Guild Wars 2

Nerf or Remove dire gear.

Is a problem, have a lot of survival and high condition dps, +40 condition duration food, the build is extremely OP.
With the critical dmg nerf, these builds will be invincible when fighting versus dps users.

Mesmers roaming with dire and PU, Enginners with dire and perplexity, much op.

I believe it is good to give attention to this problem.

Sorry for my bad english, i used google tradutor to help me.

i run dire gear with apoth trinkets. yeah it makes you tanky, thats the point. counter it with hard zerk build.

The Problem is Not dire gear, its the bufffood.

The problem is there’s no stat to counter condition damage.

Discordia.7293:

Nerf or Remove dire gear.

Is a problem, have a lot of survival and high condition dps, +40 condition duration food, the build is extremely OP.
With the critical dmg nerf, these builds will be invincible when fighting versus dps users.

Mesmers roaming with dire and PU, Enginners with dire and perplexity, much op.

I believe it is good to give attention to this problem.

Sorry for my bad english, i used google tradutor to help me.

erm this is a little selfish. sry. u want to nerf dire because YOU have a problem in ROAMING in WVW. i run dire in zergs and no its not op. i die as much as a pvt gear user does. dire is good for me and especially in this cc meta dire helps u to survive a little longer than 2 seconds.
at least im not geting 2shot by thieves anymore on my light armor classes. and again u guys all are overreacting because of the 10% nerf. seriously! mesmers core condition was nerfed by 50% percent and u guuys are still crying over confusion. confusion…if u have more than 5 stacks stooop attacking and u dont die.simple.
stop mashing buttons when u have confusion on u. confusion doesnt even hurt that much anyways. but i assume u are a glass thief. well mix some pvt in your berserker armor and bring condi cleanser. in zergs condis are not such a problem at all as the zerg heals condis very quickly

Remove. Not think boutit, remove.

And the +/- 40% food too.

Silhouette.5631:

The problem is there’s no stat to counter condition damage.

yes there is many many many of them. why do u think i had to swap my dire for pvt and go full power on my mes? condis dont hurt anymore. the zerg just cleanses it in seconds.what class are u playing?

wvw is about battles and not roaming. therefore asking about nerfs because u got problems at roaming is quiet selfish. wvw= large battles=zergs=zergbusting groups=and siege and wvw has space for roamers too. its not wvw=roaming maps for single players and epic duels wvw is not 1v1=wvw is OPEN for 1v1 and duels

Flumek.9043:

Remove. Not think boutit, remove.

And the +/- 40% food too.

I use that food but honestly I wish I didnt have to. If they removed the +ve and -ve condition foods I’d be so happy.. its sad looking at all the food I could be using like might on dodge.. or HP regen.. or more stats.. but nope. I have to use the condition duration once because if I dont, anyone running the -ve condition duration will throw my conditions off as it they were never there.

Yeah, it’s not particularly the gear, but it exacerbates the problem. The numbers on the +/- condition food is just plain off when you compare it to all the other duration modifying food. It’s just a typo that never got fixed.

Enenion.8127:

The fact that the devs said on the livestream that they won’t introduce Dire stats to sPvP tells volumes about what they think of the set for WvW. If it’s too strong to introduce it in sPvP it’s even worse in WvW where you can get +40% condi duration food.

Yea they were all laughing about it. It is funny how stupid it is.

just getting this out here, A necro is still going to bust your face in with conditions and bunker your kitten with toughness even if you take away dire. they problem isnt dire, its people not utilizing condi clears. they are a second healing skill in this meta

ryan.6217:

just getting this out here, A necro is still going to bust your face in with conditions and bunker your kitten with toughness even if you take away dire. they problem isnt dire, its people not utilizing condi clears. they are a second healing skill in this meta

As you should, if people don’t counter it then they should get hurt. On the flip side condi users should get smacked around if they can’t kite properly like every other DPS class.

Diamond skin says hi

selan.8354:

Discordia.7293:

Nerf or Remove dire gear.

