Guild Wars 2

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

was the power build a soldier amulet? didnt see evidence in video

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/b/509047491

thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers

the condi equivalent of zerk would be condi dmg / prec / condi duration… why do you think rabid vs zerk is a valid comparison? i think valk would be more applicable. or maybe spvp knights.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

So you weigh in the effectiveness of a condi-rabid but don’t realize the effective defense it brings?

Effectively, that is why glass cannons are considered glass since you know they lack vitality or toughness.

I already posted results with knights gear vs rabid previously. Equal toughness and HP, yet still the same 10s for condition kill but 8s for Knight. This is just for necromancer. The difference sloped in favor of power builds even more with the engineer. The top two condition professions both do more damage with power builds. Yet you argue that conditions need a nerf eh? How did you come to this conclusion? Do you have a fact, or even a reasonable example to support your suggestion that conditions are over powered my friend?

insanemaniac.2456:

the condi equivalent of zerk would be condi dmg / prec / condi duration… why do you think rabid vs zerk is a valid comparison? i think valk would be more applicable. or maybe spvp knights.

I agree, zerker to rabid isn’t congruent. See the above knights gear explanation. FYI, we do not have weapons, armor or trinkets that have condition duration on them, nor does PvP have a condition duration amulet.

I have also posted vids and damage comparisons in previous threads of soldiers compared to dire with all 8 profession. As well as the percentage of damage direct damage builds out damaged condition builds. In the case of the engineer for example (a notorious condition user)…In breaking down the skills damage and showing how +100 power food with engineer rifle (thier only power based weapon) did compared to adding 50% condition duration to pistol/pistol (the professions only full condi weapon set) and rifle still out damaged P/P by 3.7%……the damage was double that percentage in favor of power for grenades, and 21% in favor of power for bombs. Again, dire compared to soldier in that particular instance. In all 4 weapon comparisons, direct damage was clearly in favor after 50% condition duration was applied. All of the damage was assessed with out conditions being cleansed.

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

was the power build a soldier amulet? didnt see evidence in video

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/b/509047491

thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers

the condi equivalent of zerk would be condi dmg / prec / condi duration... why do you think rabid vs zerk is a valid comparison? i think valk would be more applicable. or maybe spvp knights.

Duration means next to nothing in a pvp environment due to condi removal.

Im going for max damage. in a condi build 30/20/0/10/10 isnt max condition damage.
0/30/30/10/0 will give you max condi damage with undead runes. (1503)
in the clips I was running 1387 condi dmg http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQNArYWjc0UebjNW2wejCZqw3A949wFQMSxxEMUFKHA-TsAAzCpIaS1krJTTymsNNqY5x0DA

I was going to Max damage on power. I should have used 30/25/0/0/15 but I didnt.
I used this http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQJAYWjc00SbNNO2webiY+g3ge8ec5sYGHjYA-ToAg0CnI4SxljLDXSuscNKY5B

if you want I will run valk or ptv for my next attempt

What’s the point of being a Glass cannon if you can’t burst something down or keep heavy pressure on a target? To kill other glass cannons? lol?

If Condi is as tanky as a bunker but can easily melt glass, and do damage ignored by toughness and invulns on a power bunker… What’s the point?

Daishi.6027:

What’s the point of being a Glass cannon if you can’t burst something down or keep heavy pressure on a target? To kill other glass cannons? lol?

If Condi is as tanky as a bunker but can easily melt glass, and do damage ignored by toughness and invulns on a power bunker… What’s the point?

The point of a glass cannon is NOT to keep prelonged heavy pressure on a target. That’s why it’s called a glass cannon. You do heavy damage for a short amount of time, but die easily.

And condition builds are definitely not as tanky as a bunker, but yes they can easily melt glass. In fact, just about anything can easily melt glass, because they are glass!

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

was the power build a soldier amulet? didnt see evidence in video

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/b/509047491

thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers

the condi equivalent of zerk would be condi dmg / prec / condi duration... why do you think rabid vs zerk is a valid comparison? i think valk would be more applicable. or maybe spvp knights.

Duration means next to nothing in a pvp environment due to condi removal.

