Guild Wars 2

For those entering the thread, Welcome!

Recently I began a small undertaking that is questioning the community about the Mesmer in order to gain a better focus for a Much Larger topic I would like to present (and have your help with).

Thus far I have asked Mesmer players what they feel Mesmer seems to be “Missing” and a “Role” they feel it should be filling in combat and a party. The general feel is that Mesmers are lacking in Control, and should perhaps be a more CC oriented Class.

I also Asked them what types of CC we have that fall under the 4 Sub-types of CC.
1. Hard CC
2. Soft CC
3. Denial
4. Punishment

It would seem that Mesmers contain some of everything but most of it is very difficult to Chain together and “synergize” with the way the classes traits and weapons currently work.

--------------

All this brings me now to You, dear player and forum goer, as a Mesmer, or Non Mesmer. What do you feel Mesmer should bring to a Team? What would you like to see Mesmer take a “lead” in (speaking of “roles”)?

Please be sure to List the game mode(s) to which you are referring in your posts as there is a very large difference between the 3!

PS: Please attempt to steer away from discussing PU, this is a Trait that is deserving of a thread all its own along with Stealth as a game mechanic.

~Keep it clean~

No offense but mesmers don’t need any buffs. And I don’t see how it can be difficult to chain a combo or whatever you say. Summoning AI that attacks passively doesn’t look difficult to me.

To me Mesmers are a very good dueling class, some builds being broken but that is another discussion.

Also, I think Mesmers should be the masters of interruption, reflect and confusion, and their Dazes and Stuns should wreck havoc on a team. Their boon stripping abilities should aid in doing so. ANet I feel is going towards that direction, however, the choices are very limited and very hard to achieve without sacrificing pretty much everything. And probably aren’t as effective as they should be. Problem is that a lot of this is single target, and their traitline is kind of messy. i.e: there are shatter and mantra traits everywhere, it needs to be more consolidated.

Clones I feel also need to be more effective in a zerg vs zerg scenario, but that is more of an AI problem in general.

a t s e.9614:

No offense but mesmers don’t need any buffs. And I don’t see how it can be difficult to chain a combo or whatever you say. Summoning AI that attacks passively doesn’t look difficult to me.

the mesmer hater again that cant get over it.
i agree with the op infact. as i am not seeing the 1v1 mes only as i play wvw.
and in wvw in group play this issue is quiet big. its not just that we can simply spam ai first of all atse! check those cooldowns, check the builds and then talk like a normal person and stop your hate vs mes already and get over it!get over it!!

on the topic, yes we do lack a role especially in groups and wvw. i think like op said the problem is we got stuff like some cc some punishment som condi some dmg but nothing is really specific. glamour for example was very specific and thats the reason it was so strong, but u had to give up dmg, stealth, survival, deal with long cooldowns…but it was punishing for sure. and that was a clear role the mes had. since the massive nerfs mesmer has gotten, we got nothing back apart from 1v1 stuff which mes was already decent to good at.
and i agree with killahmayne i would love to see mesmer fill the role of punishment and interrupts way more. get something of the gw1 mesmers glory back into this mess. because right now we are utility bots in wvw. we need specific group builds and yes i would rather have less ai and more aoe, cause we are squishy like casters, but cant deal aoe dmg without shatter ip trait. shatters without ip is quiet useless in wvw zergs. ai is useless vs zergs ai traits are useless vs zergs. so allow the mesmer to get builds that are less ai dependant and give us something we can contribute and other classes cant.
i think anet isnt even aware of the wvw problems and i see less and less mesmers in wvw because of this. right now even engi has found its niche in wvw.
so i dont know if cc is the answer, id rather say better interrupt traits and skills and also more punishing, maybe a confusion trait or something like this and some unnerfs and the whole thing would already look better. im happy to give up some ai or anything for that.

The mesmer is “balanced” for being strong in 1v1 and weak in group play. I don’t see how you can buff the strongest 1v1 class without making it completely broken .

Thieves also suck in wvw zergs , nobody has ever asked for buffs.

a t s e.9614:

The mesmer is “balanced” for being strong in 1v1 and weak in group play. I don’t see how you can buff the strongest 1v1 class without making it completely broken .

Thieves also suck in wvw zergs , nobody has ever asked for buffs.

What forums have you been reading?

A t s e… as per usual….

Besides abilities that are broken like iwarden, i really think mesmer is in a very good place. I have one character, a mesmer, that I’ve been playing since Beta. I honestly feel like mesmer CC does have a lot of synergy. And mesmer do have a role. It depends on how you build your character. My mesmer has a tank set and I’m pretty good at tanking. My mesmer also has a heal set and is pretty good at healing. I’m pretty good at spamming conditions if that’s what I want to do because I have a condition set also.

The only thing I would change is I would take that cooldown off of Triumphant Distortion grandmaster trait, but that’s really it. Mesmer is really in a good spot.

I mostly solo pve, solo roam wvw, spvp, and i solo queue for tpvp here and there.

edit: Well if i really think about it…. I would get rid of those two traits that increase illusions/phantasms damage by 15% each. It does seem a little cheesey since they are AI that attack passively. phantasms hit hard already on their own without those traits if you’re running bezerker gear.

selan.8354:

a t s e.9614:

No offense but mesmers don’t need any buffs. And I don’t see how it can be difficult to chain a combo or whatever you say. Summoning AI that attacks passively doesn’t look difficult to me.

the mesmer hater again that cant get over it.

Now all clear
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Most-annoying-foe/first#post4006659

Hot Boy.7138:

And mesmer do have a role. It depends on how you build your character. My mesmer has a tank set and I’m pretty good at tanking. My mesmer also has a heal set and is pretty good at healing. I’m pretty good at spamming conditions if that’s what I want to do because I have a condition set also.

Well that kind of sums it up. We don’t want to just be “pretty good” at everything. Every class can do that. We want to excel at something that not all the other classes can do. What’s so fun about doing something any other class can do arguably better?

