Guild Wars 2

Weakness for condition damage.

Why are there so many counters vs raw damage? like weakness (50% of attacks does 50% damage..) or like toughness ONLY reduces raw damage..

Most condi classes also have the condition weakness making them a real hard counter vs raw damage classes/weapons..

Why not give those classes (on the raw damage weapons) a new condition only for them to decrease 50% of condition damage to 50%.

Because while nothing divides condition damage, nothing multiplies it either. Also, direct damage can’t be cleansed after the hit.

Could my conditions also crit please so my bleeds can tick for 600.

Thanks.

Even though I despise condi builds, I think this idea is simply unfair. Condis don’t crit, it’s DoT and can be cleansed. Try to cleanse 10k backstab or evis :P

there are some condis that tick 2k, and reaplyed on range auto atack, if those conditions could crit game would be more instagib than it already is.

Because power builds are objectively better in every scenario except roaming against bad players or players whose builds are too specialized to bother with defense, where it equals power builds.

Aeolus.3615:

there are some condis that tick 2k, and reaplyed on range auto atack, if those conditions could crit game would be more instagib than it already is.

And do you know how long it builds up a stack of bleeds to tick that hard? With 2k condition damage (requiring either sigil stacks or might stacks, by the way), each bleed stack ticks for 145. That’s 14 stacks to reach 2k/tick, which takes forever to get to by just auto-attacking.

I have never seen a case where conditions were “instagib”. Even the fastest condition kills still take ~10 seconds.

Roe.3679:

Because power builds are objectively better in every scenario except roaming against bad players or players whose builds are too specialized to bother with defense, where it equals power builds.

roaming against bad players?

there is no matchup where a condi necro or mesmer wouldnt have the advantage over a power based class, regardless of whether the power based player is good or bad or how they are specced.

even a cleansing ire longbow warrior, or a ranger who takes empathic bond, fittest, renewal signet and healing spring, or a guardian who takes purity, purging flames, smite condition and absolute resolution, none of those classes have enough condi removal counter the condi meta and they are currenty the best condi removal classes in the game (although warriors probably shouldnt be, but thats another story). that should tell you something.

notable exceptions might be power necros and ether renewal ele’s, but the first barely exists and the second is easily interrupted and killed.

condition spam is unquestionably out of control and needs to be brought in line.
perplexity needs to go.
the amount of cover conditions needs to be reduced.
condition +/- duration food needs to go.

Raven.9603:

Roe.3679:

Because power builds are objectively better in every scenario except roaming against bad players or players whose builds are too specialized to bother with defense, where it equals power builds.

roaming against bad players?

there is no matchup where a condi necro or mesmer wouldnt have the advantage over a power based class, regardless of whether the power based player is good or bad or how they are specced.

even a cleansing ire longbow warrior, or a ranger who takes empathic bond, fittest, renewal signet and healing spring, or a guardian who takes purity, purging flames, smite condition and absolute resolution, none of those classes have enough condi removal counter the condi meta and they are currenty the best condi removal classes in the game (although warriors probably shouldnt be, but thats another story). that should tell you something.

notable exceptions might be power necros and ether renewal ele’s, but the first barely exists and the second is easily interrupted and killed.

condition spam is unquestionably out of control and needs to be brought in line.
perplexity needs to go.
the amount of cover conditions needs to be reduced.
condition +/- duration food needs to go.

So no class can completely, 100% negate the damage of another class/spec is what you are saying? Should that be possible?

All I ever hear with this argument is that you think you should be immune to conditions instead of losing to players who use them. It has been proven over and over and over again that power builds deal more damage than condition builds and there is not a single good argument that states otherwise.

Oh and also, prove the existence of a condi meta. Please. I’d love to hear how it exists somewhere despite absolutely no evidence of such a thing.

Raven.9603:

Roe.3679:

Because power builds are objectively better in every scenario except roaming against bad players or players whose builds are too specialized to bother with defense, where it equals power builds.

roaming against bad players?

there is no matchup where a condi necro or mesmer wouldnt have the advantage over a power based class, regardless of whether the power based player is good or bad or how they are specced.

even a cleansing ire longbow warrior, or a ranger who takes empathic bond, fittest, renewal signet and healing spring, or a guardian who takes purity, purging flames, smite condition and absolute resolution, none of those classes have enough condi removal counter the condi meta and they are currenty the best condi removal classes in the game (although warriors probably shouldnt be, but thats another story). that should tell you something.

Only because they think they have to keep themselves totally clear of conditions. (Hint: you don’t!) Ergo, the quoted post was correct: Conditions are on top nowhere except against bad players when roaming or in hotjoin PvP.

What the kitten has changed in the game in the past 3 months that warrants conditions to be considered OP?

People dealt with condi builds before, I guess it’s a tad tougher now if cleanses have been reduced in effectiveness, but cleansing neutralizes condition builds which is unfair if you can pretty much keep yourself condition-free.

