Guild Wars 2

People might forget that Fear is a condition, while knockbacks/knockdowns are not. Warrior’s zerk stance will outrule any condi necro, not to mention turret engi’s in a 1vs1. And other classes have a way better stability uptime than the necro. Boonstrip from focus #5 is rarely used as a terror necro which means you only have corrupt boon and MAYBE the grandmaster dark path trait to remove it. Terror necro’s need to sacrifice a lot as well but the whiners won’t see that.

Yes, I believe the balance is that there’s a CC, which can be negated with stun breaks and stability, and there’s conditions, which can be cleansed and [in some circumstances] completely negated, then there is fear, which is especially strong but is given the weaknesses of both CC and condition.
In this sense, there opens up numerous more ways to breaks out of it or avoid it, and thus making its strength allowable. Now, there are necros who build to have more of it, and make it powerful? Of course, that’s one of the points to the GW2 Trinity: Control. They build to control, and control they do.
And if we were to compare it to warrior hammer… well, I could go into the numerous differences between the classes, including but not limited to the range of the long bow, burst capability of adrenaline, CD, natural damage from stunning attacks, yadda yadda. But simply put, they’re different classes and they have different factors involved in their balancing. If we were to balance so that all classes were given the same everything… well, there’d only be one class.

it would help power builds if 75% of the best traits werent in one traitline (soul reaping), and if condi builds had something else besides relying on broken passives (aka active defense)

GoogleBrandon.5073:

True, this game is mostly designed to not watch the UI, but the characters instead… focussing on both, especially if you are man (multitasking :P ) is kinda tough sometimes…

It could be a visual tell as well though, like a subtle Aura or a flying orb around the character like you had in GW1 with some skills (I might record some of that to let people know what I mean) – this will once more keep the focus on the opponent, and not on the UI

This would be the most elegant solution to Reaper’s Protection. An aura-like visual of skulls circling the necro when the trait is active.

no don t nerf terror and deffinitly don t remove the second health bar. Worst idea I’ve seen on the forums (and I saw alot)

Jayce.5632:

This would be the most elegant solution to Reaper’s Protection. An aura-like visual of skulls circling the necro when the trait is active.

Yea, I did not get around recording footage, but it would be a huge improvement… After all, I do enjoy the way this combat is setup (watching animations rather than skillbars), so if you can implement passives from traits and sigils within animations that are not huge pink and green fields, it would be again, a huge improvement

Just make disables not stack or overwrite and problem solved.

warherox.7943:

Just make disables not stack or overwrite and problem solved.

Fear isn’t disabling target.

Jayce.5632:

This would be the most elegant solution to Reaper’s Protection. An aura-like visual of skulls circling the necro when the trait is active.

It’s not a solution at all. It’s just adding a sign that says “if you CC me, you’re screwed”.

Arguably Reaper’s Protection is fine by itself, since all it does is negate the CC. But Master of Terror makes it longer than the CC it’s negating and Terror makes it deal significant damage. Changing the effect on Reaper’s Protection, as opposed to Terror or Master of Terror, is the best way to address this powerful combination of traits.

Exedore.6320:

Jayce.5632:

This would be the most elegant solution to Reaper’s Protection. An aura-like visual of skulls circling the necro when the trait is active.

It’s not a solution at all. It’s just adding a sign that says “if you CC me, you’re screwed”.

Arguably Reaper’s Protection is fine by itself, since all it does is negate the CC. But Master of Terror makes it longer than the CC it’s negating and Terror makes it deal significant damage. Changing the effect on Reaper’s Protection, as opposed to Terror or Master of Terror, is the best way to address this powerful combination of traits.

Or, you could let the powerful combination of traits be powerful. Synergy is not something to avoid in games with character builds. Recall that to even get this combination of traits, it uses 12 of your 14 trait points and all Master tier traits in your build. Even in the most efficient circumstances, it only comes up 1/minute and still has plenty of counterplay options (especially since every single stunbreak in the game save Shielded Mind has a shorter cooldown).

Yes, when Reaper’s Protection procs, you are most likely feared for longer than the CC you hit the necro with. However, the necro still doesn’t have much time to capitalize on the Fear, being CC’d himself. If he decides to pop a stunbreaker, now he is completely without defense to CC for the next 32 seconds minimum. Unless he’s carrying a second stunbreaker or you proc Last Gasp while he’s CC’d.

Exedore.6320:

Jayce.5632:

This would be the most elegant solution to Reaper’s Protection. An aura-like visual of skulls circling the necro when the trait is active.

It’s not a solution at all. It’s just adding a sign that says “if you CC me, you’re screwed”.