Hot Boy.7138:

edit: Well if i really think about it…. I would get rid of those two traits that increase illusions/phantasms damage by 15% each. It does seem a little cheesey since they are AI that attack passively. phantasms hit hard already on their own without those traits if you’re running bezerker gear.

So you’re saying that you want to reduce pve mesmers damage by 15%-30%. I’m not understanding why we need to be less useful in dungeons any more than we already are. We’re mostly just brought along for reflect utility and very little else. Trying to say it’s good for pvp isn’t entirely accurate because phantasms do damage relatively slowly, and they can get taken out pretty quickly once the aoe drops in team fights.

More than anything, the Mesmer is in need of long overdue bug fixes, such as iWarden, iElasticity, and reflect-traited Temporal Curtain.

That aside, some buffs to underwhelming weapon skills such as the scepter auto-attack chain, iMage, and Mind Stab are needed.

a t s e.9614:

No offense but mesmers don’t need any buffs. And I don’t see how it can be difficult to chain a combo or whatever you say. Summoning AI that attacks passively doesn’t look difficult to me.

Ignore this guy. He posts in every thread that mentions a Mesmer, complaining about it’s “OP passive” nature because he lost to a Mesmer on his Warrior due to L2P issues.

a t s e.9614:

The mesmer is “balanced” for being strong in 1v1 and weak in group play. I don’t see how you can buff the strongest 1v1 class without making it completely broken .

Thieves also suck in wvw zergs , nobody has ever asked for buffs.

Well, then it’s a good thing that this game isn’t balanced for 1v1 at all, right? Intentionally so, might I add.

a t s e.9614:

The mesmer is “balanced” for being strong in 1v1 and weak in group play. I don’t see how you can buff the strongest 1v1 class without making it completely broken .

Thieves also suck in wvw zergs , nobody has ever asked for buffs.

Unfortunately 1v1 is not a game mode, nor is it a frequent occurrence. your point is invalid. The context of the discussion really needs to be relative to group play.

dancingmonkey.4902:

a t s e.9614:

The mesmer is “balanced” for being strong in 1v1 and weak in group play. I don’t see how you can buff the strongest 1v1 class without making it completely broken .

Thieves also suck in wvw zergs , nobody has ever asked for buffs.

Unfortunately 1v1 is not a game mode, nor is it a frequent occurrence. your point is invalid. The context of the discussion really needs to be relative to group play.

this so much. its horrible game design to balance a class around 1v1 only. also i think its a bad design to make a light aremor class a pet duelist only class. a light armor class needs viable aoe options which mesmer is lacking greatly since the confusion nerf. i play wvw and yes i face masssive mapblobs of around 60. and no im not playing my mesmer during that. i play my necro or ele cause mes is not viavle in such an encounter and especially if u are outnumbered and zergbust.
1v1 is not a game mode. wvw is!and we are lacking there a lot.

Thank you for turning the discussion back around <3

So, just to throw a bit of suggestions,

How would you feel if Mesmers could grant AoE retaliation (to their party) via shatters instead of Vigor?

Would that change how you handle encounters (in a group vs group situation) if your party, the opposing party had a Mesmer?

Or

If Mesmers were given a trait/skill that caused chain daze on Interrupt? Example: interrupted target causes short range AoE daze to other foes (other foes then interrupted in turn, cause AoE daze).

Would that alter the Stack and Spank meta of WvW? Would you find more use for a Mesmer or multiple Mesmers running with you?

Raunchy.6891:

Hot Boy.7138:

And mesmer do have a role. It depends on how you build your character. My mesmer has a tank set and I’m pretty good at tanking. My mesmer also has a heal set and is pretty good at healing. I’m pretty good at spamming conditions if that’s what I want to do because I have a condition set also.

Well that kind of sums it up. We don’t want to just be “pretty good” at everything. Every class can do that. We want to excel at something that not all the other classes can do. What’s so fun about doing something any other class can do arguably better?

Hot Boy.7138:

edit: Well if i really think about it…. I would get rid of those two traits that increase illusions/phantasms damage by 15% each. It does seem a little cheesey since they are AI that attack passively. phantasms hit hard already on their own without those traits if you’re running bezerker gear.

So you’re saying that you want to reduce pve mesmers damage by 15%-30%. I’m not understanding why we need to be less useful in dungeons any more than we already are. We’re mostly just brought along for reflect utility and very little else. Trying to say it’s good for pvp isn’t entirely accurate because phantasms do damage relatively slowly, and they can get taken out pretty quickly once the aoe drops in team fights.

Our auto auto attack and/or another active skill on the weapon set could be buffed to compensate. Which really is way better in my opinion. Clones die pretty quickly, so it’ll be less punishing if they die right away if our auto attack does more damage. Second, skills that you have to actively use should do more damage than passive ones you just use and forget about. It would be a good change for pve and pvp. So yeah, I’m definitely all for removing those traits that buff phantasm damage by 30%.

a t s e.9614:

By that logic thieves also need massive buffs then. A class doesn’t need to be good at everything and shouldn’t . Guards are the best support class and the most effective in blobs, however in 1v1 they suck. I would call it balanced.

I’m sure there’s more than a handful of guards that can attest that they do not, with proper build, suck in 1v1 what so ever…

Regardless, if you are not here to add to the conversation, but rather, detract from allowing a healthy conversation to take place.. i would suggest you spend your time elsewhere and on different topics.

Please and thank you in advance.

Edit: This will be the first, only and final time I will address you and grant you any attention in this or any topic hence forth.

Trading relative power/impact/importance of phantasms (and possibly clones) in exchange for greater effectiveness for Mesmer centered abilities seems like a very logical thing to do given the context of this discussion. Such a change should immediately increase the Mesmer’s effectiveness in WvW to some degree as well as reduce its 1v1 potential to some degree. It would be a fair trade for the WvWers and for opponents who detest the Mesmer’s mechanics without reducing (in theory) the profession’s overall capabilities … just play style.