This suggestion makes little since because there are already 2 counters to conditions:
- Cleansing
- negative duration

May sound limited, but conditions themselves aren’t very effective with only 3 ways to get better performance out of them:
- Condition Damage
- positive duration
- stack more conditions

Perhaps it’s not the conditions that are tough on you, OP, but the builds you face? Don’t condition builds often have a defensive edge since only the 1 stat category is often focused on, leaving toughness and healing as options to build toward? It’s probably the mix of offense and defense that you’re having trouble dealing with. Power/crit builds are often quite fragile, even to conditions. You should blast your enemies down quickly and if you fail, run away so you can try again.

Roe.3679:

So no class can completely, 100% negate the damage of another class/spec is what you are saying? Should that be possible?

nowhere did i say that. I said there is no situation in which those 2 condi specced classes dont have the advantage in a matchup against a power based opponent. I supported that argument by highlighting the best classes and condi clearing. despite incorperating tons of clears, the odds are still against those classes to defeat a condi mesmer or condi necro (as they are against all classes to defeat condi necros and mesmers).

Roe.3679:

Oh and also, prove the existence of a condi meta. Please. I’d love to hear how it exists somewhere despite absolutely no evidence of such a thing.

lets not derail the thread with arguments that could only be anecdotal. if youre going to stand around and argue that the meta for roaming is not condi specs, thats fine, all the readers will have a good chuckle but im just going to move on.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Only because they think they have to keep themselves totally clear of conditions. (Hint: you don’t!)

You are right, i forgot to put in that I was only comparing idiots who blow their condi clears against 2 stacks of bleeds against mesmers and necros. silly me!

Ask yourself:
As a condi memser or condi necro: do you win more often than not against equally skilled power warriors, guardians, or rangers (if each is specced heavily for condi removal)? Do you win more often than not against equally skilled power specced classes in general?

Of course you do. Now why is that?

Raven.9603:

despite incorperating tons of clears, the odds are still against those classes to defeat a condi mesmer or condi necro

Why?

Ask yourself:
As a condi memser or condi necro: do you win more often than not against equally skilled power warriors, guardians, or rangers (if each is specced heavily for condi removal)? Do you win more often than not against equally skilled power specced classes in general?

Of course you do. Now why is that?

I don’t play condi mesmer or necro at all, but I did play a condi ranger for a while and I’d say the reason I could defeat equally skilled power build classes is because I often incorporated sustain into the build under the premise “If I can’t keep myself alive, I won’t live to see my bleeds whittle down my foe.”

Leo G.4501:

Raven.9603:

despite incorperating tons of clears, the odds are still against those classes to defeat a condi mesmer or condi necro

Why?

Because the introduction of perplexity runes, power creep applying both more cover conditions and more damaging conditions to more classes. condition food, and gear that was not in the game at launch (dire, apoth, etc) has gradually (though thoroughly) surpassed the introduction of new cleanses to deal with those conditions. Currently condi mesmers and necros are the kings of 1v1 because there is not enough condi removal in the game to effectively combat them.

Leo G.4501:

Raven.9603:

Ask yourself:
As a condi memser or condi necro: do you win more often than not against equally skilled power warriors, guardians, or rangers (if each is specced heavily for condi removal)? Do you win more often than not against equally skilled power specced classes in general?

Of course you do. Now why is that?

I don’t play condi mesmer or necro at all, but I did play a condi ranger for a while and I’d say the reason I could defeat equally skilled power build classes is because I often incorporated sustain into the build under the premise “If I can’t keep myself alive, I won’t live to see my bleeds whittle down my foe.”

the situation is directed at mesmers and necros.
as for your ranger, remember that your ability to incorperate sustain is something power classes have less leeway to do because condition damage requires far less stat investment to be effective, leaving more for stats remaining for health, armor or sustain. also remember that condi BM rangers got nerfed very hard for how OP they were.

Raven.9603:

Roe.3679:

So no class can completely, 100% negate the damage of another class/spec is what you are saying? Should that be possible?

nowhere did i say that. I said there is no situation in which those 2 condi specced classes dont have the advantage in a matchup against a power based opponent. I supported that argument by highlighting the best classes and condi clearing. despite incorperating tons of clears, the odds are still against those classes to defeat a condi mesmer or condi necro (as they are against all classes to defeat condi necros and mesmers).

Roe.3679:

Oh and also, prove the existence of a condi meta. Please. I’d love to hear how it exists somewhere despite absolutely no evidence of such a thing.

lets not derail the thread with arguments that could only be anecdotal. if youre going to stand around and argue that the meta for roaming is not condi specs, thats fine, all the readers will have a good chuckle but im just going to move on.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Only because they think they have to keep themselves totally clear of conditions. (Hint: you don’t!)

You are right, i forgot to put in that I was only comparing idiots who blow their condi clears against 2 stacks of bleeds against mesmers and necros. silly me!

