Guild Wars 2

So I was talking to a few people about the current way conditions are handled and the fact that they can be reapplied so quickly after a powerful cleanse.

I noticed it mostly after playing my meditation Guard for awhile in WvW, and even after using my full clear (Contemplation of Purity) while fighting an engy i had everything i cleared right back on me within a few seconds.

I know this is also an issue for other classes in other situations and i thought of a pretty cool idea to help buffer the defensive capabilities of some classes against condi spam.

I think that Utility skills that remove condition should have an added passive: Immunity to the cleansed condition for the next 2 secs.

So for example: Guardian has bleeding, and poison on him, he uses Smite Condition, Bleeding is removed and for the next 2 seconds BLEEDING can not be applied again.

This of course will also have to have an ICD to prevent abuse through traits or pulsing condi removal. I think after the first time it is wiped you are immune to the WIPED condition for 2 seconds and that effect can only happen every 10 secs or so.

I think some traits may have to be tweaked to not gain this benefit at all (Shadow’s Embrace for Thieves for example.) But overall the idea felt pretty balanced all around.

I think it would help bolster the defenses of classes that are plagued by low condi removal and at the same time a 2 second pause on the condition type that was cleansed should not really hurt any skilled condition player all that much.

Overall I think this change to condition cleanses would bring a new type of counterplay for both sides. The defense for being able to counterplay a condition spike by timing the 2 sec immunity or the offense for keeping better track of when the opponent last used their condition clear.

That is the basic rough draft. Any other ideas, suggestions or questions about clarification are welcome!

No offense, but people need to get over the fact that conditions are killing them. I get that conditions might be over the top at the moment, but that’s beside the point. Conditions were intended to be an alternative source of damage, and certain builds hinge around it entirely. Why should all of my damage, which is based on conditions, be negated for two seconds beyond the fact that you just wiped all of my previously incomplete damage?
What you’re asking for is essentially the same as me asking for my blocking skills to also get an additional two seconds of 50% damage reduction and immunity to critical hits.

Conditions should be a viable way to kill someone in any meta. Most people act like conditions shouldn’t do damage. While condition builds are strong right now there are just as many viable and played power builds. Warriors, gaurdians, thieves, and eles play mostly power builds. PU Mesmer is bad in a cap point game. Rangers would be bad if spirits didn’t provide good group support. Engis are strong, but still killable. Necros are also pretty strong, but don’t have good damage mitigation (Only people who think death shroud is equivalent to invuls, blocks, aegis, vigor are insane). If a condition build is over the top something needs to be reduced, but the people consistently asking for things like this ^ are asking for Rangers, Necros, and Engis (the condition classes) to have all their viable builds removed from the game.

Thanks for being constructive. Like i said. If you think a 2 sec immunity after a long cd cleanse is going to destroy your build, then you have other issues you need to take into consideration.

Also, the idea is for this to only work on utility cleanses for yourself. And only effects the condition cleansed.

My point is your acting like condition application is a problem. Condition application is how condition builds do damage. Taking it away for 2 seconds gives one more invuln for 2 seconds. Consider that blocks, dodges, and invulns already mitigate condition damage that is being applied to you just the same as direct damage. That means you would have one extra way to mitigate condition damage. Currently there are more ways to mitigate condition damage then direct damage. Did you forget that every way you can stop direct damage you are also able to stop condition damage by not letting it be applied? Then you have condition removal, and condition immunity which several classes have. On top of that your asking for a 3rd type of condition only damage mitigation. That would crush the condition classes in this game which you don’t play based on your sig. I understand thieves have a hard time with condition builds, and maybe that needs to be buffed, but all these crazy ideas about completely destroying condition damage are ridiculous when it can already be mitigated in more ways than direct damage. Maybe some condition builds are over the top and need to be toned down, but changing the game drastically will just add more imbalance and less variety.

Okay so we cant apply condi’s for 2 secs after a cleans. then what power build cant auto for say 3-4 secs after a heal. deal hah.

honestly wthh?
thats like saying zerk build crit to much vs squishies so we should get invuln after every crit i mean that wont break your build will it?

I play all builds all classes. Don’t try to belittle the topic by attacking me directly. Yes I fully understand the topic coming from both ends.

As a Thief i have great condi removal, that is not the issue here. I DO play condi classes, I play ALOT of engy in tourny.

You guys are using analogies that don’t even make sense on top of it. If I’m on my engy, and somebody uses a cleanse, I’m not going to freak out about having a 2 sec immunity timer on them. I’ll count to 2 and light them up again.