For better or worse I don’t think the developers would institute such a change. Not only would it require a great deal of re-balancing throughout all aspects of the profession, but it would also detract from their concept for the profession. The phantasm/clone mechanic is a punishment mechanic at its core, though its effectiveness can be debated (i.e. go after the phantasm or the Mesmer, or go after the Mesmer’s shatter resource or the Mesmer).

I feel the plight of WvW Mesmers because this set up is without question less effective with increasing number of opponents.

I have heard that WvW Mesmers feel like utility bots, or veil bots, or what have you. So my question is: why is this necessarily a bad thing? It sounds like a role to me, so I do not think I understand the situation fully. I would appreciate any clarification that could be offered as I feel truly ignorant. Although glamours do not wreck folks like they used to, they still seem amazingly useful, particularly in a WvW setting. Is it more a case of Mesmers have a use/role/function in WvW, but its just a matter that most WvW Mesmers would rather be doing something else?

a t s e.9614:

By that logic thieves also need massive buffs then. A class doesn’t need to be good at everything and shouldn’t . Guards are the best support class and the most effective in blobs, however in 1v1 they suck. I would call it balanced.

Mesmer is the opposite, its the best 1v1 class but they lack an important role for group play. If you wanna zerg just play another class I don’t see where’s the problem .

When I PvE , I always take my warrior, I’m not gonna complain about my engineer that is useless in PvE.

u really just dont get it do u?thief is very well represented in wvw. they even have better aoe than mes and guess what?thif fills the role of ganker and is fairly important to have. mes is veilbot.
and only because we are good in 1v1, doesnt mean that we are not allowed to be good in zergs and viable like everyone else. it does make no sense to design a class that u can only use in 1 gmae mode which is spvp atm, cause verywhere else the lck of group skills and builds shows.
and i really dont care if u take another class in pve, because honestly i also think engi and necro need both help in pve, same as thieves. in wvw rangers and mes need help and also necro needs a few helpful tweaks.
i know atse u hate mesmers and u just keep going with your blind childish hate, but if u would have plaeyed a mes back when glamour was viabe u would understand why wvw mes are unhappy now.
no one in here cares if u have a personal problem with mes and in your case it really is a big l2p issue.
what u do ats, u play your main class u die to this one mes that beats u over and over and now u want to prevent other mesmers to get buffs because u are turning a blind eye on actual issues.
u like dueling, fine!
i like wvw zergbusting and my class has no more role because of countless nerfs and countless buffs to other classes while mes never got anything back. do u think i want to play pu? nope, id rather have a real wvw build which u would never face because for example u would never see a glam mesmer in spvp, but u would see them in wvw.
u cant be that selfish and try to ruin the game for everyone only because u lost to a mes and hate them now.
so please stop posting in every mes forum post u see, noone cares about your hate speech and also stop posting in threads without contributing to the actual discussion! and 1 big important thing: GET OVER IT!

Allarius.5670:

I have heard that WvW Mesmers feel like utility bots, or veil bots, or what have you. So my question is: why is this necessarily a bad thing? It sounds like a role to me, so I do not think I understand the situation fully. I would appreciate any clarification that could be offered as I feel truly ignorant. Although glamours do not wreck folks like they used to, they still seem amazingly useful, particularly in a WvW setting. Is it more a case of Mesmers have a use/role/function in WvW, but its just a matter that most WvW Mesmers would rather be doing something else?

so putting down 1 veil every 60 seconds while not being able to do anything else is a role to u? u kidding right? thats absolutely no role at all whatsoever!!especially because mes used to be the ultimate punishing class in wvw. we punished mindelss zergs for facerolling their keyboard and mes groups were feared back then…and now vel, tw ..and then stand with the casters while not haveing aoe dmg unless u spec into ip. so thats what a role sounds to u?seriously?play it for 1 week and tell me how much fun this kitten is for u!
believe me u would give u pu and every stupid phantasm to get my old viable wvw mes back! u can have every pu, stealth and all that stuff back if u give me a viable wvw build with non ai aoe again like glamour was! and u can have alll my 1v1 kitten in return!

@Allarius

You seem to have answered your own question in your post but let’s attempt an explanation.

From a purely wvw perspective, mesmers core mechanics become less and less useful as the number of combatants increases. Clones and phantasms die off and limit damage potential. Similar to rangers with dead pets this reduces our damage output and build options.

As confusion as a condition was needed pretty heavily game wide it’s looking at a more annoyance type of condition than the previous panic inducing condition. Even in very large stacks.

Mesmers suffer from very low aoe potential, most of it tied up in shatters or staff.

So yes, while having a utility role is indeed a role, how much fun is it really to know that your class is hindered, by design, in very large scale combat scenarios? Would you be satisfied if your main toon could only play this one role, which is using the utility side of your skill bar, and the rest would not matter or potentially even be appreciated by your team?

Even glamor was itself a utility bases build, it did not rely on clones or phants or shatters. At the time the Mesmers strongest build in wvw was that which ignored anets “intent” for our core mechanics.

Does that help?

Swish.2463:

@Allarius

You seem to have answered your own question in your post but let’s attempt an explanation.

From a purely wvw perspective, mesmers core mechanics become less and less useful as the number of combatants increases. Clones and phantasms die off and limit damage potential. Similar to rangers with dead pets this reduces our damage output and build options.

As confusion as a condition was needed pretty heavily game wide it’s looking at a more annoyance type of condition than the previous panic inducing condition. Even in very large stacks.

Mesmers suffer from very low aoe potential, most of it tied up in shatters or staff.

So yes, while having a utility role is indeed a role, how much fun is it really to know that your class is hindered, by design, in very large scale combat scenarios? Would you be satisfied if your main toon could only play this one role, which is using the utility side of your skill bar, and the rest would not matter or potentially even be appreciated by your team?

Even glamor was itself a utility bases build, it did not rely on clones or phants or shatters. At the time the Mesmers strongest build in wvw was that which ignored anets “intent” for our core mechanics.