Im going for max damage. in a condi build 30/20/0/10/10 isnt max condition damage.
0/30/30/10/0 will give you max condi damage with undead runes. (1503)
in the clips I was running 1387 condi dmg http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQNArYWjc0UebjNW2wejCZqw3A949wFQMSxxEMUFKHA-TsAAzCpIaS1krJTTymsNNqY5x0DA

I was going to Max damage on power. I should have used 30/25/0/0/15 but I didnt.
I used this http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQJAYWjc00SbNNO2webiY+g3ge8ec5sYGHjYA-ToAg0CnI4SxljLDXSuscNKY5B

if you want I will run valk or ptv for my next attempt

Your tests are also very biased to power. You have power wells dropped with signet of spite equipped giving you even more power. Also, you didn’t use signet of spite in your condition dps test which right there will also give you a boost in dps. It may not be enough to make a drastic change but you equipped utilities that boosted your dps then stated dagger AA spam needs a nerf. Really, it’s like trying to prove this car will go faster than the other and give one nitro.

In a fight that will last longer than 10 seconds, condition damage will still come out on top as the abilities done by most direct damage attacks will be on cool down applying little to no conditions to maintain the sustain while your conditions applied by a scepter, for instance, will offer little direct damage but maintains a high duration stackable bleed that will continue to do damage while the cooldown refreshes. I don’t mention cleanses because condition users can also use damage absorbing abilities as well depending on the class or other forms of mobility, hard cc, and soft cc to reduce melee gc and sometimes certain range gc classes.

Looking at the bigger picture going off your slanted test for dagger spam, I would say the different in damage done is acceptable due to other variables that can’t be accounted for without trying and testing ever single little spec/setup. Your test makes it difficult to prove anything other than that condition damage takes a tiny bit longer to take off but has the potential to do more damage in a longer duration of time.

@Coglin "Yet you argue that conditions need a nerf eh? How did you come to this conclusion? Do you have a fact, or even a reasonable example to support your suggestion that conditions are over powered my friend?"

I’m not sure where you thought I was coming from. Throughout the thread I actually support condition damage where it is at, minus confusion and the retaliation boon, and feel conditions are in a good place. They are easily applied which means their damage doesn’t need to be boosted at all nor their duration since it is expected to be cleansed in a short period of time after applying. My only argument is that every fight will be different in spvp and wvw based on spec and which class brings the most counters for the opposite damage type. I just found Brando’s tests to show that direct dmg was stronger and should be nerfed to be fallible. In my previous posts, I state that confusion and retaliation are too much cruise control for success.

From my point of view, the main problem of power builds is that you have to consistently land your damage. It is even more so for melee power builds. You can be kited around, pushed back, blinked out, dodged, etc.

Oth condition specs require a lot less successful hits. And once you land your conditions, they will deal the damage even if target dodges, runs away, goes to stealth. And since good condition builds are cappable of spamming tons of different conditions all the time, cleansing is not really that effective.

The difference in effort needed to pressure someone between condi and power build is quite big. And something definitely needs to be done about it.

You have to hit your opponent with both damage types to apply your damage. Conditions wont do magically damage, just because you are in fight without hitting your enemy. The only difference is that conditions don’t apply their damage at once so when you receive damage, even if you are dodging etc. means you got hit earlier and you would have lost a lot of health from a equivalent direct damage attack.

Conditions have a mental advantage over direct damage burst, because the damage is rising. People first think they wont receive much damage so they forget about their defense until it is too late. And because conditions still deal damage while dodging/blocking most people think it is useless to do so against condi builds (which is not true) you will block new damage dealt to you, the old ones still remain same like direct damage.

Conditions are just sneaky and not as obvious as direct damage is.

Well consider this:

You enter a fight with someone, you both do your basic damage rotation rotatin and land some hits.

As a power build you’re faced with a choice next. You either start to go on defensive, dodging, blocking, healing, but not dealing damage. Or you continue to pressure, while taking the risk with low health.

As a condi build you don’t really have such a problem. After you landed your conditions you can focus on just surviving for some time, while you still apply pressure to the enemy. It really promotes bad gameplay style of bunkering up and outlasting opponent.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

Your tests are also very biased to power. You have power wells dropped with signet of spite equipped giving you even more power. Also, you didn’t use signet of spite in your condition dps test which right there will also give you a boost in dps. It may not be enough to make a drastic change but you equipped utilities that boosted your dps then stated dagger AA spam needs a nerf. Really, it’s like trying to prove this car will go faster than the other and give one nitro.

You must not be familiar with what necro skills actually do. Activating Signet of Spite is, under most circumstances, a DPS loss due to the activation time. 2 stacks of bleed and poison is it for damage, and a condition build will already have poison on you anyway. He used in in the power build to enable the damage boost from Target the Weak.

Condition builds, meanwhile, use it to get cover conditions. Since the Golem doesn’t cleanse, that use was worthless and, since it would be a DPS loss to activate it, he didn’t bother even equipping it for the mere 180 power.

Isslair.4908:

Well consider this:

You enter a fight with someone, you both do your basic damage rotation rotatin and land some hits.