Besides, this is just a suggestion, there is no need to be so negative.

zapv.8051:

My point is your acting like condition application is a problem. Condition application is how condition builds do damage. Taking it away for 2 seconds gives one more invuln for 2 seconds. Consider that blocks, dodges, and invulns already mitigate condition damage that is being applied to you just the same as direct damage. That means you would have one extra way to mitigate condition damage. Currently there are more ways to mitigate condition damage then direct damage. Did you forget that every way you can stop direct damage you are also able to stop condition damage by not letting it be applied? Then you have condition removal, and condition immunity which several classes have. On top of that your asking for a 3rd type of condition only damage mitigation. That would crush the condition classes in this game which you don’t play based on your sig. I understand thieves have a hard time with condition builds, and maybe that needs to be buffed, but all these crazy ideas about completely destroying condition damage are ridiculous when it can already be mitigated in more ways than direct damage. Maybe some condition builds are over the top and need to be toned down, but changing the game drastically will just add more imbalance and less variety.

Direct damage counters:
Blocks
Protection
Invuln
Positioning
Blind
“Zero damage” abilities such as Endure Pain
Dodging
Total:7

Condition damage counters:
Blocks(Still damages if applied)
Invuln(still damages if applied)
Blind(same as first two)
Dodging
Condition Removal
Condition Immunity (Berserker Stance/Automated Response)
Total:6

The problem I could see with this is that in PvE, we want mobs to be able to more able handle conditions and other effects. At the same time however, conditions are still way too weak.

If mobs also had immunity to conditions…

Carighan.6758:

The problem I could see with this is that in PvE, we want mobs to be able to more able handle conditions and other effects. At the same time however, conditions are still way too weak.

If mobs also had immunity to conditions…

This would never effect PvE mobs. Problem solved. =)

Heizero.9183:

Condition damage counters:
Blocks(Still damages if applied)
Invuln(still damages if applied)
Blind(same as first two)
Dodging
Condition Removal
Condition Immunity (Berserker Stance/Automated Response)
Total:6

Don’t forget:
Positioning
Condition duration reduction (runes of melandru, runes of hoelbrak,….)
Total:8

Heizero.9183:

zapv.8051:

My point is your acting like condition application is a problem. Condition application is how condition builds do damage. Taking it away for 2 seconds gives one more invuln for 2 seconds. Consider that blocks, dodges, and invulns already mitigate condition damage that is being applied to you just the same as direct damage. That means you would have one extra way to mitigate condition damage. Currently there are more ways to mitigate condition damage then direct damage. Did you forget that every way you can stop direct damage you are also able to stop condition damage by not letting it be applied? Then you have condition removal, and condition immunity which several classes have. On top of that your asking for a 3rd type of condition only damage mitigation. That would crush the condition classes in this game which you don’t play based on your sig. I understand thieves have a hard time with condition builds, and maybe that needs to be buffed, but all these crazy ideas about completely destroying condition damage are ridiculous when it can already be mitigated in more ways than direct damage. Maybe some condition builds are over the top and need to be toned down, but changing the game drastically will just add more imbalance and less variety.

Direct damage counters:
Blocks
Protection
Invuln
Positioning
Blind
“Zero damage” abilities such as Endure Pain
Dodging
Total:7

Condition damage counters:
Blocks(Still damages if applied)
Invuln(still damages if applied)
Blind(same as first two)
Dodging
Condition Removal
Condition Immunity (Berserker Stance/Automated Response)
Total:6

1. Positioning counts for both sides. Line of Sight and AoEs.
2. Hey, direct damage also already leaves your health reduced if you block, invlun, or blind after they hit you with an attack. Wow, who would have thought…
3. You forgot Condition Duration reduction (Purging Flames). Unfortunately, not all classes have it evenly. On the other hand, not all classes have equal access to Protection either.
4. You forgot to add Aegis to both sides.
5. You can count this under Condition Removal if you want, but you didn’t mention Condition Transfer and Condition Conversion.

Overall, I think things are pretty balanced mechanics-wise. There’s also the fact that they do less damage overall and need to be applied more often to keep up with direct damage focused builds. As PvP and WvW has shown, the best defense against most condition builds tends to be putting them on the defensive and forcing them to kite. They can’t turn around, get one good hit in, then keep running like damage burst builds can. If they aren’t constantly hitting you, their effectiveness goes way down.

