Guild Wars 2

Thieves can perma stealth off of structures.

They have zero risk to themselves and nothing but benefit. They can attack players and if they are failing, use any wall to target and perma stealth.

Also, they risk nothing when in stealth and their attack misses, and they get to ambush again. There is no downside to need to weigh in on.

High DPS, High Mobility, Perma Stealth.

Does that seem like a balanced intention?

Who said what this game have ’’balance’’ ? go reroll sd thief with perma vigor/dodges/evade abilities , be happy

All the while never doing damage cause revealed exists………

Splatter Paw.7238:

All the while never doing damage cause revealed exists………

wrong, choking gas and caltrops don’t cause revealed.

Stealth is much more powerful in WvWvW than in spvp/tpvp. It is nowhere balanced there. Perma stealthed opponents contesting enemy keeps are extremely common and thieves (many of them the perma stealth variety e.g. D/P) are also by far the most common roaming profession.

They should limit the maximum duration of stealth to 8 seconds and make revealed 4 seconds, just like in pvp. Then nobody could stealth more than 2/3 of the time, which is still a lot of stealth in combat and would allow reasonable time for thieves to heal and cleanse conditions during stealth. Also any attack – missing or blocked or attacks done by clones or illusions or turrets or pets – should cause revealed. Currently there is no risk of trying to spam backstab etc. from stealth. Even if it misses or is blocked you still get no revealed. Currently PU mesmers can stay stealthed, while their illusions deal damage. This does not promote skillful play. And doesn’t make the fights fun at all.

Attacking stationary targets, like gates or enemy tower walls, should not give stealth with cloak and dagger.

Note: this is NOT a thief or mesmer rage comment. My suggestions should affect all professions. Currently engineers can also stealth for more than 8 seconds using smoke field + blast finishers. Limit this to max 8 seconds, please.

You also have to realize that stealth is a thief’s only form of defense (unless you’re an acro thief). All classes have their own defense system: warriors are innately tanky and have a high health pool, Guardians regen a lot of health and are tanky, Eles regen massive amounts of health. Stealth is the only was a thief CAN survive. Also, thieves do still take full damage while in stealth, so they’re don’t go into god mode like you see to believe. Stealth kittenes most people off because it’s different, and takes an entirely different strategy to play against. It requires you to THINK, okay he went into stealth, what is he going to do now. After a few stealths you should be able to tell how the thief plays, and from this, how to counter him. And finally, if someone kills you as thief, remember that it is entirely possible that they are simply good (and yes, possibly better than you).
On another note, If you nerf stealth, you need to give thief another reliable means of survival (not all of us want to go acro thieves; I personally find it quite boring).
But ya, you shouldn’t be able to stealth off of walls etc.

Quakeman.9378:

You also have to realize that stealth is a thief’s only form of defense (unless you’re an acro thief). All classes have their own defense system: warriors are innately tanky and have a high health pool, Guardians regen a lot of health and are tanky, Eles regen massive amounts of health. Stealth is the only was a thief CAN survive. Also, thieves do still take full damage while in stealth, so they’re don’t go into god mode like you see to believe. Stealth kittenes most people off because it’s different, and takes an entirely different strategy to play against. It requires you to THINK, okay he went into stealth, what is he going to do now. After a few stealths you should be able to tell how the thief plays, and from this, how to counter him. And finally, if someone kills you as thief, remember that it is entirely possible that they are simply good (and yes, possibly better than you).
On another note, If you nerf stealth, you need to give thief another reliable means of survival (not all of us want to go acro thieves; I personally find it quite boring).
But ya, you shouldn’t be able to stealth off of walls etc.

Ya totally, thiefs are also the only class that can’t dodge.

they need to break everything in half to balance, in pvp if you spec Shadow Arts you’ll be laughed out of the match, but i hear it is potent in wvw.
so balancing becomes difficult without a split since it is both utterly useless in one game mode and godly in another.

Poplolita.2638:

Quakeman.9378:

You also have to realize that stealth is a thief’s only form of defense (unless you’re an acro thief). All classes have their own defense system: warriors are innately tanky and have a high health pool, Guardians regen a lot of health and are tanky, Eles regen massive amounts of health. Stealth is the only was a thief CAN survive. Also, thieves do still take full damage while in stealth, so they’re don’t go into god mode like you see to believe. Stealth kittenes most people off because it’s different, and takes an entirely different strategy to play against. It requires you to THINK, okay he went into stealth, what is he going to do now. After a few stealths you should be able to tell how the thief plays, and from this, how to counter him. And finally, if someone kills you as thief, remember that it is entirely possible that they are simply good (and yes, possibly better than you).
On another note, If you nerf stealth, you need to give thief another reliable means of survival (not all of us want to go acro thieves; I personally find it quite boring).
But ya, you shouldn’t be able to stealth off of walls etc.

Ya totally, thiefs are also the only class that can’t dodge.

You’re kidding right? Yes you can dodge skills, but no matter what things are going to hit you. Take axe warriors for instance- their AAs hit me for 1-2k on average and I can;t dodge all of them. Also, what do your dodges do against condis? I didn’t consider dodges in my argument because all classes have them, so discussing it is pointless.

Quakeman.9378:

Poplolita.2638:

Quakeman.9378:

You also have to realize that stealth is a thief’s only form of defense (unless you’re an acro thief). All classes have their own defense system: warriors are innately tanky and have a high health pool, Guardians regen a lot of health and are tanky, Eles regen massive amounts of health. Stealth is the only was a thief CAN survive. Also, thieves do still take full damage while in stealth, so they’re don’t go into god mode like you see to believe. Stealth kittenes most people off because it’s different, and takes an entirely different strategy to play against. It requires you to THINK, okay he went into stealth, what is he going to do now. After a few stealths you should be able to tell how the thief plays, and from this, how to counter him. And finally, if someone kills you as thief, remember that it is entirely possible that they are simply good (and yes, possibly better than you).
On another note, If you nerf stealth, you need to give thief another reliable means of survival (not all of us want to go acro thieves; I personally find it quite boring).
But ya, you shouldn’t be able to stealth off of walls etc.

