Guild Wars 2

Lately the forums have flooded with threads about how over powered the warriors healing signet is. I can agree with most of these threads and i also think that the healing
signet is over the top and brings nothing but broken balance to Guild Wars 2 PVP.

This thread is not about the healing signet so lets get to the point which revolves around another signet – signet of spite. I myself play a necromancer and have done so since launch and have thought about making this thread for a long time. The main purpose of the thread is to constructively discuss signet of spite and hopefully come up with a solution that can help ANET redesign the utility into something more balanced and less “life” changing.

From overhearing several PVP streams i know that most top players agree and think that signet of spite in its essence is over powered especially when activated on/against certain professions like mesmer, elementalist and engineer. Most necromancers will use and combine it with a condition/fear chain letting them lethally pressure their target with little to no investment.

[Signet of spite]
Passive: Improves power.
Active: Inflict bleeding, blindness, crippled, poison, vulnerability, and weakness on your foe.

Passive effect: 180 power
Damage: 263
2 Bleeding: 10 s (850 damage)
Blind: 5 s
Crippled: 10 s
Poison: 10 s (840 damage)
5 Vulnerability: 10 s
Weakness: 10 s
Range: 1,200

Let me know what you think, and please keep it constructive!

/Djooce

Any decent necro will wait for his target to be C/Ced to use Signet of Spite, because in a team fight (but even in a 1v1) it usually means iWin if it lands.
The “problem” with this signet is that it unloads 5 conditions with a long duration on your target. Since the Necro will most likely keep putting conditions (thanks to Scepter aa) on the opponent, cleansing them will be close to impossible.
When I’m fighting a Signet of Spite necro with my D/P thief or Mesmer I know that I will have to use my elite to proc Lyssa runes in order to avoid death by being “spited”.
You basically need a full condition clear to stay alive after being spited. The 2 stacks of bleed are not the problem of this signet, it’s the overall condition meta that is the problem, imho.

Even though we do not really have a condition meta in pvp anymore. Most comps consist of guardian, warrior, ranger, thief, x (warrior). The problem is not the 2 stacks of bleed as you say, but all the conditions combined. It makes it very hard for anyone to cleanse all the conditions before new ones are applied by a necromancer. My problem is that it is way too effective compared to the investment that it takes to pull it off.

It is all about risk/reward! A necro can be really kittening bad but still be effective due to this single utility.

Sorry, i can’t take nerf necro threads serious anymore.
Especially when there are better condition dealing professions around.
especially when professions can apply 20 stacks of conditions on you withing 3 seconds.
Especially when the necromance is meant to be a condition artrition profession without defensive abilities or mobility.

If you die to signet of spite , maybe try something else then glass builds dropping 4k+ dmg weapon attacks.

that said.

The signet is high risk reward, following up, a condition necro doesn’t depend on signet of spite but is depending on his transfer and conversion abilities playing off the boons of its opponent. id rather run corrupt boon, blood is power (for the stacks), and epidemic. (rarely used unless fighting more then one opponent.) or a escape utility (worm/SW).

Keep in mind that this is a PVP (spvp/tpvp) discussion.

And how exactly does the signet have a high risk? Other professions might be better at applying a wide variation of conditions but can only do so using several weapon skills or utilities. Signet of spite is badly designed unless you want to be effective with literally no effort whatsoever, like it or not!

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Sorry, i can’t take nerf necro threads serious anymore.
Especially when there are better condition dealing professions around.
especially when professions can apply 20 stacks of conditions on you withing 3 seconds.
Especially when the necromance is meant to be a condition artrition profession without defensive abilities or mobility.

If you die to signet of spite , maybe try something else then glass builds dropping 4k+ dmg weapon attacks.

that said.

The signet is high risk reward, following up, a condition necro doesn’t depend on signet of spite but is depending on his transfer and conversion abilities playing off the boons of its opponent. id rather run corrupt boon, blood is power (for the stacks), and epidemic. (rarely used unless fighting more then one opponent.) or a escape utility (worm/SW).

Necromancers still are the kings of conditions. There is absolutely no profession (in PvP) able to put more condition pressure on opponents than necromancers. Terror+Dhuumfire+High Bleeds+Signet of Spite=dead class, unless they have Lyssa runes or they are Zerker stance Warriors/AR Engis.

djooceboxblast.9876:

And how exactly does the signet have a high risk? Other professions might be better at applying a wide variation of conditions but can only do so using several weapon skills or utilities. Signet of spite is badly designed unless you want to be effective with literally no effort whatsoever, like it or not!

