Guild Wars 2

About the condition damage, in PvE, there’s always a problem: I can stack and mantain 10-15 stack of Bleeding but the same is for all the other players. That make my damage fall down my shoes.
What if, only in PvE, the Bleed stack can grow… whitout a limit?
What if a World Boss is killed whit 300 stack of bleeding up? What if in Dungeon 5 players can deal all they’re bleeding condition damage whitout problems?

In sPvP or WvsWvsW (expecially www) that can be a problem because that fix is made to contain the condition damage and I don’t want to change that.
But what if Only in PVE you can be able to stack unlimited amount of Bleeding?
That can make you able to deal damage whit your condition build whitout all that problems.
Off course, there’s also Burning and Poison, but that 2 conditions lasts for lesser time than Bleeding and only the Guardian fight whit Burn like principal condition damage source (in PvE) -and in PvE or PvP there’s not Guardians in Condition Build-

That fix can be good for who want to do a Dungeon whit it’s Condition build whitout be forced to swap into a Direct Damage build because your damage reduce the damage of all the other condition damage users.
Frequently when I go into a dungeon run and there’s another condition damage class/build I see my damage reduced why I can’t use all my damage. If there’s 3 condi class into the same dungeon team you’re forced to change your build and equip because whit 3 condi class you can’t deal damage.

And actually there’s some direct damage builds that inflict bleeding and full your stacks whit lesser condition damage (warriors whit sword, for example).

That’s an easy fix, like the skills changes between sPvP and PvE, and can resolve 66% of the condition damage problem in PvE (expecially in dungeon).

Can it be possible? Can it be made?

(P.s. sorry for my bad english)

That can make some classes (like necro) and all the Condition Buils more viable in PvE, expecially in Dungeons.

This is something the game desperately needs since release. But for what ever reason, the devs have not fixed it. Ever since the classes have been severely unbalanced in PVE.

I think the last excuse was that its more of a technical issue than balance issue. As in the server having to keep track of potentially too many separate bleed applications.

Not my words, just what I keep hearing.

It’s a technical limitation.

Run a condition build soloing an instance and you’ll see the DPS is pretty great, but other players applying burn/bleed/vuln/poison/torment kind of takes away from yours if you run it in groups.

I also really wish ANet would add condition damage amplification via vulnerability and damage modifiers like how direct damage is.

CratZ.6270:

I think the last excuse was that its more of a technical issue than balance issue. As in the server having to keep track of potentially too many separate bleed applications.

Not my words, just what I keep hearing.

This is exactly what it is, as it has been discussed to death several other times in previous threads on this exact same topic over and over and over again.

Listen, even if they removed the stack cap and you could keep perma burning and 25 stack bleeds, you’d still be doing less damage than a zerker spec.

The extra toughness wouldn’t even make a difference to make up for the damage either. The difference between 1800 toughness and 1200 toughness on fractal 50 mossman or archdiviner is none. You’re still going to get 2-shot if you eat an autoattack.

If the cap is indeed more of a technical issue, would a compromise be that instead of overwriting/dropping/ignoring condi over the stack, they it makes whatever would go away instead burst, maybe not as effective as it would be had it run it’s full duration, but at least a bone for the player.
I run mainly a Settler-gear staff mesmer in PvE, but since the last update i’ve been pulling out my scepter for any champs/World bosses since torment isn’t as common so less of my damage is lost due to stack capping, so i think something does need to be tweaked at least at that scale so that any condition focused build doesn’t lose out on damage while pure power builds don’t at that level of scaling.

I’m not sure how the current system works but what if every time a bleed was applied, it would first be compared to every other bleeds potential damage (duration * damage per tick). Only if the new bleed exceeds the lowest bleed in stack, does it replace the weakest bleed. Obviously if there is less than 25 in stack no comparison needs to be done.

This would help condition specs to get past “the queue” against all those random bleeds that non-condition specs keep applying. Same system for torment and other stuff too I guess but bleed is the main issue.

No idea how to fix burning and poison. And, yes, there will still be issues when multiple condi specs are attacking same boss.

Conditions= attrition, slow damage over time
pve= burst
????
condi= solo
direct damage= group

How is this hard to get?

The problem is not that in pve you will always deal more damage whit direct damage than what you can do whit condition damage. No one can replace a zerker damage whit a condi damage, expecially in dungeon.

If they make bleed stack unlimited no one will replace zerkers in pve (expecially in dungeons) but if you want to play your kitten ranger/war/necro/… you will be able to play and do your “full” damage whitout problems if there’s another condi build in team.

Then, if there’s a tecnical issue and ANet can’t do that, there’s nothing to say…

Condi damage on some classes ( mesmers, pre patch rangers, warriors, engis, necros) outdamages berserker setups in solo, at least on high armored targets and even on everything else for other classes. You also gain toughness. They are more damaging, more tanky. Just slower. The technical issue has been discuted ad nauseam and anet stated long ago they won’t do anything about it because they can’t. The lag is already high enough at world bosses, calculating 500 bleeds will make it even worse.

Zenith.7301:

Listen, even if they removed the stack cap and you could keep perma burning and 25 stack bleeds, you’d still be doing less damage than a zerker spec.

