Guild Wars 2

You know, this has been bugging me for a while. And I just feel cheated. I really don’t like the fact that professions are now going to be balanced based on popularity. Which profession deserves the most help right now? Well. The Engineer needs some skill and trait tweaks, the Ranger needs some skill and trait tweaks and their pet needs a little bit of help. The Elementalist needs some skill and trait tweaks. And the necromancer needs skill and trait tweaks and a complete overhaul of death shroud and their life stealing and their minion AI to be fixed. Not to mention their inability to escape combat.

I’ve also been looking at what the statistics are for the most popular professions are and most of what I’ve found puts Warrior at the top, followed closely by Elementalist and Ranger. And Mesmer, Engineer and Necromancer at the bottom. I see this as a major problem considering that, excluding mesmer because that’s Anet’s baby, because these professions are not getting the attention they really deserve.

Back in GW1 we had useless professions. Some as bad as the necro or engi are now and some worse. The Ritualist being in a worse position was stuck being unusable in PvE for years before they finally got a complete overhaul. While the Dervish, which was closer in usability to the necro or engi now, had to wait years before they got a complete overhaul. And those professions were extremely unpopular for a long long time before a well needed buff.

I’m going to compare the dervish to the necromancer of GW2 really quick because I feel their stories are rather similar. The Dervish was broken when it first came out. It could run around with no armor and never die. But after it got nerfed into the ground, it was nearly unusable. And this was only a short duration after it came out. Necromancer in Beta was nearly unkillable. And then it got nerfed(and is still getting nerfed) into the ground. What ended up helping the dervish was a complete overhaul. And it was needed. The nature of the beast was changed, but the heart of the profession stayed the same. I feel a sense of Déjà vu when I see whats going on with the necromancer in GW2 because we have seen this before.

Death shroud’s design is flawed. The Concept is something that I really like. However, Any one who plays the profession knows just how flawed the mechanic is. And how detrimental to play it can be. And this counter intuitive design that it has with the other major defensive thing the necromancer does, life stealing.

But that’s my opinion.

Your opinion is informed. Your fears are real in regards to this topic.

You are also not alone.

I echo those sentiments, although it has to be said that the ranger really is in a bad spot right now as well, along with necromancers. I’d personally put both rangers and necromancers at the top of most broken classes.

But I really hope this isn’t a popularity contest. If a class is so bad, that no one wants to play it, that is the class that deserves a fix most of all.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I echo those sentiments, although it has to be said that the ranger really is in a bad spot right now as well, along with necromancers. I’d personally put both rangers and necromancers at the top of most broken classes.

But I really hope this isn’t a popularity contest. If a class is so bad, that no one wants to play it, that is the class that deserves a fix most of all.

People say that, but I see on average, 6 rangers to every 1 necromancer. And the statistics I’m finding all put ranger at the top, being one of the most popular professions.

I too find it disturbing that a vote like this was cast in the first place, but the fact that you want to leave the Mesmer out of this, makes absolutely no sense to me.
A-nets baby?
The only reason to bring one is the portal and even that is not enough. There is a reason you do not see them that often in tpvp. They are not a part of the current meta.

What are your sources for these statistics? Engi and Necro by far are not the least played classes at least in PvP and they’re not exactly in a bad spot there either.

I’ll try to find as many links as possible. Although, finding a up to date list isn’t easy.

http://www.gamerevolution.com/news/guild-wars-2-gender-profession-race-and-craft-statistics-released-15061

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-the-first-year/

http://guildwars2viz.com/

In most the lists I can find, Necromancer, Engineer and Mesmer are bottom 3. And Ranger, Warrior and Elementalist are at the top. I excluded polls because only a small percentage actually do those. However, those tend to lean to this same conclusion as well.

Wait, have we decided that the Devs are incapable of keeping an eye on all classes because players have been asked to comment on one?