Does that help?

really well said. sory english is my 4th language but thats sorta what i am trying to say.anet did something right with the wvw mes in the beginning before all the nerfs hit. now did the aoe we had with glamour affect spvp balance?nope, believe me i tried glam in spvp before the nerfs and no no way op or viable. glam was a zerg build and gave us a role and was perfect vs mindless spamming zergs. i would happily give up pu for a new wvw build like this.
i still think that making a lightarmor class a 1v1 pet dueling class is wrong…then make us medium armor at least or take a look at previously nerfed traits and skills and unnerf and maybe rework this class..too many bugs make things really tough in wvw.

I apologize if I have somehow offended any of you, this was not my intention and is why I admitted ignorance and asked for clarification. I am only trying to understand the situation, which I think is important to the cause of the discussion and for other readers who may not be fully familiar.

I agree, throwing down a utility skill every 60 seconds or so does not sound like fun, but I was thinking of an overarching “utility” role. I don’t know how WvW Mesmers build, but I was thinking (perhaps wrongfully) that a utility role would include reflection (i.e. feedback and traited temporal curtain), null field, and choice of portal or veil depending on what was needed. I would take scepter/focus and staff. As a utility role damage would be secondary to support (i.e. protection/punishment via reflection, condition/boon strip for the front line, troop redeployment via portal, chaos storm for support, etc.).

To me that sounds like it could be fun and would feel as though I had an important role that contributes to the greater success of the group. But it is true, it is only partially punishment oriented: reflection, temporal curtain secondary effect to punish bad positioning, portal tricks to punish poor deployment, etc.

Clone/phantasm death really does seem like an unfortunate circumstance, but also an unavoidable one. Maybe the developers are trying to do something about it already: as far as I know boon on shatter traits are not impacted by clone/phantasm number with the exception of shattered strength. I don’t think a boon share build in a zerg will be all that great though.

What about an interrupt build for zerg spamming punishment? Staff for chaos storm dazes, focus for the curtain pull … there is also the potential for AOE daze through the use of Mirror Blade/Scepter Auto/Illusionary Counter/Illusionary Riposte with Imbued Diversion. Again, not sure how effective this may be in practice, but the potential for three ranged aoe interrupts along with some Mesmer interrupt traits sounds like it would be fun to at least try.

u didnt offend us at all allarius, but here is the problems i experience:

support role:
well we have nullfield 40 sec cd that cleanes condis per pulse and rips boons. its okish but then again long cd and doesnt deal dmg unless traited glamour. then we have necros that can throw down well off corruption and deal massive dmg aswell.
we can share boons and rip boons with shatter. again shatter doesnt work well without ip trait and most of the shatters spec for dmg and not boonrip. boonsharing and granting is the guardians job.

interrrupt builds:
the nerf to temporal curtain made the skill fail often and chaos storm is too rng as u never know if chaosstorm deals daze or not plus there is a lot of stability in zergs.
problem is that chaos storm is rng and u are lucky if it dazes and interrupts, and then we also have a real nice cd of 35 seconds which is more than meteor shower and way less effective in a zerg than meteorshower. dmg is terrible too.

illusionary counter doesnt interrupt it inflicts torment vs 1 target again 1 target,mirror blade doesnt interrupt, scepter auto is the worst auto attack ever and doesnt interrupt illusionary riposte interrupts and is good vs single target no aoe though= again not useful in a zerg.
now you could trait ip and interrupt with f 3 shatter but it mainly hits one target and then the worst part is that u can trait diversion to hit multiple targets but then again its a gm trait where u have to take ip trait.
shatters are good in 1v1 if not traited with ip, but in a zerg most of my shatters wont make it because the ai dies while running after the target.

i would love to get non ai based aoe…something i can trait for like necro can make wells groundtargeted it would be nice to have a trait that makes certain skills aoe aoe interrupts…i think though if ip was better placed in the traitlines, wvw mes could maybe spec for better wvw viability. yeah and maybe fixing all our bugs (i really would like to be able to hit stuff on walls and oil buildside…and my iwarden and ileap and clones to work the way they are supposed to) could be a start….

I think overall our design fits a mixed small~large group play rather well.

The issue in basic design principles. Should be defence be based around my clones confusing my enemies? In that case I’m fine with my lack of personal defence, but then I need my clones to be better. Much better. Actually be convincing and make people waste attacks on them.

Thank you for the walk through Selan, this was very informative. I appreciate you taking the time to spell it out for me.

The skills I listed do not interrupt on their own, but combined with the Imbued Diversion trait (6 in Illusions I think) there is some potential for aoe daze. These skills generate the clone at the target (I think), allowing (in theory) to summon and shatter for aoe diversion in quick succession. But it would not be a short cooldown, and it seems like aoe interrupts are not likely to be effective due to rampant stability

Just a thought- being that illusions already are intrinsically tied to one enemy(they disappears when the target dies), and therefore thematically are likely to only exists in the target’s head, what if clones could only be damaged by their main target and were hazy, insubstantial, and tinted some color for all other enemies(something to make it immediately obvious if you aren’t the player capable of damaging the clone)?

This change obviously couldn’t be applied to phantasms since for instance the phantasmal warden has effects hat apply to a large number of enemies- but making it so only one enemy has the potential to kill a given clone provides a simple means for mesmers to actually have access to their illusions in group PvP scenarios.

This would be a tremendous asset to shatter builds as well as builds that seek to use staffclones or sharper images on clones to apply conditions in a team PvP enviroment. It would also make all of the “compounding” traits better in a group pvp scenario since maintaining 2-3 would actually be realistic.

Well a less extreme method could be to do the same thing, but only provide immunity to AoE damage caused by enemies besides the main target, since it’s frequently passive zerg AOE that insta-kills illusions anyway.