Ya totally, thiefs are also the only class that can’t dodge.

You’re kidding right? Yes you can dodge skills, but no matter what things are going to hit you. Take axe warriors for instance- their AAs hit me for 1-2k on average and I can;t dodge all of them. Also, what do your dodges do against condis? I didn’t consider dodges in my argument because all classes have them, so discussing it is pointless.

No classes have the huge amount of moblility/dodges thief currently have, that’s not even up for discussion.

I’m starting to wonder, the people that still target “perma-stealth”, are they new to game, new to pvp content, or have seen the multitude of other threads and still want their voices to be heard?

I think a memo got around to post thief nerf requests for the forum daily. If you’re getting something other than mystic coins count me in!

Nerf mug

Why?: 2k heal is too much, I can’t interrupt it.

Now I wait…

RedSpectrum.1975:

I’m starting to wonder, the people that still target “perma-stealth”, are they new to game, new to pvp content, or have seen the multitude of other threads and still want their voices to be heard?

they play WvW, i’m a pvper and agree that stealth is useless for conquest since it means your neither capping a point or doing any damage.
but in wvw it can be pretty godly and allows a thief to chip away at the enemy, or completely heal to full without any worry, even bypass through an entire zerg, or stay inside a base to recap it when the enemy zerg leaves..

The thing that needs to be changed about thiefs stealth in my opinion is that when they use a skill while stealthed , they are always revealed. Even if they miss the target.

While I agree its strange you can stealth off walls in WvW, I dont really consider what we have going now perma stealth. It used to be a lot worse. That said, I also dont believe All the claims that stealth is the only survival for thieves. The class has multiple ways to gain vigor, good traits like Mug and also evade skills like Larcenous strike/Pistol whip and shadowstep. Yes, some keep you rooted, but the class has a lot of ways to survive outside just stealthing. I dont want to see an extreme nerf to stealth to the point its not usable (which will mess up ALOT of traits), but lord, stop acting like Its your only survival Mechanism. Thats like me playing mesmer and forgetting I have an evade every 12s with sword.

It can be strong, needs adjusting, but not something that will cripple it to worthlessness.

Quakeman.9378:

You also have to realize that stealth is a thief’s only form of defense (unless you’re an acro thief). All classes have their own defense system: warriors are innately tanky and have a high health pool, Guardians regen a lot of health and are tanky, Eles regen massive amounts of health. Stealth is the only was a thief CAN survive. Also, thieves do still take full damage while in stealth, so they’re don’t go into god mode like you see to believe. Stealth kittenes most people off because it’s different, and takes an entirely different strategy to play against. It requires you to THINK, okay he went into stealth, what is he going to do now. After a few stealths you should be able to tell how the thief plays, and from this, how to counter him. And finally, if someone kills you as thief, remember that it is entirely possible that they are simply good (and yes, possibly better than you).
On another note, If you nerf stealth, you need to give thief another reliable means of survival (not all of us want to go acro thieves; I personally find it quite boring).
But ya, you shouldn’t be able to stealth off of walls etc.

You also need to remember many forms of combat require you to be able to see a target to continue to hit them. Warrior swinging a sword can still damage you but a gun will not do any damage. etc

My biggest problem with this constant stealthing is you can easily burst conditions every 4 secs as a thief or have clones constantly apply conditions while you just sit in stealth regening as the opponent swings around wildly. Mix and repeat until the opponent puts all their cleanses on cool down. It is Stupid easy to kill people with a stealth condition build…stupid easy…its fun and kind of funny but that combination that a condi thief has is just plain unfair for most professions to compete against.

Wiseman.4075:

Quakeman.9378:

snip

Double Snip

I believe Wiseman has something worth talking about. Right now in WvW, the the fact you can burst via stealth auto bleeds + tormenting that is making Stealth more of a nuisance than before for me also. While thieves do have lots of survival aspects to them, they were still mostly squishy targets, so In most cases when you did die to a thief using stealth, they were indeed probably better than you because if they got hit on directly more than 5 times, they were usually close to dead. They were playing a somewhat dangerous game (one they could escape, yes, but still dangerous).

But right now, that problem is slowly no longer a factor. The reasoning for their high mobility and stealth has always been because they are squishy. It makes very much sense. but lately the new builds are using stuff like Apoth and Dire, relatively tanky sets in a toughness line. When you throw these together you get something short of single targeted burst similar to necromancer and sustain similar but with mobility. In some cases, it barely feels like a big deal such as sPvP where there isn’t much to be used to actually get the sustain outside other players, so counterplay is possible via dodging, evades or well placed CCs. but in WvW, there are other factors to account for. Also, mobility can only get you so far in sPvP because you have to be within a certain area.

In all honesty, It makes you wonder what really is the culprit in all of it. Sure, stealth abuse causes this to be insane, but maybe the condi application or tankiness of the set is the real problem? Maybe its just the fact that WvW in itself causes mechanics which are normal in other formats to go to levels of absurdity. Necromancer Life force is a good example. In sPvP, most people are starved to death of life force. But in WvW, they practically Bathe in it to the point that if their group is taking objectives well/consistently, they almost become something similar to ADCs in League of legends.

Anyway, sorry if this is rather long post.

Loyo.8526:

Wiseman.4075:

Quakeman.9378:

snip

Double Snip

I believe Wiseman has something worth talking about. Right now in WvW, the the fact you can burst via stealth auto bleeds + tormenting that is making Stealth more of a nuisance than before for me also. While thieves do have lots of survival aspects to them, they were still mostly squishy targets, so In most cases when you did die to a thief using stealth, they were indeed probably better than you because if they got hit on directly more than 5 times, they were usually close to dead. They were playing a somewhat dangerous game (one they could escape, yes, but still dangerous).