Ask yourself:
As a condi memser or condi necro: do you win more often than not against equally skilled power warriors, guardians, or rangers (if each is specced heavily for condi removal)? Do you win more often than not against equally skilled power specced classes in general?

Of course you do. Now why is that?

Equally skilled, no. I’d call it 50/50. Of course, I’m not counting those that run away from me when roaming. Some run because I was winning, others run because they don’t want to take the time to fight. Others still run because they had enemies approaching (many times, this is the third server’s zerg).

Against Warriors, I lose much more often than not because they can exploit my weakness to hard CC. An equally skilled Warrior is a very tough fight for a condition necro. Typical condi removal is CI and nothing else on them.

Against Guardians, it depends on if I have Corrupt Boon/Well of Corruption on my bar and how I time them. This isn’t because they have insufficient tools to deal with my conditions, but rather I have the ability to remove their greatest strength. And once I do, they still don’t go down fast. If I’m running without boon corruption, I have a tougher time and lose about 60% of the time. Guardian’s chasis, however, is the perfect target for conditions: high armor, low health. These guys are always the longest fights, regardless of their speccing for condition removal.

Against Rangers, I win almost all the time because I can apply AoE conditions to them and their pets, then Epidemic the pet. I actually have a harder time dealing with them if their pet is dead than alive. Plus, until Survival of the Fittest was introduced, Ranger’s active clears sucked. All you had to do was get the cleanse pulses down and it was easy to deal with them as a condition build.

As a final note: the “stack conditions on the pet, then Epidemic” strategy doesn’t work against Mesmer illusions because they don’t survive that long.

Condition damage NEEDS more health, armor and sustain because conditions take time to deal damage. If you had something like “condi crit chance” and “condi crit damage” you could get away from having more sustain on condi classes.

i have nothing against condis if they weren’t so “usually”…tanky.

godofcows.2451:

i have nothing against condis if they weren’t so “usually”…tanky.

They have to be. They have to survive long enough for their damage to actually happen.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

godofcows.2451:

i have nothing against condis if they weren’t so “usually”…tanky.

They have to be. They have to survive long enough for their damage to actually happen.

This is a lie. It’s not the way, that condi speccs have to facetank the enemy. And while using Cc, invuls, stealth and oor, your conditions are running. A power specc can’t do damage while using this stuff. It’s Cc Meta, which is cool, but condi builds profits to much out of it.

Nano.3706:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

godofcows.2451:

i have nothing against condis if they weren’t so “usually”…tanky.

They have to be. They have to survive long enough for their damage to actually happen.

This is a lie. It’s not the way, that condi speccs have to facetank the enemy. And while using Cc, invuls, stealth and oor, your conditions are running. A power specc can’t do damage while using this stuff. It’s Cc Meta, which is cool, but condi builds profits to much out of it.

No, when you’re dodging, invulnerable, stealth, etc., you are not doing damage with conditions. The attacks you have already landed are ticking. No new damage is being dealt.

Condition specs don’t necessarily have to facetank (with exception of necros, because they facetank everything regardless of spec), but they do have to survive their opponents cooldowns multiple times more than a glass cannon Power spec does simply because it takes much more time to kill. As such, they end up having more incoming damage over the course of a fight.

TLDR: Durability isn’t a luxury of condition builds. It’s a necessity.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Nano.3706:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

godofcows.2451:

i have nothing against condis if they weren’t so “usually”…tanky.

They have to be. They have to survive long enough for their damage to actually happen.

This is a lie. It’s not the way, that condi speccs have to facetank the enemy. And while using Cc, invuls, stealth and oor, your conditions are running. A power specc can’t do damage while using this stuff. It’s Cc Meta, which is cool, but condi builds profits to much out of it.

No, when you’re dodging, invulnerable, stealth, etc., you are not doing damage with conditions. The attacks you have already landed are ticking. No new damage is being dealt.

Condition specs don’t necessarily have to facetank (with exception of necros, because they facetank everything regardless of spec), but they do have to survive their opponents cooldowns multiple times more than a glass cannon Power spec does simply because it takes much more time to kill. As such, they end up having more incoming damage over the course of a fight.

TLDR: Durability isn’t a luxury of condition builds. It’s a necessity.

But not in the form of dire gear.

Hey, Solder’s Gear isn’t necessary for a Power build to be durable and it still out-damages Dire while providing equal defense.

Most condition builds really feel the lack of Precision from Rabid or Power from Carrion when they choose to go Dire instead. The loss of damage is quite noticeable.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Nano.3706:

This is a lie. It’s not the way, that condi speccs have to facetank the enemy. And while using Cc, invuls, stealth and oor, your conditions are running. A power specc can’t do damage while using this stuff. It’s Cc Meta, which is cool, but condi builds profits to much out of it.

No, when you’re dodging, invulnerable, stealth, etc., you are not doing damage with conditions. The attacks you have already landed are ticking. No new damage is being dealt.