Imbued diversion is bad, even with 6 points in shred diversion still has a 34 sec cooldown and thats hoping your clones make it through aoe.

in small groups and solo, interrupt has some potential, but its just silly unless you want a challenge. why? Hammer warriors outclass by a mile. even untraited has faster recharge then mesmers avg 25 sec interrupt skill recharge on top of higher survivablity via hp pool and armor.

zest.4192:

Just a thought- being that illusions already are intrinsically tied to one enemy(they disappears when the target dies), and therefore thematically are likely to only exists in the target’s head, what if clones could only be damaged by their main target and were hazy, insubstantial, and tinted some color for all other enemies(something to make it immediately obvious if you aren’t the player capable of damaging the clone)?

This change obviously couldn’t be applied to phantasms since for instance the phantasmal warden has effects hat apply to a large number of enemies- but making it so only one enemy has the potential to kill a given clone provides a simple means for mesmers to actually have access to their illusions in group PvP scenarios.

This would be a tremendous asset to shatter builds as well as builds that seek to use staffclones or sharper images on clones to apply conditions in a team PvP enviroment. It would also make all of the “compounding” traits better in a group pvp scenario since maintaining 2-3 would actually be realistic.

Well a less extreme method could be to do the same thing, but only provide immunity to AoE damage caused by enemies besides the main target, since it’s frequently passive zerg AOE that insta-kills illusions anyway.

This sounds hard to implement but it’s a good idea i hadn’t even considered. Ensuring our clones could remain up or make it to their destination would help with shatters and some of the Phantasms AoE.

I’m not sure how this would balance out in sPvP, tho it would make pressure on single targets more interesting it may end up being OP.

Still its good for thought.

a t s e.9614:

selan.8354:

a t s e.9614:

By that logic thieves also need massive buffs then. A class doesn’t need to be good at everything and shouldn’t . Guards are the best support class and the most effective in blobs, however in 1v1 they suck. I would call it balanced.

Mesmer is the opposite, its the best 1v1 class but they lack an important role for group play. If you wanna zerg just play another class I don’t see where’s the problem .

When I PvE , I always take my warrior, I’m not gonna complain about my engineer that is useless in PvE.

u really just dont get it do u?thief is very well represented in wvw. they even have better aoe than mes and guess what?thif fills the role of ganker and is fairly important to have. mes is veilbot.
and only because we are good in 1v1, doesnt mean that we are not allowed to be good in zergs and viable like everyone else. it does make no sense to design a class that u can only use in 1 gmae mode which is spvp atm, cause verywhere else the lck of group skills and builds shows.
and i really dont care if u take another class in pve, because honestly i also think engi and necro need both help in pve, same as thieves. in wvw rangers and mes need help and also necro needs a few helpful tweaks.
i know atse u hate mesmers and u just keep going with your blind childish hate, but if u would have plaeyed a mes back when glamour was viabe u would understand why wvw mes are unhappy now.
no one in here cares if u have a personal problem with mes and in your case it really is a big l2p issue.
what u do ats, u play your main class u die to this one mes that beats u over and over and now u want to prevent other mesmers to get buffs because u are turning a blind eye on actual issues.
u like dueling, fine!
i like wvw zergbusting and my class has no more role because of countless nerfs and countless buffs to other classes while mes never got anything back. do u think i want to play pu? nope, id rather have a real wvw build which u would never face because for example u would never see a glam mesmer in spvp, but u would see them in wvw.
u cant be that selfish and try to ruin the game for everyone only because u lost to a mes and hate them now.
so please stop posting in every mes forum post u see, noone cares about your hate speech and also stop posting in threads without contributing to the actual discussion! and 1 big important thing: GET OVER IT!

Just reroll a staff guard for zerging dude. There’s no way a mesmer will become useful in large scale fights no matter how you buff it.

well acually u are wrong, again. there is many many ways to fix wvw zerg mesmers. plus we used to be useful in zergs during glamour times. i dont wanna reroll because anet fails my favorite class over and over in the game mode i love the most. but i play my necro noe instead of my mesmer as my guild leader decided to give me a veilbot break(yay).
in order to help wvw mes, all we need is a non ai heavy build like glamour was., which mean mes needs a new form of dealing aoe dmg that isnt rng like chaosstorm or shatters that fail.

Swish.2463:

zest.4192:

Just a thought- being that illusions already are intrinsically tied to one enemy(they disappears when the target dies), and therefore thematically are likely to only exists in the target’s head, what if clones could only be damaged by their main target and were hazy, insubstantial, and tinted some color for all other enemies(something to make it immediately obvious if you aren’t the player capable of damaging the clone)?

This change obviously couldn’t be applied to phantasms since for instance the phantasmal warden has effects hat apply to a large number of enemies- but making it so only one enemy has the potential to kill a given clone provides a simple means for mesmers to actually have access to their illusions in group PvP scenarios.

This would be a tremendous asset to shatter builds as well as builds that seek to use staffclones or sharper images on clones to apply conditions in a team PvP enviroment. It would also make all of the “compounding” traits better in a group pvp scenario since maintaining 2-3 would actually be realistic.

Well a less extreme method could be to do the same thing, but only provide immunity to AoE damage caused by enemies besides the main target, since it’s frequently passive zerg AOE that insta-kills illusions anyway.

This sounds hard to implement but it’s a good idea i hadn’t even considered. Ensuring our clones could remain up or make it to their destination would help with shatters and some of the Phantasms AoE.

I’m not sure how this would balance out in sPvP, tho it would make pressure on single targets more interesting it may end up being OP.

