(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Please fix #1 Skills
I find it comical you say Ele staff and not scepter.
Ele staff is pretty strong as it is (especially AA), except for the ground targeting + long telegraphs making it quite pitiful in tPvP.
As for Mesmer scepter, it seems fine considering it generates clones and condi’s.
Thief doesn’t need anymore damage buffs until the spam that’s going on is toned down.
I find it comical you say Ele staff and not scepter.
Ele staff is pretty strong as it is (especially AA), except for the ground targeting + long telegraphs making it quite pitiful in tPvP.
As for Mesmer scepter, it seems fine considering it generates clones and condi’s.
Thief doesn’t need anymore damage buffs until the spam that’s going on is toned down.
Ele Scepter needs it too, I just provided a few examples instead of listing everything. And no, Ele Staff and Mesmer Scepter are not fine. I won’t even bother commenting on the ‘thief is already OP’ argument because it’s silly and a strawman.
First, all staffs are clunky (except maybe guardian), Ele has the highest damage on staff AA from all other staff users. Water obviously less than other attunements due to the fact it also heals.
Mesmers auto attacks on scepter in comparison fall slightly behind on first two AA’s and then a strong third attack generating a clone which is one of the hardest hitting AA’s even though it’s third in sequence.
Thief’s damage balance is hardly justified by ability to survive.
Their ability to spam (no remarks about OP) is a little out of control since the initiative buff Dec 10.
Also, a little ironic guardians took a dodge nerf and not thief because “dodging is prevalent in GW2.” Which was even mocked by countless.
Tarnished Coast
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
I see your Explosive Shot and raise you Symbol of Protection.
Solid damage and Protection every second. All for spamming Hammer #1. Tack on Boon Duration and Writ of Persistence and you wind up with permanent, group Protection and great area damage.
Seriously, the only time I ever use any other Hammer ability is the Blast Finisher on #2 when an appropriate field is near me. The other three are just lack-luster in comparison in PvE, and rarely will the same three do anything substantial in PvP.
EDIT: Sorry, wrong symbol linked… and trait apparently. I haven’t played in quite some time.
(edited by Viralseed.9362)
Guys, guys – my point was that they need to do a review pass on #1’s for all weapons in the game, not to argue that x weapon is more broken than y weapon, although some are definitely in worse shape than others.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Guys, guys – my point was that they need to do a review pass on #1’s for all weapons in the game, not to argue that x weapon is more broken than y weapon, although some are definitely in worse shape than others.
While I can see how you thought I was arguing X weapon needed to be looked at first before Y weapon, that’s not what I was implying. As an experienced PvE Guardian, the #1 chain of the Hammer is completely overpowered in comparison to the rest of the weapon. Sure, Mighty Blow is probably the best Blast Finisher in the game, but the other three abilities are so conditional in PvE and PvP that I can’t be bothered to press 3-5 during 99% of encounters.
You are right, there are a lot of #1 skills I would like to be looked at again. One of the big issues I’ve seen is the benefit placed onto the third hit of a chain of said skill. If the benefit is great, there isn’t much of a reason to use another ability at the risk you break the chain and lose that effect. I’d much rather not break infinite Protection upkeep just to knockback a single foe with Banish. If the ability is lackluster or only conditionally useful, players will seek using other weapons. As a Mesmer, I use main-hand Sword exclusively (with various off-hands) since I cannot be bothered with the awkward Clone upkeep of the Scepter.
I would love to see the developers take a balance pass at the #1 abilities, at least for me to consider some of the lesser used weapons.
The problem with ele staff is not damage, but projectile speed. I could send my projectiles by mail and they would get to the enemy faster than they do now.
Strangely, I agree with op.
Mesmer Scepter. Thief Pistol. Ele Staff. I could go on. All of these weapons are clumsy and feeble in large part because their #1 skills are not tuned well. Since the #1 skill plays the primary role in sustained DPS, they all end up being terrible in any even slightly passive or prolonged fight – i.e. almost all PvE encounters.
Mesmer’s scepter feels awkward because its one of the only ranged chains. Most other ranged “auto-attacks” are one individual skill.
Not exactly sure about ele staff. Thief ‘1’ is one of the most useful, and possibly OP, forms of bleed application in the game outside of Sharper Images. Play the thief right and try the pistol. Don’t try and face tank with a pistol, don’t try to spike damage with a pistol, don’t try to permastealth with a pistol. Keep at a distance and condi the target to death.