Are you kidding? You are doing damage with the conditions applied! Maybe you should use veggie pizza or coi cakes, if your applied conditions are runnin out while dodging o0

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Hey, Solder’s Gear isn’t necessary for a Power build to be durable and it still out-damages Dire while providing equal defense.

Ok. You are a Troll!

Nano.3706:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Nano.3706:

This is a lie. It’s not the way, that condi speccs have to facetank the enemy. And while using Cc, invuls, stealth and oor, your conditions are running. A power specc can’t do damage while using this stuff. It’s Cc Meta, which is cool, but condi builds profits to much out of it.

No, when you’re dodging, invulnerable, stealth, etc., you are not doing damage with conditions. The attacks you have already landed are ticking. No new damage is being dealt.

Are you kidding? You are doing damage with the conditions applied! Maybe you should use veggie pizza or coi cakes, if your applied conditions are runnin out while dodging o0

That is no different than an Ele dropping a Dragon’s Tooth, then having it land while the ele is dodging. The skill has already been used, you are just now seeing the results of it. You are not using other attacks at that time, so you’re not actually doing any damage. You’re just waiting for the damage you’ve already applied to actually happen.

If a condition build stops attacking for any reason, their DPS drops. The difference is that the loss of damage is not all instant, but rather they deal less damage for the next X seconds.

And I am quite serious on Soldier’s gear out-damaging Dire. Look around, I’m sure you can find some of the numerous tests.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

That is no different than an Ele dropping a Dragon’s Tooth, then having it land while the ele is dodging. The skill has already been used, you are just now seeing the results of it. You are not using other attacks at that time, so you’re not actually doing any damage. You’re just waiting for the damage you’ve already applied to actually happen.

If a condition build stops attacking for any reason, their DPS drops. The difference is that the loss of damage is not all instant, but rather they deal less damage for the next X seconds.

And I am quite serious on Soldier’s gear out-damaging Dire. Look around, I’m sure you can find some of the numerous tests.

Gratz, you have found a direct damage skill with time delay. Maybe turret AA of the Engi?

If a condi specc stops attacking, the dps drops AFTER the conditions runs out!

C´mon, you never killed an enemy in fear within seconds?

I´m sorry, i have to ask:

You say, that Condi Meta is NOT out of control in different aspects of the game?
(non-blobbing-wvw)

I never understood the concern with conditions. Even when playing on an Engy, I welcomed necros for how easy they were to kill. Generally, condition-based builds have their weaknesses.

However, what I noticed is that most people actually don’t bring condition removal, especially really glassy builds. I guess they feel the best defense against conditions is to go to the forums and ask for them to be nerfed. In the meantime, I’ve started playing a condition guardian and just roll over them with it.

Nano.3706:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

That is no different than an Ele dropping a Dragon’s Tooth, then having it land while the ele is dodging. The skill has already been used, you are just now seeing the results of it. You are not using other attacks at that time, so you’re not actually doing any damage. You’re just waiting for the damage you’ve already applied to actually happen.

If a condition build stops attacking for any reason, their DPS drops. The difference is that the loss of damage is not all instant, but rather they deal less damage for the next X seconds.

And I am quite serious on Soldier’s gear out-damaging Dire. Look around, I’m sure you can find some of the numerous tests.

Gratz, you have found a direct damage skill with time delay. Maybe turret AA of the Engi?

If a condi specc stops attacking, the dps drops AFTER the conditions runs out!

C´mon, you never killed an enemy in fear within seconds?

I´m sorry, i have to ask:

You say, that Condi Meta is NOT out of control in different aspects of the game?
(non-blobbing-wvw)

Well of Suffering, Meteor Shower, Barrage, even Arcing Arrow or Cluster Bomb can work. The skill has already gone off, you’re just waiting for the damage to actually happen. If you’re not attacking, your DPS is dropping.

And no, the DPS starts dropping immedietly. If you’re not applying new stacks, your old ones are still running their course and dropping off. The DPS loss is just spread out over several seconds instead of being all in one go.

This may surprise you, but there has never been a condition meta.

PvE? Hugely dominated by Power to the point where you will actually get kicked from some groups if you run a condition build.
sPvP? Condition builds are in the minority again, but these teams are essentially random. No “meta” can be formed when teams lack control.
tPvP? At most, a team will have one condition user. Just as often, they have none. Hardly a “condition meta” when condition builds make up ~10% of what’s used.
WvW? Mass cleanses in ZvZ warfare make them largely irrelevant. Roaming is the only place in all of GW2 where condition builds are actually popular and they still aren’t the majority.

@DaShi: Wow. They must get get really ticked when they realize the reason they’re losing to you is because they’re just that bad. Kudos to you.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Aeolus.3615:

there are some condis that tick 2k, and reaplyed on range auto atack, if those conditions could crit game would be more instagib than it already is.

And do you know how long it builds up a stack of bleeds to tick that hard? With 2k condition damage (requiring either sigil stacks or might stacks, by the way), each bleed stack ticks for 145. That’s 14 stacks to reach 2k/tick, which takes forever to get to by just auto-attacking.