As a power build you’re faced with a choice next. You either start to go on defensive, dodging, blocking, healing, but not dealing damage. Or you continue to pressure, while taking the risk with low health.

As a condi build you don’t really have such a problem. After you landed your conditions you can focus on just surviving for some time, while you still apply pressure to the enemy. It really promotes bad gameplay style of bunkering up and outlasting opponent.

Wrong. You already pressured your opponent. That’s what the condition ticks are: attacks that already hit. A Power build would have just done all that damage already. And how is “outlasting your opponent” (aka attrition) bad gameplay?

So conditions are like the OP rock to beat OP scissors, the game also has OP paper to beat OP rock. Every class has OP builds and Anet seems to be embracing that philosophy with constant power creeps.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

And how is “outlasting your opponent” (aka attrition) bad gameplay?

Any low risk-high reward builds are bad.

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362

using Valk amulet

Result, still around 6s kill and faster than a condition build.

Isslair.4908:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

And how is “outlasting your opponent” (aka attrition) bad gameplay?

Any low risk-high reward builds are bad.

Good thing, then, that it’s moderate risk moderate reward. Pure bunker condition builds are just as dangerous as pure bunker power builds. More dangerous condition builds have less defense.

Isslair.4908:

Oth condition specs require a lot less successful hits. And once you land your conditions, they will deal the damage even if target dodges, runs away, goes to stealth. And since good condition builds are cappable of spamming tons of different conditions all the time, cleansing is not really that effective.

The difference in effort needed to pressure someone between condi and power build is quite big. And something definitely needs to be done about it.

This doesn’t make any sense what so ever. How do you think those conditions get applied? I will let you in on a little secret. I probably should PM this to you, because I wouldn’t want this to get out to the whole world. So don’t tell anyone, but you actually have to actually land all of your damage to land all of your conditions.

As well the difference in effort is quit the opposite of what your stating. You need more time as it takes conditions longer to do the damage. Then again, you didn’t even know that damage has to land to apply conditions. That does make me curious as to one thing though. How in the heck did youthink we did condition damage without landing our skills?

Isslair.4908:

As a condi build you don’t really have such a problem. After you landed your conditions you can focus on just surviving for some time, while you still apply pressure to the enemy. It really promotes bad gameplay style of bunkering up and outlasting opponent.

What are you basing this on? We have already established that if the condition user and the direct damage user land their damage, the direct damage user would have cost the opponent alot more health. How does doing less damage to you opponent then they do to you, apply more pressure? What your stating here makes absolutely no sense.

Thanks for the tests Kak. Very good. Coglin do you have links for your videos or threads that you mention?

I never really had a problem with conditions at all. My personal stance was they can keep them as is or nerf them. This last page and a half swayed me to the side that condition builds are fine and condition damage is fine.

If you take a condition weapon set and make it power usually it still kills faster then condi. Just looking at the condition weapons I never played power necro with staff but I would think even there it would kill faster.

I know a P/D power thief will definitely kill faster then a P/D condi thief.

A scepter mesmer will kill faster if is power then conditions because mirror images does more then blurred frenzy but when you see scepter you think condition.

I can’t even make a case for Mesmer staff because Warlock can hit for over 10k damage easy in a power build lol. Even mage is better as power then condi.

It really is simple and there in front of my eyes all this time and I have 7 classes at 80 and play power and condi on all of them except certain ones stay either or. If you got hit with 10 power attacks or 10 condition attacks the 10 power attacks would kill you everytime faster. So condition damage is basically attrition because you will always die slower to a condi build no matter what.

If you make conditions less effective then it becomes Power zerk vs Power bunker builds. Power bunker builds will when that fight every time condition builds keep the power bunkers in check. Everything keeps zerk in check but the user gets the reward of quick kills.

This really swayed my personal opinion it really mental. When you look it even if you set up a condition class for max damage like dire you still will kill slower everytime.

unleashed.8679:

You have to hit your opponent with both damage types to apply your damage. Conditions wont do magically damage, just because you are in fight without hitting your enemy. The only difference is that conditions don’t apply their damage at once so when you receive damage, even if you are dodging etc. means you got hit earlier and you would have lost a lot of health from a equivalent direct damage attack.

Conditions have a mental advantage over direct damage burst, because the damage is rising. People first think they wont receive much damage so they forget about their defense until it is too late. And because conditions still deal damage while dodging/blocking most people think it is useless to do so against condi builds (which is not true) you will block new damage dealt to you, the old ones still remain same like direct damage.

Conditions are just sneaky and not as obvious as direct damage is.