Chains are what is wrong with the ‘1’ skills in this game. They need to be rebalanced such that all of their attacks are powerful in their own right. None of this ‘third hit’ being the meat&potatoes stuff anymore. Melee gets the biggest shaft when it comes to this.
Guys, guys – my point was that they need to do a review pass on #1’s for all weapons in the game, not to argue that x weapon is more broken than y weapon, although some are definitely in worse shape than others.
Should have lead with better examples, though I do agree with you in spirit.
As a Mesmer, I use main-hand Sword exclusively (with various off-hands) since I cannot be bothered with the awkward Clone upkeep of the Scepter.
I would love to see the developers take a balance pass at the #1 abilities, at least for me to consider some of the lesser used weapons.
As a side topic, Mesmer scepter is lackluster because of Deceptive Evasion. Since you make a clone on dodge rolls, the benefit of the Scepter’s ‘1’ chain is lost. You’d absolutely be in love with that skill if they’d balance that trait and give it a cooldown of approx 10 seconds.
Mesmer Scepter. Thief Pistol. Ele Staff. I could go on. All of these weapons are clumsy and feeble in large part because their #1 skills are not tuned well. Since the #1 skill plays the primary role in sustained DPS, they all end up being terrible in any even slightly passive or prolonged fight – i.e. almost all PvE encounters.
Mesmer’s scepter feels awkward because its one of the only ranged chains.
I think the real awkwardness comes from the third attack being a second long windup.
That is a attack pattern more commonly found with maces (and IMO it is just as awkward there).
Btw, necromancer also have a scepter attack chain. But there all the attacks are half second windups.
As a Mesmer, I use main-hand Sword exclusively (with various off-hands) since I cannot be bothered with the awkward Clone upkeep of the Scepter.
I would love to see the developers take a balance pass at the #1 abilities, at least for me to consider some of the lesser used weapons.
As a side topic, Mesmer scepter is lackluster because of Deceptive Evasion. Since you make a clone on dodge rolls, the benefit of the Scepter’s ‘1’ chain is lost. You’d absolutely be in love with that skill if they’d balance that trait and give it a cooldown of approx 10 seconds.
No. All you’d acomplish is having people still hate the slow, mechanically problematic and clumsy generation of clones via scepter, AND a massive hate for the Anet devs for making the single most kittened nerf to Mesmers across the board to date. You’re talking near complete class redesign with a change like that. It’s problem enough that DE will have a sideways nerf with the impending vigor nerf.
Leave mesmers to actual Mesmers.
I find it comical you say Ele staff and not scepter.
Ele staff is pretty strong as it is (especially AA), except for the ground targeting + long telegraphs making it quite pitiful in tPvP.
As for Mesmer scepter, it seems fine considering it generates clones and condi’s.
Thief doesn’t need anymore damage buffs until the spam that’s going on is toned down.
mesmer scepter is far from fine. And thief pistol 1 is not really good. How much people like some of the other weapons is not really relevant to the pistol mainhand being kind of lack luster, and the 1 button being slow/boring lame
Mesmer Scepter. Thief Pistol. Ele Staff. I could go on. All of these weapons are clumsy and feeble in large part because their #1 skills are not tuned well. Since the #1 skill plays the primary role in sustained DPS, they all end up being terrible in any even slightly passive or prolonged fight – i.e. almost all PvE encounters.
Mesmer’s scepter feels awkward because its one of the only ranged chains. Most other ranged “auto-attacks” are one individual skill.
Not exactly sure about ele staff. Thief ‘1’ is one of the most useful, and possibly OP, forms of bleed application in the game outside of Sharper Images. Play the thief right and try the pistol. Don’t try and face tank with a pistol, don’t try to spike damage with a pistol, don’t try to permastealth with a pistol. Keep at a distance and condi the target to death.
Chains are what is wrong with the ‘1’ skills in this game. They need to be rebalanced such that all of their attacks are powerful in their own right. None of this ‘third hit’ being the meat&potatoes stuff anymore. Melee gets the biggest shaft when it comes to this.
Guys, guys – my point was that they need to do a review pass on #1’s for all weapons in the game, not to argue that x weapon is more broken than y weapon, although some are definitely in worse shape than others.
