Guild Wars 2

I have runes of strength, both in PvE and PvP, and find that they’re stupidly overpowered compared to any other rune. In PvP I actually went from being subpar in 1 vs 1 to winning 1 vs 2.

While I like winning, I’d rather have this imbalance fixed. Personally I think all other runes should be buffed instead, but I realize this is probably not feasible right now (Chinese launch sucks resources, which is understandable).

Or buff other runes a little more, right now getting rune of strenght is one way ticket for maximum dps.

The cd need to be longer for the passive might gain say 10 sec and the duration +% should be a bit lower maybe more on the lines of 35% to 40% but these are still power runes and they are still aimed for getting might so they should be some of the best non crit dmg runes in the game.

Its better to ask for say rune of rages to get +7% dmg when under fury and for its passive fury to be on say a 20 sec cd not 30 (though this would be near endless fury from a rune set alone and fury is still better then might for dmg.)

Wait wait wait. This seems to be very PvP-focused. I’d say in PvE, it’s in a good place. It’s outclassed by Scholar runes in an optimal party already, so why would you nerf it there?

I really don’t want an Arcing Arrow v2.0.

1v1 capability only increased against condi builds. Yes you probably became better vs necros and engis but that’s about it.

I really don’t see the problem with strength runes.

Yea, buff the other runes, more powercreep plz.

Vissarion.6509:

Or buff other runes a little more, right now getting rune of strenght is one way ticket for maximum dps.

Because all the game needs is more raw power on everyone, right?

I agree that Runes of Strength are probably a little strong overall.

But I’d rather see crappy Runes buffed than popular ones nerfed. Because objectively Strength Runes only really add DPS. And I’m sure other things matter too.

They should start by rebuffing Runes of Lyssa. Other Runes could also be buffed.

In general I think it would be better if ANet moves away from static damage increases and instead promoted more “utility” effects, rather than just raw damage.

Buttercup.5871:

I have runes of strength, both in PvE and PvP, and find that they’re stupidly overpowered compared to any other rune. In PvP I actually went from being subpar in 1 vs 1 to winning 1 vs 2.

While I like winning, I’d rather have this imbalance fixed. Personally I think all other runes should be buffed instead, but I realize this is probably not feasible right now (Chinese launch sucks resources, which is understandable).

Alot of terrible in this post.

Nerf Runes of Strength because they are second best DPS rune behind scholar in a Optimal party.

Nerf Runes of Strength because you use to be bad at 1v1’s now win 1v2’s. (Pssh it’s not the Runes)

I’m sure Anet will get right on these pressing issues backed up by strong evidence.

Stop trying to paint the picture that you can’t be beat because you have the runes on.

I do not understand the complaint. Well, I guess, I do to an extent, in the context that every little change they make in an update, people care to whine and complain about it. It simply gets old that we see such wasteful and cluttering threads of this nature. If you are going to claim something is a problem, you need to provide at evidence, and not force your opinion at the community as if it was fact.

I’d rather see some of the other runes buffed up, some of them clearly you would never use. But buffed up in terms of granting unique and different effects that you can’t really quantify on paper and say "oh this is definitely better". and of course make these unique and different effects attractive enough for somebody to want to consider taking them.

Dee Jay.2460:

I agree that Runes of Strength are probably a little strong overall.

But I’d rather see crappy Runes buffed than popular ones nerfed. Because objectively Strength Runes only really add DPS. And I’m sure other things matter too.

They should start by rebuffing Runes of Lyssa. Other Runes could also be buffed.

In general I think it would be better if ANet moves away from static damage increases and instead promoted more “utility” effects, rather than just raw damage.

Ever notice how Anet always adds damage modifiers but no damage reduction modifiers?

One thing we should notice is that 95% pvp player running power build use this rune … when there is no build diversity, its because something is OP.
(There is many other run providing the same amount of power by the way)

Just a though.

@OP:

Actually in PvE, the runes are fine. I have no problem there.