Is a problem, have a lot of survival and high condition dps, +40 condition duration food, the build is extremely OP.
With the critical dmg nerf, these builds will be invincible when fighting versus dps users.

Mesmers roaming with dire and PU, Enginners with dire and perplexity, much op.

I believe it is good to give attention to this problem.

Sorry for my bad english, i used google tradutor to help me.

erm this is a little selfish. sry. u want to nerf dire because YOU have a problem in ROAMING in WVW. i run dire in zergs and no its not op. i die as much as a pvt gear user does. dire is good for me and especially in this cc meta dire helps u to survive a little longer than 2 seconds.
at least im not geting 2shot by thieves anymore on my light armor classes. and again u guys all are overreacting because of the 10% nerf. seriously! mesmers core condition was nerfed by 50% percent and u guuys are still crying over confusion. confusion…if u have more than 5 stacks stooop attacking and u dont die.simple.
stop mashing buttons when u have confusion on u. confusion doesnt even hurt that much anyways. but i assume u are a glass thief. well mix some pvt in your berserker armor and bring condi cleanser. in zergs condis are not such a problem at all as the zerg heals condis very quickly

Not only for me, but Rabid and Carrion is powerfull for high survive and cond spamm. Dire is ridiculous, like a god mode. If u use PTV, you never kill a enemy. WvW is a large world and can be played in various ways, not only in zergs.

Imagine when nerf the critical damage.

ryan.6217:

just getting this out here, A necro is still going to bust your face in with conditions and bunker your kitten with toughness even if you take away dire. they problem isnt dire, its people not utilizing condi clears. they are a second healing skill in this meta

This problem is a condition duration and enemy survive. Exemple: one burn hits half life, if remove, enemy put again in 1s. (i’m not warrior, i dont have a perm regen).

Silhouette.5631:

The problem is there’s no stat to counter condition damage.

Yes there is, it’s called vitality. If you want you can also get food to reduce the conditions even more so, or even bring a condition cleanse!

Discordia.7293:

selan.8354:

Discordia.7293:

Nerf or Remove dire gear.

Is a problem, have a lot of survival and high condition dps, +40 condition duration food, the build is extremely OP.
With the critical dmg nerf, these builds will be invincible when fighting versus dps users.

Mesmers roaming with dire and PU, Enginners with dire and perplexity, much op.

I believe it is good to give attention to this problem.

Sorry for my bad english, i used google tradutor to help me.

erm this is a little selfish. sry. u want to nerf dire because YOU have a problem in ROAMING in WVW. i run dire in zergs and no its not op. i die as much as a pvt gear user does. dire is good for me and especially in this cc meta dire helps u to survive a little longer than 2 seconds.
at least im not geting 2shot by thieves anymore on my light armor classes. and again u guys all are overreacting because of the 10% nerf. seriously! mesmers core condition was nerfed by 50% percent and u guuys are still crying over confusion. confusion…if u have more than 5 stacks stooop attacking and u dont die.simple.
stop mashing buttons when u have confusion on u. confusion doesnt even hurt that much anyways. but i assume u are a glass thief. well mix some pvt in your berserker armor and bring condi cleanser. in zergs condis are not such a problem at all as the zerg heals condis very quickly

Not only for me, but Rabid and Carrion is powerfull for high survive and cond spamm. Dire is ridiculous, like a god mode. If u use PTV, you never kill a enemy. WvW is a large world and can be played in various ways, not only in zergs.

Imagine when nerf the critical damage.

ryan.6217:

just getting this out here, A necro is still going to bust your face in with conditions and bunker your kitten with toughness even if you take away dire. they problem isnt dire, its people not utilizing condi clears. they are a second healing skill in this meta

This problem is a condition duration and enemy survive. Exemple: one burn hits half life, if remove, enemy put again in 1s. (i’m not warrior, i dont have a perm regen).

err i wear full pvt gear on my mes as i run with a zergbusting group, but i do roam with that and kill. dire i used in zergfights when i was running condi mes. i also have 2 rabid sets and a berseker set for pve. dire just made me die less in massive zergfights but it is not op at all.i meet a lot of condi engis and yes they are strong but they are not the ones killing me, its the power based engis that destroy me and yes condi necros kill me and condi thieves. but dire on mes is not a problem and i think dire is not a problem either.
in wvw after all there are melandru runes and -condi food

Discordia.7293:

Dire is ridiculous, like a god mode.

