Guild Wars 2

Quick and dirty observation and conclusion here.

Observation: Warriors have far more viable builds. I propose that this build variety comes from the fact that Warriors have 1) so many more weapon choices and 2) high base health and toughness. Other classes have very few choices and combinations comparatively, and less hp and toughness.

Conclusion: Instead of nerfing warriors build options, progress the game by adding more weapon opportunities to other classes and bringing base HP and Armor of low and medium professions closer to a warriors. I want to see this game go forward, not backwards or stagnant! I also want to be able to pick up other classes and have just as much fun with builds. I’m going to burn out on warrior at some point and want to play something equally as fun to change builds with.

Edited to entail my thoughts more clearly.

Everything about Warrior is pretty versatile. Unlike other classes, he doesn’t need to do something like take four traits just to make a weaponset useable. The natural tankiness of the class definitely helps with versatility too, though, since investing in defense becomes a little more of an option and not a necessity.

Aegael.6938:

Everything about Warrior is pretty versatile. Unlike other classes, he doesn’t need to do something like take four traits just to make a weaponset useable. The natural tankiness of the class definitely helps with versatility too, though, since investing in defense becomes a little more of an option and not a necessity.

lol, every viable warrior build needs to have atleast 20 in defense trait combined with 30 in last line and a longbow equiped so you can actually profit from your 20 point in defense traits and not waste it. and have ptv. or you are not viable in high level tournament play. ofc bunker is the only exception because they use warhorn.

Aegael.6938:

Everything about Warrior is pretty versatile. Unlike other classes, he doesn’t need to do something like take four traits just to make a weaponset useable. The natural tankiness of the class definitely helps with versatility too, though, since investing in defense becomes a little more of an option and not a necessity.

I totally agree. The class is well thought out and things tend to work together pretty well.

I think base hp and toughness should be brought closer together when considering all classes. I think the feel of warrior is good now. Low and Medium base HP and armor professions should be brought up some so there is not such a great difference.

That stuff aside, other classes just need more build options in general. I want to see more weapon skills for them to give them more tools to compete and have fun and unique builds.

To the other poster, there are plenty of builds that don’t use Cleansing Ire. Yes, it is a good skill, but not required in pve or even pvp/wvw depending on what you are running. And also, even though Longbow is my favorite weapon, there are many builds that do not use that either.

That said, I’d like to see other classes have more condition removal, since the meta is crazy with how fast people can load you up with them. I wouldn’t mind seeing a similar trait for other class mechanics such as Mesmer’s F4 (distortion), cleanse 1 condition per illusion shattered. Obviously other classes have similar options available.

petespri.6548:

That said, I’d like to see other classes have more condition removal, since the meta is crazy with how fast people can load you up with them. I wouldn’t mind seeing a similar trait for other class mechanics such as Mesmer’s F4 (distortion), cleanse 1 condition per illusion shattered. Obviously other classes have similar options available.

Mesmer does have a trait like that. They can trait so that for every shatter, they remove a condition.

Shatters just don’t come off cooldown as fast as burst skills do, and mesmers don’t do very much damage at all when built tanky.

Yeah, it’s just one condition though. Not a reliable, consistent cleanse.

It’s actually one per illusion for each shatter. It’s a very similar mechanic to Cleansing Ire, which cleanses a condition for every bar of adrenaline.

Simon.3794:

Aegael.6938:

Everything about Warrior is pretty versatile. Unlike other classes, he doesn’t need to do something like take four traits just to make a weaponset useable. The natural tankiness of the class definitely helps with versatility too, though, since investing in defense becomes a little more of an option and not a necessity.

lol, every viable warrior build needs to have atleast 20 in defense trait combined with 30 in last line and a longbow equiped so you can actually profit from your 20 point in defense traits and not waste it. and have ptv. or you are not viable in high level tournament play. ofc bunker is the only exception because they use warhorn.

You assume a PvP game mode. 30 points in the last line is NOT an ideal WvW build.

I agree that the vast difference in base HP is counter-productive to build diversity.

How can you attempt to balance a game when there is such a huge gap in base survivability?

Berserker Warriors are viable in WvW, despite certain limitations. Thieves as well, to and extent, thanks to stealth. But anything beyond that simply isn’t because you need a certain base-survivability in order to counter unpredictable damage.

I agree that Warriors should serve as a template for other classes too. Their traits are generally better and more universal instead of being pigeonholed into a specific build/play-style.

Dee Jay.2460:

I agree that the vast difference in base HP is counter-productive to build diversity.

How can you attempt to balance a game when there is such a huge gap in base survivability?

…

I agree that Warriors should serve as a template for other classes too. Their traits are generally better and more universal instead of being pigeonholed into a specific build/play-style.

Your first and last paragraphs really hit the nail on the head for how I feel about it now. Very well worded.

