Guild Wars 2

So if Arenanet doesn’t want to change the cap on conditions how about if they just double/triple the damage from condis in dungeons, meaning that if a necro/ranger/engineer can keep up 15 stacks of bleeds on a target they are doing 3000/4500 DPS? This would make groups willing to take at least one condi class and open up dungeon variety in my opinion. Some ranger builds can keep up 20+ stacks of bleeds on a target. Instantly condi builds would become viable and zerker wouldn’t have to be the only option.

Is this a bad idea? It was just something which occurred to me as a possible solution for the zerker dungeon meta

Good idea because Condition DMG is realy low.

Condition DMG has a +-30% DPS as Direct hit DMG.
2800 Condition DMG -> Bleed DMG 183/2745(15 stack) DPS, Burning 1028 DPS, Poison 360 DPS = 4133 DPS.

I make with same gear/food/might stack 5.5-9k per autoattack crit hit vs 3 targets = 11-18k DPS (Autoattack speed is 0.5 sec per hit)

Warrior make 42k+ Hundred Blades every 8sec, 3.5 sec cast time = 12k DPS without full might stack.

PvE use mostly the same balance as WvW, so it would be screwed up.
Changing mobs EHP (higher armor, lower hp) would make condi damage closer to direct damage.

Evilek.5690:

Good idea because Condition DMG is realy low.

Condition DMG has a +-30% DPS as Direct hit DMG.
2800 Condition DMG -> Bleed DMG 183/2745(15 stack) DPS, Burning 1028 DPS, Poison 360 DPS = 4133 DPS.

I make with same gear/food/might stack 5.5-9k per autoattack crit hit vs 3 targets = 11-18k DPS (Autoattack speed is 0.5 sec per hit)

Warrior make 42k+ Hundred Blades every 8sec, 3.5 sec cast time = 12k DPS without full might stack.

But there are other factors to include like dodging a warrior can’t stay in one spot and keep using 100b but condis can run around evade and still do damage.

The main problem with condition damage in pve is simply the fact that all the mutipliers direct damage can recieve don’t touch a condition spec’s output. +% damage, Vulnerability, Critical Damage % and others.

The other problem is that the majority of PvE mobs have very little direct damage mitigation, the primary advantage of conditions being to bypass that.

I think your idea is just some kind of a hot-fix (easy to apply, but not the best solution). To make conditions viable in PvE there needs to be done a complete redesign.

The problem of conditions isn’t the damage alone:

• You can’t use CC, because of defiant and unshakable:
  Introduce a “rage-mode” for every boss, if he gets too many hard CC within too short time (stunlock), the boss get buffed with stability, swiftness and fury/might.
• There is no need to kite bosses in current design:
  Kite them to position X and they get damaged (exception: dredge fractal)
• There is no need to kite enemies, because you can dodge every single attack of bosses
• There are no bosses with high toughness:
  “Difficulty” of bosses is made due to vitality (life sponge) and not toughness. There is not a single boss with high toughness, so conditions would deal more damage then power builds (due to the effect, that they ignore armor).

I could go on with this, but everything was writing in this thread over a year ago:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Endgame-PvE-Difficulty-comes-down-to-dodging/first

Tripling condition damage to put it on par with zerkers would lower the skill-ceiling. Right now, conditions are only affected by one stat, whereas direct damage is affected by 3 stats. If condition damage had a multiplier much like crit damage and an occurance much like crit chance (Hell, you could even use precision and crit damage to make conditions crit, gives anet a chance to implement a new gear set too) Then i’d be all open for it. But in it’s current state conditions are not worth it.

Condition Builds rely on 3+ stats (well, most of them do)
Crit damage = condi duration (increase damage dealt by x%)
Crti chance = crit chance (apply additional conditions from traits/sigils)
Additionally Condition builds need a bit more defense because their damage is lower and building up (DoT)

So in theory those stats are there, BUT:
- No one uses duration in PvP because of the amount of cleanse available. Most of the time those extra seconds are wasted, because they won’t apply their damage. And duration is limited in PvP as well.
- In PvE the extra conditions from sigils/traits are wasted, because most of the time the Stacks are full anyways. Throwing more conditions at an enemy is wasted, because they wont apply their damage.