Should have lead with better examples, though I do agree with you in spirit.
theif main hand is horrible bleed application, thief has a big problem with aftercast, even though it says 1/2nd its much longer with aftercast.
but even more than that, its super boring and slow.
Add Necro Axe and Staff to the horribad #1 skills list
80 Necro (5), 80 Guard (4), 80 Mesmer (3)
80 Ranger (3), 80 Warrior (3), 80 Thief (3)
80 Ele (2), 80 Engi (3), 80 Rev (2)
80 Ranger (3), 80 Warrior (3), 80 Thief (3)
80 Ele (2), 80 Engi (3), 80 Rev (2)
Yeah, anyone saying Thief Pistol #1 or Mesmer Scepter #1 are good clearly isn’t in tune with the relative effectiveness of other #1 skills.
Actually, Thief #1 presents a whole different problem because of the Initiative resource. The fact that Vital Shot is under-tuned forces an over-reliance on Initiative with P/P by having to spam Unload to maintain damage. This isn’t how it’s supposed to work and it actually breaks the entire set by gimping mobility and making the other skills useless because trying to do anything but Unload spam makes you lose too much damage. This is an issue that should have been identified immediately and, frankly, it single-handedly causes me to question the competence of the balance team.
If they end up reducing the Initiative cost of Unload instead of improving Vital Shot in the next patch, I’ll probably have an aneurysm.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Mesmer scepter AA is so horribly broken it’s not even funny. Attack #3 is the real problem because the channel is so long that it is easily interrupted/clunky to use. What is supposed to offset this clunkiness (I assume) is that the clone created with attack #3 is supposed to start the chain on its own and make more clones for you… except it doesn’t. It’s just a basic clone that deals next to no damage and does nothing useful on its own.
Do you know what we really need? Swappable weapon skills, to adjust our needs in particular encounters. Especially swappable auto-attack skills.
ANet should give us the option to use our weapons in the way we develop our builds.
We should have at least 3 swappable skills for every slot on a weapon – zerker skill/condi skill/support skill
(edited by Sublimatio.6981)
I don’t see how #1 is comparable.
I mean, really. How would you balance them? Their target balance depends massively on traits, utility skills, elites, heal abilities, class mechanic and 2-5 skills. They’re not at all comparable.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
I don’t see how #1 is comparable.
I mean, really. How would you balance them? Their target balance depends massively on traits, utility skills, elites, heal abilities, class mechanic and 2-5 skills. They’re not at all comparable.
I think in this context it would be appropriate to consider the autoattacks on all classes and for a balance pass to occur for all of them to truly define their role in applicable builds and setups. Off the top of my head, these are the “problematic” autoattacks for each class:
Elementalist
- Staff Fire, Water, Air and Earth require increases in projectile speed for the autoattacks. In the complete absence of any consideration to DPS as casting time and aftercast should remain invariant; Staff autoattacks should become faster to hit more reliably.
- Dagger Water, Earth require changes that would alter DPS output, but this is because DPS output in these attacks is junk. Weak autoattacks in attunements outside of Air remain an issue for Elementalist in general, but Dagger mainhand in particular requires Air 1 for DPS output – which pigeonholes the playstyle and limits build diversity. Dagger mainhand in particular will never likely have a reliable Condition build due to Earth 1’s horribly bad attack. Aftercast and damage output will have to be re-evaluated.
- Scepter Fire, Earth require less Aftercast, whilst Water’s damage output is bunk and offers no secondary effects.
Engineer
- Rifle 1 has aftercast that pushes the purported 0.75 cast time closer to 0.9 seconds, which is why Rifle is widely regarded as usable largely only in Burst damage builds rather than sustained pressure DPS despite qualities that would predispose it to such: Piercing without trait, good range, good coefficients.
- Pistol 1 has horrible aftercast that turns a 0.5 cast time to 0.9 seconds. With short Bleed duration, horrible coefficients and base damage, Pistol 1 is pretty much disregarded unless used in Condition builds taking Incendiary Powder and lacking a single target skill to proc IP. It’s part of the reason why Pistol/Shield is so often seen with Kits and P/P has waned soon after the Beta Weekends – Kits are so markedly superior in all respects that mainhands deserve no respect – which leaves Kitless builds out in the cold.
The point is to give each profession’s autoattacks a balance pass to give them a defined role and make them useful in that role. I’m also certain that professions like Mesmer would appreciate changes to Scepter 1, for example, or Necromancers changes to Staff 1, or a multitude of other autoattacks for other professions. For Rangers on Shortbow, I’d imagine the problem is the other way around.