But right now, that problem is slowly no longer a factor. The reasoning for their high mobility and stealth has always been because they are squishy. It makes very much sense. but lately the new builds are using stuff like Apoth and Dire, relatively tanky sets in a toughness line. When you throw these together you get something short of single targeted burst similar to necromancer and sustain similar but with mobility. In some cases, it barely feels like a big deal such as sPvP where there isn’t much to be used to actually get the sustain outside other players, so counterplay is possible via dodging, evades or well placed CCs. but in WvW, there are other factors to account for. Also, mobility can only get you so far in sPvP because you have to be within a certain area.

In all honesty, It makes you wonder what really is the culprit in all of it. Sure, stealth abuse causes this to be insane, but maybe the condi application or tankiness of the set is the real problem? Maybe its just the fact that WvW in itself causes mechanics which are normal in other formats to go to levels of absurdity. Necromancer Life force is a good example. In sPvP, most people are starved to death of life force. But in WvW, they practically Bathe in it to the point that if their group is taking objectives well/consistently, they almost become something similar to ADCs in League of legends.

Anyway, sorry if this is rather long post.

Agreed, its the combination of survival, mobility and stealth coupled with the Conditions. Its easy to build up to 2000condi dmg 60% bleeding duration. Obviously this can be done in PVT gear too which I think many WvW thieves use but they have to come out of stealth to hit you (and jump back in). Its this combined with conditions that use the stealth, Acro line and Dire gear that make the thief surprisingly tanky and somewhat untouchable And can disengage and run away when warranted. That makes this build super powerful for WvW to the point of being very very difficult to fight against.

Quakeman.9378:

Poplolita.2638:

Quakeman.9378:

You also have to realize that stealth is a thief’s only form of defense (unless you’re an acro thief). All classes have their own defense system: warriors are innately tanky and have a high health pool, Guardians regen a lot of health and are tanky, Eles regen massive amounts of health. Stealth is the only was a thief CAN survive. Also, thieves do still take full damage while in stealth, so they’re don’t go into god mode like you see to believe. Stealth kittenes most people off because it’s different, and takes an entirely different strategy to play against. It requires you to THINK, okay he went into stealth, what is he going to do now. After a few stealths you should be able to tell how the thief plays, and from this, how to counter him. And finally, if someone kills you as thief, remember that it is entirely possible that they are simply good (and yes, possibly better than you).
On another note, If you nerf stealth, you need to give thief another reliable means of survival (not all of us want to go acro thieves; I personally find it quite boring).
But ya, you shouldn’t be able to stealth off of walls etc.

Ya totally, thiefs are also the only class that can’t dodge.

You’re kidding right? Yes you can dodge skills, but no matter what things are going to hit you. Take axe warriors for instance- their AAs hit me for 1-2k on average and I can;t dodge all of them. Also, what do your dodges do against condis? I didn’t consider dodges in my argument because all classes have them, so discussing it is pointless.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

you say thief’s only form of defense is stealth, and other classes have blocks, invulnerabilities, etc. etc.

the difference is that we don’t (and can’t) have a permanent uptime of those. good thieves, when they stealth, will never be hit because they take full use of their dodges, teleports, and w/e else they have and its overpowered… not only do they have very high mobility, when they perma stealth (heck, even going into shadow’s refuge for 10-15 seconds and you can never find them if they run away)

no other class can do this, even warrior’s can be chased down if they are full mobility (it takes some effort but it can be done)

the quote isn’t working right on that, idk why ^

Deniara Devious.3948:

Stealth is much more powerful in WvWvW than in spvp/tpvp. It is nowhere balanced there. Perma stealthed opponents contesting enemy keeps are extremely common and thieves (many of them the perma stealth variety e.g. D/P) are also by far the most common roaming profession.

They should limit the maximum duration of stealth to 8 seconds and make revealed 4 seconds, just like in pvp. Then nobody could stealth more than 2/3 of the time, which is still a lot of stealth in combat and would allow reasonable time for thieves to heal and cleanse conditions during stealth. Also any attack – missing or blocked or attacks done by clones or illusions or turrets or pets – should cause revealed. Currently there is no risk of trying to spam backstab etc. from stealth. Even if it misses or is blocked you still get no revealed. Currently PU mesmers can stay stealthed, while their illusions deal damage. This does not promote skillful play. And doesn’t make the fights fun at all.

Note: this is NOT a thief or mesmer rage comment. My suggestions should affect all professions. Currently engineers can also stealth for more than 8 seconds using smoke field + blast finishers. Limit this to max 8 seconds, please.

I wonder how people can suggest such changes and not realize how this would nerf the thief profession into oblivion. Getting revealed when your backtstab gets evaded? Holy crap, it’ll be a walk in the park to defeat any dagger mainhand thief. I find them quite easy as it is already.

And I’m actually hoping revealed will be pushed back to 3 seconds in PvP because the only thing 4 second reveal does is completely kill D/D thief builds. It messes up their rotation, and they lack the defensive mechanisms to get through this longer period of reveal, whereas D/P has Black Powder and additional blinds with Shadow Shot, and also the daze on Headshot. Introduce the same increased reveal in WvW and the D/D builds will cease to exist, and they’re rare as it is already.

Okaishi.8320:

I wonder how people can suggest such changes and not realize how this would nerf the thief profession into oblivion. Getting revealed when your backtstab gets evaded? Holy crap, it’ll be a walk in the park to defeat any dagger mainhand thief. I find them quite easy as it is already.

And I’m actually hoping revealed will be pushed back to 3 seconds in PvP because the only thing 4 second reveal does is completely kill D/D thief builds. It messes up their rotation, and they lack the defensive mechanisms to get through this longer period of reveal, whereas D/P has Black Powder and additional blinds with Shadow Shot, and also the daze on Headshot. Introduce the same increased reveal in WvW and the D/D builds will cease to exist, and they’re rare as it is already.

As a D/D thief that plays WvW (roaming) the majority of time in this game, I can tell you for a fact that if I was revealed every time someone evaded or blocked my backstab, then I would probably have to change builds. It’s not due to a lack of skill on my part, it’s due to the ability of some classes to spam blocks/evades and the fact that I use a global cooldown system for my weapon sets. A D/D thief gives up a lot of utility that other weapon sets have access to, all in favor of a heavy hitting out of stealth attack that makes the enemy really have to focus on denying the thief stealth and then making it hard for that thief to hit him if he does get his stealth.