Evilek.5690:

Warrior make 42k+ Hundred Blades every 8sec, 3.5 sec cast time = 12k DPS without full might stack.

I have never seen 42k+ 100b without might stacks. Got a screenshot perhaps? Just keep in mind that almost any warrior dealing that amount of damage traits for forceful greatsword which gives might stacks.

unleashed.8679:

The problem of conditions isn’t the damage alone:

• You can’t use CC, because of defiant and unshakable:
  Introduce a “rage-mode” for every boss, if he gets too many hard CC within too short time (stunlock), the boss get buffed with stability, swiftness and fury/might.

You can use CC, you just have to coordinate it. Thoughtless spamming of CC should never work.

• There is no need to kite bosses in current design:
  Kite them to position X and they get damaged (exception: dredge fractal)
• There is no need to kite enemies, because you can dodge every single attack of bosses

I’d like to see people that claim this to fight mossman or archdiviner at high scales. Dodge every single attack of them without kiting and I’ll applaud you. You keep using hyperboles and that’s not a thing you’d want to use in a serious discussion.

• There are no bosses with high toughness:
  “Difficulty” of bosses is made due to vitality (life sponge) and not toughness. There is not a single boss with high toughness, so conditions would deal more damage then power builds (due to the effect, that they ignore armor).

How would toughness not be a life sponge? Instead of promoting direct damage, you’d promote condition damage which arguably is much easier to play. Build diversity achieved by the cost of lowering already low skill cap isn’t something I would like to see.

Heck, if everyone wants build diversity so much, anet should also buff AI specs. I’m sure pvp-ers would appreciate that.

haviz.1340:

unleashed.8679:

The problem of conditions isn’t the damage alone:

• You can’t use CC, because of defiant and unshakable:
  Introduce a “rage-mode” for every boss, if he gets too many hard CC within too short time (stunlock), the boss get buffed with stability, swiftness and fury/might.

You can use CC, you just have to coordinate it. Thoughtless spamming of CC should never work.

You have to fight through 7 or more stacks of defiant to land one single hard CC. All of them have high CDs. So even with coordination it is nearly impossible to time those CCs (interrupts).

Spamming CC should not work, but here would the “rage-mode” come into play.
If the party uses CC to much, the boss gets immune to it and much stronger. So you have to think, what you are doing. I probably should mention that the stability can’t be removed (probably should call it CC immunity).

haviz.1340:

• There is no need to kite bosses in current design:
  Kite them to position X and they get damaged (exception: dredge fractal)
• There is no need to kite enemies, because you can dodge every single attack of bosses

I’d like to see people that claim this to fight mossman or archdiviner at high scales. Dodge every single attack of them without kiting and I’ll applaud you. You keep using hyperboles and that’s not a thing you’d want to use in a serious discussion.

Put two hammer guards in front of the mossman with perma-protection and you can kill him without kiting (at least before last fractal patch, didn’t test it afterwards).

haviz.1340:

• There are no bosses with high toughness:
  “Difficulty” of bosses is made due to vitality (life sponge) and not toughness. There is not a single boss with high toughness, so conditions would deal more damage then power builds (due to the effect, that they ignore armor).

How would toughness not be a life sponge? Instead of promoting direct damage, you’d promote condition damage which arguably is much easier to play. Build diversity achieved by the cost of lowering already low skill cap isn’t something I would like to see.

It would crate content, in which zerker gear didn’t shine. Something different to current meta. Lets say power damage is reduced by factor 10. You would love to bring a condition class with you.

Btw, why do you think it needs more skill to play direct damage? You just have to hit the enemy, no matter what kind of damage you do.

haviz.1340:

Heck, if everyone wants build diversity so much, anet should also buff AI specs. I’m sure pvp-ers would appreciate that.