Autoattacks are playing a small, but significant role in limiting build diversity as a result. A strong build starts from the basics and autoattack balance does play a role in defining and restricting playstyle – I gave Dagger mainhand for Elementalist as an example. Consideration to sustained damage output plays a significant role in any build, and ignoring it has flow on effects for balance that Arenanet should take into account.
Iva Malthias – 80 Engineer
Marellune Malthias – 80 Elementalist
Devil’s Dominion [DD] – Yak’s Bend
Marellune Malthias – 80 Elementalist
Devil’s Dominion [DD] – Yak’s Bend
Mesmer scepter auto doesn’t inflict any conditions, which is weird for a condition weapon, which combined with clones using same autoattack results in Staff being far far better in condition builds as staff autoattacks and staff clones do nice condition damage.
Engineer pistol AA is very rarely used because it deals really low damage. There’s usually some kind of kit you can switch into which will be better than staying in pistol and autoattacking.
Warriors, as always, get the most powerful condition autoattacks with 6 sec bleeds on rifle and 8 sec bleeds on sword. Compare that with 2 sec bleed on engineer pistol or 4 sec bleed on necro scepter.
As a Mesmer, I use main-hand Sword exclusively (with various off-hands) since I cannot be bothered with the awkward Clone upkeep of the Scepter.
I would love to see the developers take a balance pass at the #1 abilities, at least for me to consider some of the lesser used weapons.
As a side topic, Mesmer scepter is lackluster because of Deceptive Evasion. Since you make a clone on dodge rolls, the benefit of the Scepter’s ‘1’ chain is lost. You’d absolutely be in love with that skill if they’d balance that trait and give it a cooldown of approx 10 seconds.
No, that would be just a straight up nerf of nearly every mesmer build out there. People would just dump shatter builds altogether and start using phantasm builds, rather than playing scepter. Nerfing the rest of profession won’t fix scepter autos being bad.
The bottom line is that even a cursory analysis reveals that many autoattacks are very poorly tuned, and that carries very large balance implications. A few weapons, like Warrior Sword and Ranger Shortbow, have autoattacks that are overly strong, making them feel very bland despite being highly effective, while most ranged weapons are too weak (to varying degrees), making them highly situational and generally suboptimal. Even autoattacks like the Ele’s Water Staff, which is weak in part because it has secondary effects, give up more damage than they should for those secondary effects. This is why Fire is the only respectable fallback attunement for Staff Ele. Mesmer Scepter has a similar problem, where the utility provided doesn’t offset the damage loss and it ends up making the whole kit terrible.
Another example- when you glance at Bleeding Shot on Warrior’s Rifle and Vital Shot on the Thief’s Pistol, they appear equivalent. Vital Shot fires faster while having shorter bleed duration and doing less damage. The stats on the tooltip even make it look balanced. It fires 33% faster while having 33% less bleed duration.
…Or does it? In reality, the relative aftercast leaves Vital Shot firing at roughly the same speed as Bleeding Shot while having a significantly shorter bleed duration and doing less direct damage while also having less range, meaning Bleeding Shot is objectively significantly superior for no apparent reason. Since launch, multitudes of people have complained about how weak P/P feels on the Thief, and this is the main reason why even if it’s often misdiagnosed as problems with the utility skills. The problem with the other utility skills is an indirect consequence of the burden of DPS being disproportionately placed on Unload, causing an over-reliance on Initiative.
I can’t help but see this as a blatant balancing oversight that has gone on since launch; it’s a direct result of what I’m talking about where they seem to pay no attention at all to #1 skills and are afraid to change them in any way even though they are clearly the major problem on a lot of weapons. The important thing that Anet seems to learn is that it isn’t a good idea to try to compensate for autoattack issues with the 2-5 skills. It’s like trying to fine-tune something that needs coarse adjustment. It’s far too precarious and they’ll usually end up making other things overpowered.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Yea, Ranger weapons are terrible when it comes to #1 skills.
Longbow, short bow, and 1h sword all pretty much provide max dps when you just spam #1 (well, Barrage can be a DPS boost at times and Rapid Fire is a boost when you’re not at max range).
This is one of the reasons I rerolled: DPSing as a ranger is incredibly boring.