People who come on this forum and make ridiculous suggestions like reveal on block/evade/invulnerable have never played a thief, especially a higher skill cap build than the average D/P permastealth troll builds in WvW. The only thing a nerf like that would do is further push players into condi-bunker P/D thief builds and D/P thieves would remain relatively unchanged because guess what, they still have plenty of blinds to hit you with if they were to get revealed on a blocked backstab. You may see more S/D and a few S/P builds become more popular, but you would see the death of the iconic D/D build that even now less and less thieves are running because it is not easy to do correctly.

Okaishi here has the right of it, and it’s a shame more people don’t see how stupid a change like that would be to a class that’s already one of the most fragile classes in this game. I mean honestly, the compensation for a reveal on block would have to be pretty good. I’m thinking something like spammable protection boon/aegis. Actually yeah… that sounds perfect in terms of compensation. Feel free to force me to be revealed whenever a warrior hits 5 on his shield just as I hit my backstab key. But when I come out of that stealth, let me have PU bonuses like protection and aegis. That way the warrior can’t immediately try and send and eviscerate that will knock me down to 10% my way while I have to wait 3 seconds for my defensive and offensive mechanic to come back off cooldown. (That last part was just kind of an example. If you’re an Axe/Shield warrior I mean you no harm. Keep fighting the good fight.)

Hsinimod.5784:

Thieves can perma stealth off of structures.

They have zero risk to themselves and nothing but benefit. They can attack players and if they are failing, use any wall to target and perma stealth.

Also, they risk nothing when in stealth and their attack misses, and they get to ambush again. There is no downside to need to weigh in on.

High DPS, High Mobility, Perma Stealth.

Does that seem like a balanced intention?

If you think thieves have no risk at all no downside then you never have killed a thief or seen one die. That is basically what your saying

I am always curious why ppl complain about thieves in WvW. I’d appreciate if the complaints came with addition context such, as 1v1, 5v5, zergVzerg, and any additional environmental context that’s relevant.

In general I get the feeling people are upset about 1v1 situations where their build isn’t setup for a dual and a thief’s is, so additional context would be helpful.

Also stealth doesn’t allow contesting of points unless someone is somehow exploiting a bug.

Anyone who think stealth is too strong probably never played thief. Most thieves are weak against constant conditions and cleansing in stealth is the most reliable cleansing they have.
The same goes for pure damage I never heard of tanking on thief, it’s either blind,daze,evade or stealth that is all we got. That’s the way the game is given to us so we deal with it.
We already have the worst pvp weapon set ever P/P and try to roll 2/6/0/0/6 against a heavy conditioner.Some call me no-skilled player when I run P/D,the options are limited.
Anyone who says stealth is too strong probably panic when they saw a Backstab damage or get caught in too many Tactical Strikes.Why you don’t you tell me how to survive in zerg with thief and still do damage?

I would guess that 50% of roamers in wvw are thieves – so something must be wrong. Where are the complaints about engineers, rangers, etc? I recently faced a 4 person troll group – 3 thieves and 1 engineer.
Engineer has a smoke field and a bunch of blast finishers. That group made the rest of us look like the keystone cops. Every time somebody went down – they quickly got rezzed – even if we killed them. Eventually, somebody said, “just let them take the camp so they can go away.” Granted this is an rare case, but it illustrates the frustration people have with the class.

The epitaph of wvw will be written by stealthed thief .. or so we assume since we can’t actually see them doing the writing.

Samis.1750:

I would guess that 50% of roamers in wvw are thieves – so something must be wrong.

I would guess 50% of the zergers are guardians, with another 30% being warriors. So yeah, something must be wrong.

godz raiden.2631:

. Feel free to force me to be revealed whenever a warrior hits 5 on his shield just as I hit my backstab key. But when I come out of that stealth, let me have PU bonuses like protection and aegis.

I actually think the best route might be a compromise, where skills that block only selectively apply revealed on weapons/utilities for classes that might need it. Like the block on Ranger’s GS, or the block on Engies shield which has a 40s CD.

roamzero.9486:

godz raiden.2631:

. Feel free to force me to be revealed whenever a warrior hits 5 on his shield just as I hit my backstab key. But when I come out of that stealth, let me have PU bonuses like protection and aegis.

I actually think the best route might be a compromise, where skills that block only selectively apply revealed on weapons/utilities for classes that might need it. Like the block on Ranger’s GS, or the block on Engies shield which has a 40s CD.

Engi and ranger built to duel can easily take care of thieves so no!

Yeah, I don’t think engineers require any more help in fighting thieves, so I wouldn’t be alright with the block on engi shield being capable of revealing me, then potentially dazing me twice. That gives me 3 seconds without my main mechanic for damage, and it locks me out of my other weapon abilities as well. If you want an easy loot bag, sure this would be great for balance… except for the fact that half of current thief players would quit the game or reroll.

Samis.1750:

I would guess that 50% of roamers in wvw are thieves – so something must be wrong. Where are the complaints about engineers, rangers, etc? I recently faced a 4 person troll group – 3 thieves and 1 engineer.
Engineer has a smoke field and a bunch of blast finishers. That group made the rest of us look like the keystone cops. Every time somebody went down – they quickly got rezzed – even if we killed them. Eventually, somebody said, “just let them take the camp so they can go away.” Granted this is an rare case, but it illustrates the frustration people have with the class.

The epitaph of wvw will be written by stealthed thief .. or so we assume since we can’t actually see them doing the writing.

Weird that a lot of people who roam play thief, it’s almost as if the class design specifically caters to small scale fighting and not Blob versus Blob gameplay. Ever heard of GWEN? Guardian, Warrior, Elementalist, Necro. Those are the 4 meta classes for WvW group fighting. Try taking a zerg of only thieves and fighting a GWEN blob. You will not win. When players like you say things like this, all it comes across as to thief players, such as myself, is: “I don’t think thieves should have a viable method of gameplay throughout this entire game. They should be nerfed into the ground so only 7 classes exist. I hate learning to play against many classes, I need this game dumbed down so I don’t die as much.” Seriously, that’s what it looks like to us.

