Guild Wars 2

I can’t for the life of me wrap my head around it. Necromancers have been screaming for this since release, yet we still don’t have any cleave. Not on dagger, not on axe.

Please add Cleave to the necromancer. Our melee DPS will always be lacking compared to other classes, as long as we lack the ability to hit more than one target with our melee attacks.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleave

Almost every class has some form of Cleave attack. Please give the necromancer some love for a change.

Id just like to point out that its even more baffling when you look at how many necro skills and utilities are designed for close combat. Shorter range to melee range with increased potency when closer to the target. Wells are a frontline type of utility and many of the other utilities are low range or involve pulling people to melee (spectral grasp). DS is more effective when you are close to targets. The only 1200 range weapon we have is a staff which is more of a support weapon.

It makes no sense that the bruiser and more frontline version of the scholar classes is the only one without cleave. Not to mention with no decent escape, mobility or gap closers and a lack of defensive options we really should be much more potent in melee range. People should be genuinely afraid of our close ranger pressure.

Wtt engi cleave for something decent single-target.

I see no reason for a Necro to cleave.

Necros have plenty of AoE skills, and are more then competitive compared to other classes in every area of the game except dungeons.

Necros sustained aoe is terrible.

DHK.8406:

I see no reason for a Necro to cleave.

Necros have plenty of AoE skills, and are more then competitive compared to other classes in every area of the game except dungeons.

And yet elementalists are the kings of AoE and they have cleave. In fact, ANet went out of their way to turn Lightning Whip into a cleave weapon a long time ago, since they didn’t have one. Why hasn’t the same been done with necromancer?

Guess ANet worries that cleave + vampiric traits + DS = uber-bunker necro.

This seems to be the ANet necro balancing pattern since BW2 there about, where someone was apparently able to out-bunker the other team by using DS in some way.

Thus prompting the infamous Peters quote about learning to play DS soon after launch.

Except that thief with signet of malice already has cleave with lifesteal. And they havent nerfed that. And that heals for a lot more per hit. The burst heal when using pistol whip is very strong.

Make necro axe attack in a conal way (like a breath weapon, or the ele dagger fire auto) up to it’s current range, or perhaps a bit less less.

Why don’t necros have weapon based movement skills? Why don’t necros have more active defenses? Why don’t necros have more combo finishers?

digiowl.9620:

Guess ANet worries that cleave + vampiric traits + DS = uber-bunker necro.

This seems to be the ANet necro balancing pattern since BW2 there about, where someone was apparently able to out-bunker the other team by using DS in some way.

Thus prompting the infamous Peters quote about learning to play DS soon after launch.

I love how they affraid of what happened 2 years ago when nobody was experienced enough to counter things …

Roe.3679:

Why don’t necros have weapon based movement skills?

Necro’s design is to be slow juggernauts

Roe.3679:

Why don’t necros have more active defenses?

Death Shroud

Roe.3679:

Why don’t necros have more combo finishers?

Possibly because they do have plenty of combo fields.
I guess also ’cause few of the necro skills are whirls, leaps and projectiles. Which leaves blasts. And if warhorn shrieks are blast finishers (warrior, ranger), then anything is possible….

In regards to cleave:
Daggers dont cleave, and daggers are the only melee weapon necro has. Ranged single target attacks never cleave either. I think necro’s especially are designed around an idea of how they should be, rather than a balance perspective (which is not inherently bad).

Necromancers have a ton of AE in their marks and wells. You have several skills to AE conditions. You have a utility to spread conditions. You have a piercing staff. You can make Death Shroud #1 pierce.

Perhaps ANet feels this is enough AE for your class? I could see increasing damage on Staff #1, but I don’t think you need more AE or Cleave.

Atherakhia.4086:

Necromancers have a ton of AE in their marks and wells. You have several skills to AE conditions. You have a utility to spread conditions. You have a piercing staff. You can make Death Shroud #1 pierce.

