Guild Wars 2

When I think about boons / conditions & controls I think about plays & counter plays not spammy application or perm-application but used to create highs & lows in a fight allowing times to reassess or deny time to reassess the fight. Below is a list of each boon /condition & control effect in GW2 and what I believe should their function in this plays & counter plays.

• What do others think of the overall boon /condition & control play in GW2?
• Do you like the current overall boon /condition & control play in GW2?
• What can be done to improve overall boon /condition & control play in GW2?

Boons / Buffs

• Retaliation: Punishing. Self/Group buff aimed at creating time to kitten & think. Used to create lows (breathers/ attack stops attacking) and highs (Timed right can turn the fight around with the attack now having to go on the defensive). Main function is to punish the attacker for attacking at that time.
• Vigor: Damage avoidance. Increased endurance regeneration which increases dodge frequency & dodge related effects. Counter to any initial damage application (phys/condi).
• Protection: Sustain damage reduction. Self/Group buff aimed at extending fight times. Counter to physical damage over time.
• Regeneration: Over time Healing. Self/Group healing aimed at extending fight times. Counter to condition damage over time.
• Aegis: Burst damage protection. This needs to be able to block spike damage not just 1 attack. I believe this should last somewhere from 1 sec down to 1/2 sec as most spikes are channelled or a combo of skill(s) in a very short time frame. I would balance burst protection time off the standard time frame required for these bursts.
• Stability: Denial of hard controls. Self/Group hard control denial. Counter to hard control effects (Knocked down, pushed back, pulled, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk or feared).
• Swiftness: Increased movement speed in & out of combat. Increased ease of kiting. Counter to movement impairing effects.
• Fury: Increase critial effects. Increase critical damage application & on crit effect application.
• Might: Increase damage, physical & condition.

Conditions / Debuffs
Please note Condition damage ignores armour.

• Blind: Damage avoidance. Burst damage & specific skill effect avoidance. Like aegis I feel this needs the same burst damage avoidance time frame. So blind damage avoidance time frame is also balanced of the standard time frame require for these burst combos. Counters burst damage and/or specific skill application.
• Cripple: Movement imparing. Slows enemies movement. Counter to kiting.
• Chill: Soft control shutdown. Increases skill recharge time and reduced movement speed. Interrupts skill timing & position but still allowing player control over character. I feel cripple (-50%) should be the stronger movement impairing effect as chill (-33%) has the added effect of increase skill recharge. This should also effect thiefs initiative regeneration to a simialr level to skill cooldowns.
• Immobilise: Movement lockdown. enemies unable to move. Hard counters to kiting.
• Fear: Punishing shutdown. Lose of character control & runs away from source of fear creating time to kitten & think. With a note that only with a Necromancer can this become a damaging condition. . Shutdown skill use & reposition the target.
• Torment: Punishing movement. Condition damage over time that increase the punishment/damage if moving. Counters kiting.
• Weakness: Reduces attackers damage. Debuff aimed at extending fight times. Counters physical damage.
• Vulnerable: Increase damage taken. Debuff aimed at shortening fight times. Increase applied physical damage to debuffed target. Counters protection.
• Poison: Reduce healing over time and applies condition damage over time. Debuff aimed at shortening fight time by reducing healing and causing damage over time as a bonus. Counters healing over time.
• Confusion: Punish skill activation. Debuff aimed at creating time to kitten & think. Used to create lows (breathers/ attack stops attacking) and highs (Timed right can turn the fight around with the attack now having to go on the defensive). Main function is to punish the attacker for attacking at that time.
• Bleeding: Build high damage over time. Multiply bleed application increase overall bleeding damage. At max stack cap the highest damaging condition over time. Counters Healing over time and high armour.
• Burning: Instance high damage over time. Single application high damaging condition over time that you want removed as soon as possible. I feel this needs an added function like reduced time on targets boons to help differentiate burning from bleeding. Counters Healing over time and high armour.

Controls

• Shutdow Controls: Knocked down, stunned & dazed. Shutdown skill use & position.
• Shutdown Positioning Controls: Pushed back, pulled, launched, floated & sunk. As well as shutting down the target these controls also physical relocate the targets position. Shutdown skill use & reposition the target.
• Fear: Fear is both a control & condition and shutdown & position control. Please refer to Fear under conditions.
• Quickness: Burst skill application. Decrease skills & action activation times for faster activation of skills. Skill Burst. I feel this should become a boon and this feels like a counter to chill.
• Stealth: Target avoidance. Unable to be seen or directly targeted by enemy skills aimed at creating time to kitten & think. Counters targeting.
• Invulnerable: Immune to all damage/effect applications. Panic button. Counters all damage/skill application to you.
• Teleport: Instance position relocation. Counters movement denying/impairing effect.
• Stun Break: Removal of contol effect. Counters Applied control.