Heizero.9183:

Direct damage counters:
Blocks
Protection
Invuln
Positioning
Blind
“Zero damage” abilities such as Endure Pain
Dodging
Total:7

Condition damage counters:
Blocks(Still damages if applied)
Invuln(still damages if applied)
Blind(same as first two)
Dodging
Condition Removal
Condition Immunity (Berserker Stance/Automated Response)
Total:6

You forgot runes/traits that reduce condition duration as well…

The issue between Power and Conditions is how much direct damage can be negated compared to conditions in a fight between the two.

Power damage comes in large chunks, often with clear animations. If you avoid this damage through dodge, blind or block you negate a huge amount of damage.

Direct damage can be further reduced through toughness, protection and the weakness debuff.

Conditions on the other hand are applied a small amount at a time in rapid succession to build up and up in damage over time, quickly reaching 1000-2000 DPS. This means that successfully negating an attack through blind, block or dodge is far less effective overall.

Several conditions can be applied and stacked from range using trait and weapon procs simply by using auto-attack. There is nothing significant to dodge here, you only delay the damage application by 1s by dodging.
Compared to dodging away from a 100B and missing all that burst.

Condition removal is inferior to condition application in terms of the speed at which conditions can be applied vs removed. There is no equivalent for toughness.

Power builds need 3 damage stats to be most effective. Condition builds only need 1 stat, and while condition duration can be added to make a difference Condition builds also gain a huge boon in the form of Food.

+40% Condition Duration food means that a player can quite easily only aim for Condition Damage as a single damage stat and still do comparable sustained DPS to a Power build, while also retaining the two defensive stats through Dire gear.
And conditions innately provide both soft and hard cc and several debuffs to movement, direct damage attack and healing.

The way I see it, Power builds rely too much on burst. Because everything they do is set up or damage, their damage gets cut down all the time by mitigation efforts. You see this in burst builds against burst builds, where fights can go on for extended amounts of time if both sides bring enough ways to counter the other side’s burst until heals come off cooldown.

Hammer/Longbow Warriors are one of the few power builds that rely on consistent damage output. And a majority of their trait and utility choices are all defensive in nature. Triple stances, or swapping a stance out for an extra Stability source. Cleansing Ire with Burst Mastery. Traited stances for duration as well as Vigor on use. Lyssa runes combined with cooldown reduction for the elite. And despite all this, they still need a Soldier’s Amulet to stay alive in a team fight.

Do advocates of burst want there to be Berserker’s Amulet and nothing else? Either you’re running a burst combo spec or you’re the Support Guardian?

Condition duration does not effect the Application of conditions which is what he was arguing.

Okay, and, as a balance for this, all block/invuln skills are only for direct damage. How’s that?

Ezrael.6859:

The issue between Power and Conditions is how much direct damage can be negated compared to conditions in a fight between the two.

Power damage comes in large chunks, often with clear animations. If you avoid this damage through dodge, blind or block you negate a huge amount of damage.

Direct damage can be further reduced through toughness, protection and the weakness debuff.

Conditions on the other hand are applied a small amount at a time in rapid succession to build up and up in damage over time, quickly reaching 1000-2000 DPS. This means that successfully negating an attack through blind, block or dodge is far less effective overall.

Several conditions can be applied and stacked from range using trait and weapon procs simply by using auto-attack. There is nothing significant to dodge here, you only delay the damage application by 1s by dodging.
Compared to dodging away from a 100B and missing all that burst.

Condition removal is inferior to condition application in terms of the speed at which conditions can be applied vs removed. There is no equivalent for toughness.

Power builds need 3 damage stats to be most effective. Condition builds only need 1 stat, and while condition duration can be added to make a difference Condition builds also gain a huge boon in the form of Food.

+40% Condition Duration food means that a player can quite easily only aim for Condition Damage as a single damage stat and still do comparable sustained DPS to a Power build, while also retaining the two defensive stats through Dire gear.
And conditions innately provide both soft and hard cc and several debuffs to movement, direct damage attack and healing.

This is a well thought out post, summing up all the problems with condi tank specs atm, whenever anyone claims nothing is wrong with condi’s people should just copy and paste this post, hopefully it is copy and pasted into enough threads that the dev’s see it and realize they messed up.

Ezrael.6859:

The issue between Power and Conditions is how much direct damage can be negated compared to conditions in a fight between the two.

Power damage comes in large chunks, often with clear animations. If you avoid this damage through dodge, blind or block you negate a huge amount of damage.

Direct damage can be further reduced through toughness, protection and the weakness debuff.