This doesn’t make sense.

What profession do you play that you use this gear in a condition build on? I am going to guess you do not even own a set of this gear, thus have no idea what it is or isn’t capable of. If you did, you would know that 33% of the conditions applied come from a combination of about 5% runes, 5% sigil procs, and 23% from traits that proc conditions on critical hits.

I call shenanigan, because without the critical damage of rabid or the direct power damage of carrion, dire gear doesn’t do near the damage. To call it “god mode” to me, is rather comical.

Silhouette.5631:

The problem is there’s no stat to counter condition damage.

Person that makes no sense meet the wiki

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_removal#Skills_that_remove_conditions

Wiki, met person that makes no sense.

You two should spend some time together, perhaps you can become friends.

The only profession that makes really good use of Dire gear are P/D thieves, who are by FAR the less damaging, but still viable, condition spec in WvW roaming. Every other condition based class has to invest a lot in Precision to get a decent Critical Chance, used to proc conditions (like Bleeding or Burning).
Condi Mesmers, Condi Necros, Condi Engineers, Condi Rangers and, to an extent, even Condi Warriors, need at least 30-35% base Critical Chance, which is about 500-600 Precision. Dire gear is usually used to add some much needed Vitality against other condition users, but that’s just it.
I don’t think that Dire is overpowered at all. Rather, I would be happy if every roaming class in WvW started using Full Dire gear: that would mean a far weaker condi pressure, and even with a higher health pool they would eventually go down.

Dire gear would be ridiculously OP in PvP, where Condition users are mainly used for bunkering. Dire Spirit Rangers or Dire Engineers would be a complete PITA to fight against.

It’s important to note that The game shouldn’t be balanced around WvWvW, at least in such major changes as removing an entire armor spec. If it was we wouldn’t see anything but zerkers running around there too since people complain about soldiers/dire/any survivability a lot.

also

Domey.9804:

The Problem is Not dire gear, its the bufffood.

This is a major major factor. Buff food doesn’t really have a place in WvWvW and really throws out specific balance factors.

hihey.1075:

The only profession that makes really good use of Dire gear are P/D thieves, who are by FAR the less damaging, but still viable, condition spec in WvW roaming. Every other condition based class has to invest a lot in Precision to get a decent Critical Chance, used to proc conditions (like Bleeding or Burning).
Condi Mesmers, Condi Necros, Condi Engineers, Condi Rangers and, to an extent, even Condi Warriors, need at least 30-35% base Critical Chance, which is about 500-600 Precision. Dire gear is usually used to add some much needed Vitality against other condition users, but that’s just it.
I don’t think that Dire is overpowered at all. Rather, I would be happy if every roaming class in WvW started using Full Dire gear: that would mean a far weaker condi pressure, and even with a higher health pool they would eventually go down.

Dire gear would be ridiculously OP in PvP, where Condition users are mainly used for bunkering. Dire Spirit Rangers or Dire Engineers would be a complete PITA to fight against.

SwSW/LB Warriors don’t really need any precision from armor to stack bleeds, burn, torment, and poison on swap. Whatever precision you get from your traits and trinkets is more than enough to be a serious threat. Dire just makes you so much harder to kill while still keeping some pretty insane condition damage.

Yes there is, it’s called vitality. If you want you can also get food to reduce the conditions even more so, or even bring a condition cleanse!

Pretty much this.

Discordia.7293:

Nerf or Remove dire gear.

It’s the condtion version of Soldiers. If you belive Dire is too tanky, then so is Soldiers. It won’t help though, because you can mix and match gear anyway.

