Guild Wars 2

Necromancer is my favorite class in the game, and it saddens me that we are considered the worst class in PvE. While our single target damage is perfectly fine, and our lack of cleave is compensated with wells and locust swarm, we have no ways enhancing our parties DPS or providing damage mitigation (other than blinds, which thieves do better).

I suggest that Arenanet focuses future trait-balancing efforts at addressing this issue, as its completly unfair that necromancer is the only professions with 0 useful party support.

A few easy enough ideas that I’ve seen include:

1. A new probably master level soul reaping trait that increases the ferocity of the necro and his party members by say 150 (or more) when the necromancer is in death shroud, and lingers for a few seconds after it leaves death shroud. This would be a unique buff similar to spotter and empowering allies.

2. Another idea is a new adept level blood magic trait that allows the necro and its allies to siphon a considerable amount of health on each hit for say 10 seconds when a well is used, and the buff is given to anyone standing in that well.

3. A new GM in curses called army of corruption. What it will do is apply an army of corruption effect to allies for say ten seconds when you use a corruption skill. This effect would be a flat minor boost to precision and condition damage (the theme of the tree) and also provide a minor target the weak like direct damage increase, say 1% additional damage per condition on enemy(s). This would encourage the use of applying both damaging and non-damaging conditions to enemies for a party wide DPS increase without actually promoting condition builds that just leech from the zerker meta.

These traits would be simple to implement and could actually make necromancer a viable pick over ranger or warrior in high end PvE. I also believe that these changes would create a much less toxic PvE metagame for necromancers. The DnT tournament brought 0 necromancers on any team, not because their damage isn’t top tier, but because other classes with similar damage can enhance the damage of the party. The metagame is disgraceful when a clear worst class for every situation can be pointed out. It promotes people kicking and rejecting necromancers and furthers to the elitism of many more prominent and heavily armored classes that are making PvE a more toxic environment.

I aggree that necromancers need team suport but why does it have to be in the form of a buff. Why can’t we invent a nice debuf that is given to our enemies? Like:
death shiver becomes ‘nearby foes lose 150 toughness’.

absolutely agree with op, great ideas. I would however be more inclined to agree with Tim’s post in that it would be keeping with the necro’s general theme. still solid ideas and a much needed discussion.

Perhaps. PvE isn’t really designed around debuffs though, but if its in a source more powerful and useful than a condition, that can’t be removed by a boss, then a debuff would work, but it would have to be a very strong debuff to be viable.

Tim.6450:

I aggree that necromancers need team suport but why does it have to be in the form of a buff. Why can’t we invent a nice debuf that is given to our enemies? Like:
death shiver becomes ‘nearby foes lose 150 toughness’.

Necromancers are not foreign to buffs, despite ANet not wanting us to have boons. GW1 Necros had plenty of support options that still very much fit the theme of Necromancer and were very strong.

Bhawb.7408:

Necromancers are not foreign to buffs, despite ANet not wanting us to have boons. GW1 Necros had plenty of support options that still very much fit the theme of Necromancer and were very strong.

It’s not that I don’t want necro’s to give buffs to the allies, it’s just that when you look at offensive support there is already so much buffs given (might, fury, spotter,frost spirit, empower allies, banners, venoms and quickness) while debuffs have vulnerability,signet of vampirism and that’s it.

Death Shiver would be an awesome trait, but being 20 points into Death Magic makes it really hard to build around. You’ll end up having to sacrifice something like Executioner or Target the Weak, which personally would provide more damage. Second, Death Shiver requires you to sit in DS for extended periods of time, so without traiting into Soul Reaping, DS would end up gimping you in the time it takes to get a second tick from Death Shiver. Lastly, in Death Magic there isn’t anything to hook PVE players in. The two minor traits just make staying in DS easier, and none of the traits offer any unique or meaningful utility. The best option is Ritual of Protection, which is kind of useful. If Death Shiver were an adept, I’d put 10 points into that line in a heartbeat.

The idea I had would be Malicious Aura. It would be a trait that gives 170 malice to allies within range. If the trait isn’t buried deep into a useless trait line, then it would be worth picking up for the additional unique condi buff it would provide.

Okay, you guys not named Bhawb are tossing around lackluster ideas that pigeonhole necromancer into being the damage over time master, and through conditions, which have terrible application in explorable dungeons and fractals, besides other forms of PvE. In other MMOs, its always the dark caster class that is sterotyped into this role, and I believed DoT classes in other MMOs are actually viable, although I can’t say that for certain since I never got that far into any other MMOs :p

The +Condition damage to allies trait is an okay idea, but I’d suspect that its actual damage increase in pve would be negligible, and much less than the support another class could contribute. Unless the zerker meta changes, which I don’t see happening, such a trait would need a bit more use. If you check my original post, I’ve updated with a new trait idea that improves upon that concept.