Arguably Reaper’s Protection is fine by itself, since all it does is negate the CC. But Master of Terror makes it longer than the CC it’s negating and Terror makes it deal significant damage. Changing the effect on Reaper’s Protection, as opposed to Terror or Master of Terror, is the best way to address this powerful combination of traits.

It’s the best solution possible besides nerfing the trait to adept status of reworking it entirely. That animation says, if you’re going to CC the necro, have stability or a stunbreak ready, or don’t just spam your skills because “LOL FOCUS THE NECRO”

While I get that this is a powerful passive, it’s also the best example of necro traits actually having synergy.

How is trading Terror/fear for more bunker/sustain good for the class?

Terror isn’t holding back the class. Not having any other viable specs of similar power/different role options (except Well builds for tagging in WvW/PvE which isn’t part of the discussion) is what is holding back the class. There are so many garbage traits that makes choosing between them all is a non-issue.

It’s very similar to Guardian staleness but that’s for another class thread.

Artaz.3819:

How is trading Terror/fear for more bunker/sustain good for the class?

Terror isn’t holding back the class. Not having any other viable specs of similar power/different role options (except Well builds for tagging in WvW/PvE which isn’t part of the discussion) is what is holding back the class. There are so many garbage traits that makes choosing between them all is a non-issue.

It’s very similar to Guardian staleness but that’s for another class thread.

I think OP’s point is that since necros have access to this trait, the spec and class has to be balanced around it existing. The same way that siphons are balanced around bloodthirst or on-enter DS traits are balanced around near to death.

Roe.3679:

Artaz.3819:

How is trading Terror/fear for more bunker/sustain good for the class?

Terror isn’t holding back the class. Not having any other viable specs of similar power/different role options (except Well builds for tagging in WvW/PvE which isn’t part of the discussion) is what is holding back the class. There are so many garbage traits that makes choosing between them all is a non-issue.

It’s very similar to Guardian staleness but that’s for another class thread.

I think OP’s point is that since necros have access to this trait, the spec and class has to be balanced around it existing. The same way that siphons are balanced around bloodthirst or on-enter DS traits are balanced around near to death.

To be fair, I wouldn’t call siphons “balanced” around Bloodthirst. Siphons are balanced so that they don’t become strong in a hypothetical Xv5 scenario where only one of the 5 is hitting the Necro, but all of them are standing in melee range of the necro without dodging, blocking, or blinding for up to 15 seconds at a time.

Yes, Terror must be taken into consideration but it won ‘t be used on a large number of builds. It’s basically condition damage only that Terror has to be balanced around simply because for all other builds, there are better options to take. Any build with 3 or fewer points in Curses is automatically exempt from needing to have Terror be taken into consideration, for example. This includes most Power builds, MM, and even bunker builds that do go 4 in Curses because they’re grabbing either Spectral Attunement or Banshee’s Wail.

Well, I got around to finally record something when I was just casually strolling about:

This is the visual for Protective Spirit – if you got a visual tell like this for Reaper’s Protection, or any other passive really, it would really be helpfull

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Well, I got around to finally record something when I was just casually strolling about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wwxMDloDvg

This is the visual for Protective Spirit – if you got a visual tell like this for Reaper’s Protection, or any other passive really, it would really be helpfull

Actually, that’s the visual for any Monk enchantment. The swirling white stuff is any enchantment at all and the floating symbol changes with profession.

Hexes had a similar, black visual.

Necro fear is so op that every top PvP team got at least 2 or 3 of them right

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Actually, that’s the visual for any Monk enchantment. The swirling white stuff is any enchantment at all and the floating symbol changes with profession.

Hexes had a similar, black visual.

I did say it was O.o

GoogleBrandon.5073:

This is the visual for Protective Spirit

I just meant it like, if passive traits/runes worked this way with a visual tell, it would make combat a lot more enjoyable as the “randomness” factor is gone without hard shaving of the tools…

GoogleBrandon.5073:

I just meant it like, if passive traits/runes worked this way with a visual tell, it would make combat a lot more enjoyable as the “randomness” factor is gone without hard shaving of the tools…

I don’t want people to know my rune setup and my trait setup.

Tao.5096:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

I just meant it like, if passive traits/runes worked this way with a visual tell, it would make combat a lot more enjoyable as the “randomness” factor is gone without hard shaving of the tools…

I don’t want people to know my rune setup and my trait setup.

…

That is helpfull for the discussion…

What is your idea then if you do not want a visual tell?

My idea is to leave it as it is now.

We dont’ need shiny fancy stuff that tell you your opponent’s current rune and trait setup or even utility and elite setup.

Tao.5096:

My idea is to leave it as it is now.

We dont’ need shiny fancy stuff that tell you your opponent’s current rune and trait setup or even utility and elite setup.