With the critical dmg nerf, these builds will be invincible when fighting versus dps users.

If condition damage becomes a problem, you should spec more removal. You can cut the effect of conditions after they have been applied, giving you a much better chance to use them effectively then with general DPS mitigation. Imagine there were blocking skills that you could use after you’d been hit hard to reduce the damage to a quarter.

frans.8092:

Discordia.7293:

Nerf or Remove dire gear.

It’s the condtion version of Soldiers. If you belive Dire is too tanky, then so is Soldiers. It won’t help though, because you can mix and match gear anyway.

Physical damage requires power, precision and crit damage to do maximum damage. PVT requires sacrificing crit chance and damage for tank. What exactly do you need to sacrifice with dire?

Substance E.4852:

frans.8092:

Discordia.7293:

Nerf or Remove dire gear.

It’s the condtion version of Soldiers. If you belive Dire is too tanky, then so is Soldiers. It won’t help though, because you can mix and match gear anyway.

Physical damage requires power, precision and crit damage to do maximum damage. PVT requires sacrificing crit chance and damage for tank. What exactly do you need to sacrifice with dire?

You are not giving the complete picture here. Physical damage gives you the option to increase the damage beyond which is given by Power alone. You have the choice to gear up in Soldiers, or Berserker.

Physical damage scales with power, condition damage with, condition damage. Physical damage has further attributes that enhance it, multiplying it, in precision and critical damage. Condition Damage has no such stat. It can only be enhanced through duration increases which has it’s own direct counter.

Condition Damage gear outside Dire is just plain bad, Rabid is useless as it stacks Precision with Condition Damage and Toughness. While the latter two are fine, precision adds nothing noteworthy to a condition build, critical are poor damage without power and crit procs simply don’t add enough to make up for the loss of a stat – which is why most crit sigils are dirt cheap. Carrion is reasonable, but vitality is not the best defensive stat, especially in Wvw and Power may be hard to make a contribution in a condition build. And those are your option for condition damage, Dire, Rabid and Carrion and only one of those has no lost stats.

Julie Yann.5379:

hihey.1075:

The only profession that makes really good use of Dire gear are P/D thieves, who are by FAR the less damaging, but still viable, condition spec in WvW roaming. Every other condition based class has to invest a lot in Precision to get a decent Critical Chance, used to proc conditions (like Bleeding or Burning).
Condi Mesmers, Condi Necros, Condi Engineers, Condi Rangers and, to an extent, even Condi Warriors, need at least 30-35% base Critical Chance, which is about 500-600 Precision. Dire gear is usually used to add some much needed Vitality against other condition users, but that’s just it.
I don’t think that Dire is overpowered at all. Rather, I would be happy if every roaming class in WvW started using Full Dire gear: that would mean a far weaker condi pressure, and even with a higher health pool they would eventually go down.

Dire gear would be ridiculously OP in PvP, where Condition users are mainly used for bunkering. Dire Spirit Rangers or Dire Engineers would be a complete PITA to fight against.

SwSW/LB Warriors don’t really need any precision from armor to stack bleeds, burn, torment, and poison on swap. Whatever precision you get from your traits and trinkets is more than enough to be a serious threat. Dire just makes you so much harder to kill while still keeping some pretty insane condition damage.

Well, they do have a trait which procs Bleeds on crits, but I agree that Precision is not really needed on condi warriors – and that’s why I said “to an extent” in my previous post.
Still, Condi Warriors are going to get their OP Pin Down nerfed, so assuming a 1v1 situation (and condi warriors are only good at 1v1) they will be way less powerful.
The only problem with Condi Warriors is the Pin Down and the Impale: that’s how they put condi pressure on you. If you manage to avoid at least one of those, you will be fine.
Even now, I have 0 problems with them as my Mesmer (NOT PU) or my Thief. Still having to find one with my Engineer and Ranger though :P
Of course this is not considering tPvP, in which Settler Banner Regen Condi Warriors are disgustingly hard to take down.

frans.8092:

Condition Damage gear outside Dire is just plain bad, Rabid is useless as it stacks Precision with Condition Damage and Toughness. While the latter two are fine, precision adds nothing noteworthy to a condition build, critical are poor damage without power and crit procs simply don’t add enough to make up for the loss of a stat – which is why most crit sigils are dirt cheap. Carrion is reasonable, but vitality is not the best defensive stat, especially in Wvw and Power may be hard to make a contribution in a condition build. And those are your option for condition damage, Dire, Rabid and Carrion and only one of those has no lost stats.