Conditions on the other hand are applied a small amount at a time in rapid succession to build up and up in damage over time, quickly reaching 1000-2000 DPS. This means that successfully negating an attack through blind, block or dodge is far less effective overall.

Several conditions can be applied and stacked from range using trait and weapon procs simply by using auto-attack. There is nothing significant to dodge here, you only delay the damage application by 1s by dodging.
Compared to dodging away from a 100B and missing all that burst.

That is true to an extent but direct damage build dont only rely on big hits to kill, they too can wear down opponets the same way conditions do.

Take for example a typical full rabid trap ranger build. On this build, if I am flanking and crit and proc my bleed on crit trait with my shortbow AA I could stack 2 bleeds for a combined duration of 5s (3 from SB, 2 from trait).

With a setup like that my bleeds will tick for 150 ish, and my damge will be 150-250 depending on the target, so essentially my Auto-Attack is going to do 900-1000 damage in total over the next 5 seconds.

A power build could EASILY do the same damage with an auto attack – easily. Full zerker builds can be hitting 2-3k with AA, but thats an extreme case so we wont go off that. The point is though that a condition build is not doing any more damage with its little attacks stacking up than a power build would, its probably even doing less, its just that people dont react to condition builds the same way.

If someone is fighting s warrior and get hits with 3 auto attacks and takes 5K damage, they get nervous and back off or play more defensively, but if they get hit my 3 AA from a condition build and take 800 damage and 5 stacks of bleeding they think “hes barely hurting me, I’m going to keep attacking”, all the while not realising that they are playing themselves into a corner.

My point is.. while conditions builds do wear people down with lots of little attacks often, its something power can do as well they just choose not to because they prefer to go for the #3-5 skill which could hit 8k instantly, instead of playing is slow and using the smaller hits that people wont/cant dodge, or using the ranged weapons that hit less but will hit constantly.

Spicyhash.7605:

Okay, and, as a balance for this, all block/invuln skills are only for direct damage. How’s that?

They’ll also prevent the application of new conditions unless it’s a necro traited for unblockable marks (but there are also unblockable direct damage stuffs).

Sounds like you’re basically asking for conds that have already been applied to not deal damage during a block/invuln? Doesn’t seem very balanced to me…

Cufufalating.8479:

Ezrael.6859:

The issue between Power and Conditions is how much direct damage can be negated compared to conditions in a fight between the two.

Power damage comes in large chunks, often with clear animations. If you avoid this damage through dodge, blind or block you negate a huge amount of damage.

Direct damage can be further reduced through toughness, protection and the weakness debuff.

Conditions on the other hand are applied a small amount at a time in rapid succession to build up and up in damage over time, quickly reaching 1000-2000 DPS. This means that successfully negating an attack through blind, block or dodge is far less effective overall.

Several conditions can be applied and stacked from range using trait and weapon procs simply by using auto-attack. There is nothing significant to dodge here, you only delay the damage application by 1s by dodging.
Compared to dodging away from a 100B and missing all that burst.

That is true to an extent but direct damage build dont only rely on big hits to kill, they too can wear down opponets the same way conditions do.

Take for example a typical full rabid trap ranger build. On this build, if I am flanking and crit and proc my bleed on crit trait with my shortbow AA I could stack 2 bleeds for a combined duration of 5s (3 from SB, 2 from trait).

With a setup like that my bleeds will tick for 150 ish, and my damge will be 150-250 depending on the target, so essentially my Auto-Attack is going to do 900-1000 damage in total over the next 5 seconds.

A power build could EASILY do the same damage with an auto attack – easily. Full zerker builds can be hitting 2-3k with AA, but thats an extreme case so we wont go off that. The point is though that a condition build is not doing any more damage with its little attacks stacking up than a power build would, its probably even doing less, its just that people dont react to condition builds the same way.

If someone is fighting s warrior and get hits with 3 auto attacks and takes 5K damage, they get nervous and back off or play more defensively, but if they get hit my 3 AA from a condition build and take 800 damage and 5 stacks of bleeding they think “hes barely hurting me, I’m going to keep attacking”, all the while not realising that they are playing themselves into a corner.

My point is.. while conditions builds do wear people down with lots of little attacks often, its something power can do as well they just choose not to because they prefer to go for the #3-5 skill which could hit 8k instantly, instead of playing is slow and using the smaller hits that people wont/cant dodge, or using the ranged weapons that hit less but will hit constantly.