If no one wants build diversity, why not delete every armor except of berserker ones?
And delete every condition skill, … ?
They are in the game, so why should they be ignored/under powered in PvE?

unleashed.8679:

You have to fight through 7 or more stacks of defiant to land one single hard CC. All of them have high CDs. So even with coordination it is nearly impossible to time those CCs (interrupts).

Spamming CC should not work, but here would the “rage-mode” come into play.
If the party uses CC to much, the boss gets immune to it and much stronger. So you have to think, what you are doing. I probably should mention that the stability can’t be removed (probably should call it CC immunity).

It’s 5 not 7 and somehow my teams ae able to stuns fractal bosses for up to 5 seconds.

Put two hammer guards in front of the mossman with perma-protection and you can kill him without kiting (at least before last fractal patch, didn’t test it afterwards).

Why 2? You can do it with 1. But is it about dodging or abusing guardians? I thought you had written that you could have dodge everything, not tank it. You can tank almost every boss with right trait and gear (clerics, etc) but we already knew it.

It would crate content, in which zerker gear didn’t shine. Something different to current meta. Lets say power damage is reduced by factor 10. You would love to bring a condition class with you.

Btw, why do you think it needs more skill to play direct damage? You just have to hit the enemy, no matter what kind of damage you do.

But then we have condies > power. So what exactly is the difference? Do you want to change it just for the sake of it?

Condition damage builds usually have low skill cap due to tankiness, reducing damage through condies (chill, weakness, cripple) and usually being ranged playstyle. In the meantime, power builds usually need to go up closer to enemy and are glassier.

If no one wants build diversity, why not delete every armor except of berserker ones?
And delete every condition skill, … ?
They are in the game, so why should they be ignored/under powered in PvE?

Your build is determined by traits, weapon choice, traits choice and utilities choice. You gear puts you on defense-offense scale.

If it were up to me, I’d delete every gear (stats). It just binds you to one playstyle (especially with ascended) and make so that your entire build is encompassed by traits. But since we cannot have nice things we have to deal with what we have. This game was advertised with the active combat in mind, condition damage builds are antithesis of it.

That’s not entirely true.
You’d be hard pressed to find Team Based FPSs without poison or burning DoTs. Those are definitely action games, orders of magnitudes more than this one is.

Honestly, I think Mob AI just needs to get it’s ducks in a row so that mobs are moving of their own accord across the playing field and don’t just follow players all the time. That way PvP and PvE balance concerns aren’t in such a sharp contrast. If shoestring budget Warframe can get mob AI that executes basic cover strategies, GW2 can certainly take a step up from Burning Crusade-era AI behaviors.

Probably the minimum is 5, but is goes most of the time in regions 10+
probably Pets count here as well.

Why 2? You can do it with 1. But is it about dodging or abusing guardians? I thought you had written that you could have dodge everything, not tank it. You can tank almost every boss with right trait and gear (clerics, etc) but we already knew it.

probably dodge was the wrong word here, but you can melee them and you don’t need tanky stats for this

Who cares if you get hit, you will survive it.

But then we have condies > power. So what exactly is the difference? Do you want to change it just for the sake of it?

Where is the problem here? Because zerker gear wouldn’t be #1 anymore?

This does not mean, power builds are useless and can’t beat that boss. It just won’t be the easy way anymore.

Condition damage builds usually have low skill cap due to tankiness, reducing damage through condies (chill, weakness, cripple) and usually being ranged playstyle. In the meantime, power builds usually need to go up closer to enemy and are glassier.

No one wants these tankiness, it is just there by design. There is no Condidamage, duration precision set available. Do you need less skill there for? No.

Your build is determined by traits, weapon choice, traits choice and utilities choice. You gear puts you on defense-offense scale.