I have never seen a case where conditions were “instagib”. Even the fastest condition kills still take ~10 seconds.

You’re only counting bleeds. The big one here is confusion. It is painfully easy to stack upwards of 20 stacks of confusion in just a second on some classes and it’s GG.

Nano.3706:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

godofcows.2451:

i have nothing against condis if they weren’t so “usually”…tanky.

They have to be. They have to survive long enough for their damage to actually happen.

This is a lie. It’s not the way, that condi speccs have to facetank the enemy. And while using Cc, invuls, stealth and oor, your conditions are running. A power specc can’t do damage while using this stuff. It’s Cc Meta, which is cool, but condi builds profits to much out of it.

So what you’re saying is, Whirlwind Attack no longer evades attacks?

@Drarnor

I will just throw these out there not putting up a argument. Some insight on a view of things.

PVE - That only happens when you’re trying for the pro elite speedrunners squad who try to complete dungeons the fastest to get the reward faster. If you don’t remember how the LS Assault on Lion’s Arch in Season 1 with the watch nights and the marionette phases Condition specs were actually accepted because they helped out a lot during those fights. Watchnights were brutally slow when conditions weren’t present and being reflected back, but when they were allowed again it sped things up. So the only reason you would get kicked is if you were doing dungeon for speed runs.

Spvp - They’re a bit more balanced there since stats and duration are limited without food. Conditions do help take down bunkers with poison, and things that bypass armor, but main reason why it doesn’t flourish in the top area of tournaments is because it takes too long to kill someone when the point of the gamemode is obviously to cap points but if you’re a condition corruption necro on the other hand with corruption it helps out a lot, against boon stacking. There’s also the things such as Spvp being barred off from perplexity runes and foods. If there were other competitive game modes this might change.

WvW - Blobs, conditions and everything fly around and get cleansed. power builds accumulate to total power of the zerg meaning a bunch of soldier gear wearers will lump their non-critting damage together. Opposed to conditions having to wait for their damage to tick as well as being cleansed by numerous variables of the blob. So condition builds will always be behind power builds in the scene of blobbing unless most of the other blob is scattered and the back lines are getting bombed.

WvW Solo Roaming - About 70% of the time now a days you will find a P/D Condi theif, a PU mesmer, condi engi, or perplexity terror necro. These builds dominate the roaming meta, with access to more runes and stats and a cheap(price) +40% Condition duration food opposed to the overpriced -condition duration food.No one roams in majority soldiers gear for a reason, and almost everyone who does gets their behind handed to them, unless the people they’re fighting are really bad, and still new to the game. There are also tons of ways to mitigate burst and direct damage, via weakness, protection, armor etc.

WvW havoc/small group roaming - They do just fine in this area and it’s any group’s game when it comes to group vs group, it comes down to who’s more coordinated with each other.

On another note. Things like 1 stack of bleeding will tick for over 1k damage over time, that’s 1 auto attack from a direct damage build, now include multiple damaging conditions and more stack, and over time this will easily eat through anyone’s health pool. Most condition builds are ranged, so all you have to do is focus on applying, surviving and making sure you aren’t hit much keeping your distance. Until your foe gets downed by the whole board of condition. The only thing that counters conditions out right are Condition removals, so unless you spec a good portion of your build, sigils or runes into removing conditions (which you should), you run on a timer until you die, while trying to kill some tanky condi spec that kites you. And – Condition duration is a scarce stat, which is only achieved by runes, food, and a few selection of profession traits.

This is just insight post why conditions appear OP in the eyes of others. Most power builds sacrifice defense or offense to do whatever they desired the build was made for, and some people view Condi specs getting the best of both worlds killing power, and good defense. Though it’s true, not all condition builds are OP, just a selection of popular condition specs. Actual play and throwing out numbers are two different things, crunching numbers works for PVE because enemies will always stand still and eat the damage, against other players however there are too many variables to consider damage math.

If you have problems with condition, roll Diamond Skin elementalist. They won’t be able to kill you ever
Condition specs are bad for anything but solo/small group roaming.

Regarding PvE, I’m aware it’s only the elitist groups that kick condition builds. Still, direct damage is completely superior in 99% of PvE content. However, the Watchknights were actually the worst example you could have brought up. The damage amplification on the conditions phase only counted if a condition was on the watchknight, with zero regard for strength. Most professions have a “bleed on crit” trait (and frequently, it’s a Minor trait), Vulnerability and Cripple get stacked as part of numerous auto-attacks. Guardians can’t help but apply burning. Nearly max output was achieved through accident, rather than some dedicated condition players. Heck, condition builds were best to sit the whole event out because they were worse than useless for half the fight and getting overridden anyway by the power builds for the other half.

As for WvW roaming, the D/P thief is still the most common roamer. P/D presence is a fraction of the Power thieves. Engineers could be running almost anything (Power, condition, hybrid) and Warriors are more often Axebow right now than S/S condi. You may notice the condition builds more, but they are, in fact, still the minority.