LoS/dodgable/blockable etc. high DC, low damage, applying non damage conditions, (they are conditions.. ^^) when applied in a fearchain that is breakable and requires 3 traits of wich 2 Master in different lines making it niche thus being high risk since if it fails you fail. hence one cleanse or heal negating the conditions applied.. and thus negating spite.
I believe most necro’s ust this skill to scare their opponents into cleanse and heals to hopefully get more important conditions on them before their CD is up again.
If i apply conditions, and actually hit someone, and get conditions stacked high enough , i see spite as a good way to cover those conditions.
If you let a necro apply conditions on you to a point where terror will hit for 2k.. you are doing something wrong.

[comparing is bad but….compare this to 1-2 seconds of weapon attacks that take you for 10k damage in bursts..]

So yeah, high risk..

Signet of spite is powerful because the cleansing system is mostly out of the player’s hands.
They player has very little input on deciding what is getting removed or not when he cleanses.
If control conditions were somehow separated from pure damage conditions and both had different cleanses and only a few cleanses ( mostly full cleanses) which overlapped removal effects, SoS would become a lot less scary. The whole Condis are too powerful argument would probably also fall on it’s face.

Signet of spite has 60 sec cd(48 sec with trait),so i think its ok if skill with so much long cd is more powerfull than skills with for example only 20 or 30 sec cd.

I’m not sure Singet of Spite per se is overpowered but it is in conjunction with general condition spam and Fear/Terror. It’s practically a full condition dump and an iWin button unless the victim has Lyssa Runes or other full condition clears available.

The +40% Condition duration food just further exasperates the issue.

They could give the skill a longer cast-time and make it more obvious and easy to avoid without nerfing the effects directly. I’d still rather see less condition spam in general which then would make Signet of Spite less of an issue.

Kiriakulos.1690:

If control conditions were somehow separated from pure damage conditions and both had different cleanses and only a few cleanses ( mostly full cleanses) which overlapped removal effects, SoS would become a lot less scary. The whole Condis are too powerful argument would probably also fall on it’s face.

I agree. More condition cleanses need to be like the ones thieves have: namely Hide in Shadows, Withdraw, and Roll For Initiative (which also removes Fear). Thieves do have the luxury of being able to remove specific conditions that are troublesome, despite having no full clears.

I believe that this is the way the “increased condition defense” should go instead of “more cleanses/bigger cleanses/immunities”. The number of cleanses in the game might need to increase a bit more, but the new ones, and some existing ones, should be made more specific as to what they remove.

The “Signet of Spite” is too rewarding for what you actually have to do in my opinion.

You can press one button, and if you want to be sure that it lands, combine it with a fear to create a massive clusterkitten of chaos for your target. You could also combine it with a “Epedemic” in order to further spread the AIDS to the enemy team.

If you would also like to cleanse this, most people who are not using Lyssa runes or have their elite on cooldown, often have to use almost all their condition cleanses, which will leave you totally open to the rest of the 18 abilities.

Even though it is highly telegraphed, it brings too much to the game with the push of one button.

I’ve always felt that SoS was a weird skill in that it gives passive power but active conditions. If they changed it to a knockdown it would balance things out for condi and power necros, but condi necros are already getting nerfed so I’m not sure it is relevant anymore.

Roe.3679:

but condi necros are already getting nerfed so I’m not sure it is relevant anymore.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that

Signet of Spite gives power because beyond looking scary on your bar and covering bleeds, none of those conditions are terribly useful to a conditionmancer (two bleeds is paltry). On the other hand, chill, cripple and vulnerability are of great use to power Necros, especially those of the melee dagger variety.
The signet itself isn’t the issue, it’s compounding effect is. I agree with the above posters that if cleanses were better designed, it wouldn’t be an issue.

Balefire.7592:

Signet of Spite gives power because beyond looking scary on your bar and covering bleeds, none of those conditions are terribly useful to a conditionmancer (two bleeds is paltry). On the other hand, chill, cripple and vulnerability are of great use to power Necros, especially those of the melee dagger variety.
The signet itself isn’t the issue, it’s compounding effect is. I agree with the above posters that if cleanses were better designed, it wouldn’t be an issue.

Chill, WEAKNESS and cripple are of great use to a condition necromancer.

Fair enough. The point was that this signet isn’t necessarily intended to do damage – it’s intended to incapacitate the opponent, be it for defensive or offensive reasons. Hence, you are giving up the additional damage generated by the power boost for some breathing room/a window of opportunity when you activate it.

djooceboxblast.9876:

Even though we do not really have a condition meta in pvp anymore. Most comps consist of guardian, warrior, ranger, thief, x (warrior). The problem is not the 2 stacks of bleed as you say, but all the conditions combined. It makes it very hard for anyone to cleanse all the conditions before new ones are applied by a necromancer. My problem is that it is way too effective compared to the investment that it takes to pull it off.

It is all about risk/reward! A necro can be really kittening bad but still be effective due to this single utility.

Agreed with this.
I think utilities/traits like this causes too much unnecessary balance issues.
Also like you said if it was only poison and bleed it wouldn’t be much of an issue and i doubt anyone would actully use it then, imo it should get a complete makeover