Bezagron.7352:

What do others think of the overall boon /condition & control play in GW2?

I think all in all it is in a good place, but as with anything in anygame, it can use some small adjustments.

Bezagron.7352:

Do you like the current overall boon /condition & control play in GW2?

Absolutely.

Bezagron.7352:

What can be done to improve overall boon /condition & control play in GW2?

Adjustments to Some of the condition skills that are on the OP side of things. I think conditions as a whole are fins, they simply need to adjust the skills that apply unrealistic stack amounts or durations, compared to the rest of the skills out there. Perhaps make trait adjustments that slime down some of the combinations that add to much condition damage in one skill use because of traits that support it.

As to boons, honestly, I feel that for the most part, boons are not in too bad of a place. I simply wish we couls stop seeing threads for every professions demanding silly things they do not need, such as more stability or protection up time.

As too CC, I see little trouble there. I have leveled every profession to 80, predominantly in WvW, and I have little trouble dealing with conditions or CC on any of my professions.

I do question how the dev team plays though, because there balancing philosophies from well over a year ago, and the ones they posted recently around the ready up, often are not even remotely congruent to my personal experiences, or to what I hear many other players mention. I do not know if it is me, and the circle of players I talk to or the devs and how they play, that cause the inconsistencies.

The biggest thing for me is that boon removal needs to get a priority system that makes more sense. As it is now, certain removals are artificially better simply because they prioritize stability, which is 99% of the time the boon you want removed first (followed by might often).

Either the system needs a condition-like system (first in last out), or each “type” (corruption, removal, steal) needs a consistent, spelled out somewhere priority system that makes sense.

Everything about the base system I enjoy. It condensed the old system that was overly complex into a set of common buffs and debuffs that are fast and easy to learn, so even if you don’t know the skill that applied it, you know what’s going on now.

Ok to answer my own questions

• What do others think of the overall boon /condition & control play in GW2?

I must say I agree with dancingmonkey that boon / condition & control play is in a good place but that there is room for improvement.

• Do you like the current overall boon /condition & control play in GW2?

This is a big YES. As this is were I find the greatest depth to GW2’s combat.

• What can be done to improve overall boon /condition & control play in GW2?

Now this is the question. How to improve if you already like the existing play or how to change the existing system if you don’t like the existing play?

As I already like the existing play how can it be improved. In the latest Ready up (13 June 2014) one of the phases brought up was Purity of Purpose and this is part of what I was trying to list in the Opening posts.

What I want to look at is this purity of purpose of each boon/condition/control (B/Condi/Ctr) and what other players see as their purpose?

Overall I see three components which are used to make up the style on each B/Condi/Ctr and these are;

• Buffs, Debuff.
• Offensive, Defensive.
• Target Control.

So a B/Condi/Ctr is going to be some of or focus on one of either a buff, debuff. The favour is going to be Offensive or Defensive and it could include an element of target control or focused on target control. This does not mean a offensive or target control favoured skill can not be used for defence or a defensive or target control skill offensivily just that when looking at the B/Condi/Ctr the first thought is O this is defensive, O this is offensive, O this is target control.

So what is the purity of purpose of these components?

Offensive
Overall design is to decrease fight time creating short enagagments.
Defensive
Overall design is to increase fight time creating longer enagagments.
Target Control
For me target control has three components which I call;

• Immunes (Partial or complete protection to controls, effects or damage),
• Lockdown (Position or Skill Activation Control) and,
• Shutdown (Loss of ablitily for any action).

The purpose of this group is to apply control over the target(s) externally or through denial of effect.

Buffs
The purpose is to improve the offensive and/or defensive capbilities of yourself or allies. Mainly boons fall into this group. What I see as buffs are;

• Offensive – Fury, Might & Quickness,
• Defensive – Aegis, Condition Removals, Protection, Regeneration & Vigor.
• Target Control – Block, Evade, Invulnerable, Quickness, Retaliation, Stability, Stealth, Stun Break, Swiftness & Teleport.