Still its good for thought.

honestly, the only thing that safes ms in wvw is non ai build options like glamour was. sahtters wont help as we are bound to ip in wvw if u wanna viable shatter, phantasms do hit a few targets u can pick off, but again bugs,cc and aoe affect them so its not good in wvw.
but the real problem we have now is that we are strong in 1v1 only and if they dont split balance between wvw and spvp, i see very little hope for the mes to ever be really viable in wvw again.
glamour was strong during the time anet split spvp and wvw blance and honestly, things were not amazingly balanced, but there was no perma immobilize, perma cc, perma fear and things were more fun even for rangers. i used to see a ton of rangers in wvw and yes we had whole mesmer guild that would go glamour zergbusting and it was fun to see how people kept spamming and killing themselfes on confusion.
i agree glam should have been shaved a little, but anet did never just shafe the mesmer, they flat out nerf it. chaosarmor, temporal curtain, blurred frenzy, blinding befuddlement, confusion..etc and then anet dropped the ball because all they saw afterwards is the spvp mesmer that can wreck u in a duel. they forgot that there was a strong wvw mes once.
u cant just nerf all core wvw mechanics of a class and then only give us 1v1 stuff in return!
as for now, i have sorta given up on my mes and moved on to necro and ele.

Swish.2463:

For those entering the thread, Welcome!

Recently I began a small undertaking that is questioning the community about the Mesmer in order to gain a better focus for a Much Larger topic I would like to present (and have your help with).

Thus far I have asked Mesmer players what they feel Mesmer seems to be “Missing” and a “Role” they feel it should be filling in combat and a party. The general feel is that Mesmers are lacking in Control, and should perhaps be a more CC oriented Class.

I also Asked them what types of CC we have that fall under the 4 Sub-types of CC.
1. Hard CC
2. Soft CC
3. Denial
4. Punishment

It would seem that Mesmers contain some of everything but most of it is very difficult to Chain together and “synergize” with the way the classes traits and weapons currently work.

--------------

All this brings me now to You, dear player and forum goer, as a Mesmer, or Non Mesmer. What do you feel Mesmer should bring to a Team? What would you like to see Mesmer take a “lead” in (speaking of “roles”)?

Please be sure to List the game mode(s) to which you are referring in your posts as there is a very large difference between the 3!

PS: Please attempt to steer away from discussing PU, this is a Trait that is deserving of a thread all its own along with Stealth as a game mechanic.

~Keep it clean~

What difference does it make what the players want or feel?

The player base has felt that warriors have been overpowered for almost a year now. However, the developers, who are so much more intelligent, well-informed, talented and learned in the workings of this game (and all other games for that matter!) believe that warriors are well balanced. They also believe healing signet is fine.

The Mesmer community has said for almost a year that Mesmers are not viable in the meta. However, this matters not to the developers for they know better than the community.

Why do you think ANet is suddenly going to stand up and listen now? Why do you think the ANet “development team” is going to suddenly come to the realization they need to listen to the community?

Mesmers in GW2 are nowhere near as interesting as GW1.

They went too far down the clone/invis path and didn’t put in enough feedback/power drain/confusion mechanics.

Mesmers need more interrupt, cooldown manipulation, feedback mechanics, especially AE, a AE skill that does nothing but add +X seconds to ability cooldowns would be amazing.

Single target skills that put an interrupt debuff on your opponent, if they use a skill during that period its interrupted and put on CD so the enemy has to see the debuff and quickly decide to sacrifice a short CD skill to protect a bigger skill or wait it out.

Basically tone down the invis/clone angle and go back and look at the awesome list of skills mesmers had in GW1, endless inspiration there.

Thedenofsin: The problem with your analogy is that the player base is only universal in considering warriors most powerful in PvE. It may have changed, but I have seen people saying they’re a bit lacking in sPvP in particular, and I wouldn’t consider them to be great in blob versus blob either. The problem there is refusal to split skills according to game mode.

a t s e.9614:

By that logic thieves also need massive buffs then. A class doesn’t need to be good at everything and shouldn’t . Guards are the best support class and the most effective in blobs, however in 1v1 they suck. I would call it balanced.

Mesmer is the opposite, its the best 1v1 class but they lack an important role for group play. If you wanna zerg just play another class I don’t see where’s the problem .

If we’re talking about zerg versus zerg in WvW…

Thieves have one of the best ‘bouncing’ autoattacks around – not as good as a large AoE autoattack, true, but there are few of those among any of the professions. The shortbow also gives them a decent AoE in Cluster Bomb. In the broader WvW picture, the thief is probably the profession with the most ability to escape an unfavourable situation (which is probably less important now that armour repair costs are no longer a thing, but it is still a consideration). They’re one of the more fragile professions, admittedly, but mesmers are at about the same level.

Let me get this straight, a class that has:
– multiple invulnerabilities and stealth
- deception skills that affect the player (as opposed to the character itself)
- easy access to stealing/removing boons and applying conditions and interrupts
- easy access to playstyles such as “sit back and watch the AI”

And it needs to be told what role you have? It’s the same role as Warrior mostly, i.e. frontal fighter.

What kind of trinity role would you want?

Swim.6830:

Let me get this straight, a class that has:
– multiple invulnerabilities and stealth
- deception skills that affect the player (as opposed to the character itself)
- easy access to stealing/removing boons and applying conditions and interrupts
- easy access to playstyles such as “sit back and watch the AI”

And it needs to be told what role you have? It’s the same role as Warrior mostly, i.e. frontal fighter.

What kind of trinity role would you want?

I would love to see this, A Mesmer Frontal Fighter. you go ahead and equip your sword and you blurred frenzy the Zerg, but after 3 seconds, you WILL die. FAST!

Mesmer’s want one thing, to be able to go into a Zerg without the need to be a “utility bot”

zest.4192:

what if clones could only be damaged by their main target and were hazy, insubstantial, and tinted some color for all other enemies

While I think this is a creative and interesting idea, there are some inherent weaknesses to it: Does every enemy has his own three illusions to fight? If not, what happens to unbound enemies if Debilitating Dissipation triggers, are they changed to be single-target? Who can kill unbound clones from Deceptive Evasion and the likes? Etc, etc.

Velektrian.5491:

I would love to see this, A Mesmer Frontal Fighter.