Perhaps ANet feels this is enough AE for your class? I could see increasing damage on Staff #1, but I don’t think you need more AE or Cleave.

Necromancer has very poor sustained AoE. This reason alone makes them a poor choice for PvE.

digiowl.9620:

Guess ANet worries that cleave + vampiric traits + DS = uber-bunker necro.

This seems to be the ANet necro balancing pattern since BW2 there about, where someone was apparently able to out-bunker the other team by using DS in some way.

Thus prompting the infamous Peters quote about learning to play DS soon after launch.

being able to cleave may make our vampiric skills worth taking.

Doctor Orderly MD PhD DDS.7625:

Necro’s design is to be slow juggernauts

True.

Doctor Orderly MD PhD DDS.7625:

Death Shroud

Which is limited by life force.

Doctor Orderly MD PhD DDS.7625:

Possibly because they do have plenty of combo fields.
I guess also ’cause few of the necro skills are whirls, leaps and projectiles. Which leaves blasts. And if warhorn shrieks are blast finishers (warrior, ranger), then anything is possible….

Useless combofields mostly.
Also 2 whirl finisher, both on underwater weapons.
1 leap, only on underwater weapon.
Projectile finisher on staff#1 and on wurm and bone fiend.
Blast finisher only on staff#4 which is a bit unreliable by the nature of it and bone minions.

Doctor Orderly MD PhD DDS.7625:

Ranged single target attacks never cleave either.

They do splash damage to 5 target or pierce sometimes.

The amount of aoe we have justifies only why we dont have cleave, but that comes in bursts with long cooldowns (30s at least), while other classes can hit multiple targets 24/7 by auto attacks.

edit: I forgot another blast finisher. You know what? Thats on an underwater weapon too … Namely Frozen abyss.

Kravick.4906:

Atherakhia.4086:

Necromancers have a ton of AE in their marks and wells. You have several skills to AE conditions. You have a utility to spread conditions. You have a piercing staff. You can make Death Shroud #1 pierce.

Perhaps ANet feels this is enough AE for your class? I could see increasing damage on Staff #1, but I don’t think you need more AE or Cleave.

Necromancer has very poor sustained AoE. This reason alone makes them a poor choice for PvE.

No, the fact that a lot of the AE is condition is what makes the Necro bad for PvE. The only thing that really matters is single target boss DPS for almost all PVE encounters as it is. Perhaps Necro DPS is below par? Has anyone done the math on what your class’ single target DPS and ideal rotation is?

Atherakhia.4086:

Necromancers have a ton of AE in their marks and wells. You have several skills to AE conditions. You have a utility to spread conditions. You have a piercing staff. You can make Death Shroud #1 pierce.

Perhaps ANet feels this is enough AE for your class? I could see increasing damage on Staff #1, but I don’t think you need more AE or Cleave.

Wells are decent aoe but their CD is way too long so it’s more of bursting.

Marks are mostly for utilities and condition. Mark of blood does less dps than s/d.

Epidemic spreads whatever is on your target and that’s it. Any further condition applications are not transferred. So the spreaded bleeds in fact wear out fairly quickly.

Staff 1 is horrible damage.

Very hard to line mobs up in a line for you to take full effect of the DS1 pierce.

Atherakhia.4086:

Kravick.4906:

Atherakhia.4086:

Necromancers have a ton of AE in their marks and wells. You have several skills to AE conditions. You have a utility to spread conditions. You have a piercing staff. You can make Death Shroud #1 pierce.

Perhaps ANet feels this is enough AE for your class? I could see increasing damage on Staff #1, but I don’t think you need more AE or Cleave.

Necromancer has very poor sustained AoE. This reason alone makes them a poor choice for PvE.

No, the fact that a lot of the AE is condition is what makes the Necro bad for PvE. The only thing that really matters is single target boss DPS for almost all PVE encounters as it is. Perhaps Necro DPS is below par? Has anyone done the math on what your class’ single target DPS and ideal rotation is?