Debuffs
The purpose is to decrease the offensive and/or defensive capabilities of your enemy(ies). Both conditions & controls fall into this group. What I see as debuffs are;

• Offensive – Bleeding, Burning, Poison & Vulnerability
• Defensive – Blind & Weakness.
• Target Control – Chill, Confusion, Cripple, Fear, Floated, Immobilise, Launched, Pushed back, Pulled, Torment & Sunk.

Edit: swapped incorrect position of poison.

On a whole I find most boons/conditions/controls (b/condi/ctr) have great purity of purpose but there are a few I have problems with which I will discuss over the next few posts.

Invulnerable
Being invulnerable should mean being invulnerable.

When I think of being invulnerable I think of being immune to everything, nothing negative can effect or hurt me. Now here is the problem, conditions. Already applied condition can still effect you when you are invulnerable. For me this just doesn’t work, I’m no longer invulnerable. What I would like to see is if I’m invulnerable then for that short time while invulnerable no conditions can effect you. So no damage ticking from conditions, no condition effects (chill, cripple, immobilise, poison) for only that time that your invulnerable.

Retaliation
Attack me at your our risk

Retaliation should make attackers stop and think is the risk worth the reward. With the reduce damage to retaliation in sPvP & WvW I feel retaliation has lost it’s purity of purpose. In sPvP & WvW I rarily feel like Oo look they have retaliation on I should stop attacking. In PvE if a mob has Retal I think about stopping if I’m doing fast attacks but using retaliation in PvE bar 1 or 2 mobs. NO as this is because mobs on a whole attack very slowly in PvE.
This is were I starting think, why would you use retaliation?

• To stop the enemy(ies) from attacking you.
• So you would want to use this as a peeling skill.
• What’s the best peeling skill/effect.. Stealth! Why, drops target making you directly untargetable and seen.

What I think Retaliation was original meant to do is the same core function stealth performs and this is to get the attacker to stop attacking you. Stealth, you can’t directly see or target your enemy. Retaliation you can see and target your enemy but you don’t want to attack.

Retaliation Problems:

• sPvP – Difficult visual tell in GW2’s visual combat other then the boon symbol on target. Permanent retaliation up time.
• WvW – Again difficult visual tell other then the boon symbol on target and permanent retaliation up time. But also basically instance death in large group fights for AoE builds.

I feel retaliation purity of purpose is this, performing the same core function of stealth. Stopping the attacker from attacking you but doing it in a mechanically different way.

Aegis
What was that, I felt nothing

I see aegis purity of purpose as burst protection, which function fantastic in PvE with the 1 shot hits but against any channelled or skill comboing burst it’s next to useless. And it’s typically skill comboing that provides the burst in sPvP & WvW, either from an individual or well timed group targeting. For aegis to perform this purity of purpose it would require a function change from only blocking the next attack to block the next attacks for a small time. The amount of block time needs to be balance around average skill comboing burst execution times.

Blind
What you thought you could hit me?

Just like aegis I see blind’s purity of purpose as burst protection. As such I would be looking at changing blind’s function from the next attack to the next attacks for a small time. But when thinking about blind I don’t see total protection, what I see is a high chance that the attack(s) will miss as a blind person can still hit you. So were aegis is a hard burst protection I feel blind as a soft burst protection in that all of the burst could miss or only part.

Stealth
Try an find me if you can

On a whole I find stealth performs it’s purity of purpose fantastically. But one other aspect I find frustrating is that if a stealth attack is block the attacker is not revealed. In stealth encounters many players use evades/dodges, invulnerabitiies, blinding, area denial & blocking to deny a stealth attack. What I find is the oppurtunity cost of using these skills is so much higher then failing a stealth attack, as you can just try it again if still stealth.

Out of all these skills I only feel blocks should be rewarded with the reveal debuff. As in the proccess of blocking it makes sence to me that you could locate that stealthed attacker (work best when thinking of melee).

One solution could be a very short cooldown applied to stealth weapon skills, 1 sec (might be too long) down to 1/4 sec (could be too short) giving an oppurtunity cost to using these skills.

Chill
Are you feeling a bit cold?

Another condition I find performing it’s purity of purpose fantastically. But interacts with Thief’s weapon skills poorly (please correct me if wrong)

What I understand chill’s purity of purpose is that of a soft shutdown, allowing player control over their character but hindering both skill activation (cooldown recharge) & positioning (movement).