In PvP, I think the entire rune set should be removed. It just isn’t balanced, and allows people to spec more defensively and still do a lot of damage.

Mattmatt.4962:

One thing we should notice is that 95% pvp player running power build use this rune … when there is no build diversity, its because something is OP.
(There is many other run providing the same amount of power by the way)

Just a though.

95% of the Bunker guardians have been running the same rune set for 2 years gotta be OP right? Popularity =/= OP it could just be the most efficient set so people run it.

I don’t know why so many people didn’t see power becoming more important then the other offensive stats. Power Double dips into white damage and critical strikes, precision just allows you more access to critical strike damage which needs power and crit damage. Crit damage doesn’t do anything if you don’t have Power and Precision. It’s so simple I just don’t even… If crit damage was nerfed further then power become even more of a better stat.

Blame ferocity nerf not allowing you to skimp on power like you could in the past. If the game shipped at launch with the ferocity changes we have now this would still be the case and strength runes would have ended up as a top rune. It was bugged forever which is why you didn’t see people use it before it was just fixed 6 months ago.

oZii.2864:

the most efficient set

You said it: “THE”
Not “one of the”

A balanced game always provides different option.
Well here it’s more about build diversity. But lack of build diveristy is just a consequence of imbalance

I agree, strength rune REALLY needs a nerf. It was already one of the best runes after the fixed the 6-piece bonus 6 months ago, but was competitive with ogre/hoelbrak/pack for most dps builds. Right now, strength runes allow many builds with high survivability (d/d celestial ele, soldier’s hambow warrior) to get incredible damage by stacking up tons of might very easily.

I would make them 30% might duration total, with only 5% damage increase on the 6-piece. Many other sets get a conditional 7% damage increase, but have much harder to meet requirements (foe burning, or foe is chilled). Strength runes alone almost guarantee you’ll always have at least 1-stack of might.

I’d also nerf battle sigils down to 2 stacks of might on-swap. The effect is too reliable, and even if you compare strength sigils, at least then you need to build in more precision to make use of them.

Having to give up something for your build is a good thing. Having builds that “do it all” with no weaknesses are terrible in a team game as they push other builds/classes out of real viability.

Ferocity nerf didn’t effect sPvP where these runes are the biggest offender. It is really bad when pretty much every power build is using the same rune, I have seen a few people using ogre runes and a few very brave people using scholar runes but I have been in matches where 10/10 people were using Strength runes.

The runes are over budget and it is pretty obvious. They have a longer duration then all the other might runes (except Aristocracy which is a condi rune) AND they come with a free 7% damage bonus. Either bring the duration in line with other might runes or add another modifier required for the 7% like 10 or 15 stacks of might required for the bonus.

Mattmatt.4962:

oZii.2864:

the most efficient set

You said it: “THE”
Not “one of the”

A balanced game always provides different option.
Well here it’s more about build diversity. But lack of build diveristy is just a consequence of imbalance

Please explain how you can “one of the” best DPS? Players do the Math crunch the numbers and give you the best DPS. There are 3 offensive stats in this game with power being the most important. How do you make all Direct Damage rune sets equal with out making them carbon copies of each other? Any category rune has this issue not just direct damage or power runes.

Look at vitality runes if I want damage I go Wurm how can rune of the Warrior or Exuberance compete with rune of Wurm?

You know the Rock Dog from runes of ogre does about 1k-1.5k? If the Rock Dog didn’t die so easily it would be more popular since the user doesn’t have to do anything for it to do damage.

It sounds easy to say make the other viable or nerf Strength, then you look and there are 3 offensive stat categories and 24 runes with a primary stat in those categories.

It’s the same issue with s/tPvP 5 roles 8 professions. Here you have 24 runes competing for 1 role Damage. The only way the runes can even compete for that damage role is Power, Precision, Ferocity or a Damage Modifier with precision and ferocity heavily at the mercy of Power.

I follow the over budget angle on the 4 piece it isn’t the only offender to be fair Krait, Balthazar, and Monk have double 4 piece bonuses.