Think of the most notorious weapon sets for condition builds change just a few traits and run it as power and that weapon set will kill faster as power every single time. Grenades, Necro staff, Pistol/dagger, Scepter for Mesmer etc.

People don’t usually run those as power because they aren’t the best at power but power will always kill faster.

Really I can’t think at this time any weapon in the entire game that would kill faster as condition damage then as power is there even one?

Isslair.4908:

Well consider this:

You enter a fight with someone, you both do your basic damage rotation rotatin and land some hits.

As a power build you’re faced with a choice next. You either start to go on defensive, dodging, blocking, healing, but not dealing damage. Or you continue to pressure, while taking the risk with low health.

As a condi build you don’t really have such a problem. After you landed your conditions you can focus on just surviving for some time, while you still apply pressure to the enemy. It really promotes bad gameplay style of bunkering up and outlasting opponent.

Lets take two theory builds:
Both builds attack once every second.
The direct damage build deals 1k damage instant.
The condi build deals 200damage + a 8s bleed (100dmg/sec)
The target has 15k health.

Both builds deal the same damage per hit, so both needs to hit the target 15 times to kill it. After the 15th hit, the power build is done, the condi build needs to survive 8 more seconds or attack further to kill the target faster.
______________

So in the end, its two different playstyles. The powerbuild builds up his pressure at the beginning of the fight while the condition build needs 8 seconds to build up the same pressure (1k DPS). The fight lasts longer with a condition build. And if both builds miss their attack, both lose 1k damage (the condition build has a mental advantage here, because you only see ~100DPS less (and the initial 200 direct damage), but both are effected the same way if they miss their attacks).

The “bad gameplay” of bunkering is needed, because the condition build needs longer to end his fight… but psst, there is a trick against condition builds, burst them down, before they can build up their pressure.

oZii.2864:

Really I can’t think at this time any weapon in the entire game that would kill faster as condition damage then as power is there even one?

Quite possibly necro scepter, because the power coefficients on those skills are absolute trash. That’s the only one where it might be the case, though.

look at ferocity change, look at all new sigils and runes… it is obvious there is strong favoritism toward condition dmg in pvp/wvw

Cynz.9437:

look at ferocity change, look at all new sigils and runes… it is obvious there is strong favoritism toward condition dmg in pvp/wvw

The ferocity change is geared toward PvE and conditions suck in PvE. The new runes are more conditions based I’ll agree with that. Tormenting, Perplexity, antitoxin and sunless vs exuberance and the rune that is like melandru with aegis on signet use. Though prior to you had altruism and mad king runes introduced.

So it would be 4 condi runes added and 1 power rune, 3 other runes though they are direct damage rune more so then condi as even warriors run melandru on direct damage builds.

Total in game you have:

13 condition damage runes

Direct damage runes:

17 Power based runes

5 precision based runes

3 critical damage runes

2 other runes divinity and travler so lets call that direct damage
Rune of infiltration.

Runes largely favor direct damage purely based on how many ingame there is and whats been added since launch. Don’t feel like looking at sigils. This is just being technical on the classifications though as direct damage builds will pick up things like melandru rune of earth etc etc etc. Condi builds rarely very rarely will run a rune that isn’t condi based.

So when the new rune and sigil changes comes that will show what? A favoritism toward direct damage builds? Since they will have worked on more direct damage runes then condition runes simply because there are more direct damage runes so direct damage runes used up more of their balancing time.

Cynz.9437:

look at ferocity change, look at all new sigils and runes… it is obvious there is strong favoritism toward condition dmg in pvp/wvw

Ferocity change will result in no change at all in sPvP. The amulets there were chosen as the balance point, so the crit damage you can get in PvP will remain identical.

Sorry for the double-post, but oZii, here’s some info for you.

Okay, Necro Scepter with no traits or armor. No sigils, only auto-attacking. Time to kill Heavy Training Golem.

Berserker amulet: 33.16 seconds
Rabid amulet: 31.93 seconds
None: 53.17 seconds

Interestingly, even with the Berserker amulet, about half of the damage dealt was still from the 0 condition damage/duration bleeds. I knew Necro Scepter scaled poorly with power, but I didn’t expect it to be that poorly.

Now, using other skills (still only using skills 1-3, though, rotation being Grasping Dead, 3 autos, then Feast of Corruption for maximum damage on Feast)
Berserker: 31.52 seconds
Rabid: 30.70 seconds
None: ~48 seconds (stopwatch locked up)

So, there is at least one weapon that kills heavy armor faster with conditions than power in a scientific test.

