Guild Wars 2

I just had my most frustating night in PvP ever.

It was literally AI Wars. Numerous matches with two to three AI profs, MM Necro and Turret engi.

As a thief that plays exclusively D/P and refuses to play anything else, they hard counter me. I get it cool, I’ll fight on other points or coordinate when in team queue.

When coordinating these builds are average at best, but when just trying to relax and have some fun at the end of the weekend before work starts up tomorrow, it’s literally the most infuriating game experience I’ve ever had. Rage quitting was on my mind, but that wouldn’t have been fair.

If these builds are what the average players are supposed to play in order succeed then PvP in this game has failed.

Why make something effective enough to dominate uncoordinated teams, but make it unviable in a coordinated setting.

More importantly PvPers want to play players, not PvE. Why ever make AI viable in PvP? There is absolutely no reason to mix AI builds and non-AI builds in the same environment. AI vs non-AI should never be at a state where AI is a viable option for the general playerbase to use in Player vs Player games. These builds are like Acro thieves, they play an entirely different game especially vs uncoordinated teams. The fact that they shouldn’t be and don’t seem to be viable in coordinated play, is alone enough for anyone to question why these builds even exist in the form that they do.

I know there’s only about 25,000 players who team queue with any regularity, thank the leaderboards for sharing that info (jumping from the 25th percentile to the top 1000, the tooltip shows a rank increase of 20,000 ranks), but why would you allow any of that 25k population to think it’s okay to use AI builds in a Player vs Player mode.

tl;dr
I’m frustrated and QQing on the forums.

I’m hard countered by AI builds, I was playing with uncoordinated teams in team queue, I was vsing teams with 2-3 AI builds, the AI was killing my team’s players and myself.

Getting a coordinated team would have effectively hard countered these teams, and wouldn’t have been fun anyways.

There’s no just no fun in winning against or losing to AI in a PvP environment.

/end_qq

There’s nothing innately different about running “AI” than there is having signets, passive procs, blah blah blah (except that minions bug out all the time and those don’t, go figure). All they need to do is swap some of their passive strength over to their active abilities and we’re good to go.

Bhawb.7408:

There’s nothing innately different about running “AI” than there is having signets, passive procs, blah blah blah (except that minions bug out all the time and those don’t, go figure). All they need to do is swap some of their passive strength over to their active abilities and we’re good to go.

The concepts are similar but the game impact is different.

AI absorb cleave for one.

They can be used to block projectiles for another.

They add difficulty into tabbing through targets for yet another.

The impact of an AI on health pools is also very different than a passive 180 precision from a signet.

It normally doesn’t matter to me, but playing in an uncoordinated team queue vs AI is really what put me over edge with my QQ. I can take loosing to players who coordinate, but coordinated AI builds vs an uncoordinated team just makes me frustrated.

Shockwave.1230:

The concepts are similar but the game impact is different.

AI absorb cleave for one.

They can be used to block projectiles for another.

They add difficulty into tabbing through targets for yet another.

The impact of an AI health pools is also very different than a passive 180 precision from a signet.

It normally doesn’t matter to me, but playing in an uncoordinated team queue vs AI is really what put me over edge with my QQ. I can take loosing to players who coordinate, but coordinated AI builds vs an uncoordinated team just makes me frustrated.

Yes, those are all reasons to run the builds. Builds are supposed to have strengths (all those things listed) and weaknesses (they can be killed, kited, etc.), AI builds just happen to be more visible.

Literally all that needs to happen to make AI builds absolutely fine and no more or less skill-based or annoying than any of the other stuff that’s run is to take significant amounts of their damage and/or utility and put it onto their actives (in the case of spirits/turrets/minions, spirit weapons have other issues and other summons aren’t viable builds).

If the player is using their own skill through smart and active use of their abilities, then why does it matter if that ability manifests itself as a living creature (which you can kill or kite, completely unlike other abilities) or as just a visual effect. I get the frustration, but it is no different than facing a team of (insert one of infinite annoying combos that happens to counter my build).

haha yep i was probably playing with you that premade team was annoying. it was actually 3 experimental turret engies. 1 mm necro and 1 fear spam necro. There was no way to recap anything unless we zerged one person. yet another turret engi just takes it place. It was a brutal match to play in and just watching everyone bounce around.