Yes and the single target dps is on the upper end. But it doesnt make the class worth taking over others. Cleave would definately make necro more favourable though. But it needs more than just cleave to improve its position in pve.

Afya.5842:

Atherakhia.4086:

Necromancers have a ton of AE in their marks and wells. You have several skills to AE conditions. You have a utility to spread conditions. You have a piercing staff. You can make Death Shroud #1 pierce.

Perhaps ANet feels this is enough AE for your class? I could see increasing damage on Staff #1, but I don’t think you need more AE or Cleave.

Wells are decent aoe but their CD is way too long so it’s more of bursting.

Marks are mostly for utilities and condition. Mark of blood does less dps than s/d.

Epidemic spreads whatever is on your target and that’s it. Any further condition applications are not transferred. So the spreaded bleeds in fact wear out fairly quickly.

Staff 1 is horrible damage.

Very hard to line mobs up in a line for you to take full effect of the DS1 pierce.

And I agree with all of this, but that doesn’t mean you’re lacking in AE. Just your power based options for AE are limited. Similar issues exist for Rangers for example.

When all is said and done, the AE is only a factor for trash and rarely for boss encounters. If Necros aren’t taken it’s probably because of the poor state of conditions in PvE (and the stigma that all Necros are condi spam) and their direct DPS may be below par.

Has anyone actually ran the numbers to see what the highest power based DPS rotation is for Necro? I’m just curious what the numbers look like.

spoj.9672:

Atherakhia.4086:

Kravick.4906:

Atherakhia.4086:

Necromancers have a ton of AE in their marks and wells. You have several skills to AE conditions. You have a utility to spread conditions. You have a piercing staff. You can make Death Shroud #1 pierce.

Perhaps ANet feels this is enough AE for your class? I could see increasing damage on Staff #1, but I don’t think you need more AE or Cleave.

Necromancer has very poor sustained AoE. This reason alone makes them a poor choice for PvE.

No, the fact that a lot of the AE is condition is what makes the Necro bad for PvE. The only thing that really matters is single target boss DPS for almost all PVE encounters as it is. Perhaps Necro DPS is below par? Has anyone done the math on what your class’ single target DPS and ideal rotation is?

Yes and the single target dps is on the upper end. But it doesnt make the class worth taking over others. Cleave would definately make necro more favourable though. But it needs more than just cleave to improve its position in pve.

I agree, but I don’t think cleave would mean anything to anyone to be honest. The lack of utility and not providing top tier damage (competetive with an ele or thief for example) is the larger issue.

If you don’t provide anything to a group then your damage must outshine the utility other classes bring to the group. If it doesn’t, why make room for a Necro when another class does more damage and brings something useful?

I think this is where ANet dropped the ball HARD for many classes in this game. There’s simply too much utility on classes like Warriors and Guardians and then you have nearly every other class in the game with barely anything and worse damage to boot.

Either the raw sustained needs to compete with thieves and Eles or you need utility to justify why your damage isn’t at that level. No one cares about AE outside of WvW to be honest.

Samhayn.2385:

digiowl.9620:

Guess ANet worries that cleave + vampiric traits + DS = uber-bunker necro.

This seems to be the ANet necro balancing pattern since BW2 there about, where someone was apparently able to out-bunker the other team by using DS in some way.

Thus prompting the infamous Peters quote about learning to play DS soon after launch.

being able to cleave may make our vampiric skills worth taking.

I use them… 30 in Blood Magic, always. Much survival, so lifesteal, wow.

Warcry.1596:

Samhayn.2385:

digiowl.9620:

Guess ANet worries that cleave + vampiric traits + DS = uber-bunker necro.

This seems to be the ANet necro balancing pattern since BW2 there about, where someone was apparently able to out-bunker the other team by using DS in some way.