Now, on medium, I repeated the tests:

Autos only
Berserker: 25.33 seconds
Rabid: 26.10 seconds

All scepter skills:
Berserker: 22.89 seconds
Rabid: 24.27 seconds

So, somewhere between the Heavy armor golem and the Medium armor golem, Zerker becomes optimal damage output even for necro scepter and its horrendous power scaling.

Interesting test thanks for taking the time. This might just be the one weapon that can make the claim to kill faster as condi over power and then it isn’t always the case against medium and I’m sure light armor.

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

was the power build a soldier amulet? didnt see evidence in video

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/b/509047491

thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers

was thinkin about this some more… couple questions about the condi vid:

• no fear mark? it seems like huge 1080 ticks would be better burst than the last couple autos you did.
• ds 5? same thing, 1 cast for equivalent of 4.5 bleed stacks…. the golem is moving while feared. is 2.25 bleeds while immob’d better than 1 autoattack?
• more a comment but.. you were pretty unlucky on crits and didnt get burn on till like the last couple secs. so you were still ramping up damage by the time the golem died. not too sure how youd go about accounting for that, except to look for a bigger hp sack.

Just for the heck of it, I tested with no amulet, too. I edited that in above.

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

was the power build a soldier amulet? didnt see evidence in video

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/b/509047491

thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers

was thinkin about this some more… couple questions about the condi vid:

• no fear mark? it seems like huge 1080 ticks would be better burst than the last couple autos you did.
• ds 5? same thing, 1 cast for equivalent of 4.5 bleed stacks…. the golem is moving while feared. is 2.25 bleeds while immob’d better than 1 autoattack?
• more a comment but.. you were pretty unlucky on crits and didnt get burn on till like the last couple secs. so you were still ramping up damage by the time the golem died. not too sure how youd go about accounting for that, except to look for a bigger hp sack.

OK, no problem. When I get a chance I will also try to add torment and another fear in the mix to see how much faster it will be. But keep in mind, that with be an extra 2 skills used making it a total of 9 compared to the 4 my power build used.

Best way to get balance on conti dmg is to let the conti dmg get reduced by toughness, and let conti dmg do more dmg cos of it, that way conti dmg will work the same way as direct dmg, exept conti will be damge over time and direct dmg will be burst., also that wil fix the build that conti gets over pure burst dmg, is thay get more toughness in thayr builds, balance all around ^^.
So, same dmg except dmg over time and survivor vs burst and less survivor, cos conti dealers need to survive to pull thayr combo off, while power build can just burst. And maybe remove conti clear or nerf them(even let it work that if u kill the conti dealer all of the conti he dealt are removed from u) and let protection and vulnerability effect conti as well

Toughness gives you armor. Armor is intended to ward off direct damage. In other words, the damage you take from direct hits is reduced. But conditions are intended to get around this armor. That is the purpose of conditions, to melt armored foes. If they didn’t, you would have no way to counter high armor builds. Unlike GW1, GW2 does not have a cracked armor condition. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Cracked_armor
(GW2 does have vulnerability, but it works differently)

Vitality is intended to give you lots of hitpoints. It is an effective counter against condition damage. The more hitpoints you have, the longer you can hold out against conditions. But you were never meant to last long when being struck by conditions. You either remove them, or kill the source of the conditions, before he kills you. If you do not invest anything in vitality, no amount of armor in the world will protect you from all the condition damage that’s coming your way….

And that is how it should be. If you changed it, you would break one of the few coherent game design rules in the game’s combat system.

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

was the power build a soldier amulet? didnt see evidence in video

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/b/509047491

thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers

was thinkin about this some more… couple questions about the condi vid:

• no fear mark? it seems like huge 1080 ticks would be better burst than the last couple autos you did.
• ds 5? same thing, 1 cast for equivalent of 4.5 bleed stacks…. the golem is moving while feared. is 2.25 bleeds while immob’d better than 1 autoattack?
• more a comment but.. you were pretty unlucky on crits and didnt get burn on till like the last couple secs. so you were still ramping up damage by the time the golem died. not too sure how youd go about accounting for that, except to look for a bigger hp sack.

OK, no problem. When I get a chance I will also try to add torment and another fear in the mix to see how much faster it will be. But keep in mind, that with be an extra 2 skills used making it a total of 9 compared to the 4 my power build used.

i like you, youre interested in optimal play
its good for science
good luck

Ankaran.1029:

Best way to get balance on conti dmg is to let the conti dmg get reduced by toughness, and let conti dmg do more dmg cos of it, that way conti dmg will work the same way as direct dmg, exept conti will be damge over time and direct dmg will be burst., also that wil fix the build that conti gets over pure burst dmg, is thay get more toughness in thayr builds, balance all around ^^.
So, same dmg except dmg over time and survivor vs burst and less survivor, cos conti dealers need to survive to pull thayr combo off, while power build can just burst. And maybe remove conti clear or nerf them(even let it work that if u kill the conti dealer all of the conti he dealt are removed from u) and let protection and vulnerability effect conti as well

No, its the best way to make tanks overpowered.