Secondly Tim: I understand that other classes have their forms of support which are unique. I’m not trying to give the necromancer identical offensive support options to other classes, but there has to be a reason to take necromancer over a class that has those unique support options. And if the debuff is a condition, which you imply, then necromancers will still amount to nothing in pve. Vulnerabliity is not necro-specific and we are easily outdone by engineers and other classes that necro isn’t needed at all for more vuln. The other non-damaging conditions do next to nothing for actually debuffing most bosses, besides giving us more target the weak procs.

Anyway check my original post again as I shall amend it with new but worthwhile ideas.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Second, Death Shiver requires you to sit in DS for extended periods of time, so without traiting into Soul Reaping, DS would end up gimping you in the time it takes to get a second tick from Death Shiver.

My idea would remove the “in DS” requirement.

nearlight.3064:

And if the debuff is a condition, which you imply, then necromancers will still amount to nothing in pve.

Where did I imply that? If wanted it to be a condition (which I don’t) I would have written it. It would be just like ‘empower allies’ just that the effect was reduced tougness and applied on the enemy. So the only way for the enemy to get rid of the effect is to get the necro either outside of range or dead.

nearlight.3064:

A new GM in curses called army of corruption. What it will do is apply an army of corruption effect to allies for say ten seconds when you use a corruption skill. This effect would be a flat minor boost to precision and condition damage (the theme of the tree) and also provide a minor target the weak like direct damage increase, say 1% additional damage per condition on enemy(s). This would encourage the use of applying both damaging and non-damaging conditions to enemies for a party wide DPS increase without actually promoting condition builds that just leech from the zerker meta.

The only way to get an uptime of 100% (which would be practically required), Is too take epidemic and another corrutpion skill with the two corruption traits. Which means you have to sacrifice a well and the warhorn trait. The enemies also need to have at least 8 conditions on them all the time to equal a frost spirit/spotter ranger in terms of group support. So I don’t think this trait is the solution.

Tim.6450:

The only way to get an uptime of 100% (which would be practically required), Is too take epidemic and another corrutpion skill with the two corruption traits. Which means you have to sacrifice a well and the warhorn trait. The enemies also need to have at least 8 conditions on them all the time to equal a frost spirit/spotter ranger in terms of group support. So I don’t think this trait is the solution.

Ah now I see, I read the posts and thought you mentioned something about vulnerability, which you did in a separate post, so I apologize for that.

Anyway as for my corruption trait idea, the warhorn trait wouldn’t be a huge loss to sacrifice for the benefit of the party, as would making the choice between signet of spite or well of suffering, which I now realize could be a problem because the other classes typically don’t have to give up personal damage utilities to offer support in PvE. Anyway, the duration or magnitude of the traits effect could be tweaked to make it better, and it could be merged with master of corruption to be even stronger, however I don’t want a utility that is too brokenly overpowered, nor do I want something overpowered in other game modes, which this wouldn’t be. My orignal reasoning behind the trait was that you could use blood is power for a great self buff (although redundant in organized groups) for one proc, and then epidemic (probably over signet of spite) to maintain the proc and also spread conditions to enemies so that our burst AoE skills and our ally’s cleave could do more damage.

The overall point of my idea is to simultaneously give us significant group damage utility, while also giving the party a reason to apply as many conditions to enemies as possible. I think your non-condi debuff idea has merit as well, however it depends on the numbers and uptime potential that will determine whether or not any of these ideas can be viable.

Besides that my only other ideas atm are making well of darkness a smoke field for stealth blasting, or some trait that makes wells destroy projectiles, but neither of those utility changes really make sense.

What we need to do is show the developers that fixing the necro in PvE is a relatively simple task and that the benefits for the community would be considerable. With all the elitist pugs out there avoiding necro made parties or kicking necros in even casual runs, let alone our inability to play necro in high end speedruns, it is time for us necros to stand together and let the balance developers of this game know that we are not to be ignored, and that change will happen so that necromancers can join any dungeon party and feel like they can contribute to making the party better, at least as good as they could on any of the other classes.

btw MoP Barbs….

Just want to add that necros do have party sustainability aid. Not as obvious but they do.
First off all wells but well of blood = all dark combo fields, which means hp drain on projectile & whirl finishers and blids on blast and leap finishers.

Secondly we got that trait adding short protection when a well is casted.

And signet of vampirism is our “tag’em and drain’em” skill. Also there’s that blood magic trait that heals allies when using life transfer in death shroud.

Not saying they make necro a boon machine, but he’s not totally naked in terms of party support.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Just want to add that necros do have party sustainability aid. Not as obvious but they do.
First off all wells but well of blood = all dark combo fields, which means hp drain on projectile & whirl finishers and blids on blast and leap finishers.

Secondly we got that trait adding short protection when a well is casted.