I believe any thief’s skill with a cooldown receives chill’s full effect, and the thief’s movement speed is also effected. But thief weapons skill work off initiative and have no cooldowns per skill. Meaning chill does not effect thief weapons skills. One way to incorporate chill’s skill activation effect is to also make it effect initiative regeneration. Now this is a numbers game. Too much and it cripples the thief worse then other professions but getting the right number I believe could create the same skill activation effect other profession feel.

Interrupts
No no, you can’t use that

Again I find performing it’s purity of purpose fantastically. But sadly the thief initiative mechanic & weapons skill again seem to be avoiding the full effect of being interrupted (please again correct me if wrong).

What I would look at is if a skill is interrupted then that skill has an interrupt cooldown applied. So even if the skill has no cooldown if interrupted it would now have an interrupt cooldown that must recharge before this skill can be used again.

Sorry if I seem to be picking on Thieves it’s not how I want to come across. It’s just some effects and condition seem to not have the same full effect on Thieves as other professions and I’m trying to look at overall b/condi/ctr play & counter play improvements.

What are other players thought’s?

Bezagron.7352:

Stealth

What I would look at is if a skill is interrupted then that skill has an interrupt cooldown applied. So even if the skill has no cooldown if interrupted it would now have an interrupt cooldown that must recharge before this skill can be used again.

Sadly on this point it does not matter what players think at all. Mesmer’s new trait “Power Block” was doing exactly this to thieves.. and many other things it shouldn’t have been doing it to but that’s another discussion… And Anet reacted accordingly. Fix the bug, keep thieves spamming skills.

While I do think thieves get a lot of flack that is undue, I also feel that this profession, much like warrior, Receives this because it is such an amalgamation of what I consider, Poor Planning and Poor development on top of Poor Design.

Stealth as of current for thieves means, ontop of Targeting removal, High Potential for Large, and often, easy damage.

Due to other class traits and runes stealth also allows for other types of abuse of mechanics. for example, positioning behind/beside a foe for Extra damage.

Low risk, As you said, revealed comes after a successful hit, not from an evade, miss, or block. Even tho the target can tell when they have denied a thief a hit, they still cant be sure of its exact position until stealth wears off or they land the blow.

Low risk on initiative, Openers from stealth carry little to 0 use of initiative and are easily spammed. there’s no harm in missing one two or 3 times with a back stab.

Initiative is basically an old school Gw1 Energy Bar with extra perks, also traits can reduce its usage, increase its Regen, etc.. It also means No cool downs and minute “cast times”.

Initiative as a internal CD mechanic also, according to Anet, means a Free pass to Conditions or boons that completely destroy or cripple all other classes, such as interrupts, chill, blind, aegis, etc… many thing still effect their utility skills but many of these have, similar to weapons, tiny activation windows with moderate CD’s on them.

Extreme Mobility, both inside combat and outside of Combat. This includes Evades, Teleports, Movement Speed, Gap Closers (btw, Heart Seeker aka Dagger2 movement is not hampered by chill or cripple as far as i am aware), Gap openers, etc..

Thieves also suffer from Glass-or-Go-Homer-Itus where in it’s extremely non-viable for them to do anything but go full Zerk and hope for the best.

The above all combined together with CC on many weapon sets means that Thieves can often Spam CC and deal large amounts of Damage at the same time.

I’m not saying that they need to be nerfed into the ground.. anyway..

Boons/Conditions as a whole.

I think Anet did a decent job of simplifying the Gw1 piles but perhaps they over simplified it..

Boons and Conditions as they stand now.

Some are in a better place than others, some need a Buff or Nerf and a few just need a Redo (Confusion/retaliation/stealth come to mind instantly for me)

Improvements.

Off the top of my head, we could do with some more conditions being added as well as boons. We could do with less hard counters in conditions vs the very soft counters found in Boons. Anet could also take a second or 15th look at how conditions could be managed in all game formats..

for instance if all conditions applied stacked duration and conditions from Multiple Players stacked ontop of one another i think we could find a much nicer place for more than 1 condition heavy member per team. (bleed would have to be buffed slightly and ultimately if you still get 25 stacks of bleed, even today, it probably means you are already or about to die from the pile of players targeting you)

Thanks for the reply Swish and I have to agree when talking about conditions thief’s initiative and weapons skills seem to be able to avoid some to the effects other profession receive in full.

The 1 stack per player is a interesting thought as this would reduce server requirements for conditions and allow for multiple condition users in group play. But how do we rebalance all the intensity stacking condition, as some profession can already when build right achieve high stack levels. Could critical conditions or boons help with this.