Thus prompting the infamous Peters quote about learning to play DS soon after launch.

being able to cleave may make our vampiric skills worth taking.

I use them… 30 in Blood Magic, always. Much survival, so lifesteal, wow.

ok let me say it this way, it would be appealing for people to take that didn’t want to get the vampiric traits for pets. The vamipric minions is the really good one and is can be made better by vampiric precision and the 15 minor. The well siphon is “ok” but really only in pve.

The only necromancer melee weapon skill is dagger1, and only that could get cleave added. Then… cleaving dagger…
Anything else would need a change in mechanics in some way.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_historical_traits#Necromancer_traits

Necrotic dagger made me think … What if that ranged dagger would be the default (300ish range), but can be traited for cleave and you lose the range? Only question is where the hell you would put such a trait ..

Im willing to wait for when they add new weapons to classes. Which im purely guessing here but is probably one of the projects they will release with the big feature patch after the living story ends.

drkn.3429:

The only necromancer melee weapon skill is dagger1, and only that could get cleave added. Then… cleaving dagger…
Anything else would need a change in mechanics in some way.

Why not make the axe cleave instead?

Axe has no melee attacks.
It’s a melee weapon, but in game mechanic terms, it has ranged non-projectile skills (1, 2) as well as pbaoe (3). None of it is melee and thus susceptible to adding cleave as it works now in game as a whole.
In comparison, dagger1 is your default melee attack – 130 range, no projectile, works in front of you in 130 range with no target and regardless of your camera position (compare it to warrior’s axe1, and axe3, to differentiate between melee attack and ranged projectile, when it comes to camera-based no-target behaviour). And no dagger skills in game have cleave.

Axe would need a bigger overhaul than just adding cleave because, well, it can’t have cleave as it is implemented in the game. Someone mentioned making a cone attack out of axe1 similar to ele fire dagger1, or even a line, similar to ele water2. That might work, but it’s different than cleave.

Lets think beyond cleave then, as the very term seems to limit our thinking.

Honestly, from the outset of starting with a axe, and seeing that animation, i expected axe 1 (and perhaps 2) to have a slight AOE around the initial target.

The attack is after all a paw swipe delivered by way of “sympathetic magic” (think voodoo dolls and such). Said swipes could very well be savage enough to hit others nearby. This much like how elementalist Water Blast have a small AOE heal.

I imagine it would be a nightmare for the programmers to add cleave based on what the axe and dagger animations look like.
I do agree that cleave would be a huge benefit to all while not really buffing the class to extremes.

Stand The Wall.6987:

I imagine it would be a nightmare for the programmers to add cleave based on what the axe and dagger animations look like.
I do agree that cleave would be a huge benefit to all while not really buffing the class to extremes.

I’m not so sure about that, but then again I could be wrong. They added cleave to the elementalists Lightning Whip without changing a thing with its animation.

I see no reason axe can’t cleave. So what if it isn’t melee?

I can think of a simple reason: The staff.

It’s the AE weapon, with all 5 abilities able to hit multiple targets, and four of them using the same targeting mode.

Carighan.6758:

I can think of a simple reason: The staff.

It’s the AE weapon, with all 5 abilities able to hit multiple targets, and four of them using the same targeting mode.

And if it were any good at that role, then you’d see more necromancers using it for that role. Sadly, its a piece of crap when it comes to actual damage, regardless of how you try to trait it.

Kravick.4906:

I’m not so sure about that, but then again I could be wrong. They added cleave to the elementalists Lightning Whip without changing a thing with its animation.

I can’t guess at how much work tweaking an animation is. But I’d be fine with them adding a radial aoe for the axe, like the Lightning Whip. It would make sense to me.

reikken.4961:

I see no reason axe can’t cleave. So what if it isn’t melee?