This isn’t about damage comparison, its about multi condi-specs in a party. If 1 member can stack up 25 bleeds, the damage output will stay the same if 5 players can output 25 stacks of bleed, because of this cap.

oxtred.7658:

Conditions= attrition, slow damage over time
pve= burst
????
condi= solo
direct damage= group

How is this hard to get?

You are totally right, I shouldnt be allowed to play condi damage in groups. I am not permitted to like it. I should play whats best, not what I enjoy the most. Thanks for bringing this up again

It is indeed a technical issue. Every bleeding tick needs to be tracked and this is eating up resources. If they remove the cap total, there would be way too much processing for the servers to handle.
This does not mean its impossible to fix the condi-specs tho. Expending the servers processing power is an option, altho it would be way too expensive for anet to buy and maintain. They should think of a way that condi’s could somehow work together without upping the needed processing.

kitmehsu.5738:

If the cap is indeed more of a technical issue, would a compromise be that instead of overwriting/dropping/ignoring condi over the stack, they it makes whatever would go away instead burst, maybe not as effective as it would be had it run it’s full duration, but at least a bone for the player.

Suggestions like this could help

Aren’t you allowed to play condi? Like, is there a mod watching you and getting you a perma ban if you use condi? You just want your playstyle to be superior to others in term of efficiency. If you want to bring your condi guard to dungeons you will succeed and end the path, but yeah, our speedruns will be faster. Do you want that to change?

oxtred.7658:

Aren’t you allowed to play condi? Like, is there a mod watching you and getting you a perma ban if you use condi? You just want your playstyle to be superior to others in term of efficiency. If you want to bring your condi guard to dungeons you will succeed and end the path, but yeah, our speedruns will be faster. Do you want that to change?

ehm… wath?
I don’t pretend to be more good than other classes and there’s no one that ban me if I use a condi build. I want only to be able to deal all my damage, like in other games, where every condition (more frequently called DoT, in other games) deal it’s damage and there’s no problem about stacks&co.
A condi build deal lesser damage than a full zerk class, and I don’t want change that. I want only be able to deal all my damage whitout reduce the damage mine and of an ally only because our stacks of bleeding can’t grow more than 25.

(sorry for my bad english)

Point is, condi already outdamages zerker in some cases. They aren’t suited for group pve that’s all. It’s a mechanic problem: a slow ramp up damage isn’t suited for dungeons, and since most condis come from on crit effects or direct damage utilities, a berserker also stack 25 bleeds, while having far superior direct damage. DoT in other games aren’t as op as gw2’s. Bleeds, burning and poison are balanced around the cap.

oxtred.7658:

Point is, condi already outdamages zerker in some cases. They aren’t suited for group pve that’s all. It’s a mechanic problem: a slow ramp up damage isn’t suited for dungeons, and since most condis come from on crit effects or direct damage utilities, a berserker also stack 25 bleeds, while having far superior direct damage. DoT in other games aren’t as op as gw2’s. Bleeds, burning and poison are balanced around the cap.

Point is, if I want to play condi, I will play condi.
This whole thread isnt even about effiency, its about the cap condi’s have. Why should you limit condis to only 25 stacks, and dont limit Direct Damage to say 10k/hit? Not to mention those 25 stacks are total, if you can apply 25 stacks on your own, great! But other condi-damagers wont be able to deal damage anymore. Just like you said, Direct Damage does way more damage than conditions, so tell me again why condi’s should be capped?

Sure your full zerker group speedruns will be faster, and im not saying condi is better. But condi is a playstyle, just like your zerker.
Only this playstyle will suffer from having multiple in your group, unlike berserker.

If you are just here to say “hurr durr go berserker, its the only way to go” then please leave. This is just a discussion about making conditions more viable.

You’re completely ignoring his point.

Condition damage is capped because of the stack. The stack can’t be increased because of technical limitations. Therefore you can beg and beg and beg and beg and beg all you want, but conditions will never be effective in groups because of this cap, and the DoT nature of conditions so as opposed to the burst of direct damage.

Do I want conditions to be viable? Sure, it would actually be great. Will it happen? No. Is it fair? No, not really, but that doesn’t change anything.

I’m saying go whatever and stop enforcing your playstyle on others. Getting agressive won’t make your point better. Condis are viable, everything is viable. They are far from optimal, though. And if you want condi to be optimal, then we have a problem. You can take any condi spec and do fine in all dungeons, you just don’t contribute for your party as much as a direct damage spec. You don’t care? I don’t either, but I’m still getting insulted because of your frustration.

No one forcing anyone to do anything. All we are saying is that is that their should be a change to prevent diminishing returns from multiple condition damage builds in PVE, especially in a game so fundamentally cooperative as GW2.
Damage over time should do better than burst damage when dealing with larger health targets since the average DPS is more important than front loading in this situation, while low health targets should favor Burst since the front loading damage allows for quicker kills, even if their DPS is the same. But as it is right now, Burst is universally favored as the main source of DoT, conditions, has a hard limit when dealing with multiple sources, which is almost always the case as when you find something with a large enough health that would hypothetically make attrition damage more valuable is in a group activity.

I also don’t think Condition should out do a Zerker in pure DPS since that is geared for pure damage, but I do feel that a Dire[CD+T/V] should be able to out damage a Solider [P+T/V] regardless of group composition as Condition’s lack the front loading and required set-up time does require some sort of compensation.

Also, thank you Meryn for the general vote of confidence in the direction of my sugestion.