The problem is that condition builds can do this kind of damage, while specing to be full tank, this is because of how condition damage works. Lets say your playing the build you mentioned. You only need condition damage to effect your damage, and some amount of precision to get you around 30% crit chance, every other stat can go to making you tanky, so by using a combination of rabid and dire and you can be max condi dps and max tank. This is made worse by the fact that every profession’s trait line has condition damage paired with either toughness or precision, making it even easier to gain these stats.

For direct damage you need both power and crit damage to augment the damage you deal, and you also need precision to help you reach this damage, so while full zerker will do more damage then a condi class by alot, it does so by sacrificing all of its survivability stats, and the more and more survivability stats you add the more your direct damage suffers, to the point where if you reach the same tankiness that a condi tank can reach, you are putting out much lower dps.

Flat out immunity is not good. Not for anything or anyone. Curing conditions, imo, should work like this:
Instead of 1 skill removing 15 stacks of bleed or 10 sec of burn
Said skill acts the same way as a condition, over time
Any condi affected gets a certain amount of stacks or duration removed
Said amounts tbd

Waddya think

Legion.1569:

The problem is that condition builds can do this kind of damage, while specing to be full tank, this is because of how condition damage works. Lets say your playing the build you mentioned. You only need condition damage to effect your damage, and some amount of precision to get you around 30% crit chance, every other stat can go to making you tanky, so by using a combination of rabid and dire and you can be max condi dps and max tank. This is made worse by the fact that every profession’s trait line has condition damage paired with either toughness or precision, making it even easier to gain these stats.

For direct damage you need both power and crit damage to augment the damage you deal, and you also need precision to help you reach this damage, so while full zerker will do more damage then a condi class by alot, it does so by sacrificing all of its survivability stats, and the more and more survivability stats you add the more your direct damage suffers, to the point where if you reach the same tankiness that a condi tank can reach, you are putting out much lower dps.

Again thats true to an extent, but its not as kittenome people make out (not nessesarily you, but people in general).

In the build I currently run on my ranger I can crit for 500-1000 depending on the target, and I still have 2950 armour, 21k HP and 900 condiation damage (yes its a hybrid build).

If I converted that to a pure power build by losing the condition damage and corrupt stacking sigils (so another 250 stats to play with) then I am quite confident I could be critting for 800-1300, 45% crit chance and still maintain 3000 armour and 21k health, which is all I could ever expect to get in a rabid/dire build.

I’m not saying it is not a problem at all.. I do see the point that condition builds can get away with only 1 offensive stats, but it is balanced to a large degree by power builds not needing to take their stats as high as they think. Crits already do a bonus +50% damage, you dont need to have +100% crit damage to be dealing strong damage hits consistantly. You need 50%-70%, and only 30-40 crit chance. Thats easily done, much easier than people realise.

I really do think a lot of the time it come down to how the majority of people play power builds. They make a power build thinking its all about damage and quick kills, and very few people build for actually winning in a sustained fight. Then they come across a condition player who has build for a sustained fight because its too his advantage, and they lose. Then they blame conditions when infact they just didnt build to outlast people, they build to kill fast or die trying and so they did die trying.

Ezrael.6859:

+40% Condition Duration food means that a player can quite easily only aim for Condition Damage as a single damage stat and still do comparable sustained DPS to a Power build, while also retaining the two defensive stats through Dire gear.
And conditions innately provide both soft and hard cc and several debuffs to movement, direct damage attack and healing.

Actually this is quit false.. For starters, dodges, blinds, and blocks, all negate condition damage as well.

Secondly, the difference of conditions applied through the various traits,runes, and sigils that proc on crit is approximately 35% of any particular professions condition damage.

The worst part about what your saying, is that it is complete and total conjecture, in which your assumption is actually completely very inaccurate. As someone in another thread recently made comments about condition damage, I will use that example. Engineers have 3 weapons choices. Pistol, shield, and rifle. That is it. A condition build with P/P for example requires 1700+ condition damage, and at least 50% condition duration with enough precession to reach 35%, to reach the same damage of P/V/T build, with a rifle.

What I am telling you is, It might be wise to stop inaccurately assuming that with the condition damage stat alone, that the damage is comparable, and thus state it kitten, without actually adding anything resembling a fact, to support it.

The reason you never see anyone making the same statement as what I quoted, adding actual numbers of soldiers gear compared to dire gear, is because to do so would be to actually provide your own proof against your own argument.