Your idea is to leave all the passives, be it traits or runes, to have no tell whatsoever and just let the RNG Gods do their work…

Yea… I am not too happy about that answer as you might figure, so let me rephrase;

If you had to rework passives in a way, how would you do it?

No.

Figure it out by using your brain, knowledge of other classes and by fighting your opponent.

It’ll make it possible to distinguish squishiest players in group by looking at them and aim for them, instead of learning their abilities during match.

PvP is supposed to be a challange, where you show your knowledge of the game, you class and your opponent’s class.

If your idea would succeed, it’ll become a stupid way of full group jumping on squishiest group member and killing them one by one.
The first class to complain about it will be Mesmer.
because others can easily distinguish real ones from clones.

Next it’ll be something like:
- oooh, this trait is on cd, so I can do this and that w/o worrying that he’ll counter it.

I’m sorry, but that kind of thing has no problem making it into full target system games like Aion and alike.
In semi-aim semi target system like gw2 has, it’s going to cripple pvp.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Neptune.2570:

Kahrgan.7401:

a t s e.9614:

Tao.5096:

Nerf Warrior’s hammer first, then let’s talk about Terror.

Hammer has animations, necro’s fears do not….

much passive fear such wow so skill

Did you just imply that hammer takes skill?

hhmmffkk… Hmmmffkk.. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What’s even more hilarious is that warriors have so many passives I can actually watch youtube while in a pvp match with my warrior.

He’s not talking about skill. I can evade a warriors hammer. I can’t evade 5 and a half seconds of fear from nightmare runes/reapers protection as soon as I attack.
IMO the rest of the necro fears are fine. It’s those two that are a problem.

Sooo, stop leading off with a CC or be prepared to stunbreak instead? If you get feared for that long, then that’s 3 of a necro’s fears blown, two of which are on 60+ second cooldowns.

As it stands, I don’t think anything relating to Fear actually needs a change right now. None of them are particularly hard to deal with, and Reaper’s Protection is basically the necro’s only defense against CC. Nightmare Runes can be used by any profession, but you don’t see that happen. Ever stopped to consider that maybe the runes aren’t actually problematic? People just view them as such on necros because the necro gets a bit more milage out of them.

Given how easy it is to proc both of them simultaneously while ignoring their effects (pop Stability before CCing, CC from long range, Zerker stance, stunbreak right after CC, instant cleanse right after CC), I really don’t see an issue. Heck, opposing necros can be even meaner and launch a Deathly Swarm right before proccing them, transferring the long fear straight to the defending necro.

@Tao: No it isn’t. Reaper’s Protection has never feared the necro. That’s some other effect (Fear proccing it or Mirrored Anguish)

That’s only the two fears off reapers protection and nightmare runes, traited as all terrormancers do for the extra fear duration. After that the necro still has all it’s active fears off cooldown.
That’s my problem with it though, not all classes can just liberally stunbreak like that. These classes need a visual tell on nightmare runes/reapers protection.
An aura perhaps? Or after the hit a quick 1/4 second cast is made by the necro (Similar to how Mesmer scepter/sword blocks work) for the effect, so it can at least be dodged.

You don’t need a stunbreak to stop fear, a condi cleanse also works. Other classes also have stability which completely negates fear so necros have almost 0 stab but they have one trait that helps against being the ping pong balls we are and everyone cries

Neptune.2570:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Neptune.2570:

Kahrgan.7401:

a t s e.9614:

Tao.5096:

Nerf Warrior’s hammer first, then let’s talk about Terror.

Hammer has animations, necro’s fears do not….

much passive fear such wow so skill

Did you just imply that hammer takes skill?

hhmmffkk… Hmmmffkk.. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

What’s even more hilarious is that warriors have so many passives I can actually watch youtube while in a pvp match with my warrior.

He’s not talking about skill. I can evade a warriors hammer. I can’t evade 5 and a half seconds of fear from nightmare runes/reapers protection as soon as I attack.
IMO the rest of the necro fears are fine. It’s those two that are a problem.

Sooo, stop leading off with a CC or be prepared to stunbreak instead? If you get feared for that long, then that’s 3 of a necro’s fears blown, two of which are on 60+ second cooldowns.

As it stands, I don’t think anything relating to Fear actually needs a change right now. None of them are particularly hard to deal with, and Reaper’s Protection is basically the necro’s only defense against CC. Nightmare Runes can be used by any profession, but you don’t see that happen. Ever stopped to consider that maybe the runes aren’t actually problematic? People just view them as such on necros because the necro gets a bit more milage out of them.

Given how easy it is to proc both of them simultaneously while ignoring their effects (pop Stability before CCing, CC from long range, Zerker stance, stunbreak right after CC, instant cleanse right after CC), I really don’t see an issue. Heck, opposing necros can be even meaner and launch a Deathly Swarm right before proccing them, transferring the long fear straight to the defending necro.