You are completely wrong actually.
Precision is absolutely mandatory to Engineers and Necromancers, as they need it for the “Burn on Crit” procs, which are the only way of putting condi pressure on your opponent. Rangers too need it in order to have a reliable way of applying conditions, because of the 66% chance of applying Bleed on crit (which is a must for SB rangers).
Mesmers are the same as Rangers, since they need their clones to proc Bleeds on crits.

I don’t think you understand what makes a condition class viable. I’ll try to explain it to you in a quick way:
A condition spec needs 2 things:
1) Access to a condi spike. This will be what makes you kill your opponent. Condi spikes are represented by:
a) burning (Engineer and Necros have it thanks to On crit procs)
b) 5+ stacks of torment in a single attack
c) 6+ stacks of bleed in a single attack
d) Terror (Necro only)
e) 5+ stacks of confusion
Condi spikes are the “trump card” of condition specs. It is what they absolutely need to actually kill an opponent.

2) Easy access to damaging conditions. This is usually represented by having bleed on your auto attack (Thief, Engineer, Necro). Mesmers (thanks to clones) and Rangers (with SB) can still easily apply 2-3 stacks of bleeds thanks to bleed on crit trait.

As I previously stated, the only classes which really does not need Precision are Thieves and Warriors.
Any Engineer, Necro, Mesmer or Ranger in full Dire gear will either lose access to their condi spike (Engineers mostly) or to their “shaving” bleeds (Rangers/Mesmers).
I have fought full Dire Engineers, full dire Mesmers and full Dire Necros, and believe me, they were absolutely easy to take down because they simply did not put enough damaging conditions on me to take me down. You will not kill anyone with bleeds alone, and you will not kill anyone with condi spikes only, unless you are facing a class with close to none condition removal.

Mind me: I am not saying that Dire gear is good for this game – the fact that it is a no-no in the PvP area is enough to say that it is not.

hihey.1075:

frans.8092:

Condition Damage gear outside Dire is just plain bad, Rabid is useless as it stacks Precision with Condition Damage and Toughness. While the latter two are fine, precision adds nothing noteworthy to a condition build, critical are poor damage without power and crit procs simply don’t add enough to make up for the loss of a stat – which is why most crit sigils are dirt cheap. Carrion is reasonable, but vitality is not the best defensive stat, especially in Wvw and Power may be hard to make a contribution in a condition build. And those are your option for condition damage, Dire, Rabid and Carrion and only one of those has no lost stats.

You are completely wrong actually.
Precision is absolutely mandatory to Engineers and Necromancers, as they need it for the “Burn on Crit” procs, which are the only way of putting condi pressure on your opponent. Rangers too need it in order to have a reliable way of applying conditions, because of the 66% chance of applying Bleed on crit (which is a must for SB rangers).
Mesmers are the same as Rangers, since they need their clones to proc Bleeds on crits.

So they wouldn’t be running Dire then and removing it wouldn’t affect the threat they might pose.

A condition spec needs 2 things:…As I previously stated, the only classes which really does not need Precision are Thieves and Warriors.

So, every other class but Thief and Warrior is not running Dire on their condition builds? And removing Dire would only remove their, already not so impressive, condition options?

Any Engineer, Necro, Mesmer or Ranger in full Dire gear will either lose access to their condi spike (Engineers mostly) or to their “shaving” bleeds (Rangers/Mesmers).

I have fought full Dire Engineers, full dire Mesmers and full Dire Necros, and believe me, they were absolutely easy to take down because they simply did not put enough damaging conditions on me to take me down.