Conditions are fine in general. There are some cheap builds out there, that we can discuss or some skills. Maybe the toughness on condi gear that makes them more tanki, but condition damage is not the problem.

Condition damage ignoring armor is needed to counter tank builds. If you let armor effect condi dmg, then everyone will cry that tanks are op and needs a nerf. In the end, everyone will run with zerker gear, because its the only viable (we actually do so in PvE, but thats another story).

The trouble is NOT the damage in a condition damage build (it should be higher because it is over time and cleansable), but the defense a condition caster can have because they have so many “left over” points after achieving maximum damage in the skill lines.

Couple of fixes could help:

1. Conditions from a caster should cease upon the downing of the caster.

2. Condition duration should be lowered across the board. In return, the amount of condition duration you get from putting points in the condition duration skill line should be increased. For example, you could reduce condition duration by 30% across the board. You could then have each skill pt provide 2% condition duration vs 1%. If you went glass cannon, you would do enough damage to be able to go glass cannon. But, you would need 15 pts in the line just to “break even”. That would reduce the bunkering effect.

1. You wont get healed for a part of the damage a direct damage build dealt to you, after it got killed. Adding this to condition damage would be unfair.

2. condition duration is capped by 100% so you also have to increase zhis cap or you will run much faster into this cap.

Btw. direct damage builds deal more damage then condition builds even when both go tanky.

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

was the power build a soldier amulet? didnt see evidence in video

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/b/509047491

thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers

was thinkin about this some more… couple questions about the condi vid:

• no fear mark? it seems like huge 1080 ticks would be better burst than the last couple autos you did.
• ds 5? same thing, 1 cast for equivalent of 4.5 bleed stacks…. the golem is moving while feared. is 2.25 bleeds while immob’d better than 1 autoattack?
• more a comment but.. you were pretty unlucky on crits and didnt get burn on till like the last couple secs. so you were still ramping up damage by the time the golem died. not too sure how youd go about accounting for that, except to look for a bigger hp sack.

OK, no problem. When I get a chance I will also try to add torment and another fear in the mix to see how much faster it will be. But keep in mind, that with be an extra 2 skills used making it a total of 9 compared to the 4 my power build used.

i like you, youre interested in optimal play
its good for science
good luck

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738
it was a little faster around 9s kill

Maybe, damage is such a hard thing to dissect without all the battle logs and data.

Upon reflection, it seems conditions are too powerful in small fights and too weak in larger ones.

The issue tends to be that in a small fight I can wear you down with conditions (fine) but have more defense because of how the points get allocated.

In large fights, my conditions don’t stack like direct damage does (I lose output once the target is “lit up”) and cleansing which is balanced for small fights becomes silly.

I have no idea how you would fix this without breaking 5 more things along the way.

Conditions are not too powerful. only time conditions are good is when there is little condi removal.
it kills slower than a power tanky build, you need to use most of your skills to attain that kind of damage while a power build will most of the time spam 11111 with 2-3 other skills to out dps conditions.

Anecdotal evidence is not that great for proving a point, but I have two different gear sets for my necro. Dire and Knights (I don’t like being squishy).

Here are the two gear sets and trait setups I use:
Knights: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQRAnd4Yjc0UTbLNW2whbCB6RuULOTUhjh6x64OfIA-zAEBoLAINwYNgoNQEEgk0w0FAEGQJQFRjtEMaVRhtcKIKZoqaAqbY6XKyAA-e
Dire: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQNArYWjc00dbNNW2webiASx7xV0DiFskRpocpD-zwCBYhAoMQINg0CgUFQk3AZSFRjtGsIasKZJVdDTHTQGA-e

It’s apparent I put more effort into my condition damage set, as I have an ascended weapon, plus appropriate ascended amulet, back-piece, and trinket. Yet, I do nearly double the DPS with my power set. My DPS with conditions is roughly 1k, but my Knight’s build (which is less focused on the offense, stat-wise) is usually running 2-4k DPS.

Similar levels of durability, yet one deals a lot more damage.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Anecdotal evidence is not that great for proving a point, but I have two different gear sets for my necro. Dire and Knights (I don’t like being squishy).