Thank you for giving me the example, i dont even have to turn on my brain ^^

Ogre’s run. It gives the same flat power, but you said it, its underpowered compared to strengh rune cause the dog dies so quickly.
The “side” effect of strengh rune (aka might duration and free damage modifier) is far above every other single rune.
Even scholar which require high level play to get the damage modifier is weaker cause 3% damage is so little compared to the high number (though duration) of might the strengh rune provide.
Higher skill-cap but weaker ? does it seem legit to you ???

oZii.2864:

Please explain how you can “one of the” best DPS? Players do the Math crunch the numbers and give you the best DPS. There are 3 offensive stats in this game with power being the most important. How do you make all Direct Damage rune sets equal with out making them carbon copies of each other? Any category rune has this issue not just direct damage or power runes.

snip

Well obviously if you go by “best mathematical dps” there is only 1 when you do something predictable like dungeon running, but runes have other effects that can’t be always accounted for reasonably with math in a variable environment.

If strength weren’t so obviously over-budget you might see some of the following runes: Pack runes are great b/c they give excellent stats, good boons, and the swiftness really helps some melee builds stick to their targets better. Hoelbrak offers a little more defense, which your build might need. Ogre is damage that has not conditional attached, so should be better if you can’t keep high might uptime. Vampirism would be interesting in some builds if the 2 and 4 piece didn’t share an icd aparently (or something weird about their icds). Flame legion might be really interesting in some builds if strength wasn’t so obviously better. Of course you have scholar for high-burst builds. Even Pirate would see more play b/c that tropical bird hits really hard and is hard to kill (evades).

The point is, you can make equivalent runes that enhance a certain strategy in a variable environment without making one so cleary superior that it doesn’t even matter.

It becomes cut and dry when you make all the runes similar, but when you mix them up, no model can account for variable situations. Perhaps a power rune that also give you some healing power, or regen might be useful in a valkyries ele build or something. Even better, give a power rune that gives +vigor duration and I bet shatter mesmers and s/d thieves would get very interested. Just an example, but in a pvp environment, its possible to have interesting effects that are different enough that you can’t just crunch numbers and have a solution.

might can be removed.

runes of strength is balanced.

this topic is invalid and will be removed.

Boon stripping is not plentiful enough to make these boons balanced.

Aberrant.6749:

Boon stripping is not plentiful enough to make these boons balanced.

Boon stripping is there just people aren’t traiting/building for it. Not every class has boon stripping ability but not every class has shouts either. That is what makes diverse classes a good thing.

From the wiki I count -

Boon Removal
Weapon skills- 2 mesmer weapon skills, 2 necromancer weapon skill,
Utility skills – 2 mesmer utility skills, 1 engineer utility skill

Profession mechanic
Engineer mine field

Elite
Necromancer Lich

Transfer
Larcenous strike

Convert boons 2 conditions
Necromancer WoC and Corrupt boon

Traits that remove boons
Searing Flames
Bountiful Theft
Acidic Elixirs
Shattered Concentration
Necromatic corruption

Equipment Sigil of Nullification

I don’t think every class should have plentiful boon removal that is what specializations are for. You don’t bring a Condi Mesmer for condition pressure you bring a necro or engi same concept here both of which also have boon removal abilities.

You don’t need to remove all the might all the time which I think some people are looking for, that would be a hard counter like diamond skin vs conditions. You just need to keep might low 5 stack of might and getting 7% modifier isn’t far off from 5 stack of might and a sigil of force.

The issue with Runes of Strength is twofold:

1. The runes are over-budget, especially the 4-piece tier.

2. The “conditional modifier” is met nearly 100% of the time by the runes themselves. The person wearing them literally does not have to do anything to get that bonus almost all of the time. All other runes with conditional damage modifiers require effort from the wearer to maintain the bonus. Runes of Strength do not.