So what is the problem with Dire then???

Mind me: I am not saying that Dire gear is good for this game – the fact that it is a no-no in the PvP area is enough to say that it is not.

There’s also a cap on crit damage in PvP – and the game modes are quite different, much smaller groups.

hihey.1075:

frans.8092:

Condition Damage gear outside Dire is just plain bad, Rabid is useless as it stacks Precision with Condition Damage and Toughness. While the latter two are fine, precision adds nothing noteworthy to a condition build, critical are poor damage without power and crit procs simply don’t add enough to make up for the loss of a stat – which is why most crit sigils are dirt cheap. Carrion is reasonable, but vitality is not the best defensive stat, especially in Wvw and Power may be hard to make a contribution in a condition build. And those are your option for condition damage, Dire, Rabid and Carrion and only one of those has no lost stats.

You are completely wrong actually.
Precision is absolutely mandatory to Engineers and Necromancers, as they need it for the “Burn on Crit” procs, which are the only way of putting condi pressure on your opponent. Rangers too need it in order to have a reliable way of applying conditions, because of the 66% chance of applying Bleed on crit (which is a must for SB rangers).
Mesmers are the same as Rangers, since they need their clones to proc Bleeds on crits.

I don’t think you understand what makes a condition class viable. I’ll try to explain it to you in a quick way:
A condition spec needs 2 things:
1) Access to a condi spike. This will be what makes you kill your opponent. Condi spikes are represented by:
a) burning (Engineer and Necros have it thanks to On crit procs)
b) 5+ stacks of torment in a single attack
c) 6+ stacks of bleed in a single attack
d) Terror (Necro only)
e) 5+ stacks of confusion
Condi spikes are the “trump card” of condition specs. It is what they absolutely need to actually kill an opponent.

2) Easy access to damaging conditions. This is usually represented by having bleed on your auto attack (Thief, Engineer, Necro). Mesmers (thanks to clones) and Rangers (with SB) can still easily apply 2-3 stacks of bleeds thanks to bleed on crit trait.

As I previously stated, the only classes which really does not need Precision are Thieves and Warriors.
Any Engineer, Necro, Mesmer or Ranger in full Dire gear will either lose access to their condi spike (Engineers mostly) or to their “shaving” bleeds (Rangers/Mesmers).
I have fought full Dire Engineers, full dire Mesmers and full Dire Necros, and believe me, they were absolutely easy to take down because they simply did not put enough damaging conditions on me to take me down. You will not kill anyone with bleeds alone, and you will not kill anyone with condi spikes only, unless you are facing a class with close to none condition removal.

Mind me: I am not saying that Dire gear is good for this game – the fact that it is a no-no in the PvP area is enough to say that it is not.

Condition rangers run apoth/dire (obviosly no dire in spvp) with s/d-a/t. You can easily stack bleeds with axe2, dagger5 and geo sigils. You also get fair superior CC than on the SB.

Substance E.4852:

Condition rangers run apoth/dire (obviosly no dire in spvp) with s/d-a/t. You can easily stack bleeds with axe2, dagger5 and geo sigils. You also get fair superior CC than on the SB.

That build’s problem is that it is too much melee centered. Most condition builds are ranged because you need to kite your opponent.
Even if Axe2 is ranged, you need to stay melee to get the most out of it. Torch is decent is sPvP (I run it on my Ranger in PvP), but every decent player will know how to deal with it.
All in all, the build you mentioned is certainly strong, but the added Vitality provided by Dire is needed in that build, because they trade the innate survivability of ranged condition users with a riskier melee combat.

With the upcoming changes to condi Warriors (Pin Down nerf) and without any buff to Thief’s P/D specs, I’d say that Dire gear is perfectly fine in WvW. I am using some Dire pieces on my SB/Sw+D Ranger and Engineer engi too, but only after I reached at least 33% Critical Chance. So that would mean that I get around 1500 HP from Dire Gear overall.

