can have 5 condition based classes in a zerg and they can really decimate another zerg lacking condition removals or whirl finishes in light fields. Most conditions are easily replaceable which makes condition cleansing never enough in group fights.

Get a condinecro, condiengi, glamour mesmer, a guardian, and a random. Throw this group behind a melee train and you’ll see the guardian get 12 stacks of might for group and stability, condinecro will light up the enemy zerg with marks, condi engineer with grenade spam, glamour mesmer will cause boon removal and confusion/conditions, and the necro will epidemic all that kitten. Watch people melt if their condition cleanses don’t go off fast enough.

An organized power based group will destroy unorganized PUGs just as easily, probably quicker since a power well necro can absolutely destroy PUGs faster than a condition based necro can. Why don’t the guilds who do GvGs against each other run condition based groups?

Due to the copious amounts of condition removals that affect up to 5 people around you. My guardian was built for around 1k healing power with food and condition cleansing and boons (and I could still swing my hammer). If condition removal was reduced to primarily self and not groups we may see more but then aoe conditions would become more of a problem.

Bombsaway.7198:

Proposed: Change WHICH conditions get cleansed first.

How? Conditions are removed in order of the amount of damage they have left to do (total over all ticks).

Why? This makes condition removal more effective against BIG damage while focusing condition damage around applying multiple conditions and reapplying. It also acts as a slight buff to crowd control conditions which need a bit of love in the stability and melee centric warrior/guardian meta.

In short, the problem with condition damage is that a cleanse is just as likely to remove the LAST condition you want removed as the one that is really hurting you.

Then whats the point of getting condition damage if your MAIN source of damage will be removed?

as for CC conditions the only one that is great is Immobilize because you cant move and your a free target to be hammer trained. This is more dangerous than any damage based condition.
a close 2nd would be chill.

Brando.1374:

Bombsaway.7198:

Proposed: Change WHICH conditions get cleansed first.

How? Conditions are removed in order of the amount of damage they have left to do (total over all ticks).

Why? This makes condition removal more effective against BIG damage while focusing condition damage around applying multiple conditions and reapplying. It also acts as a slight buff to crowd control conditions which need a bit of love in the stability and melee centric warrior/guardian meta.

In short, the problem with condition damage is that a cleanse is just as likely to remove the LAST condition you want removed as the one that is really hurting you.

Then whats the point of getting condition damage if your MAIN source of damage will be removed?

as for CC conditions the only one that is great is Immobilize because you cant move and your a free target to be hammer trained. This is more dangerous than any damage based condition.
a close 2nd would be chill.

I don’t believe you should try to make condition cleanses work based on severity. If you keep it simple and it’s just based on time of application, you remove the bickering of both sides of the debate that, well if I get hit with poison, I want my cleanse to remove that first or I get 20 stacks of confusion, my cleanse should remove that first.

Leave it based on time of application and removal oldest condition and be done with it.

And this is why WvW, PvE, and PvP will never be properly balanced.

TooBz.3065:

And this is why WvW, PvE, and PvP will never be properly balanced.

Exactly.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Brando.1374:

Bombsaway.7198:

Proposed: Change WHICH conditions get cleansed first.

How? Conditions are removed in order of the amount of damage they have left to do (total over all ticks).

Why? This makes condition removal more effective against BIG damage while focusing condition damage around applying multiple conditions and reapplying. It also acts as a slight buff to crowd control conditions which need a bit of love in the stability and melee centric warrior/guardian meta.

In short, the problem with condition damage is that a cleanse is just as likely to remove the LAST condition you want removed as the one that is really hurting you.

Then whats the point of getting condition damage if your MAIN source of damage will be removed?

as for CC conditions the only one that is great is Immobilize because you cant move and your a free target to be hammer trained. This is more dangerous than any damage based condition.
a close 2nd would be chill.

I don’t believe you should try to make condition cleanses work based on severity. If you keep it simple and it’s just based on time of application, you remove the bickering of both sides of the debate that, well if I get hit with poison, I want my cleanse to remove that first or I get 20 stacks of confusion, my cleanse should remove that first.

Leave it based on time of application and removal oldest condition and be done with it.

while thats great first in first out type of removal, Most players will eventyually find a way to keep their main damage condi on the class by stacking other conditions first.

currently their needs to be a way to have condi removal skills say what conditions it removes, similar to Hide in Shadows http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hide_in_Shadows
or at least apply this to AOE condi removal.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

TooBz.3065:

And this is why WvW, PvE, and PvP will never be properly balanced.

Exactly.

Perfect. Because it has been clearly stayed that Wvw is not intended to be balanced. I findit funny that players such as this are perfectly fine that they can Are spam 27 hammer CC in a row on me for 25 s of knocked down time, but the second more then one player hits them with a condition, they run to the forums to cry fowl.

@coglin

You have a nack for picking out minor points and twisting them in a way that is irritating when they are irreverent to begin with. I’m not sure if your a troll or just so pressured under the fact that so many people dislike the current state of conditions, and you wish to continue to roll your no risk/high reward builds.

" Then you go on to list 2 of the longer recast heavy hitters for their respective professions."

Was nothing more than a point about the difference between burst and condi. You then you nit pic about examples to show the higher hitters when my point was that those skills even when avoided does not shift pressure in a fight.

“So your suggesting that again, magically direct damage attacks cannot hit a moving target.”

This was an exaggerated claim that was meant to imply “doges/evades/invulns/ect.” you know skills that evade skills. lol

“So your suggesting cleansing does not negate a great deal of damage?”

lol no I’m just saying skills that are “stun breakers” are taken not because they are stun breakers but because of their active effect. People only take condition removing skills only to counter conditions, the skills have very little merit on their own.