It’s funny that you ask where the complaints about rangers and engis are… because both of those classes can excel at fighting thieves. You just don’t see complaints about them because most thief players probably try to learn to fight against them instead of coming on this forum and requesting nerfs. You should roll a thief and go fight a perplexity engineer. See how much fun that is, and then come back here and post your realization that there are builds that can make thieves look like trash.

That was just one example too, there are plenty of builds that can beat a thief, but you have to know how to play against thieves as well. I think that’s why so many people have problems fighting thieves honestly. Fighting a thief revolves more around player skill and knowledge than your build, and let’s be honest, 75% of WvW players rely on their build to carry them through the game mode.

Stealth need counter,like if you take damage you lose stealth you know common sens stuff

Killface.1896:

Stealth need counter,like if you take damage you lose stealth you know common sens stuff

Not sure if you’re serious or not, but that change would simply get rid of all viable stealth builds and push thieves more into evade based specs. Be ready to see a lot of S/D builds and condi bunkers lol.

Samis.1750:

I would guess that 50% of roamers in wvw are thieves – so something must be wrong.

Other than that is irrelevant for the discussion, I think that this estimation is not even true. I see each of the other professions roaming in WvW as much as I see thieves.

TyPin.9860:

Samis.1750:

I would guess that 50% of roamers in wvw are thieves – so something must be wrong.

Other than that is irrelevant for the discussion, I think that this estimation is not even true. I see each of the other professions roaming in WvW as much as I see thieves.

But can you see thieves roaming?

They have perma stealth.!!! 1!1
Haxxxxxx

#notserious

From Sirlin:

“And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it’s unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics.”

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwOkoeUK3M

Check out this guy he wrecks thieves like they are nothing.

Wiseman.4075:

Quakeman.9378:

You also have to realize that stealth is a thief’s only form of defense (unless you’re an acro thief). All classes have their own defense system: warriors are innately tanky and have a high health pool, Guardians regen a lot of health and are tanky, Eles regen massive amounts of health. Stealth is the only was a thief CAN survive. Also, thieves do still take full damage while in stealth, so they’re don’t go into god mode like you see to believe. Stealth kittenes most people off because it’s different, and takes an entirely different strategy to play against. It requires you to THINK, okay he went into stealth, what is he going to do now. After a few stealths you should be able to tell how the thief plays, and from this, how to counter him. And finally, if someone kills you as thief, remember that it is entirely possible that they are simply good (and yes, possibly better than you).
On another note, If you nerf stealth, you need to give thief another reliable means of survival (not all of us want to go acro thieves; I personally find it quite boring).
But ya, you shouldn’t be able to stealth off of walls etc.

You also need to remember many forms of combat require you to be able to see a target to continue to hit them. Warrior swinging a sword can still damage you but a gun will not do any damage. etc

My biggest problem with this constant stealthing is you can easily burst conditions every 4 secs as a thief or have clones constantly apply conditions while you just sit in stealth regening as the opponent swings around wildly. Mix and repeat until the opponent puts all their cleanses on cool down. It is Stupid easy to kill people with a stealth condition build…stupid easy…its fun and kind of funny but that combination that a condi thief has is just plain unfair for most professions to compete against.

You have a very good point m8. Condition thief builds are extremely annoying, and because most of them run dire equips they’re quite tanky also. I honestly just don’t fight P/D thieves anymore.

Quakeman.9378:

Wiseman.4075:

Quakeman.9378:

You also have to realize that stealth is a thief’s only form of defense (unless you’re an acro thief). All classes have their own defense system: warriors are innately tanky and have a high health pool, Guardians regen a lot of health and are tanky, Eles regen massive amounts of health. Stealth is the only was a thief CAN survive. Also, thieves do still take full damage while in stealth, so they’re don’t go into god mode like you see to believe. Stealth kittenes most people off because it’s different, and takes an entirely different strategy to play against. It requires you to THINK, okay he went into stealth, what is he going to do now. After a few stealths you should be able to tell how the thief plays, and from this, how to counter him. And finally, if someone kills you as thief, remember that it is entirely possible that they are simply good (and yes, possibly better than you).
On another note, If you nerf stealth, you need to give thief another reliable means of survival (not all of us want to go acro thieves; I personally find it quite boring).
But ya, you shouldn’t be able to stealth off of walls etc.

You also need to remember many forms of combat require you to be able to see a target to continue to hit them. Warrior swinging a sword can still damage you but a gun will not do any damage. etc

My biggest problem with this constant stealthing is you can easily burst conditions every 4 secs as a thief or have clones constantly apply conditions while you just sit in stealth regening as the opponent swings around wildly. Mix and repeat until the opponent puts all their cleanses on cool down. It is Stupid easy to kill people with a stealth condition build…stupid easy…its fun and kind of funny but that combination that a condi thief has is just plain unfair for most professions to compete against.

You have a very good point m8. Condition thief builds are extremely annoying, and because most of them run dire equips they’re quite tanky also. I honestly just don’t fight P/D thieves anymore.

The thing is lately everyone is running a kinda of tanky condi set up when roaming. That type of spec is acutally easier for a condi pd thief as opposed to a glassier zerker set up. Pd thief gonna do basically the same amount of damage to a glassy target and tanky target. Though players argue that mostly condi spec do to much damage for there tankiness that facts are though they do less damage.

Glassier set up gonna have a much easier time against pd condi thiefs also this game is not balance around 1v1 so if thats what you are complaining about get over it.

Hsinimod.5784:

Thieves can perma stealth off of structures.

They have zero risk to themselves and nothing but benefit. They can attack players and if they are failing, use any wall to target and perma stealth.

Also, they risk nothing when in stealth and their attack misses, and they get to ambush again. There is no downside to need to weigh in on.

High DPS, High Mobility, Perma Stealth.