Of course, this is assuming CURRENT meta. With the change to Critical Damage, some condition builds will be even stronger in WvW roaming (such as Engineers and Rangers).

hihey.1075:

Substance E.4852:

Condition rangers run apoth/dire (obviosly no dire in spvp) with s/d-a/t. You can easily stack bleeds with axe2, dagger5 and geo sigils. You also get fair superior CC than on the SB.

That build’s problem is that it is too much melee centered. Most condition builds are ranged because you need to kite your opponent.
Even if Axe2 is ranged, you need to stay melee to get the most out of it. Torch is decent is sPvP (I run it on my Ranger in PvP), but every decent player will know how to deal with it.
All in all, the build you mentioned is certainly strong, but the added Vitality provided by Dire is needed in that build, because they trade the innate survivability of ranged condition users with a riskier melee combat.

With the upcoming changes to condi Warriors (Pin Down nerf) and without any buff to Thief’s P/D specs, I’d say that Dire gear is perfectly fine in WvW. I am using some Dire pieces on my SB/Sw+D Ranger and Engineer engi too, but only after I reached at least 33% Critical Chance. So that would mean that I get around 1500 HP from Dire Gear overall.

Of course, this is assuming CURRENT meta. With the change to Critical Damage, some condition builds will be even stronger in WvW roaming (such as Engineers and Rangers).

I don’t think you have ever actually used the Natures voice build if you think the setup suffers from a lack of survivability.
I have also never had problems hitting people with either bonfire (which is massive when traited) or torch throw so I don’t know where that is coming from.

Just a heads up to those who say all you need to do to counter tanky condi builds is bring condi removal…
Remember when skullcrack/cc warriors were a problem? And all the warriors were saying things like ‘lol, just use a stunbreak/bring stability’. Thats you, right now.

Substance E.4852:

hihey.1075:

Substance E.4852:

Condition rangers run apoth/dire (obviosly no dire in spvp) with s/d-a/t. You can easily stack bleeds with axe2, dagger5 and geo sigils. You also get fair superior CC than on the SB.

That build’s problem is that it is too much melee centered. Most condition builds are ranged because you need to kite your opponent.
Even if Axe2 is ranged, you need to stay melee to get the most out of it. Torch is decent is sPvP (I run it on my Ranger in PvP), but every decent player will know how to deal with it.
All in all, the build you mentioned is certainly strong, but the added Vitality provided by Dire is needed in that build, because they trade the innate survivability of ranged condition users with a riskier melee combat.

With the upcoming changes to condi Warriors (Pin Down nerf) and without any buff to Thief’s P/D specs, I’d say that Dire gear is perfectly fine in WvW. I am using some Dire pieces on my SB/Sw+D Ranger and Engineer engi too, but only after I reached at least 33% Critical Chance. So that would mean that I get around 1500 HP from Dire Gear overall.

Of course, this is assuming CURRENT meta. With the change to Critical Damage, some condition builds will be even stronger in WvW roaming (such as Engineers and Rangers).

I don’t think you have ever actually used the Natures voice build if you think the setup suffers from a lack of survivability.
I have also never had problems hitting people with either bonfire (which is massive when traited) or torch throw so I don’t know where that is coming from.

I honestly can’t remember the last time I’ve been hit by a Torch throw, the projectile is so low that it almost calls for a dodge. Keeping your distance against an Axe/Torch ranger is the key.
Still, the amount of good rangers I see in WvW is close to 0. I have only seen one, and that was in the Obsidian Sanctum. While roaming, everyone was either running a GC build (against which my Thief and Mesmer laugh at) or was an upleveled :P

My point still stands though: in the current WvW meta, Dire is balanced.

P.S: I don’t really get why the OP included “PvE” in the title, as I really don’t know what’s the problem with Dire in PvE o.O

Why is this directed at PvE? Is OP seriously trying to say condition builds are overpowered in PvE?

…Really?