Lily, you have to realize those graphs take in to account all players. When it comes to PvP Kyon is correct. You have War, Gaurd, Ranger. Engi, Necro, Thief/Mesmer, and Ele is the least viable thus is only existant in low-tier tPvP and hot-joins.

WvW has a different population, Warrior, Guardian, Ele, and then roamer.

Organized PvE has Warrior, Guadian, Mesmer and then everything else.

Open World, well the map is about right. It pretty much shows what you will have in zerg PvE

I think part of the reason they asked for a vote is because they wanted to receive a lot of player feedback. It wasn’t “Hey guys, vote which we should balance first”, and then they go behind closed doors and start doing stuff on their own.

Instead, I feel that they wanted to handle a bunch of user feedback/suggestions for one profession at a time, instead of simply opening a thread that would become a cesspit of everything. It allows them to focus on and organize any of the feedback/suggestions for one profession without having to sift through tons and tons of posts of other professions.

I think your concerns are still somewhat valid, though I don’t feel like they’ll simply ignore other professions entirely while they work on the one that got voted (Ranger, in this case). Of course, it could be a lot of turnaround time for these CDI things. It’s possible that they’ll refine their system of doing things to be more efficient as they go along though.

Your first and third links are exactly the same information from the same source, just presented in two different locations, and with two different visual styles.

And you’re also neglecting the fact that all of those summaries are based on historical totals at the time the “census” (if you will) was taken. This means that none of that information is reflective of how popular a particular class (or weapon, or utility skill, or overall build, or build archetype) is compared to the others in the current game meta. For instance, how many new Ranger characters were created and played back when a solid 9 out of 10 bots was running a Ranger with a Brown Bear? And all of those bot rangers were probably included in the totals used.

Similarly, the Warrior has always been an effective and easy to play class, and therefore would naturally be played more than other professions by new players, and therefore would have inflated “popularity”.

If you really want to talk about the popularity of a particular class or build, then you have to ignore historical totals, and instead focus on what is being played right now in the meta. Out of all level 80 characters that are actively and regularly played in the current game meta, how many are a Warrior? How many are a Necro? How many are a Thief? And considering how much difference there is between the sPvP, WvWvW, and PvE game modes, and even the difference between dungeon PvE and open PvE, you would have to break it down by each game mode type as well.

On the whole, I think your choice to complain about the “popularity contest” as a means of expressing your views regarding the broken aspects of the necro class is not the best way to have handled it. It just confuses the issue and get’s people caught up in arguments over data sources and data accuracy, and ignores the main issue.

The main issue here is that you feel there are aspects of the necro class that are broken and need fixing (and you’re right), and that you feel they should not be delayed in being fixed merely based on the popularity or unpopularity of the class (and I would agree). Those are good points, but the way you make your point is too muddled to be of much real use.

Also, what Yamsandjams said…

..I feel that they wanted to handle a bunch of user feedback/suggestions for one profession at a time, instead of simply opening a thread that would become a cesspit of everything. It allows them to focus on and organize any of the feedback/suggestions for one profession without having to sift through tons and tons of posts of other professions….

Lily.1935:

You know, this has been bugging me for a while. And I just feel cheated. I really don’t like the fact that professions are now going to be balanced based on popularity. Which profession deserves the most help right now? Well. The Engineer needs some skill and trait tweaks, the Ranger needs some skill and trait tweaks and their pet needs a little bit of help. The Elementalist needs some skill and trait tweaks. And the necromancer needs skill and trait tweaks and a complete overhaul of death shroud and their life stealing and their minion AI to be fixed. Not to mention their inability to escape combat.

I’ve also been looking at what the statistics are for the most popular professions are and most of what I’ve found puts Warrior at the top, followed closely by Elementalist and Ranger. And Mesmer, Engineer and Necromancer at the bottom. I see this as a major problem considering that, excluding mesmer because that’s Anet’s baby, because these professions are not getting the attention they really deserve.