Removing the “gain might when struck” proc from the #4 would solve both of these issues while leaving them very strong contenders for offensive might-stacking builds. More defensive might-stacking builds may also pick them, but other (currently good) choices become much more attractive, creating an actual choice.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The issue with Runes of Strength is twofold:

1. The runes are over-budget, especially the 4-piece tier.

2. The “conditional modifier” is met nearly 100% of the time by the runes themselves. The person wearing them literally does not have to do anything to get that bonus almost all of the time. All other runes with conditional damage modifiers require effort from the wearer to maintain the bonus. Runes of Strength do not.

Removing the “gain might when struck” proc from the #4 would solve both of these issues while leaving them very strong contenders for offensive might-stacking builds. More defensive might-stacking builds may also pick them, but other (currently good) choices become much more attractive, creating an actual choice.

I can agree with this suggestion I don’t mind the runes as is but this is a good compromise.

Rune of strength is a necessary evil given how broken condition builds are in this game.

Yes, please buff my pirate runes, my parrot doesn’t do enough DPS yet.

Rune of strength doesn’t need a nerf. It would imbalance the game further if they were to be nerfed; it gives power builds a better fighting chance against condis now.

i think the condition players are not happy that their freekills can actually fight back and put them down.

this topic has run its course, time for mr m to put it away.

Guys, you dont make something OP to counter something else OP.

Condi is OP ? (by the way yes it is)
Dont up power, nerf condi to bring it to the power’s level.

That’s how you balance a game.
The other way isnt balancing, its powercreeping

Rofl, this is probably posted by a condi scrub. I’m tired of those guys trying to cry nerf rune of strength because DPS builds can actually fight back against condi spamming face roll classes. I’m not even kidding, lately in spvp and tpvp…I’m seeing a TON of condi spec classes just slapping like 40-50 conditions on a target in like 20 seconds or less. It’s not even funny. Nerf condis before you even consider nerfing strength runes. And I kitten you not (i typed kitten manually), a few solo queue matches in a row…I pvped a whole team of condis. Not kidding at all. We won because our team was more balanced but still…Cleansing all of those conditions were a pain and it’s not even fun when you run into a condi wall zerg.

News flash, if you play condition build, you are NOT SKILLED. Get it? NOT SKILLED. Go kitten yourselves if you think you are. It’s to compensate for your lack of skills. -_-

Honestly if power builds HAVE TO use strength runes to be viable then the big issue isn’t with the runes themselves. As someone who primarily plays power builds (and uses strength runes) I would agree with a nerf to strength runes. It’s basically free might stacks for everyone. I mean if you have strength runes why would you even go zerker? You can stack enough might to deal a crap ton of damage while using a soldier’s rune and still have the survivability.

Lettuce.2945:

Rofl, this is probably posted by a condi scrub. I’m tired of those guys trying to cry nerf rune of strength because DPS builds can actually fight back against condi spamming face roll classes. I’m not even kidding, lately in spvp and tpvp…I’m seeing a TON of condi spec classes just slapping like 40-50 conditions on a target in like 20 seconds or less. It’s not even funny. Nerf condis before you even consider nerfing strength runes. And I kitten you not (i typed kitten manually), a few solo queue matches in a row…I pvped a whole team of condis. Not kidding at all. We won because our team was more balanced but still…Cleansing all of those conditions were a pain and it’s not even fun when you run into a condi wall zerg.

News flash, if you play condition build, you are NOT SKILLED. Get it? NOT SKILLED. Go kitten yourselves if you think you are. It’s to compensate for your lack of skills. -_-

Not everyone plays in your world or by your rules. I run condi on my engi and necro occasionally thief but mostly power, sometimes condi on mesmer. My Main is a elementalist. The OP is asking for them to be nerfed because he says they make HIM to strong. I don’t want them nerfed and I play condi on certain classes. People do have alts and not everything is some hidden motive.

oZii.2864:

I don’t think every class should have plentiful boon removal that is what specializations are for. You don’t bring a Condi Mesmer for condition pressure you bring a necro or engi same concept here both of which also have boon removal abilities.