Bhawb.7408:

Shockwave.1230:

The concepts are similar but the game impact is different.

AI absorb cleave for one.

They can be used to block projectiles for another.

They add difficulty into tabbing through targets for yet another.

The impact of an AI health pools is also very different than a passive 180 precision from a signet.

It normally doesn’t matter to me, but playing in an uncoordinated team queue vs AI is really what put me over edge with my QQ. I can take loosing to players who coordinate, but coordinated AI builds vs an uncoordinated team just makes me frustrated.

Yes, those are all reasons to run the builds. Builds are supposed to have strengths (all those things listed) and weaknesses (they can be killed, kited, etc.), AI builds just happen to be more visible.

Literally all that needs to happen to make AI builds absolutely fine and no more or less skill-based or annoying than any of the other stuff that’s run is to take significant amounts of their damage and/or utility and put it onto their actives (in the case of spirits/turrets/minions, spirit weapons have other issues and other summons aren’t viable builds).

If the player is using their own skill through smart and active use of their abilities, then why does it matter if that ability manifests itself as a living creature (which you can kill or kite, completely unlike other abilities) or as just a visual effect. I get the frustration, but it is no different than facing a team of (insert one of infinite annoying combos that happens to counter my build).

Besides the differences mentioned above, there’s the additional issue of managing the pressure that numerous damage sources apply.

There’s also the fact that it’s not player vs player, it’s player vs player plus numerous AI.

I don’t care as much when I’m playing in coordinated teams that steamroll AI based builds, but It’s not enjoyable either, it lacks satisfaction.

Valtarius.8671:

haha yep i was probably playing with you that premade team was annoying. it was actually 3 experimental turret engies. 1 mm necro and 1 fear spam necro. There was no way to recap anything unless we zerged one person. yet another turret engi just takes it place. It was a brutal match to play in and just watching everyone bounce around.

Did that one have 4 AI builds? I miscounted then. They’d never be able to rotate effectively with that many turret builds, and the minions are a bit slow to migrate too.

The main problem I have with AI builds is the passive play it encourages. It needs so little player input to be effective and the pressure on the enemy is so great, it’s far too rewarding. I spectated a MM necro the other day and he literally didn’t use his dodge key a single time, yet he was still able to perform really well and ended with a high score in the pvp match. Something is wrong if just a build can carry you that far.

I am annoyed by AI builds too, especially MM and turret engie. However, I do not think it’s an error of the builds, but of how sPvP works. In WvW they are no issue to me, but in sPvP I have to get on this point, where all the AI is waiting to hit away on me.

Imo AI builds should be viable, but currently some of them (by far not all) are a bit over the top when it comes to defending the point. On the other hand, running my Warrior with Hammer + Axe/Shield wrecks the AI quite quickly. In the end it seems to be a build vs build issue. I also fought once a staff elemntalist. No idea how he managed to do, what he did, but he was AoE damage bursting all over the place while surviving the onslaught of several player He never had issues with our engineer…

Shockwave.1230:

refuses to play anything else

stop playing pvp

Shockwave.1230:

…

“Hi, I play class that easy couter all others, except few specs. So I have no fun when they kill me, pls nerf them and I will be happy.”

Shockwave.1230:

More importantly PvPers want to play players, not PvE. Why ever make AI viable in PvP? There is absolutely no reason to mix AI builds and non-AI builds in the same environment. AI vs non-AI should never be at a state where AI is a viable option for the general playerbase to use in Player vs Player games. These builds are like Acro thieves, they play an entirely different game especially vs uncoordinated teams. The fact that they shouldn’t be and don’t seem to be viable in coordinated play, is alone enough for anyone to question why these builds even exist in the form that they do.
/end_qq

AI damage = physical variant of conditions. You can clear condie, you can kite or kill AI (sure if your IQ > AI)

Because maybe some of us like to have a mini army to command?