Back in GW1 we had useless professions. Some as bad as the necro or engi are now and some worse. The Ritualist being in a worse position was stuck being unusable in PvE for years before they finally got a complete overhaul. While the Dervish, which was closer in usability to the necro or engi now, had to wait years before they got a complete overhaul. And those professions were extremely unpopular for a long long time before a well needed buff.

I’m going to compare the dervish to the necromancer of GW2 really quick because I feel their stories are rather similar. The Dervish was broken when it first came out. It could run around with no armor and never die. But after it got nerfed into the ground, it was nearly unusable. And this was only a short duration after it came out. Necromancer in Beta was nearly unkillable. And then it got nerfed(and is still getting nerfed) into the ground. What ended up helping the dervish was a complete overhaul. And it was needed. The nature of the beast was changed, but the heart of the profession stayed the same. I feel a sense of Déjà vu when I see whats going on with the necromancer in GW2 because we have seen this before.

Death shroud’s design is flawed. The Concept is something that I really like. However, Any one who plays the profession knows just how flawed the mechanic is. And how detrimental to play it can be. And this counter intuitive design that it has with the other major defensive thing the necromancer does, life stealing.

But that’s my opinion.

we were all cheated because profession designs are subpar.

don’t worry, these cdi threads will amount to very little in the end anyway.

Drake Phoenix.6158:

Your first and third links are exactly the same information from the same source, just presented in two different locations, and with two different visual styles.

And you’re also neglecting the fact that all of those summaries are based on historical totals at the time the “census” (if you will) was taken. This means that none of that information is reflective of how popular a particular class (or weapon, or utility skill, or overall build, or build archetype) is compared to the others in the current game meta. For instance, how many new Ranger characters were created and played back when a solid 9 out of 10 bots was running a Ranger with a Brown Bear? And all of those bot rangers were probably included in the totals used.

Similarly, the Warrior has always been an effective and easy to play class, and therefore would naturally be played more than other professions by new players, and therefore would have inflated “popularity”.

If you really want to talk about the popularity of a particular class or build, then you have to ignore historical totals, and instead focus on what is being played right now in the meta. Out of all level 80 characters that are actively and regularly played in the current game meta, how many are a Warrior? How many are a Necro? How many are a Thief? And considering how much difference there is between the sPvP, WvWvW, and PvE game modes, and even the difference between dungeon PvE and open PvE, you would have to break it down by each game mode type as well.

On the whole, I think your choice to complain about the “popularity contest” as a means of expressing your views regarding the broken aspects of the necro class is not the best way to have handled it. It just confuses the issue and get’s people caught up in arguments over data sources and data accuracy, and ignores the main issue.

The main issue here is that you feel there are aspects of the necro class that are broken and need fixing (and you’re right), and that you feel they should not be delayed in being fixed merely based on the popularity or unpopularity of the class (and I would agree). Those are good points, but the way you make your point is too muddled to be of much real use.

Also, what Yamsandjams said…

..I feel that they wanted to handle a bunch of user feedback/suggestions for one profession at a time, instead of simply opening a thread that would become a cesspit of everything. It allows them to focus on and organize any of the feedback/suggestions for one profession without having to sift through tons and tons of posts of other professions….

I think you make some good points. Although that also brings up another issue. This information isn’t easy to access. And isn’t made public. I’m fairly cretin Arena net has all the statistics for how much each profession is played and were. I would like to know this information but I can see why arena net might have reasons not to release it to us. But like I said before, individual polls come up with close to the same information as what is displayed there.

Yes, my primary concern is with the necromancer profession. However, I also recognize the major problems with the Engineer as well. And I understand that the ranger does need help. However, I also know the ranger’s mechanic isn’t the thing that also keeps them alive and replaces most of their defensive abilities. The Ranger’s abilities are not working against itself like the necromancer’s do.

My opinion on how they are handling this is negative, and That really isn’t going to chance. I don’t have an alternative for this though.