You don’t need to remove all the might all the time which I think some people are looking for, that would be a hard counter like diamond skin vs conditions. You just need to keep might low 5 stack of might and getting 7% modifier isn’t far off from 5 stack of might and a sigil of force.

To be honest even you listed those boon removals , actually effective to migh tstack and worth-taken ones are :
Shattered Concentration on shatter or shutdown mesmer
standard s/d thief build with Bountiful Theft and Larcenous Strike
power necro build with focus or axe and lich form and Well of Corruption

and from those builds the actually viable one in high level tpvp is s/d thief , and if your team is really good enough to carry a mesmer for portal ,we could say 2 builds in the entire game counter might stack .Not to mention mesmer build is pretty hard to land shatter considering war and ele have crazy a lot of aoe. And s/d thief is single target (also could we agree s/d thief is a bit op right now?).
Meanwhile, we got double ele or double war in team . I don’t think this kind of counter is enough

I understand that conditions are strong right now, but making one rune stronger than all others doesn’t change anything for the better. All it does is is make the game hollow. Rune of strength is too powerful. You get 15 stacks of might without even putting any effort in it. That is not balanced. If other runes were as strong it would be ok. But they aren’t; not even my a mile. Again, I have them in PvE and PvP and they outclass any other set I use on any of my eight lvl 80 characters.

oZii.2864:

Aberrant.6749:

Boon stripping is not plentiful enough to make these boons balanced.

Boon stripping is there just people aren’t traiting/building for it. Not every class has boon stripping ability but not every class has shouts either. That is what makes diverse classes a good thing.

From the wiki I count -

Boon Removal
Weapon skills- 2 mesmer weapon skills, 2 necromancer weapon skill,
Utility skills – 2 mesmer utility skills, 1 engineer utility skill

Profession mechanic
Engineer mine field

Elite
Necromancer Lich

Transfer
Larcenous strike

Convert boons 2 conditions
Necromancer WoC and Corrupt boon

Traits that remove boons
Searing Flames
Bountiful Theft
Acidic Elixirs
Shattered Concentration
Necromatic corruption

Equipment Sigil of Nullification

I don’t think every class should have plentiful boon removal that is what specializations are for. You don’t bring a Condi Mesmer for condition pressure you bring a necro or engi same concept here both of which also have boon removal abilities.

You don’t need to remove all the might all the time which I think some people are looking for, that would be a hard counter like diamond skin vs conditions. You just need to keep might low 5 stack of might and getting 7% modifier isn’t far off from 5 stack of might and a sigil of force.

It’s not that it doesn’t exist, it doesn’t exist in enough quantity/quality to be able to consider these runes balanced. 7% for having any might at all (which is very extremely to get) is too much. Things like the eng’s throw mine (the field toolbelt skill doesn’t remove any) are terrible and remove 1 boon. You’re almost certainly going to have more than just that one boon and be able to reapply the strength faster than the cooldown. Sorry if my post was confusing.

Aberrant.6749:

It’s not that it doesn’t exist, it doesn’t exist in enough quantity/quality to be able to consider these runes balanced. 7% for having any might at all (which is very extremely to get) is too much. Things like the eng’s throw mine (the field toolbelt skill doesn’t remove any) are terrible and remove 1 boon. You’re almost certainly going to have more than just that one boon and be able to reapply the strength faster than the cooldown. Sorry if my post was confusing.

Ahh ok I think I misunderstood

Buff other runes to its level.

oZii.2864:

Aberrant.6749:

It’s not that it doesn’t exist, it doesn’t exist in enough quantity/quality to be able to consider these runes balanced. 7% for having any might at all (which is very extremely to get) is too much. Things like the eng’s throw mine (the field toolbelt skill doesn’t remove any) are terrible and remove 1 boon. You’re almost certainly going to have more than just that one boon and be able to reapply the strength faster than the cooldown. Sorry if my post was confusing.