If it were up to me, I’d delete every gear (stats). It just binds you to one playstyle (especially with ascended) and make so that your entire build is encompassed by traits. But since we cannot have nice things we have to deal with what we have. This game was advertised with the active combat in mind, condition damage builds are antithesis of it.

Why are conditions against active combat?

• You have to hit your target: Y
• You can dodge conditions: Y
• You can Block conditions: Y
• You can cast while moving: Y

unleashed.8679:

Probably the minimum is 5, but is goes most of the time in regions 10+
probably Pets count here as well.

The minimum is 3 and it goes above 5 only in the open world.

probably dodge was the wrong word here, but you can melee them and you don’t need tanky stats for this

Who cares if you get hit, you will survive it.

Then maybe the problem is with a guardian? Try doing it with any other team composition.

Where is the problem here? Because zerker gear wouldn’t be #1 anymore?

This does not mean, power builds are useless and can’t beat that boss. It just won’t be the easy way anymore.

Berserker’s gear, as well as rampager’s and assassin’s are all the most squishy. Why something that gives you a cushion in the form of either toughness, vitality or healing power be any better? Low risk, higher rewards? That doesn’t make any sense.

No one wants these tankiness, it is just there by design. There is no Condidamage, duration precision set available. Do you need less skill there for? No.

Tankiness is not the only thing making them less skillful.

Why are conditions against active combat?

• You have to hit your target: Y
• You can dodge conditions: Y
• You can Block conditions: Y
• You can cast while moving: Y

Because you can kite around and spam condies. How do you play as condy necro or a mesmer? You stay back.

I disagree. Instead, When condi stacks reaches max, it turns into direct damage. Less server killing and more happy players.

haviz.1340:

Why are conditions against active combat?

• You have to hit your target: Y
• You can dodge conditions: Y
• You can Block conditions: Y
• You can cast while moving: Y

Because you can kite around and spam condies. How do you play as condy necro or a mesmer? You stay back.

That’s just ranged combat how can you kite with the warrior sword?
Btw how do you play power ranger longbow? You stay back.
how do you play power scepter guardian? You stay back.
…

Any kind of player behavior triggered rage mode or such would violate ANet’s anti-griefing design.

Me, i’m for a simple solution. Have damaging conditions “explode” and reset when they reach a certain limit (max stack on those that do so, some multiple of 10 seconds on those that don’t).

If need be, only make it relevant with mobs that have unshakable. Thus to avoid problems with WVW and SPVP.

This would be a terrible change. My Ele has Burning AoE that ticks for nearly 900 and my AoE Bleeding can deal 2k+ damage. That is on top of the other damage i deal. If Condition damage was buffed that much it would be insane.

Tim.6450:

That’s just ranged combat how can you kite with the warrior sword?
Btw how do you play power ranger longbow? You stay back.
how do you play power scepter guardian? You stay back.
…

And all of those builds have one thing in common, they are bad and shouldn’t be buffed because that would lower an already low skill cap.

While GW2 dungeons has a huge amount of problems, I really feel this is a problem with player mentality more than anything. If you are running dungeons through LFG, then the name of the game is speedruns for gold/tokens and the dungeon is cof p1 (or 2,3 but probably not) because it’s quick and easy and cof tokens give zerker weapons and everyone loves zerker (especially for PvE). Playing dungeons for fun can be harsh and I find that it is sometimes almost frowned upon. Suggestions that y’know maybe this once we try to kill this boss in a non-exploity way or not skip this boss because hey, might still drop something or maybe even BE FUN, but this is almost always met with stony silence or a kick.
There seems to be a silent agreement that no one really likes to run dungeons, so it’s best to just do it the fastest way possible, because the rewards kinda sorta make it worth it.
I Insist on being weird/chatty in party chat when speedrunning through LFG because I can’t stand the let’s-just-get-this-over-with mentality with no one even acknowledging the presence of each other but just mindlessly repeating tasks in order to get the rewards and move on to something more fun.

If you are not running dungeons through LFG then I dunno, get better friends?