Why else would someone take “Smite Condition?” or “Mantra of Resolve”?

But then you get things like “Frenzy”(before the nerf I guess), “Mirror Images”, and “Judge’s Intervention” which are good skills on their own merits but happen to be Stun Breakers.

At the end of the day I’m actually fine how conditions work I just think the amulets need less beefy stats, or the builds need less innate survivability… Annnd/or perhaps a slight reduction or change to base durations.

Yet you have failed to suggest you debate from a strictly s PvP stand point. As well, it would help if you offered facts to support a claim that conditions are OP relative to direct damage. For example the damage of a hammer warrior auto attack does 23% more damage then any of a bunker engineers auto attacks, with 32% more health per second regeneration, more hp, more toughness, yet everyone cries bunker engineers are OP. So yeah, I have trouble taking your "context argument serioisly. Particularly when you avoid offering actual facts.

It gets real old hat when folks such as yourself claim something needs a nerf, while making any effect to avoid offering facts, but do as you are and base it on how it feels to you in game, offering such unspecific scenarios and unspecific situations as argumentative justification.

As of now, literally no one in the “nerf conditions” category is doing anything other then demanding a nerf. No one, and I mean no one is doing a damage comparison or offer specific numbers or situations to support the argument. All everyone is doing is complaining that they dislike a condition meta exactly like the did about the direct damage meta before the condition meta. The only difference is that they changed the direct damage based on hundreds of videos displaying damage, posters showing the math, and comparisons. Now that damage has equalized, folks demand a condition nerf just because conditions annoy them.

Until you actually offer video comparison evidence, damage comparisons, or even any actually fact, all you are doing is belly aching. Just like you make “exaggerated claim that was meant to imply” s you put it, then berate me when I speak out against the specific exaggerated claims. So you feel it is okay for you to exaggerate claims all you like, admit to it, then lecture me when I cannot take you seriously after I have posted damage value comparisons and situation videos in many threads over recent months to support my argument.

Daishi.6027:

At the end of the day I’m actually fine how conditions work

Then why do you keep demanding they are OP and repeated posting on a thread titled “nerf condition damage” ?

Daishi.6027:

I just think the amulets need less beefy stats, or the builds need less innate survivability… Annnd/or perhaps a slight reduction or change to base durations.

And why do you think this? This is where the entire issues lays. You suggest a change is needed but not offering an actual reason for it. No one can even have a conversation about this with you, all we can do is debate it against your stance, because the numbers and situation facts show that conditions already do less damage then direct damage builds do.

Condition Damage isn’t overpowered..

I’ve explained this in countless threads.

If I was to fight someone that could apply 10 Stacks of Bleed on me and nothing else

I would choose to fight that person every single time over a person who could apply 5 Stacks of Bleed, Cripple, Chill, Vulnerability…Even though the 5 STacks of Bleed is way less damage then 10 stacks….

Because Condition Damage isn’t what is powerful..

Condition Coverage is what makes Conditions powerful…..You could apply bleeds on me all day long, but if you don’t have anything to cover that bleed…I’ll shrug it off.

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

Terravos.4059:

Condition Damage isn’t overpowered..

I’ve explained this in countless threads.

If I was to fight someone that could apply 10 Stacks of Bleed on me and nothing else

I would choose to fight that person every single time over a person who could apply 5 Stacks of Bleed, Cripple, Chill, Vulnerability…Even though the 5 STacks of Bleed is way less damage then 10 stacks….

Because Condition Damage isn’t what is powerful..

Condition Coverage is what makes Conditions powerful…..You could apply bleeds on me all day long, but if you don’t have anything to cover that bleed…I’ll shrug it off.

At first glance, what you state here seems reasonably practical. Until you notice that if you never once cleanse a condition, that power builds still have a higher damage capabilities condition builds on the whole, compared to condition builds when the conditions applied, never get cleansed. All this is coming from the guy who has leveled all 8 professions to 80 in WvW, yet I still main the profession that arguably has the least available condition removal of them all, and I see no issue with conditions damage, duration, or the amount available.

Brando.1374:

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

Not to mention that the condition damage took 10s to kill, while the power build took only 6s to do it.

Brando.1374:

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

was the power build a soldier amulet? didnt see evidence in video

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

was the power build a soldier amulet? didnt see evidence in video

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/b/509047491

thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

was the power build a soldier amulet? didnt see evidence in video

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/b/509047491

thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers

So you weigh in the effectiveness of a condi-rabid but don’t realize the effective defense it brings?

Effectively, that is why glass cannons are considered glass since you know they lack vitality or toughness.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

So you weigh in the effectiveness of a condi-rabid but don’t realize the effective defense it brings?

Effectively, that is why glass cannons are considered glass since you know they lack vitality or toughness.

Likewise, you weigh in on survivability without remembering that durability is a necessity for condition builds. A theoretical “glass cannon” condition build would die before they kill anything. It takes too long for them to do so.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

was the power build a soldier amulet? didnt see evidence in video

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/b/509047491

thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers

So you weigh in the effectiveness of a condi-rabid but don’t realize the effective defense it brings?

Effectively, that is why glass cannons are considered glass since you know they lack vitality or toughness.

I also weigh in the fact that the golem has 0 condi removal/immunity.
Also its a heavy golem. (not sure how much armor) and the Power build still did that kind of damage.
Just an FYI if you watch the 6m vid, the first time I killed the golem with power I was still using undead runes......still 6s kill

when I get a chance I record in ptv