@Tao: No it isn’t. Reaper’s Protection has never feared the necro. That’s some other effect (Fear proccing it or Mirrored Anguish)

That’s only the two fears off reapers protection and nightmare runes, traited as all terrormancers do for the extra fear duration. After that the necro still has all it’s active fears off cooldown.
That’s my problem with it though, not all classes can just liberally stunbreak like that. These classes need a visual tell on nightmare runes/reapers protection.
An aura perhaps? Or after the hit a quick 1/4 second cast is made by the necro (Similar to how Mesmer scepter/sword blocks work) for the effect, so it can at least be dodged.

Master of Terror turns Nightmare runes into a 3.3 second Fear and both combined turn Reaper’s Protection into another 3.3 second Fear. Since you said 5.5 seconds, that threw me off as that would be 2 seconds (Reaper’s Protection), 2 seconds (Nightmare Runes), and 1.5 seconds (Doom) not including Nightmare Rune’s bonus. A mistake of communication.

If you can’t (or in your case, don’t want to) stunbreak, then disengage. The Necro won’t kill you in that time and both of those passive fears are now down for the next minute at least. A short disengage is better than dying. Regardless, there is literally no better time to stunbreak versus a necro than when both of his longest duration fears just got used. Alternatively, pop Stability before proccing them and laugh as the necro’s strongest fears get blown to no effect.

After one fight, you should not be surprised by those procs. You know what he’s running for traits and runes, so unless you’re an idiot, you know what’s going to happen if you open up with CC.

Stop belly aching and deal with it. Every single last profession has passives, and no body complains when they have them on ht profession they are playing at the time. They all simply and very selfishly demand that they remove it from the other guy.

reapers protections procs on an ele with tempest defense, they can stun you right back with shocking aura.

reapers protection procs on a mesmer with mirrored anguish, you both get feared.

If this procs on a warrior with Last Stand, they get a free 8s stability.

With all of those passives, on other skills, some of those players are clearly irrationally bias to complain about a passive defense skill on the necro. Engineers IP anyone?

There are well over 40 skills in the game that proc “on crit”. Not to mention those that are a simple chance on hit. Multiple other defensive procs.

What makes this one so special to hypocritically single it out? It is literally hard countered wit stability as well.

Neptune.2570:

Or after the hit a quick 1/4 second cast is made by the necro (Similar to how Mesmer scepter/sword blocks work) for the effect, so it can at least be dodged.

How can you do a cast when you are cc’ed(reaper’s protection)? Also that would ruin the runes of nightmare because it does more harm then good since you are interrupting yourself.

Ezeriel.9574:

I’m sticking with my argument that the class is balanced around Terror.

If you mean balanced around outlying build in the best of conditions, I agree.

The developers seem bent on tuning for dps in perfect conditions leaving the profession hollow.

Terror was the best mechanic that they ever came up with for necros: the problem is with its long duration passive procs!

Terror is fine as it is. No need to screw the necro condi builds even more.
As for fear in general, I don’t think a necromancer fully specced for long fears has much more hard CC potential than a hammer warrior or an engineer.

Hm, maybe an icon for Reaper’s Protection wouldn’t be too bad? I think Nightmare Rune is fine because it’s equipment and thus if we gave it a tell it would require us to give each piece of equipment a tell. But if, RP had an icon like, let’s say, Opening Strike, it would require some attention to detail but it isn’t impossible to tell what’s coming.

coglin.1867:

If this procs on a warrior with Last Stand, they get a free 8s stability.

The difference is defensive procs should not need to have a tell because it’s well, defensive… Engineer’s Transmute would be another example of automatic defensive not requiring a tell.

However, what’s being brought up is that a passive offensive attack which Fear is when Terror is traited should have a tell. IMO, I also think Retaliation needs to have a stronger visual effect as well (besides an icon) on the target (something like white brackets ( ) around the target).

Roe.3679:

Artaz.3819:

How is trading Terror/fear for more bunker/sustain good for the class?

Terror isn’t holding back the class. Not having any other viable specs of similar power/different role options (except Well builds for tagging in WvW/PvE which isn’t part of the discussion) is what is holding back the class. There are so many garbage traits that makes choosing between them all is a non-issue.

It’s very similar to Guardian staleness but that’s for another class thread.

I think OP’s point is that since necros have access to this trait, the spec and class has to be balanced around it existing. The same way that siphons are balanced around bloodthirst or on-enter DS traits are balanced around near to death.

I understand I just don’t agree that balancing around Terror is the best method to help Necros and build variety. It needs to be a more holistic approach since so much seems useless in builds (i.e. low synergy, low impact or both). Terror is one of the few traits to add both high level of synergy (with multiple fears) and does enhance damage = high impact on gameplay.