Does that seem like a balanced intention?

im sorry did you say zero risk for thief? excuse me while i clean up this water i just spat out of my mouth

Wiseman.4075:

Quakeman.9378:

You also have to realize that stealth is a thief’s only form of defense (unless you’re an acro thief). All classes have their own defense system: warriors are innately tanky and have a high health pool, Guardians regen a lot of health and are tanky, Eles regen massive amounts of health. Stealth is the only was a thief CAN survive. Also, thieves do still take full damage while in stealth, so they’re don’t go into god mode like you see to believe. Stealth kittenes most people off because it’s different, and takes an entirely different strategy to play against. It requires you to THINK, okay he went into stealth, what is he going to do now. After a few stealths you should be able to tell how the thief plays, and from this, how to counter him. And finally, if someone kills you as thief, remember that it is entirely possible that they are simply good (and yes, possibly better than you).
On another note, If you nerf stealth, you need to give thief another reliable means of survival (not all of us want to go acro thieves; I personally find it quite boring).
But ya, you shouldn’t be able to stealth off of walls etc.

You also need to remember many forms of combat require you to be able to see a target to continue to hit them. Warrior swinging a sword can still damage you but a gun will not do any damage. etc

My biggest problem with this constant stealthing is you can easily burst conditions every 4 secs as a thief or have clones constantly apply conditions while you just sit in stealth regening as the opponent swings around wildly. Mix and repeat until the opponent puts all their cleanses on cool down. It is Stupid easy to kill people with a stealth condition build…stupid easy…its fun and kind of funny but that combination that a condi thief has is just plain unfair for most professions to compete against.

Have you tried playing a “stealth condition build” thief? There is no such thing. Stealth thieves rely on d/p for no target stealth, or d/d 5 for target stealth. Both ways of stealthing are very costly in initiative, so the thieves get what they are paying for.

When in stealth, you can’t do any damage. You can’t deal condi damage with a d/p unless you’re talking about dagger 1’s silly minuscule poison effect. You can’t deal condi damage with a d/d if you use 5 because you made your decision to use initiative for stealth instead of doing condition damage. D/d condition thieves use 3 to stack bleed, and by the time they have stacked a decent amount of bleed they have run out of initiative to use 5 for stealth. You’ll find d/d condition thieves use a dodge-evade playing style instead of stealthing.

Other weapon combinations just don’t get enough stealth so I’m not going to mention them. Shadow refuge has a cooldown of 60 seconds. Blinding powder has a cooldown of 40 seconds but lasts 3 seconds. I don’t see how people could complain about thieves’ stealth when it’s all they have for defence. You are talking about thieves as though they go into stealth 90% of the time in fights but in reality most dps thieves cannot stay in stealth for long amounts of time and most stealthy thieves cannot deal a high amount of damage.

People dislike stealthy thieves because they are lazy to find ways to counter them. They have a set of tactics they think work for them but are unwilling to change when it comes to fighting thieves. When they can’t beat a certain profession with their playing-style, it’s OP.

I have spent a very long time in pvp–most people there have no problem with killing thieves. Maybe, it’s because when you lose to a thief, you lose bad. Because the thief knows what he’s doing and you don’t. I have also lost badly as a thief too, especially to condi engineers. The constant burn when I’m in stealth makes my stealth almost useless, and the constant spray of flame thrower or dropping of grenades/mines when I’m in stealth–the horror.

With thieves, you just have to think a little, that’s all. They aren’t the gods you make them out to be.

Shockwave.1230:

I am always curious why ppl complain about thieves in WvW. I’d appreciate if the complaints came with addition context such, as 1v1, 5v5, zergVzerg, and any additional environmental context that’s relevant.

In general I get the feeling people are upset about 1v1 situations where their build isn’t setup for a dual and a thief’s is, so additional context would be helpful.

Also stealth doesn’t allow contesting of points unless someone is somehow exploiting a bug.

Shock, you have just summed up the entire issue. Bravo.

In essence, this, and only this, is the reason for the endless QQ about stealth/clones. The entire stealth mechanic is basically a “one-venue pony” so to speak: WvW solo or small group roaming. In all other venues the stealth mechanic is at best average, and often a poor trait-line choice.

BUT, but … you have to remember the psychology involved here. When you die to a NPC or even a WvW zerg blob, it has little impact or meaning — but when a player dies (or is frustrated by his opponent being able to easily disengage) to another real-life player – for many, especially adolescents, they take it very personal. The Rage/QQ against stealth is not new, and can be found in every single MMO that has a class that specializes in stealth. In this respect you simply have to take the QQ with a grain of salt, and ignore it mostly.

The bottom line is that some players, especially those that like to roam in WvW, believe that they have some kind of “right” not to be frustrated, and since stealth and clones do just that, many (not all) re-act like frustrated children, ie, they throw a “forum tantrum”. By the way, this is NOT true of everyone, as there are many folks that do just fine in WvW solo/small group roaming on non Thief or Mesmers classes. In fact, many of them specialize in killing thieves/mesmers. But that won’t get you anywhere in these discussions; because a 16-year old tantrum thrower that just got stomped 3 strait times trying to 1v1 a thief with his PvE build, he does not want to hear it.

Ision.3207:

The bottom line is that some players, especially those that like to roam in WvW, believe that they have some kind of “right” not to be frustrated, and since stealth and clones do just that, many (not all) re-act like frustrated children, ie, they throw a “forum tantrum”. By the way, this is NOT true of everyone, as there are many folks that do just fine in WvW solo/small group roaming on non Thief or Mesmers classes. In fact, many of them specialize in killing thieves/mesmers. But that won’t get you anywhere in these discussions, because a 16-year old tantrum thrower that just got stomped 3 strait times trying to 1v1 a thief with his PvE build, he does not want to hear it.

My sentiments exactly.

Stealth in GW2 is a terrible mechanic. So broken…

And then they combine it with Traits that give even more advantage to Stealth…

The discussion of this thread has side trailed. It is also full of false information e.g. claiming that you cannot deal any damage during stealth. You can deal damage while staying stealthed e.g. caltrops from uncatchable or choking gas or all the illusions and turrets continue attack and do damage while you are stealthed.