Ahh ok I think I misunderstood

That and often the sacrifices to obtain said boon removal/theft/corruption trade off too much just to be able to slow down a Might stacking build for a few seconds.

Basically the counters only really exist in an intellectual fashion rather than a practical one.

Which makes it tempting to just buff the everliving hell out of the boon removal options, the issue with that approach is it will completely shut down the option of running any other boon dependent build that isn’t a Might stacker. Which is a zero sum gain in exchange for the effort of making such changes when you think about it.

Which leaves adjusting the nail (rune) that is poking up above the others with a hammer.

Overkillengine.6084:

oZii.2864:

Aberrant.6749:

It’s not that it doesn’t exist, it doesn’t exist in enough quantity/quality to be able to consider these runes balanced. 7% for having any might at all (which is very extremely to get) is too much. Things like the eng’s throw mine (the field toolbelt skill doesn’t remove any) are terrible and remove 1 boon. You’re almost certainly going to have more than just that one boon and be able to reapply the strength faster than the cooldown. Sorry if my post was confusing.

Ahh ok I think I misunderstood

That and often the sacrifices to obtain said boon removal/theft/corruption trade off too much just to be able to slow down a Might stacking build for a few seconds.

Basically the counters only really exist in an intellectual fashion rather than a practical one.

Which makes it tempting to just buff the everliving hell out of the boon removal options, the issue with that approach is it will completely shut down the option of running any other boon dependent build that isn’t a Might stacker. Which is a zero sum gain in exchange for the effort of making such changes when you think about it.

Which leaves adjusting the nail (rune) that is poking up above the others with a hammer.

The standard counter to boon stacking is mesmers. No mesmer build sacrifices anything of note to have consistent and high output boon strip. Whether it’s shatter, PU, phantasm, lockdown, or whatever odd build you choose to play, a mesmer can keep any might stacking build empty of might reliably.

However, you don’t see many mesmers nowadays for other reasons. That’s why the might stacking is out of hand: the standard counter is missing.

True, Mesmer would be the best counter available; but they don’t bring enough of other things that also work reliably enough outside of a duel/extremely small fights.

So technically running Mesmer at all is the opportunity cost there.

Overkillengine.6084:

So technically running Mesmer at all is the opportunity cost there.

And this is the actual problem, not runes of strength.

BlackBeard.2873:

… It was already one of the best runes after the fixed the 6-piece bonus 6 months ago, but was competitive with ogre/hoelbrak/pack for most dps builds.

I bought some for 75 s even after the ferocity talk on twitch. But yeah, comparing to Hoelbrak they seem to get the better end, their difference -20% condition damage for Hoelbrak versus +15% might duration plus +7% damage. They’d be more on par if Hoelbrak got the same +% might duration as Strength, or the +damage of strength went down to 5%.

Right now, strength runes allow many builds with high survivability (d/d celestial ele, soldier’s hambow warrior) to get incredible damage by stacking up tons of might very easily.

You still have to generate might and it’s also just 35 power per stack. I have to ‘choose might’ into a Strength build at various decisions and something else usually is compromised.

Pyroathiest.4168:

Overkillengine.6084:

So technically running Mesmer at all is the opportunity cost there.

And this is the actual problem, not runes of strength.

The lack of a good counter is exacerbating the problem, true, but that does not change that objectively comparing the runes to other runes that grant similar bonuses leads to the conclusion that the runes themselves are also a bit over budget and are due some shaving.

Heck, I’m running a “weaker” rune set for Might stacking on a power Necro and so far it’s working very well. Almost too well.

Axialbloom.8109:

Buff other runes to its level.

Yesssss… let us have Perplexity and Noble in pvp, pl0x.

Just to make things fair.

Yes- let’s nerf the runes based on a player’s subjective experience. Makes sense.

We need to nerf rune of the monk since it’s 10% more healing then any other rune it’s like scholar runes for healing power.

Harper.4173:

Yes- let’s nerf the runes based on a player’s subjective experience. Makes sense.

It is far more than one player, and it is also pretty much objective evidence now.