The fact of the matter is, your making conjecture it even be able to make this statement. Your statement is actually inaccurate, because a gamage comparison of soldiers gear to dire gear is in favor of soldiers by 20%+ in the case of most professions. In the case of ranger, engineer, and mesmer, the damage comparison is closer to 25%+. So please do not continue to make these types of post until you actual know what your saying is true, which it is not.

Legion.1569:

Cufufalating.8479:

Ezrael.6859:

The issue between Power and Conditions is how much direct damage can be negated compared to conditions in a fight between the two.

Power damage comes in large chunks, often with clear animations. If you avoid this damage through dodge, blind or block you negate a huge amount of damage.

Direct damage can be further reduced through toughness, protection and the weakness debuff.

Conditions on the other hand are applied a small amount at a time in rapid succession to build up and up in damage over time, quickly reaching 1000-2000 DPS. This means that successfully negating an attack through blind, block or dodge is far less effective overall.

Several conditions can be applied and stacked from range using trait and weapon procs simply by using auto-attack. There is nothing significant to dodge here, you only delay the damage application by 1s by dodging.
Compared to dodging away from a 100B and missing all that burst.

That is true to an extent but direct damage build dont only rely on big hits to kill, they too can wear down opponets the same way conditions do.

Take for example a typical full rabid trap ranger build. On this build, if I am flanking and crit and proc my bleed on crit trait with my shortbow AA I could stack 2 bleeds for a combined duration of 5s (3 from SB, 2 from trait).

With a setup like that my bleeds will tick for 150 ish, and my damge will be 150-250 depending on the target, so essentially my Auto-Attack is going to do 900-1000 damage in total over the next 5 seconds.

A power build could EASILY do the same damage with an auto attack – easily. Full zerker builds can be hitting 2-3k with AA, but thats an extreme case so we wont go off that. The point is though that a condition build is not doing any more damage with its little attacks stacking up than a power build would, its probably even doing less, its just that people dont react to condition builds the same way.

If someone is fighting s warrior and get hits with 3 auto attacks and takes 5K damage, they get nervous and back off or play more defensively, but if they get hit my 3 AA from a condition build and take 800 damage and 5 stacks of bleeding they think “hes barely hurting me, I’m going to keep attacking”, all the while not realising that they are playing themselves into a corner.

My point is.. while conditions builds do wear people down with lots of little attacks often, its something power can do as well they just choose not to because they prefer to go for the #3-5 skill which could hit 8k instantly, instead of playing is slow and using the smaller hits that people wont/cant dodge, or using the ranged weapons that hit less but will hit constantly.

The problem is that condition builds can do this kind of damage, while specing to be full tank, this is because of how condition damage works. Lets say your playing the build you mentioned. You only need condition damage to effect your damage, and some amount of precision to get you around 30% crit chance, every other stat can go to making you tanky, so by using a combination of rabid and dire and you can be max condi dps and max tank. This is made worse by the fact that every profession’s trait line has condition damage paired with either toughness or precision, making it even easier to gain these stats.

For direct damage you need both power and crit damage to augment the damage you deal, and you also need precision to help you reach this damage, so while full zerker will do more damage then a condi class by alot, it does so by sacrificing all of its survivability stats, and the more and more survivability stats you add the more your direct damage suffers, to the point where if you reach the same tankiness that a condi tank can reach, you are putting out much lower dps.

Except that condition builds need those tanky stats. Remember how Burst builds ruled the roost? Condition builds came about by being as defensive as necessary in gear, trait, and utility choice. And even then certain specs had to be buffed for them to have a shot.

Hammer/Longbow then comes about as an example of being tanky while putting out decent power damage (and by decent I mean enough to kill) using a Soldier’s Amulet.

Heizero.9183:

Direct damage counters:
Blocks
Protection
Invuln
Positioning
Blind
“Zero damage” abilities such as Endure Pain
Dodging
Total:7

Condition damage counters:
Blocks(Still damages if applied)
Invuln(still damages if applied)
Blind(same as first two)
Dodging
Condition Removal
Condition Immunity (Berserker Stance/Automated Response)
Total:6

That is incorrect:
Direct Damage counters:
blocks(aegis counts too)
protection
invuln (this includes endure pain)
positioning
blind
dodging

Condition damage counters:
blocks
invulns
blind
dodging
positioning (this one is kind of lol there are ranged and melee condition and power weapons)
condition removal
condition duration reduction(automated response, diamond skin, zerker’s stance, melandru, lemongrass)

I forgot about protection in my original post, but the argument still favors direct damage heavily. that’s not even pointing out that condition builds attack slower making aegis and blind more effective.