Guild Wars 2

Good afternoon forums,

After much debate, I have come to the realization that there tends to be a total misuse and complete interchange between these two very different concepts, so I would like to clear things up. First let me clear another thing;

Mechanics: How something works, it is an unique thing that has its own inner working. Not limited to a class mechanic, but rather an abstract concept. Examples: weapon switching, stealth, clones, cooldowns, initiative, tethers vs skill shots, how an specific skill might work, etc.

Numbers: The scaling and base damage of skills or traits.

Now, to the main thing:

OP : Short for Overpowered. This term in MMOs is usually refereed to a certain class who posses a certain skill or collection of skills/trait that make a very strong and unfair combination. It involves both mechanics and numbers, although not necessary have to be mechanics, usually it involves only numbers Those that have number issues are easy to fix by twinkling the numbers. Those that involve the mechanics are a little harder.

Toxic : Skills that involve around a one-sided mechanic that can be frustrating to both the attacker and the defender. Not necessarily have to be OP, in fact, most of them arent. They create great amount of grieving and usually the only one that gains any joy out of it is the user

Now lets put that into other words.

Lets put an example of OP (and I will exaggerate all points to make the point clear)

> Imagine a hammer warrior came at you and hit you with his entire combo and you died in second skill due to the damage. Second round you somehow managed to dodge part of it and lived, retaliated but HS heals him 3000 per second, so anything you do to him goes away, 3 seconds later he repeats the combo and you died.

In this case we have a number OP problem. By reducing the amount of damage of the hammer, the healing done by the HS and increasing CD on the skill you achieve balance.

Now a Toxic example:

> A skill that allows you to take a persons health from 100% to 50% (7/10 times) and 100%-0% (3/10 times) without any hopes of blocking it, or even seeing it, but in exchange you die a second later to the team. This is an example of toxic. You see, most often than not the person will live, but those that dont live 30% of the time will have a very frustrating time, while 30% of the time the enemy will get an incredible pleasure that only he can enjoy. Because of this he is losing the game, but because the toxic behavior’s rewards are greater than anything else, he will continue to do this, even if it isnt OP.

As you can see, this is toxic, perhaps inst winning games, heck, it might even be losing the games, but it creates great amount of frustration and can be purposely used to grief. A good example is grabbing a fishing rod and a fear cone in crab toss and just perma spamming it on someone. You wont win but you will get great pleasure of making someone’s life unbearable.

So next time you see someone complaining about some skill/class/trait ask your self this: Is this skill Op or toxic? Can we fix it with numbers or is it a mechanical problem Whats the fun vs frustration ratio here? Whats the disparity between givers and receivers’ enjoyment? Is this OP and toxic, or just Op, or just toxic?

tl;dr Sorry for the long read, I guarantee you it will be worth it

I totally agree OP just has lost it’s meaning. I posted this on the engi forums but this is how it is on the gw2 forums. Especially when it comes to WvW roamers of which I am one.

OP means its good at least according to the forums. You can’t have OK, or Balanced you have UP or OP. Your OP if you beat someone who has died to that class more then a few times, your UP if they always beat your class. Your a good player if they don’t think they should lose to you but they did. You have no skill if you beat them on a class they lose to often.

You can only be accepted in most peoples balance eyes if you play a bunker guardian that does no damage or you play a ranger. Everything else is OP people even want to say Ele is OP now because of strength Runes even though a warrior can put on those same runes.

I did see a thread about Engi and Ranger being OP so I guess now you can only be balanced as a Guardian. Which is funny because I would be willing to bet if they gave Guardian the slightest bit of soft CC to stay on a enemy people would call Meditation Guardians OP. Right now you can kite them all day so therefore people say they are balanced.

You needed to make another thread to essentially say the same things you’ve been saying in other threads repeatedly?

Clever thread, looks like it’s about one thing, reveals itself as another as you read,

Bowflex.4502:

You needed to make another thread to essentially say the same things you’ve been saying in other threads repeatedly?

Clever thread, looks like it’s about one thing, reveals itself as another as you read,

I too read between the lines!

I think reads something like: Thieves are toxic because stealth. Anet pls nerf stealth and make thief a free loot bag. I shouldn’t have to learn how to deal with this mechanic because that requires effort.

we’re at war! Don’t waste your time considering what is fair or toxic, your enemy sure wont be doing that!

Fortus.6175:

, I have come to the realization that there tends to be a total misuse and complete interchange between these two very different concepts, so

This is not even close to the worst for me. What drives me crazy, is when it it clear that posters are doing nothing more then regurgitating something other people posted, simply because they dislike it as well. When it is clear from something they suggest or added, that they do not even actually know, never compared it, or tested it, but talk about it as if it was cannon, simply because four other posters who never tested it or are not even familiar with it, said something that suits the the situation.

In a similar vein, I’d like to remind people that just because something can be countered doesn’t mean it’s not overpowered. You need to keep the balance of risk vs. reward in mind.