Yeah, a caster class steamrolling everything… /shrug

The game is —fortunately -- not balanced around zerg game-play. In small scale (team death-match, duels, roaming funzies, etc) and coordinated large scale combat (GvG, open field) mesmers can fill several niches: boon stripping, interrupts, lock-down, diversion and heavy (single target) damage. I experienced how efficient a mesmer can be in shutting down other players (including me), and I also played with mesmers in a focus group which did not only help in locking down the enemies’ focus groups, support builds and range damage dealers, but also dealt stupid amounts of damage.

If all you want is zerging (i.e. pain train steamrolling), mesmer may just not be your thing: go GWEN.
In every other, more competitive mode and scheme you’ll find a role which mesmers can excel at. You don’t play this game on your own but with team mates who should provide support in situations in which your build is lacking (e.g. condition removal, baseline damage mitigation, etc). Please stop trying to argue you’d need 6/6/6/6/6, hard-hitting illusions with stupid amounts of HP or even more or stronger lock-down mechanisms to be competitive. Mesmers are in a good place right now, it’s just that PU condi, PU phantasm and dueling shatter (assassin/zerker gear) builds aren’t that efficient (almost-insta-kills, condition spam, perma-lockdown, etc) in team environments like PvP and small scale WvW if the other team runs a well-rounded setup and knows how to play and communicate.

“Mesmers are in a good place but their builds aren’t that efficient” so why play mesmer?

bro our teammates already make up our lacking area which is running into multiples with our majority 1 target skills. Clearly you choose ele, guard and teef because you know how insane op damaging time warp, veil, and portal are.

lol lockdown mesmer, a war with a hammer can do that role far superiorly and have better survivability

My mesmer has a role in WvW.

I usualy play with staff/GS glamour mesmer. Blind and confusion on glamours skills (veil, null field and feedback). You can use null field and after staff 5 to control/damage and to alow your guild members to CC the enemy.

I can mitigate a lot of damage for me and my team by blinding the enemy with a well played null field, feedback or veil.

In my opinion only the confusion should be a little stronger because its only a problem when you have 3+ mesmers spaming glamours on the enemy.

The thing is i dont feel a veil boot when i play my mesmer because i do much more than that.

silentnight warrior.2714:

My mesmer has a role in WvW.

I usualy play with staff/GS glamour mesmer. Blind and confusion on glamours skills (veil, null field and feedback). You can use null field and after staff 5 to control/damage and to alow your guild members to CC the enemy.

I can mitigate a lot of damage for me and my team by blinding the enemy with a well played null field, feedback or veil.

In my opinion only the confusion should be a little stronger because its only a problem when you have 3+ mesmers spaming glamours on the enemy.

The thing is i dont feel a veil boot when i play my mesmer because i do much more than that.

glamour is not viable anymore, tried it and the bb nerf kills this build including the ridiculously low dmg of confusion. mes has to sacrifice a lot in order to get good stacks before the nerf, now after bb nerf, this build is no longer good and hardly a role or viable. blind u say, sorry but this spot is already filled by other professions. nullfield is again a utility on a lonf cooldown and chaos storm is rng, that doesnt hit much.
nullfield deals no dmg, rips boons yes(which necro does way better while they corrupt the boons and also deal a massive amount of aoe dmg) and cleanses condis(which ele and war clean 10 fast and better and on lower cooldown)

i did try glamour build and hybrid builds after the nerfs and sorry but they are really not viable or deal a good amount of dmg anymore. u can still tag a little but i get 10 times more lootbags on my necro and survive 16 times longer in a zergfight on my necro while i actually do help the team a ton with wells and aoe dmg.

echo.2053:

bro our teammates already make up our lacking area which is running into multiples with our majority 1 target skills.

There are several weapons on other professions which only hit single targets with most abilities except for 1 or 2 skills, but well – yeah, let’s forget that. Also let us forget that those spells usually hit quite hard or have some great utility.

echo.2053:

Clearly you choose ele, guard and teef because you know how insane op damaging time warp, veil, and portal are.

Most good mesmer players I play with or against usually slot none or at most one of those utilities / elites. Go figure.
And yes, I chose my main professions because they don’t have time warp, veil and portals

btw: TW is awesome for nukes, confusion bombs and disco fox (chaos armor)

echo.2053:

lol lockdown mesmer, a war with a hammer can do that role far superiorly and have better survivability

Hammer warriors are predictable and easily countered by stability and protection. A well played lock-down / boon-shatter mesmer is not, has good range pressure and a well rounded mix of hard- and soft-CC and at least one instant interrupt and invulnerability (with IP).
I also think mesmers – if played correctly – have far superior survivability compared to warriors in team fights. That’s just my experience from extensive roaming (2-5 vs eq). YMMV.

In terms of spvp most classes are balanced… there are still problems with a few mesmer skills. But you will always get warriors crying over being beaten because they are all but invincible in wvw.

In terms of wvw the mesmer is seriously broken. Skill failure is the biggest cause of me losing roaming small group fights. In terms of zerg the mesmer has literally become the Sacrx definition – null field and veil… to which I will add feedback to kill omega golems.

Even portal can now be done better by a necro exploit that does not seem to be against the rules of the game.

The new skill changes have made mesmers more survivable but they rely on team members to kill foes for a large part of that survivability because the damage output of a mesmer is so poor.

It is difficult to say what needs fixing because it is difficult to see what kind of damage is actually being done by conditions and retaliation. But my impression is that there is still not enough damage output to make the mesmer viable for wvw. Everything can be done better by other classes.

I would like to see Anet take some time to play the mesmer outside of spvp and see for themselves what needs to be fixed because at the moment there is an awful lot not working – skills, traits, and game play in general. Even the elite skill of changing people into a moa now has more chance of killing the mesmer than it has the foe. It would be useful for the Anet team to see the mesmer in GW1 in action and then look at how that can be replicated in GW2.

Anton.1769:

selan.8354:

a t s e.9614:

No offense but mesmers don’t need any buffs. And I don’t see how it can be difficult to chain a combo or whatever you say. Summoning AI that attacks passively doesn’t look difficult to me.

the mesmer hater again that cant get over it.