The original topic was permanent stealth. I seriously believe that the maximum duration of stealth should be limited, especially in WvWvW setting.

What would a reasonable maximum duration for stealth? I proposed 8 seconds. I still think that revealed should be same in spvp/tpvp (currently 4 s) and WvWvW (currently 3 s).

Permanent stealth, allows to remain hidden indefinitely inside enemy towers and keeps, thus later being able to capture, sabotage or provide health. Very long last stealth allows to reset fights with ease and do stealth rezzes. This is a NOT a learn to play issue. I know very well how shadow refuge looks like, but not everybody can fear or launch the enemy players out of the shadow refuge. AoE attacking the shadow refuge rarely leads to corpses, unless you run yourself a high damage build, which tend to very vulnerable against bursts. To make matters worst, you can give AoE stealth to your allies.

Currently thieves are the only commonly encountered solo roamers running full berserker gear (or close to it). I do NOT mean that all thieves running full zerker and I know that P/D condi thieves are common as well, but you really don’t see much any professions running full zerker in roaming. Mesmers running shatter burst + zerker gear have become rare and most mesmers nowadays are semi bunkers using Prismatic Understanding (PU) and often also condition or hybrid builds. Static discharge engineer has nice dps and pretty good burst, but lack defense and tools of disengagement if the burst goes work. Full Zerker elementalist deals the best dps and burst in the game, but the low health pool and light armor makes it very risky, thus basically nobody runs it.

Despite the changes to critical damage / ferocity, the WvWvW suffers massive power creep (and the recent changes to the sigils allowed even more potential bursts). This obviously leads to the boring condi bunker meta. If you don’t run a fairly durable build, enemy thieves can burst you down literally in less than 1 second.

Why should thieves have the exclusive right to run full offensive zerker builds in solo roaming? There has been other threads about thieves driving away other damage dealers.

Many people on these forums have been asking for a Team Death Match (TDM) mode. TDM will not work very the way the stealth is handled in this game. Either or both parties would probably stealth at start and burst down the first enem, shadowstep/stealth if things go wrong. Fights would be mainly determined who gets the initiative. In GW1 burst was generally countered by healer monks (especially infuse health monks), but in GW2 there is no way to burst your health your ally quickly enough. Now stealth sort of works in spvp/tpvp, because the maps are very small (thus blanket AoE has better chances to hit something) and the pvp is all about holding and contesting points, which you cannot do while stealthed. In WvWvW there is no real big disadvantage of being stealthed.

I have only 1 issue with Stealth. AoE Stealth.

godz raiden.2631:

As a D/D thief that plays WvW (roaming) the majority of time in this game, I can tell you for a fact that if I was revealed every time someone evaded or blocked my backstab, then I would probably have to change builds. It’s not due to a lack of skill on my part, it’s due to the ability of some classes to spam blocks/evades and the fact that I use a global cooldown system for my weapon sets. A D/D thief gives up a lot of utility that other weapon sets have access to, all in favor of a heavy hitting out of stealth attack that makes the enemy really have to focus on denying the thief stealth and then making it hard for that thief to hit him if he does get his stealth.

People who come on this forum and make ridiculous suggestions like reveal on block/evade/invulnerable have never played a thief, especially a higher skill cap build than the average D/P permastealth troll builds in WvW. The only thing a nerf like that would do is further push players into condi-bunker P/D thief builds and D/P thieves would remain relatively unchanged because guess what, they still have plenty of blinds to hit you with if they were to get revealed on a blocked backstab. You may see more S/D and a few S/P builds become more popular, but you would see the death of the iconic D/D build that even now less and less thieves are running because it is not easy to do correctly.

Okaishi here has the right of it, and it’s a shame more people don’t see how stupid a change like that would be to a class that’s already one of the most fragile classes in this game. I mean honestly, the compensation for a reveal on block would have to be pretty good. I’m thinking something like spammable protection boon/aegis. Actually yeah… that sounds perfect in terms of compensation. Feel free to force me to be revealed whenever a warrior hits 5 on his shield just as I hit my backstab key. But when I come out of that stealth, let me have PU bonuses like protection and aegis. That way the warrior can’t immediately try and send and eviscerate that will knock me down to 10% my way while I have to wait 3 seconds for my defensive and offensive mechanic to come back off cooldown. (That last part was just kind of an example. If you’re an Axe/Shield warrior I mean you no harm. Keep fighting the good fight.)

If a Warrior times his block when you Backstab, shouldn’t the Warrior be rewarded? Shouldn’t there be risk to Backstab, or do you think because you build into it, there should no longer be any risk?

Personally, I think any ability use while in Stealth should remove Stealth. If the ability does damage, the Revealed debuff should be applied. If you get Blocked/Evaded, then you are removed from Stealth but don’t have Revealed, so you can go back in. As it stands, I can successfully dodge a Backstab, and I’m rewarded with the potentially just having another chance to Backstab me immediately again.

Should there really not be any risk in just sort of spamming Backstab behind someone until it lands? Should Backstab be able to remove Aegis with no penalty whatsoever? Should a Thief who predictably swings Backstab after ~2 seconds not be penalized in some way for their opponent properly timing their evasion at that time?

Backstab currently has no graphical tell, no cooldown, and no initiative cost. Should it also have no penalty for misuse? And no, I don’t think the reduced damage from the front is any kind of penalty.

Also, Thief fragility is not a straight-forward concept. Imagine two tasks:

1. Hunt a squirrel in an open field with a claw hammer.
2. Break a cement block with a claw hammer.

The squirrel is more fragile than the cement block. If you catch the squirrel, the fight is over and you win. The block will take longer to break down, so you’ll have to repeatedly hammer it, but it’s just sitting there in front of you.

Does that mean #1 is easier than #2? If we have a competition where I do #2 and you do #1, are you satisfied that it is a test of skill with a claw hammer because the squirrel is much more fragile than the cement block?