Axe is already range… making it cleave also is a terrible idea

how is that a terrible idea
ranged = cleave impossible? I don’t understand the logic

Cleave is already a limited range. It’s basically an aoe attack. Why couldn’t an axe cleave? It’s not like the cleave would get the range of the axe all of a sudden. You have to look at it the other way around. Single target range remains the same, but an extra Cleave range is added.

reikken.4961:

how is that a terrible idea
ranged = cleave impossible? I don’t understand the logic

Can i have a ranged 100b also?

necro is already very strong in duels.. making it cleave also will dominate pvp/wvw
And soon we all see necro’s doing cleave damage on range..

If you’re trying to suggest that axe is already extremely strong and that adding cleave to it would push it over the top, then… I would have to strongly disagree!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Cleave is already a limited range. It’s basically an aoe attack. Why couldn’t an axe cleave? It’s not like the cleave would get the range of the axe all of a sudden. You have to look at it the other way around. Single target range remains the same, but an extra Cleave range is added.

Because axe issnt a melee weapon for necro’s…
Like i say, can i have 100b on ranged also?

There is a difference between cleave and aoe damage.
Cleave is in melee range (130) aoe is on aoe skills that are balanced around it..
Some AoE skills does high damage but cant be spammed
Some AoE skills does low damage but can be spammed

Making a melee weapon that does high damage on 1 target is “OK” making it cleave is “OK” if its in melee range also.. making it cleave AND on ranged (melee) weapon is very bad design..

nicknamenick.2437:

Making a melee weapon that does high damage on 1 target is “OK” making it cleave is “OK” if its in melee range also.. making it cleave AND on ranged (melee) weapon is very bad design..

Obviously the cleave itself would not be ranged, that’s what I keep saying. The Cleave effect would be the same range as for any other weapon.

Just make axe a conal attack. Or do nothing and give necro sword/greatsword eventually.

Wouldn’t be easier and make more sense to just add cleaving to Dagger autoattack?

Axe is ranged, so it’s not going to happen and new weapons are even less probabile.

AndrewSX.3794:

Wouldn’t be easier and make more sense to just add cleaving to Dagger autoattack?

It would be just as easy, but not more or less. Since the axe is a weapon you would logically swing, it makes more sense for the axe to hit multiple targets than the dagger.

AndrewSX.3794:

Axe is ranged, so it’s not going to happen and new weapons are even less probabile.

Why do people keep going on about the axe being ranged? Why can’t a (limited) ranged weapon have a short range cleave effect in front of the user?

Perhaps make the Axe Auto cleave In a way that shortens the range and operates similar to that of the spear?

Keep 2 and 3 as is.

just change the range and hit box for the auto?

or,

I am all for dagger cleaving. Or I am all for a sword of some type.

I think personally it would be easiest to just make the dagger cleave. by giving us a new weapon would be cool. but that is a ways out for us as they would have to make new weapons for everyone. Changing the hit box for Dagger auto like they did for the Ele’s lighting whip would be a good thing,

Give axe splash damage if you hate the idea of cleave.

spoj.9672:

Im willing to wait for when they add new weapons to classes. Which im purely guessing here but is probably one of the projects they will release with the big feature patch after the living story ends.

How about a trait that allows you to turn the staff into a melee weapon? (battle scythe, not unlike the one used by Evies in Vindictus). We would have the axe for close range, and the scythe for melee cleave. (and if they could give us some combos with the auto attack that would be way beyond awesome… sigh, i enjoy vindictus combat so much… )

Why i cant cleave with dagger thief ? why oh why ?

Karolis.4261:

Why i cant cleave with dagger thief ? why oh why ?

I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not. What is being asked for here is essentially an equivalent to sword. There is precedent for a basic AoE cleave auto on daggers though, see lightning whip.

I’ve always felt that both necromancers and mesmers need a 3 hit chain aoe cleave melee weapon. Mesmer sword isn’t bad, but the third hit has always been problematic since it’s single target (like guardian mace, and probably others I’m not thinking of atm)