And for what you described with condition build playstyle, that’s not “condition build,” That’s “ranged.” Longbow rangers and Rifle Warriors do the same while condi engineers usually run bomb kit, so are forced to melee (same as S/S Warriors).

Raven.9603:

Currently condi mesmers and necros are the kings of 1v1

this game is not, and never will be, a 1v1 game. your argument is completely invalidated.

if you choose to play 1v1, and lose to a necro or mesmer with conditions, it is working as intended. condi specs mostly gear for sustain/survival and condi dmg. it is balanced around group play.

stop trying to force the game to do something it isn’t meant to do, and complain about it afterwards.

Nano.3706:

You say, that Condi Meta is NOT out of control in different aspects of the game?
(non-blobbing-wvw)

The only place a condi meta exist. Is in WvW roaming.

Condi’s are useless in dungeons over a power build
They aren’t run in Tpvp
and in Zergs they are cleansed as soon as they are applied.

So…
What’s the problem if this only works in one NON SUPPORTED aspect that the players came up with in game?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Regarding PvE, I’m aware it’s only the elitist groups that kick condition builds. Still, direct damage is completely superior in 99% of PvE content. However, the Watchknights were actually the worst example you could have brought up. The damage amplification on the conditions phase only counted if a condition was on the watchknight, with zero regard for strength. Most professions have a “bleed on crit” trait (and frequently, it’s a Minor trait), Vulnerability and Cripple get stacked as part of numerous auto-attacks. Guardians can’t help but apply burning. Nearly max output was achieved through accident, rather than some dedicated condition players. Heck, condition builds were best to sit the whole event out because they were worse than useless for half the fight and getting overridden anyway by the power builds for the other half.

As for WvW roaming, the D/P thief is still the most common roamer. P/D presence is a fraction of the Power thieves. Engineers could be running almost anything (Power, condition, hybrid) and Warriors are more often Axebow right now than S/S condi. You may notice the condition builds more, but they are, in fact, still the minority.

And for what you described with condition build playstyle, that’s not “condition build,” That’s “ranged.” Longbow rangers and Rifle Warriors do the same while condi engineers usually run bomb kit, so are forced to melee (same as S/S Warriors).

That still doesn’t change anything about PVE, PVE is a for fun and story, no one really cares if it’s lesser than a a power build unless they’re speed running so it’s pointless to state that. Also it’s much worse to run a Clerics build with a staff guardian than a condi damage build. The point about The Watchknights is if there was solely only direct damage the fight would have been really slow, when the condition phase comes up you notice the pick up in speed. Though this doesn’t change for the marionette where conditions were also useful. Even the new mobs Mordrem foes, the husks are better dealt with conditions.

Might be server based but a large percentage of thieves i see in WvW are P/D condi thieves, and I know they’re condi theives just by the fact that they steal to me I get 5 stacks of confusion, and a chunk of my health gone which means he’s also running mug. Along with the fact i get interrupted more confusion,a nd when i hit him/her it’s 3 stacks, and i’ve seen these thieves pack D/P on the second set for on demand stealth with BP+ HS.

Engies that run hybrid run rifle, and most pure condi specs run P/Sh and you can easily find out what build they run based on the burn damage, 500+ Means they’re hybrid, 800+ Is condition build.Most roaming condi engineers run torment sigil as well. Warrior Axe/Sword LB is more found in Spvp rather than WvW roaming, just by the fact Axe/Bow has no mobility at all. At most it’s a dueling build in OS. In which case it’s a hybrid build with might stacking.

The playstyle is for the majority of condition builds, Engineer, PU condi mesmer, P/D thief that steals in and shadow steps out with the 3 skill for torment, Condi trap ranger, Necro condi is dual ranged weapons with AoE. Are you telling me none of these are ranged playstyle with application and surviving? Engi survive pretty kitten well with great sustain, and bomb kit is easy to use, drop them and run while the melee person chases you until he breaks off and then you switch back to ranged. So a majority of condi specs are ranged playstyle. Zerker longbow ranger is a perfect example of a ranged playstyle and Rifle warrior as well, if you close in on them there’s not much they can do except try to distance themselves from you halting dps, before trying to range you again because glass cannon.

What I was getting at is that you were talking about the playstyle as if it were somehow a “condition” playstyle. It isn’t. It’s a ranged playstyle adopted just as much by Power builds as Condition.

ANet has been making good progress on making general mobs much more condition-friendly. Then they make bosses like the recent Shadow of the Dragon who become ten times harder if you don’t have burst damage because of the very limited time you have to actually hurt him (and before he cleanses all conditions, btw). Or bosses like the Watchknights where for half the battle, presence of conditions was important, but the conditions themselves weren’t. When you have the entire mob getting an additional 20% damage (yeah, bet you forgot those bosses had a debuff that increased the direct damage they took by 2% per condition on them during that phase) plus vulnerability stacks (so +50% damage if multiplied seprately, +45% if multiplied together), of course that section will comparably fly by. This was not a condition-friendly boss. Even on the marionette, conditions were of questionable usefulness. The strongest point was the 5th phase where Epidemic necros could make the fight much easier, but really any heavy AoE would do it.