Contrivance.7980:

Wiseman.4075:

Quakeman.9378:

Snip

snip

Snip

Its not about the damage only honestly. the problem is the sustain in certain situations. Yes, You require offhand dagger or Dagger Pistol for stealth, and I know how much it cost because I play S/D daily along with power P/D when im bored. But stating that P/D isnt worth mentioning because it doesnt offer enough ‘stealth’. It may be expensive, but its the same amount of stealth as D/D if you dont count Smoke screen jumping.

What I think is also wrong is that you still consider Stealth your only defense. Its as if I were to say aegis is my only defense as a guardian. You have dodges, evades, teleports, weapon skill evades, vigor. Point is, the argument of your ‘only defense’ is false.

And to be frank, I dont know many people who dont spec to fight Thieves in WvW. Many people do bring some sort of things to fight them such as channeled skills, knockbacks or condi transfers. But that doesnt mean that the argument vs condition thief isn’t valid still simply because you believe players dont bring the stuff needed to fight them. There are many that I dont mind fighting in a 1v1. Honestly, thats usually the easiest time to fight them for most of my builds. Especially in open fields.

So no, they are not gods, but for most its no longer a l2p issue. Its a question on rather the spec has high forgiveness of mistakes based on its sustain. Not its damage. And this is not so much linked to the length of stealth or the actual way of stealthing, but the traits in SA that can make someone in dire gear have amazing sustain in situations where ambients , walls and various mobs are around to Be CnD’d from. Which is why in my argument I dont care for its balance in sPvP where the counterplay is rather high from dodging, blowing up clones at the right time and blocks.

And I am partial to the backstab breaking on block. that just seems like a huge nerf considering how many ways we have to block nowadays. The reward was the block. Sprinkling a desealth on it even without reveal just seems to be like too much of a reward. Especially when you consider how much a single CnD cost. that just pushes more people to Pistol offhand which is already a solid set when combined with Dagger mainhand.

They could add one initiative to backstab, but that sounds expensive still. so on that comment, I rather not have anything done unless they try it internally.

Cogbyrn.7283:

…

How does a warrior “time” his block? He just kind of sits there for 3s immune to stab, which taking into account reaction time and casting times, makes the warrior immune from the stab entirely. Only through the use of utilities or D/P weaponset can a thief then re-apply stealth without losing it. Swap shield when you see the thief poof and hit 5. You now have auto-immunity from stab damage. This doesn’t require any skill at all, and imho, is such an incredible hard-counter in it of itself (same with guardian’s aegis, easy blind application from other thieves, necros, and eles, and the likes) that it simply shouldn’t reward the player to such an extent, seeing as those durations already force a thief out of stealth in most cases.

The cost is shared for CnD/Powder. 60% of resources is a lot. Deny the stab and the thief will get one more shot, and then can’t do ANYTHING for several seconds of the fight except autoattack. Thing is, though, is that it’s extremely choreographed. The thief has a timer to use his attack. You’re so far away from it at the time of stealth. Are you moving? Which way? Is the thief able to react to these jukes to reposition and stab properly? Do you understand dodge frames and proper timing to dodge? These are good questions, which when answered and executed properly in the heat of battle honestly shut down thieves harder than anything else.

Your analogy is horribly flawed. Good players know exactly where the thieves are despite them being invisible. Why? Because they’ve taken the time to learn the class itself and consider their opponent’s perspective simultaneously to make decisions on how to get the upper hand in a fight. Asking for a hard-counter isn’t really a good idea. Your analogy is better paired to be something like, is it easier for any random guy to kill an elephant with the hammer versus a professional tracker to kill the squirrel. The tracker’s going to win. Why? Because despite the target being obviously harder to find, learning how to approach the target makes the encounter inevitably easier and much faster.

I’d rather see smoke fields and D/P as a weaponset reworked more than anything. D/D is one of the single most fair sets in the game, and people who deny this simply have L2P issues. Really. Understand their timers as well as yours, and how a thief will approach a situation, and you’ll win any encounter against one. D/P/smoke field blind thieves is a little over the top due to the permanent stealth access it has paired with how insanely strong blind is as a condition, and how easily it can be spammed and applied to shut down pretty much everything except necromancers. Leap + smoke should apply 1 second of stealth after landing, and the blind/smoke fields from powder should not pulse.

Consequently, torment needs a rework (or rather heal skills do), for heals designed to remove DoT effects in the base game before torment was implemented (removes burning, bleeding, poison) do not remove torment… at all. This is what has mainly allowed for P/D condi thieves to run rampant, as a D/P torment thief can get up to 15 stacks of torment and 19 stacks of bleeding within a matter of seconds (the torment can be applied in less than two). Not having the ability to cleanse the torment prevents a lot of counterplay opportunities – much moreso than stealth – seeing as the only way to deal with conditions is to remove them via traits or skills, and with so much spammage, I’d like to see this adjusted to inhibit such styles of play.

A stealth timer cap and a scaling revealed duration would also be nice. Weaving in and out of vision constantly to the point where it’s not really “stealth” but more or less untargetable/losing target is a much better solution than constant high duration periods of being out of sight. Some reworks may be warranted, but simply stating we need a loss of stealth on a whiffed attack is too overkill for builds beyond D/P.

Contrivance.7980:

Ision.3207:

The bottom line is that some players, especially those that like to roam in WvW, believe that they have some kind of “right” not to be frustrated, and since stealth and clones do just that, many (not all) re-act like frustrated children, ie, they throw a “forum tantrum”. By the way, this is NOT true of everyone, as there are many folks that do just fine in WvW solo/small group roaming on non Thief or Mesmers classes. In fact, many of them specialize in killing thieves/mesmers. But that won’t get you anywhere in these discussions, because a 16-year old tantrum thrower that just got stomped 3 strait times trying to 1v1 a thief with his PvE build, he does not want to hear it.

My sentiments exactly.

I’m on this train also, thieves and mesmers excel at roaming which is why you see so many. It’s like complaining about guards being great at zergs.