Here are the two gear sets and trait setups I use:
Knights: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQRAnd4Yjc0UTbLNW2whbCB6RuULOTUhjh6x64OfIA-zAEBoLAINwYNgoNQEEgk0w0FAEGQJQFRjtEMaVRhtcKIKZoqaAqbY6XKyAA-e
Dire: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQNArYWjc00dbNNW2webiASx7xV0DiFskRpocpD-zwCBYhAoMQINg0CgUFQk3AZSFRjtGsIasKZJVdDTHTQGA-e

It’s apparent I put more effort into my condition damage set, as I have an ascended weapon, plus appropriate ascended amulet, back-piece, and trinket. Yet, I do nearly double the DPS with my power set. My DPS with conditions is roughly 1k, but my Knight’s build (which is less focused on the offense, stat-wise) is usually running 2-4k DPS.

Similar levels of durability, yet one deals a lot more damage.

Your subjective DPS doesn’t fly.

Your condis may on average tick for 1k, but that’s 1k always.. Also you’re ignoring what your actual damage ticks for.

I’m going to guess they tick roughly evenly.

Power builds can’t hit their DPS every second, which makes your DPS lower than you think. Certainly not 2-4k per second.

Think about it. Do you hit people for 40k health, down each person within 10 seconds with a power build? No.

Do you usually hit people for 20-30k health in 20 seconds with conditions, downing them? Yes.

Mbelch.9028:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Anecdotal evidence is not that great for proving a point, but I have two different gear sets for my necro. Dire and Knights (I don’t like being squishy).

Here are the two gear sets and trait setups I use:
Knights: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQRAnd4Yjc0UTbLNW2whbCB6RuULOTUhjh6x64OfIA-zAEBoLAINwYNgoNQEEgk0w0FAEGQJQFRjtEMaVRhtcKIKZoqaAqbY6XKyAA-e
Dire: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQNArYWjc00dbNNW2webiASx7xV0DiFskRpocpD-zwCBYhAoMQINg0CgUFQk3AZSFRjtGsIasKZJVdDTHTQGA-e

It’s apparent I put more effort into my condition damage set, as I have an ascended weapon, plus appropriate ascended amulet, back-piece, and trinket. Yet, I do nearly double the DPS with my power set. My DPS with conditions is roughly 1k, but my Knight’s build (which is less focused on the offense, stat-wise) is usually running 2-4k DPS.

Similar levels of durability, yet one deals a lot more damage.

Your subjective DPS doesn’t fly.

Your condis may on average tick for 1k, but that’s 1k always.. Also you’re ignoring what your actual damage ticks for.

I’m going to guess they tick roughly evenly.

Power builds can’t hit their DPS every second, which makes your DPS lower than you think. Certainly not 2-4k per second.

Think about it. Do you hit people for 40k health, down each person within 10 seconds with a power build? No.

Do you usually hit people for 20-30k health in 20 seconds with conditions, downing them? Yes.

You just don’t get it, do you?

Yes, I am ignoring the direct damage on my skills on the condition build, because they cap out at 300 damage. Not 3k, 300. At best, I’m looking at 1600 DPS, even factoring in direct damage.

Condition builds can’t hit their DPS every second either. When they have to dodge, they lose DPS. Their attacks get blocked/blinded/dodged/invulnerabilitied, they lose DPS. Their conditions get cleansed, they lose DPS. In fact, they lose DPS in all of the ways power builds do, and then some. Yes, they have damage ticking, but it is damage they already dealt.

Then you screw things up with your attempts at math as well. 40k in 10 seconds is equal to 20k in 20 seconds now? No, not even close. If I take down a 20k health target in 20 seconds (which is reasonable) on my condition build, I can take down the same target in 10 seconds with my power build, assuming their armor isn’t massive. If they dodge/block, both kill times get extended by the same duration.

The problems in the Stats ya see. A Power use and a Condi user walk up to each other. The Condi user says hes going to pick vitality as a sub stat so he’ll survive longer. The Power user says fine and does the same. The Condi user says he’ll also grab toughness to reduce the other guys damage. The Power user says fine and does the same. The Condi user laughs as hes just won.

A power user and a Condi user go picking their skills. The Condi user grabs some heals to stay alive longer. The Power user does the same. The Condi user laughs as hes just won

A Condi user and a Power user are deciding what traits to get. The Condi user grabs some traits to proc his conditions more. The power user in rebuttal grabs some traits to help him remove more conditions….you see where Im going with this right?