The system won’t let me edit to add a TL;DR note like I want, so here it is…

ANet has many, many things that they must consider when deciding what changes to make, and when to make them. And similarly, what changes to wait on in favor of others. The impressions, feelings, and opinions of the player community must be a part of that. And so must issues of efficiency and economics.

Details follow in the new long post below…

The ranger mechanic may not be what they rely on for survivability, but it does work against the class. The basics of it come down to the fact that the pet makes up 30% of the ranger class’s total damage output, but the AI is useless, the pets don’t scale from stats (so 30% of their damage doesn’t scale from stats), and the pets are dead most of the time. The fact is, the majority of their time during combat, Rangers are without their mechanic (because it’s dead), and they are forced to try and operate at only 70% damage output, when all of their skills were “balanced” under the incorrect assumption that the pet would always be there to provide the extra damage.

This isn’t a survivability issue, no, but it is a major limiting factor in the overall functionality of the class. It also has a big impact on how desirable it is for the ranger to be taken in groups, whether it be a sPvP team, a WvW zerg, or a PvE dungeon group. The fact is, despite all the problems faced by necros and engineers, they are both more desirable in groups than rangers are in most situations.

It’s a different problem than survivability, but that doesn’t make it less significant. And personally, I find my necro to have better survivability than my ranger (though not by much, and I choose not to use bears because I hate them), and better damage output (which is why I almost always play my necro now instead of the ranger). Of course, part of it comes down to builds. Yes, a ranger can deal heavy damage despite the handicap of the pet, with the right build. Similarly, the necro can have solid survivability if using a build that focuses on it.

The real problem I have with the necro class mechanic is that it is used for a combination of both survival and damage, but there’s no real way to make it specialize in either one.

The reality is that there are numerous classes that need major changes and fixes. And it’s easiest for the development team to run major changes for one class at a time, and then evaluate how the changes impacted things before making final decisions on what to do with the next class they work on.

Considering the fact that class and skill balance is the single most difficult thing to do well and right in any MMO (followed by in-game economics as a close second), I actually like ANet’s approach… to an extent. Yes, it’s slow. Yes, it’s frustrating to see one class get major fixes and improvements while your favorite class doesn’t even get bug fixes for broken functionality. But they don’t rush changes without putting a lot of thought into them, and most of the time that means that the changes they do make are good ones (though sometimes they make bad decisions anyway… hey, they’re human).

But if they’re going to make major changes to only one class at a time so they can get it as right as possible and evaluate how it will impact other changes that may be needed for the other classes as well (not really a bad idea all things considered), then they have to start somewhere. And if they have to start somewhere, then why be completely arbitrary about it? Why not start with the class that the most people feel needs to be addressed?

If the majority of the community is going to have to wait regardless of which class they choose to work on first, and be angry about having to wait, then why not choose the largest minority?

Personally I’d rather see them fix bugs first, and then do rebalance once they have fully functional classes. But players are screaming about balance issues, and fixing bugs won’t necessarily help that in a big way.

ANet must consider the overall manpower needed to study, rework, and implement any changes. In the end, the company needs to make a profit. With that in mind, they will always be interested in trying to make the game work acceptably well for the largest number of their customers, but to do so in the way that is most efficient and economical to accomplish. If they fail to at least pacify the customers, and/or if they fail to make choices that make their changes as efficient and economical as possible, then they will lose money, period. And they have to keep that in mind.

The fact is, that with all of the considerations they have to make, choosing to go with a basic popularity check for basic community feedback was probably a very good decision on their part. At the very least it gives them a clear idea of where the community of players on the whole feels that attention needs to be paid (even if they disagree with us). You and I may disagree with the rest of the community, but the fact that ANet bother’s to even check with us isn’t a bad thing.

And I know I’m going to probably get 50 different people flaming me for having the audacity to actually believe that ANet cares what we think. But for now, I have faith… sue me. When I stop having faith, I’ll stop playing and move on.