As for WvW, I don’t get it. PVT = power version of Dire. Condition builds do need some precision for the bleed on crit sigil + minor trait. Not all condimancers use this, sure, but that’s their choice, just as using PVT is a power build’s choice. Condimancers not using any precision will apply less bleeds. That’s balanced, imo.

Domey.9804:

The Problem is Not dire gear, its the bufffood.

Exactly this. The food is just as problematic in other gear setups. In fact, many such food buffs are. The -40% Expertise is problematic, too.

The buff-food is the main offender. Until it’s removed/rebalanced we can’t objectively kitten Dire gear.

40% Condition duration is the equivalent of +400 Power or +40% Crit-Damage in terms of item budget. But we have neither.

Dee Jay.2460:

40% Condition duration is the equivalent of +400 Power or +40% Crit-Damage in terms of item budget. But we have neither.

It’s actually much stronger even, because conditions can often have binary checks in their duration. Example:
Someone is running after me. I have 5 seconds until their leap comes off CD, if I am still in range they’ll get me. I’d need to cripple them for 4 seconds to get out of range, but my cripple only lasts 3 seconds. I have 20% duration from traits.
The buff food would completely change the fight, because it pushes Cripple over an important “breakpoint”. At this point the fight changes, I no longer temporarily get distance, I actually escape the fight.

I think food/non-boon effects need a look at in general. Many of them are too strong, while others are way weak.

I think there should be three groups of effects:

• “Simple” stats. Always 1 offence + 1 defence, alternatively 2 offence or 2 defence but then less of each. Celestial gives all but only quite little.
• Percentual stats. Relatively small amount, from 5% to 10%, later versions also give a direct stat corresponding to their percentage (Precisions for Prowess-food, Malice for Expertise-food, Compassion for Concentration-food).
• “Special” foods. These would be varied, might on dodge, +classstat, etc.

Domey.9804:

The Problem is Not dire gear, its the bufffood.

Consumables keeps throwing wrenches into the game mechanics…

Dire gear…godhood? Oh you poor poor fool. Conditions do crap against anybody with a constant source of condition removal, making Dire pretty crappy when the conditions can’t do a thing. It’s the Soldier’s of conditions, and pretty worthless in WvW IMO.

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3603504

Full condi Dire Tank going down in 4-5 seconds with full LF (27k hp + 16k LF hp, 2.8k armor)

so tell me again how this is op?

Brando.1374:

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3603504

Full condi Dire Tank going down in 4-5 seconds with full LF (27k hp + 16k LF hp, 2.8k armor)

so tell me again how this is op?

So 15+ people jumped on a Necro who was gathering flowers in the OS and downed him in 5 seconds. Seems a nice to way to prove anything.

Brando.1374:

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3603504

Full condi Dire Tank going down in 4-5 seconds with full LF (27k hp + 16k LF hp, 2.8k armor)

so tell me again how this is op?

Yeah… What Hihey said… I am not sure a guy being downed in <5 seconds when an entire guild jumps on him at the same time really proves anything o.O

Brando.1374:

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3603504

Full condi Dire Tank going down in 4-5 seconds with full LF (27k hp + 16k LF hp, 2.8k armor)

so tell me again how this is op?

Nice troll comparison, try with zerk or valkyrie.

To be honest, i play warrior and engineer on condition damage… Dire is one of the best statcombos u can have atm. U loose nearly no dps in comparison to the other condition-damage equipment while getting tankynes that is only comparable to soldiers gear. and while the damage multiplicator for power-dps (prec+crit damage) needs to be acquired with the equipment itself, u get the multiplicator for condition damage with runes/sigils and buffood. (its laugheable easy to reach the 100% duration cap with rune+sigil+buffood).
The only drawback is the same all condition build suffer. condition can be cleansed and they cap.

PS: The on-crit condition procs are so weak that its not smart to invest in crit-chance for conditioners.

hihey.1075:

So 15+ people jumped on a Necro who was gathering flowers in the OS and downed him in 5 seconds. Seems a nice to way to prove anything.

Hey, in the other thread someone was trying to show me that 5 players chaining stuns on a single target meant roots were overpowered. :P