Silhouette.5631:

The problems in the Stats ya see. A Power use and a Condi user walk up to each other. The Condi user says hes going to pick vitality as a sub stat so he’ll survive longer. The Power user says fine and does the same. The Condi user says he’ll also grab toughness to reduce the other guys damage. The Power user says fine and does the same. The Condi user laughs as hes just won.

A power user and a Condi user go picking their skills. The Condi user grabs some heals to stay alive longer. The Power user does the same. The Condi user laughs as hes just won

A Condi user and a Power user are deciding what traits to get. The Condi user grabs some traits to proc his conditions more. The power user in rebuttal grabs some traits to help him remove more conditions….you see where Im going with this right?

Not really, since you’re working off of the faulty premise that conditions do more damage with one stat than power builds do. I’d do Heart of the Mists tests to prove it to you, but Dire amulets aren’t available there, so it’s always two offensive stats for a condition amulet minimum. There is no amulet with Power prioritized and Precision secondary that doesn’t have a third damage stat (condition damage or crit damage), so that is also out.

As for condition cleanses being less frequent than conditions…duh? Any offense must be greater than its respective defense for a game focused around interaction. If you could cleanse every single condition that got put on you, then what would be the point of even attempting to put them on you in the first place?

Silhouette.5631:

The problems in the Stats ya see. A Power use and a Condi user walk up to each other. The Condi user says hes going to pick vitality as a sub stat so he’ll survive longer. The Power user says fine and does the same. The Condi user says he’ll also grab toughness to reduce the other guys damage. The Power user says fine and does the same. The Condi user laughs as hes just won.

A power user and a Condi user go picking their skills. The Condi user grabs some heals to stay alive longer. The Power user does the same. The Condi user laughs as hes just won

A Condi user and a Power user are deciding what traits to get. The Condi user grabs some traits to proc his conditions more. The power user in rebuttal grabs some traits to help him remove more conditions….you see where Im going with this right?

This is problem people think going defensive is the solution to fighting a conditon build when that is trying to play the same game as them.

Direct damage is front loaded damage conditions are backloaded. If you start building to deal with backloaded damage you also start moving your damage and spreading it out.

Direct Damage guy walks up to another Direct damage guy. Lets call them A and B.

A takes all the damage traits that he can lets say something like 30/30/10/0/0

B takes the same trait lines 30/30/10/0/0 but takes all the defensive stuff.

Both using full zerker

A’s best defense is his offense B still has good offense but all defensive traits he can’t out dps A no matter how much he tried.

The thief running 30/30/10 is a greater threat to the necro then the one running 10/30/30. The 7-8k backstabs are a greater threat then the 5-6k the first built to blow stuff up the second built safe to give it the best chance to fight everything.
The 6k iZerker from the mesmer is much more of a threat then the 4k.

Using your example the Direct damage guy would be better off grabbing some decent vitality to not get one shotted by a thief and get some offense in his build instead of what it sounds like going soldiers.

Any class can essentially stalemate any condition build out there if they take their best condition management traits pack on healing power. There is not much the condition build can do. The full glass direct damage build on the other hand can still kill the bunker.

If you haven’t tried it take whatever your main is and build it as bunker as you can to deal with conditions grab traits a sprinkle of vitality and pack on the healing power. Then take that same build and try to build it to handle direct damage. You will be able to not die against the condition build but direct damage glass can still kill you. There is nothing the condition build can do to overcome your defensive setup but the glass can.

I have done this with 5 of my 7 classes and you can build a Thief, Mesmer, Warrior, Elementalist, Guardian, to make conditions laughable. Those same builds can still get killed though by burst/glass direct damage.

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

insanemaniac.2456:

Brando.1374:

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

was the power build a soldier amulet? didnt see evidence in video

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/b/509047491

thats the whole 6m recording I did.
condi rabid
power zerkers

was thinkin about this some more… couple questions about the condi vid:

• no fear mark? it seems like huge 1080 ticks would be better burst than the last couple autos you did.
• ds 5? same thing, 1 cast for equivalent of 4.5 bleed stacks…. the golem is moving while feared. is 2.25 bleeds while immob’d better than 1 autoattack?
• more a comment but.. you were pretty unlucky on crits and didnt get burn on till like the last couple secs. so you were still ramping up damage by the time the golem died. not too sure how youd go about accounting for that, except to look for a bigger hp sack.

OK, no problem. When I get a chance I will also try to add torment and another fear in the mix to see how much faster it will be. But keep in mind, that with be an extra 2 skills used making it a total of 9 compared to the 4 my power build used.

i like you, youre interested in optimal play
its good for science
good luck

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3859738
it was a little faster around 9s kill

thanks
reminded me much more strongly of those few times ive run into a really sharp necro in wvw