But having said that I fear I may have just reassured everyone that whatever they dislike is OP.

Good post (OP).

Sadly, yes, this is all about the toxicity of thieves. Probably the No. 1 reason why most players won’t go near PvP/WvW (Warrior OP being the second). And every thief in the game knows it and will post on forums like crazy to keep their toxicity fix. Just look how they reacted in GW1 forums when anyone dared suggest that perma was OP.

Not to worry though, ANet has it’s favored classes (and unfavored) and that isn’t going to change, ever.

This guy never gives up. Imagine if you spent that time fighting against thieves instead of QQIng on the forums.

a t s e.9614:

This guy never gives up. Imagine if you spent that time fighting against thieves instead of QQIng on the forums.

That requires effort though… it’s so much easier to ask for nerfs than it is to actually play the game and get better at it… uuuuuuggggghhhhhh

Sandpit.3467:

Good post (OP).

Sadly, yes, this is all about the toxicity of thieves. Probably the No. 1 reason why most players won’t go near PvP/WvW (Warrior OP being the second). And every thief in the game knows it and will post on forums like crazy to keep their toxicity fix. Just look how they reacted in GW1 forums when anyone dared suggest that perma was OP.

Not to worry though, ANet has it’s favored classes (and unfavored) and that isn’t going to change, ever.

What build and class do you play?

Sandpit.3467:

Good post (OP).

Sadly, yes, this is all about the toxicity of thieves. Probably the No. 1 reason why most players won’t go near PvP/WvW (Warrior OP being the second). And every thief in the game knows it and will post on forums like crazy to keep their toxicity fix. Just look how they reacted in GW1 forums when anyone dared suggest that perma was OP.

Not to worry though, ANet has it’s favored classes (and unfavored) and that isn’t going to change, ever.

If most players don’t pvp/wvw because of thieves, then why is there always a queue for wvw and why are there never any thieves there?

The only toxicity thieves bring is poison share…ba-zing!

Sandpit.3467:

Good post (OP).

Sadly, yes, this is all about the toxicity of thieves. Probably the No. 1 reason why most players won’t go near PvP/WvW (Warrior OP being the second). And every thief in the game knows it and will post on forums like crazy to keep their toxicity fix. Just look how they reacted in GW1 forums when anyone dared suggest that perma was OP.

Not to worry though, ANet has it’s favored classes (and unfavored) and that isn’t going to change, ever.

It isnt the first time that people quit. I have had lots of real life friends and guildies leave PvP altogether msotly because thieves and warriors. Regardless of their skill level (which they werent bad, they werent even losing most of the time, they were ust tired of the same old song and having to fight uphill battles where they actually were facing inherently stronger classes) I can vouch to this.

That aside, that is not the point of this thread, as some people are trying to imply. This thread is about what toxic and OP mean and their differences, since people cant definitely tell them apart. I used examples that most people could relate, such as warriors and thieves.

To assume this thread is about them is a mistake, this apply to all classes and builds, it is more of a PSA than anything.

Anyways, I hope we can analize things like grow ups here instead of having the same old 4 forum-thief come bash everyone.

oZii nailed it there /thread

Zero Day.2594:

oZii nailed it there /thread

How cute.

Sandpit.3467:

Good post (OP).

Sadly, yes, this is all about the toxicity of thieves. Probably the No. 1 reason why most players won’t go near PvP/WvW (Warrior OP being the second). And every thief in the game knows it and will post on forums like crazy to keep their toxicity fix. Just look how they reacted in GW1 forums when anyone dared suggest that perma was OP.

Not to worry though, ANet has it’s favored classes (and unfavored) and that isn’t going to change, ever.

Their day will come. It happened with Mesmers already. The only thing that is preventing Arena Net from nerfing thieves into the ground is that new players like it. But even this won’t sustain the class. Its only a matter of time before attacking with blind/against aegis causes reveal.

Lemme see if I’ve got this for the current pseudo meta:

Ele: Potato
Engy: OP
Guard: Potato
Mesmer: Toxic?
Necro: OP
Ranger: Potato
Thief: Toxic
Warrior: OP?

Potatos are either close to balance or unknown, I guess? I mean, eles aren’t really OP or Toxic, just kinda midline it seems. Guards have one or two tricks, but are still fairly simple like warriors, just without the same abilities.

Warrior has no mechanic to be toxic with, it’s just hit you in the face style stuff, Engy and necro are strongest condition classes atm, Ranger is on the upper or lower end, depending on who you ask and what they’ve fought.

Mesmer and thief would be what you consider toxic, PU and just about any thief build that uses stealth.

I get it all right by the op’s definitions?

Wait Creld… Are you implying the OP has a vendetta against the stealth mechanic? Shenanigans sir!

Reroll a ranger, use Sic ’Em. Problem solved.

stealth=balanced

stealth on a cooldownless combo finisher with cooldownless leap finisher=both OP and Toxic