And no, Clerics build staff Guardian is much preferred in most PvE content over condition builds due to the sheer strength of Empower. 12 stacks of Might AoE is very desirable regardless of the stats behind it.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

What I was getting at is that you were talking about the playstyle as if it were somehow a “condition” playstyle. It isn’t. It’s a ranged playstyle adopted just as much by Power builds as Condition.

ANet has been making good progress on making general mobs much more condition-friendly. Then they make bosses like the recent Shadow of the Dragon who become ten times harder if you don’t have burst damage because of the very limited time you have to actually hurt him (and before he cleanses all conditions, btw). Or bosses like the Watchknights where for half the battle, presence of conditions was important, but the conditions themselves weren’t. When you have the entire mob getting an additional 20% damage (yeah, bet you forgot those bosses had a debuff that increased the direct damage they took by 2% per condition on them during that phase) plus vulnerability stacks (so +50% damage if multiplied seprately, +45% if multiplied together), of course that section will comparably fly by. This was not a condition-friendly boss. Even on the marionette, conditions were of questionable usefulness. The strongest point was the 5th phase where Epidemic necros could make the fight much easier, but really any heavy AoE would do it.

And no, Clerics build staff Guardian is much preferred in most PvE content over condition builds due to the sheer strength of Empower. 12 stacks of Might AoE is very desirable regardless of the stats behind it.

Fair enough, however, Cleric guardian hits like a wet noodle, and eles and warriors bring much more might stacking in longer durations than a staff guardian who’s empower has to be channeled for 2 and a half seconds for 10s duration of might(without boon duration). cleric guard with staff AA mashing is not going to contribute more than a condition build full Condi damage build. Especially if it’s things like dredge with protection, or high armor mobs and bosses. You can also take for the LS achievements instances with Mordrem husks where you’re basically hitting those things for nothing. Condition specs will perform and contribute much better than a cleric’s staff guard.

My problem with condition specs is how easy they are to play, and how forgiving they are to any player.

Seriously, I played my condi engineer for a couple hours just to see what’s what, and you just faceroll anything. In harder fights, I had so many skills (3-kit) to use that I could quite easily adjust to every situation.

It get’s worse, PU mesmer. That spec is the living dead in this game. You literally don’t have to do anything smart to beat 90% of all players out there. For the other 10%, you stealth up. After the patch, this spec will be such a disease, it’s hard to comprehend how Anet thinks in this regard. No amount of condition clears will allow anything to live long enough against this in 1v1.

But it does not end here. Longbow+s/s warrior, P/D thief, terror necro, condiranger, all incredibly easy specs (and yes, I have playtested them all in tPvP). Sure, they don’t add enough to a serious teamfight to become meta. These are just specs that are way too easy to play, and offer much to high of a reward. They are just much too forgiving if you compare them to the higher DPS specs that are forced to be full glass.

People saying that condispecs need more sustain because the conditions tick slower then power specs do are just masking the fact that they as players need more sustain, because their braindead condispecs don’t offer them enough already.

Saying that any arguments condisering 1vs1 or roaming is invalid cus devs don’t support this aspect of game is total bs. 1vs1 happens more often than just in roaming and shouldn’t not be overlooked just because condi specs are still useless in other game modes due to either technical issues (condi stack limit) or due to lack of dev’s attention.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

And I am quite serious on Soldier’s gear out-damaging Dire. Look around, I’m sure you can find some of the numerous tests.

Well, then you are most welcome to post a video of yourself rolling over condi specs with soldiers gear. I am sure you’ll find some p/d thief out there willing to test it with you.

@Cygnus
They do need some extra sustain but not as much as dire gives. That’s why the older gear for condi specs have either toughness or vitality on them. Dire is the result of dev’s being lazy to actually improve same basic issues with condi builds, giving players dire and +40% condi duration food was the easiest option how to attract players to condi builds.

There is no condition meta, not even in wvw roaming. Every facet of this game has a majority of power-based builds in it.

So either do something the previous 59x we’ve seen a thread like this couldnt, and that is show some actual evidence. Because so far its all a lot of hypothetical and anecdotal stuff

Raven.9603:

Because the introduction of perplexity runes, power creep applying both more cover conditions and more damaging conditions to more classes. condition food, and gear that was not in the game at launch (dire, apoth, etc) has gradually (though thoroughly) surpassed the introduction of new cleanses to deal with those conditions. Currently condi mesmers and necros are the kings of 1v1 because there is not enough condi removal in the game to effectively combat them.

Then how come that once you look past the little group doing 1v1 duels in a remote corner of WvW, condi builds are virtually absent from any format of play?