Now all clear
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Most-annoying-foe/first#post4006659

hahahahahahaha. if the warrior can’t kill it it must need a nerf! love it. unfortunately anet will probably listen to these tryhards, since they represent more of the playerbase than any of the other classes.

maeggle.6021:

)

echo.2053:

lol lockdown mesmer, a war with a hammer can do that role far superiorly and have better survivability

Hammer warriors are predictable and easily countered by stability and protection. A well played lock-down / boon-shatter mesmer is not, has good range pressure and a well rounded mix of hard- and soft-CC and at least one instant interrupt and invulnerability (with IP).
I also think mesmers – if played correctly – have far superior survivability compared to warriors in team fights. That’s just my experience from extensive roaming (2-5 vs eq). YMMV.

Counter with stability, you spiked my interest there….where is this mesmer getting his stability? I seriously doubt his is carrying Moc ( mesmers only form of stabilty) for 2 secs of stab. If your saying he is getting it from an outside source well duh, any fight is made easy when you have a buff machine pumping out buffs, that doesnt make a class more viable.

war hammer stuns have a cd of 10-30 secs, while mesmer interrupts have an avg of 25 sec cds making it more important that a lockdown mesmer not to miss.. stability and endure pain counters stuns too. If the war does mess up he has a high hp pool, an uninterruptable heal, dogged march and cleasing ire to deal with cripples and immobilize. They can take lemongrass and melandru runes without a need to worry about reduced damage. keep in mind this entire time ive only been mentioning hammer skills, havent even mentioned what their secondary weapon set could be as well as including bulls rush into the fray.

i mostly solo roam, as a mesmer

Mesmers biggest two problems are: 1) Many of the phantasms are still quite buggy, some of the bugs have been around since launch. 2) The anet devs seem to keep tossing the mesmer in totally different directions. At launch, you saw a lot more different builds, especially since confusion was actually useful in pvp/pve. This is why things like the torch phantasm is all but useless. It seems like every “balance” patch, the devs toss the class into a different direction. First they wanted confusion, then no confusion, then support, then stopped, them mantra, then stopped, then interrupt, etc. It’s also clear that this is probably because none of the balance development team actually play mesmer (in their last live stream they stated what they played). Our trait lines are an absolute mess, with little synergy. Things are kind of spread all over the place right now.

Mesmers don’t need a buff. We need a rework. Our trait lines need to be reworked so they make sense (i.e. don’t have signet traits in a bunch of different trait lines, same with mantra). After playing warrior, thief and engi, it seems like my mesmer really has to min/max. I never really noticed until I played those other classes. We also need all the bugs that have been around for a year or more to finally be fixed!! iZerk becomes useless if it spins and gets stuck in a rock…

I agree with Handin to an extent. A lot of the skills are really buggy/wonky and the Mesmer profession desperately needs a unified direction and an overhaul, just like the Necromancer does.

What I do argue is that the last thing this game’s PvP needs right now is more daze and stun. I don’t mind learning when and how to dodge/block what clones/phantasms skills, but I do mind if I get chainstunned from 100 to 0, just as an example.

Oakwind.6187:

I agree with Handin to an extent. A lot of the skills are really buggy/wonky and the Mesmer profession desperately needs a unified direction and an overhaul, just like the Necromancer does.

What I do argue is that the last thing this game’s PvP needs right now is more daze and stun. I don’t mind learning when and how to dodge/block what clones/phantasms skills, but I do mind if I get chainstunned from 100 to 0, just as an example.

I feel you have a valid point about no more stun/daze to an extent.

Stability runs fairly rampant in sPvP on many “cheese” builds across multiple classes, and Defiant in PvE ruins these effects entirely. As hard as it is to chain stun, Longer chains probably is not the answer, specifically when they are all single target only..

Handin.4032:

Mesmers biggest two problems are: 1) Many of the phantasms are still quite buggy, some of the bugs have been around since launch. 2) The anet devs seem to keep tossing the mesmer in totally different directions. At launch, you saw a lot more different builds, especially since confusion was actually useful in pvp/pve. This is why things like the torch phantasm is all but useless. It seems like every “balance” patch, the devs toss the class into a different direction. First they wanted confusion, then no confusion, then support, then stopped, them mantra, then stopped, then interrupt, etc. It’s also clear that this is probably because none of the balance development team actually play mesmer (in their last live stream they stated what they played). Our trait lines are an absolute mess, with little synergy. Things are kind of spread all over the place right now.

Mesmers don’t need a buff. We need a rework. Our trait lines need to be reworked so they make sense (i.e. don’t have signet traits in a bunch of different trait lines, same with mantra). After playing warrior, thief and engi, it seems like my mesmer really has to min/max. I never really noticed until I played those other classes. We also need all the bugs that have been around for a year or more to finally be fixed!! iZerk becomes useless if it spins and gets stuck in a rock…

agree with this somewhat too. im not asking for a buff, im asking for rework as the mes in its current form is not what i can use in wvw. we used to be good in wvw zergplay. we no vailbots, we were actually feared and yes we dealt a ton of dmg. now its hard to find a build that can help in wvw. i lke some traits of shatter and thats why i went back to it as i dont need stupid ai to deal dmg or be even able to use any of the shatters successfully. but im bound to ip for that, which limits the whole build diversity.
glam non viable and event those traits are in weird spots. the traits need to be updated,reworked and put in a better order. skills need to be updated, reworked,cd need to be looked at, lots of bugs need to be fixed and honestly a few nefs need to be looked at again if they really need to be there or not.

but most importantly, anet needs to stop tunnel visioning the stupid 1v1 hot join mesmer performance. play mes in a zerg and im not talking about u run with 60 + people..how about u run with an outnumbered group and go zergbust…trust me u would see the mes and many other things in a way different light. cause in those fights u will see all the bugs, the ai problem mes has, the immobilize stacking issue and with it the mes no stability problem, and also u would see the problems with mantra channelling etc! and then try to make a build with this messy traitlines!