That’s really a great point that I hadn’t really thought about too much. The fact that warriors have such a high hp difference to other classes make it so that they don’t “have” to spec into more defense to survive. It’s an option rather than a necessity for a different build for a different role. The other one you mentioned about certain classes having a lot less weapons available meaning less skills also makes more builds less available. If certain classes base hp/toughness was increased as well as the amount of weapons they can use there would be a lot more options. Good point. I like it.

I disagree. Power Creep is a huge problem in this game. Warriors need to be brought in line with the other classes, not the other way around.

Neko.9021:

I disagree. Power Creep is a huge problem in this game. Warriors need to be brought in line with the other classes, not the other way around.

So we can instead have no classes with multiple viable builds?

Naw, I want other classes to have more options, like the warrior does.

petespri.6548:

Neko.9021:

I disagree. Power Creep is a huge problem in this game. Warriors need to be brought in line with the other classes, not the other way around.

So we can instead have no classes with multiple viable builds?

Naw, I want other classes to have more options, like the warrior does.

The reason we don’t have multiple viable builds is because of the incredible amount of Power Creep that exists. Soldiers Healing Signet Warrior with a Bow and the Soft CC that is Pin Down is the perfect class in almost every way.

I want you to remember that many metas ago, the big specter of “large damage” was a Shatter Mesmer. It was burst and it’d hurt a lot. Nowadays the Mesmer is largely regarded as the lowest damage of the “DPS Roamers” – Engies, Eles, Thieves, and Mesmers.

The game has not gotten better as sustainability and damage have increased. It’s become unbearably filled with “Tanky DPS” (a role that, of all things, Eles used to fill), as we now have Soldiers Hambow Warriors, Settlers Spirit Rangers, some terribly cheesy Necro that is either a nuclear ball of Conditions or a herd of Minions, and an Engi with a gigantic armor raiting with a Rabid or Cleric amulet and then a nonsense array of powerful passive traits (Transmutation, Backpack Regenerator, Automated Response, Protection Injection).

Everything needs to get nerfed. Damage needs to get nerfed, sustainability needs to get nerfed. Twitch reactions and the ability to land and time skills need to be rewarded while bad or mis-timed dodges or wasted cooldowns should be punished.

The Warrior in its current state is disgustingly overpowered. Players run in and face tank everything, then proceed to use the buffed-up Pin Down and use a bunch of CC moves off CD or poke with Bow, all with the benefit of a 5 second weapon swap to choose to do either. This is the way the class plays for both its Hammer Soldiers version or its Sword Condition version. Both are “different” and “diverse” and “viable”. Both are also completely grossly overpowered as both allow a Warrior to simply facetank an incredible amount of damage, and then proceed to do: spammable CC with burst slills, incredible melee DPS with Hammer or Swords, and then incredible burst Ranged DPS with Longbow.

I do not want more classes to have builds like these. I want the tanky-DPS Warrior builds to die and I want the tanky-DPS builds of all other classes to die as well. Power creep needs to die and so do all the low-skill builds it’s generated.

Actually the reason that Warriors have more build choices is that their skills are less active.

That is to say, their utility-abilities are very much based on synergy and supportive power. Shouts are essentially buffs/support. Banners are the same. Stances do the same. They are all one single category of skill. Same with Signets, actually.
Only Physical skills stand out as actually active utility skills.

And that’s where the variety comes from. Warriors cannot be balanced around assuming specific utility abilities because by and large, they provide very little “special” functionality.

Compared to teleports, combo fields, AE boonripping zones, reflection walls, condition-spreading, traps, weapon-kits, all those things.

Warriors are more “passive” in their utility.

Don’t forget, that warrior isn’t overpowered, just a bit overtuned, but they actually in a very good spot now with guardians. They just overshadows other classes and points out while they are underperforming.
Even if guardians for example aren’t as versatile as warriors and can’t use that many weapons (less choice = less diversity), but in their role they are beyond awesome.

My quick & dirty assessment of warrior versatility is that it’s based on

- large variety of weapons
- large variety of strong traits

Every class has “those traits” which are just awesome and make players feel that they’re mandatory. Warrior has Cleansing Ire and Dogged March (and others) for example. But they also have a really good spread of traits that can vastly change the gameplay focus. Other classes need that same trait variety and viability. Some professions like Ele, feel forced into certain traits because they’re so good as to be baseline for survival. Others have so many traits that are lackluster (guardian) or completely misplaced (ranger) that builds are strained.

petespri.6548:

Neko.9021:

I disagree. Power Creep is a huge problem in this game. Warriors need to be brought in line with the other classes, not the other way around.

So we can instead have no classes with multiple viable builds?

Naw, I want other classes to have more options, like the warrior does.

other classes have that option, however unlike warriors they have a weird option called “niche build”. Meaning you actually specialize in something to the degree where it is very strong in one aspect and crap in another. Warriors kinda lost this ability a long time ago.