Maybe because they’re really really weak and need all the help they can get? 1v1 is not a supported game format and – as it would appear to be – quite intentionally so!

- Necro can just transfer conditions, meaning this is a buff to condi necro

- Engi will be hard countered by condi mesmer post patch (FACT) anyway. They’re also most vulnerable to conditions, so that defensively this would help them too.

You’re welcome forums.

Cygnus.6903:

My problem with condition specs is how easy they are to play, and how forgiving they are to any player.

Seriously, I played my condi engineer for a couple hours just to see what’s what, and you just faceroll anything. In harder fights, I had so many skills (3-kit) to use that I could quite easily adjust to every situation.

It get’s worse, PU mesmer. That spec is the living dead in this game. You literally don’t have to do anything smart to beat 90% of all players out there. For the other 10%, you stealth up. After the patch, this spec will be such a disease, it’s hard to comprehend how Anet thinks in this regard. No amount of condition clears will allow anything to live long enough against this in 1v1.

But it does not end here. Longbow+s/s warrior, P/D thief, terror necro, condiranger, all incredibly easy specs (and yes, I have playtested them all in tPvP). Sure, they don’t add enough to a serious teamfight to become meta. These are just specs that are way too easy to play, and offer much to high of a reward. They are just much too forgiving if you compare them to the higher DPS specs that are forced to be full glass.

People saying that condispecs need more sustain because the conditions tick slower then power specs do are just masking the fact that they as players need more sustain, because their braindead condispecs don’t offer them enough already.

tPvP or hotjoin? I’d believe the latter. You can generally faceroll with anything in hotjoin.

Tell you what, if you’re so confident that it’s not the spec that needs the survivability, but the player, try out a Rampager’s build for a while and let me know how you do. There’s a reason that gearset is practically unused.

Carighan.6758:

Then how come that once you look past the little group doing 1v1 duels in a remote corner of WvW, condi builds are virtually absent from any format of play?

Maybe because they’re really really weak and need all the help they can get? 1v1 is not a supported game format and – as it would appear to be – quite intentionally so!

I absolutely would not argue that condi’s need more help in large group wvw and all of pve. AOE shout cleansing renders too many specs useless, and stack limitations on bosses are problematic, and both of these issues heavily influence lopsided group composition.

As far as 1v1 being an “unsupported game format”; 1v1 happens in WvW whenever you are not with the fail blob. It happens in sPvP whenever you are off point. It is one of the most common experiences in the game. While many balance changes are made with group fights in mind, many are not.

Was the Dhuumfire nerf made because necro’s were too strong in group fights, or was it made because they were too strong when up against anyone, whether roaming in wvw or off point in sPvP or in a team fight?

Was the Skullcrack nerf made because warriors were too strong in group fights, or was it made because it was too strong when up against anyone?

Was the Beastmastery nerf made because rangers were too strong in group fights, or was it made because it was too strong when up against anyone?

If we took the time to list out every change Anet has made to balance classes that were OP in 1v1 situations the list would get very long very quickly. 1v1 is supported because it is a common occurrence across all areas of play, regardless of its niche status for roamers and duelists.

Conditions are already countered by the game itself.

The problem with conditions in GW2 is that they essentially gave them to all classes. That in my opinion was a mistake. They should have been the main damage option for 1 or 2 classes and that’s it. Instead we have 8 classes in the game we are trying to balance with power builds/condi builds/hybrid builds across sPvP/WvW/and PVE. It has made things overly difficult to balance.

I know some would say that it’s good for build diversity but it’s not. Contrary you end up forcing people to spec into specific builds in an effort to deal with conditions. To me the game would have been a whole hell of a lot easier to balance with only 1 or 2 classes focused on conditions and everyone else being power based.

I smell strong Xzibit from the topic.

“Hey! We heard you like conditions, so we made new condition which would affect other conditions so people not using conditions could use that condition against conditions used by others using conditions”.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

tPvP or hotjoin? I’d believe the latter. You can generally faceroll with anything in hotjoin.

Tell you what, if you’re so confident that it’s not the spec that needs the survivability, but the player, try out a Rampager’s build for a while and let me know how you do. There’s a reason that gearset is practically unused.

You can believe w/e you want bud.

You do hit the nail on the head here though. There is a reason Rampager is not used. It’s because condition specs don’t need power or precision to do well.

Depending on the class, I invest into vitality as far as nessecary to not get instaganked when up against glass cannons. Other then that, all rabid. I get insane condition pressure on my enemy with such a set-up (Dire+Rabid).

Now try using Knights+Soldiers. You will fail.

i’ve been saying it for along time but they should remove the condi cap but make condis mitigatable, this would be a win for everyone.
(obviously the healing reduction from poison would need to be capped at what it is now, but the damage could still stack)

the PVEers could finally use condi specs for world bosses/dungeons without overwriting eachothers damage.
and in PVP we will be able to spec like a bunker without condis ignoring our mountain of toughness and armour.