And signet of vampirism is our “tag’em and drain’em” skill. Also there’s that blood magic trait that heals allies when using life transfer in death shroud.

Not saying they make necro a boon machine, but he’s not totally naked in terms of party support.

These support options aren’t good enough to have an important place in PvE. Defensive support in PvE isn’t about healing and recovery, its about active mitigation through sources such as aegis and projectile deflection/reflection, as well as individuals using dodges appropriately to not take damage in the first place.

Transfusion is also a bad trait for PvE, even though it works on pvp MM builds and more support oriented WvW builds. Going into blood magic (and death magic) at all is bad for a necro’s DPS output in PvE, and the support gained by transfusion or ritual of protection is certainly not enough to justify giving up any of our must have traits from the current meta necro builds (6/6/0/0/2 for good groups 6/2/0/0/6 for bad groups). A few seconds of protection and an AoE heal are basically useless in PvE, that you are basically gimping yourself by running any of those traits.

In PvE being able to kill a boss as fast as possible, or to nullify its attacks so you can kill it as fast is possible is what is important. Any changes for the future must provide a way that the necromancer can allow his entire party to kill a boss faster, and whirling dark fields and AoE heals don’t accomplish that. Signet of Vampirism is also too weak to justify actually using. If a blood magic or death magic trait provided the type of offesive support that we actually need to truly be viable in PvE, then it could be worth it to go into those traitlines.

You did however miss out one of Necro’s only party support options, which is blowing up bone minions to blast fire/smoke fields before an engagement starts.

nearlight.3064:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Just want to add that necros do have party sustainability aid. Not as obvious but they do.
First off all wells but well of blood = all dark combo fields, which means hp drain on projectile & whirl finishers and blids on blast and leap finishers.

Secondly we got that trait adding short protection when a well is casted.

And signet of vampirism is our “tag’em and drain’em” skill. Also there’s that blood magic trait that heals allies when using life transfer in death shroud.

Not saying they make necro a boon machine, but he’s not totally naked in terms of party support.

These support options aren’t good enough to have an important place in PvE. Defensive support in PvE isn’t about healing and recovery, its about active mitigation through sources such as aegis and projectile deflection/reflection, as well as individuals using dodges appropriately to not take damage in the first place.

Transfusion is also a bad trait for PvE, even though it works on pvp MM builds and more support oriented WvW builds. Going into blood magic (and death magic) at all is bad for a necro’s DPS output in PvE, and the support gained by transfusion or ritual of protection is certainly not enough to justify giving up any of our must have traits from the current meta necro builds (6/6/0/0/2 for good groups 6/2/0/0/6 for bad groups). A few seconds of protection and an AoE heal are basically useless in PvE, that you are basically gimping yourself by running any of those traits.

In PvE being able to kill a boss as fast as possible, or to nullify its attacks so you can kill it as fast is possible is what is important. Any changes for the future must provide a way that the necromancer can allow his entire party to kill a boss faster, and whirling dark fields and AoE heals don’t accomplish that. Signet of Vampirism is also too weak to justify actually using. If a blood magic or death magic trait provided the type of offesive support that we actually need to truly be viable in PvE, then it could be worth it to go into those traitlines.

You did however miss out one of Necro’s only party support options, which is blowing up bone minions to blast fire/smoke fields before an engagement starts.

He did not say anything about “viability”…

Signet of Vampirism is actually less than helpful. Assuming you manage to proc all 25 stacks (and unless you have a pulsing damage skill active before you cast, you will have at leas 1 stack go unclaimed), you would still be better served by firing off a single Life Blast with that same cast time. If you want group healing, run Well of Blood, not the worthless signet.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Signet of Vampirism is actually less than helpful. Assuming you manage to proc all 25 stacks (and unless you have a pulsing damage skill active before you cast, you will have at leas 1 stack go unclaimed), you would still be better served by firing off a single Life Blast with that same cast time. If you want group healing, run Well of Blood, not the worthless signet.

Just wanted to point out that even though the usefulness of SoV is debatable, it actually adds more party-wide damage contribution than this. On my build for instance if all stacks of SoV are proc’d it does 9,025 damage every 28 seconds. The healing is 14,200 split between the party. At least 5 players are needed to proc all 25 stacks of course.

I do think the concept of SoV is on the right track, as some form of shared siphoning would be a unique contribution necros could bring. SoV on it’s own is admittedly extremely lackluster atm though.

Necros have support but almost all of it is trivial in most situations (condition debuffs/boon corruption and healing), or is completely outshined by guardians playing normal zerker specs (condition clearing and protection).

Until necros get more meaningful and unique support or cleaving, it will be the worst class. But honestly I think the cleave is the bigger obstacle since PVE is all about top damage.

yes, yes, and yes. did i mention? yes. yes i did.