I dont want active damage, I want passive damage. Thats why I take AI, I like passive play, that is fun for me, AI builds are a defensive fighter, you have to go into them to take them on. I like this style of play, I enjoy putting the fight on my terms. now if this was team death match? Ai builds would be garbage junk that wouldnt do anything. cause I wouldnt be able to kill you if you just ran away, you dont have to fight me. its why turrets dont work in WvW, you dont have to fight, you can just run away.

long story short,dont hate the player, dont hate the build. Hate the game that is so bogged down and so varientless that you can even come to hate these builds.

I see Both sides of the coin on this one. Sometimes it’s fun to have an army that grows and grows until it can’t be stopped. And sometimes it’s fun to be one player versus an army and wade through rivers of corpses, and to walk out the victor.

Having played PvP in this game for some time, it is very reasonable to beat any AI build. Granted there are bad match ups based on your build but knowing/playing the builds that you struggle to fight will give you an uncanny advantage on the field.

This being said, when I do go up against a Skilled Minion Master Necromancer on most builds that arnt traited for Bunkering, I can make very little mistakes where “AI” builds have much less pressure on the player to preform immaculately. This is not an issue that can be quick fixed by just adjusting a few numbers unfortunately.

All in all, I would like to see a little more player controlled input into the minion of this game. If for nothing else just to feel more rewarding to the player. I think players should have the freedom to make every/any/all builds they can think of. But when I play Turret Engineer (or any “AI” build) I find even the heated fights are not very enthralling and my victories feel unsatisfying. This is just my opinion.

Where as playing predator games as a thief versus another thief for control over a point can yield some very invigorating and rewarding battles win or lose.

I honestly wouldn’t even mind the addition of more minions, or minions that make more minions. As controversial as that may be, but I would likely leave the game if they didn’t stream line the targeting/UI for minions as well as if they made these minions not require skilled decision making or veteran profession timing to maximize their potential.

This, of course is just from my experience as a PvP player.

Okaishi.8320:

The main problem I have with AI builds is the passive play it encourages. It needs so little player input to be effective and the pressure on the enemy is so great, it’s far too rewarding. I spectated a MM necro the other day and he literally didn’t use his dodge key a single time, yet he was still able to perform really well and ended with a high score in the pvp match. Something is wrong if just a build can carry you that far.

Based on what I am reading here, it appears you do not actually know how they work at all. For any damage or effects outside of that of a very basic and low damage auto attack, players must activate various skills and actions with summon creatures, with the exception of mesmers.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Okaishi.8320:

The main problem I have with AI builds is the passive play it encourages. It needs so little player input to be effective and the pressure on the enemy is so great, it’s far too rewarding. I spectated a MM necro the other day and he literally didn’t use his dodge key a single time, yet he was still able to perform really well and ended with a high score in the pvp match. Something is wrong if just a build can carry you that far.

Based on what I am reading here, it appears you do not actually know how they work at all. For any damage or effects outside of that of a very basic and low damage auto attack, players must activate various skills and actions with summon creatures, with the exception of mesmers.

Those “Active” AI plays are extra benefits on top of the what AI already does, and aren’t even factored into any power points discussed for AI builds in this thread up until now.

bring a turret build to the point anytime, and never use the overcharge. You will get destroyed every time.

An engineer has no weapons swap. They will have very very limited active damage, no condition removal at all, and very weak damage from the turrets.

You appear to be making statements with little to know experience in the profession.

dancingmonkey.4902:

bring a turret build to the point anytime, and never use the overcharge. You will get destroyed every time.

An engineer has no weapons swap. They will have very very limited active damage, no condition removal at all, and very weak damage from the turrets.

You appear to be making statements with little to know experience in the profession.

This one seems defensive about turrets

Well yeah. My stance is defending turrets. Combine that with your statements being somewhat impractical and unrealistic, I simply made an applicable statement.

Admittedly, it is a hard counter against thieves and mesmers (rangers as well but we all know it’s broke right now), unless your team rotates properly.

I understand the frustration and it’s like the same issue with dealing with thieves and eles that destroy your treb. If they keep destroying it, does it mean that I keep repairing it?

Had a team fight yesterday. 2 Mesmer, MM necro and me as an engi vs 1 mesmer, MM necro, normal necro and spirit ranger on the other side. That was not funny. So much AI