[PvE] Necromancer - Can we get a rebalance?
Is a rebalance planned at all for the PvE Necro?
Are there any plans of making condition builds desirable in PvE? / nerfing the direct dmg focus?
If so, what are there estimated timeframes?
Nope, nope and nope.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
I think I should remove this quote given the recent developement.
I think I should remove this quote given the recent developement.
I pretty much disagree with most of the OPs points.
I have had all 8 professions to 80 for some time. My experience tells me when ever someone claims a profession only has one build, that they do not have enough knowledge on the profession to have an honest discussion.
I have 4 distinct builds that I find to be very effective.
Agreed.
I think these are very valid and real points. Too many things in PvE are not affected by conditions enough.
The issue isn’t that you can’t run multiple Necro builds in PvE, or that X is bad. Minions can be run in PvE (although they scale events so…), power can be run, condi can be run. In fact, power necro has the highest DPS of any build I know of.
The issue is that Necros bring AWFUL group utility, and don’t have anything to make up for it.
The issue isn’t that you can’t run multiple Necro builds in PvE, or that X is bad. Minions can be run in PvE (although they scale events so…), power can be run, condi can be run. In fact, power necro has the highest DPS of any build I know of.
The issue is that Necros bring AWFUL group utility, and don’t have anything to make up for it.
Why?
Necros bring lots of condition control — draw conditions from allies — resend to enemies.
Lots of AoE Condition Spread — chill, fear, cripple, immobilize.
Boon stripping, vulnerability. Also regen for allies in AOE form.
I think necros bring utility to teams in an unorthodox way — through control. You know, AoE conditions brings a LOT of team utility-- for example when:
- The boss enemy or whomever takes 5% extra damage from all sources due to vulnerability stacks.
- A boss or whatever who relies on intense AoE conditions such as bleed or burning is suddenly not only rendered useless, but also fed his own conditions.
- Melee bosses are rendered useless through cripple, immobilize, and chill.
- All bosses rendered useless through fear chaining.
-Bosses who rely on boon stacking such as regeneration, protection, aegis are all of a sudden standing naked and neutered.
- Necros also provide many combo fields and AoE support through wells.
These all provide pretty good team support!!! I THINK YOU ARE WRONG!! Necros are pretty kitten kitten
I would go as far as to assert that necros might be among the best team support through versatility and just utter shut down!
(edited by Domzz.1260)
We’re talking PvE, where conditions are pathetic and barely existent, bosses reapply whatever boons they have on sub 10s CDs, conditions deal much lower damage than direct damage and bosses have reduced durations on them (plus chill doesn’t affect many boss attacks).
We do not bring a single meaningful thing that someone else can’t do at least equally as well, while also providing a unique buff that we can’t.
The simple fact that you mention bosses that rely on conditions (which don’t exist), and bosses who can get fear chained (also don’t exist) really hurts your point.
The issue isn’t that you can’t run multiple Necro builds in PvE, or that X is bad. Minions can be run in PvE (although they scale events so…), power can be run, condi can be run. In fact, power necro has the highest DPS of any build I know of.
The issue is that Necros bring AWFUL group utility, and don’t have anything to make up for it.
Why?
Necros bring lots of condition control — draw conditions from allies — resend to enemies.
Lots of AoE Condition Spread — chill, fear, cripple, immobilize.
Boon stripping, vulnerability. Also regen for allies in AOE form.
I think necros bring utility to teams in an unorthodox way — through control. You know, AoE conditions brings a LOT of team utility-- for example when:
- The boss enemy or whomever takes 5% extra damage from all sources due to vulnerability stacks.
- A boss or whatever who relies on intense AoE conditions such as bleed or burning is suddenly not only rendered useless, but also fed his own conditions.
- Melee bosses are rendered useless through cripple, immobilize, and chill.
- All bosses rendered useless through fear chaining.
-Bosses who rely on boon stacking such as regeneration, protection, aegis are all of a sudden standing naked and neutered.These all provide pretty good team support!!! I THINK YOU ARE WRONG!! Necros are pretty kitten kitten
The problem is…none of that works in PvE.
Fear chaining a boss is impossible, due to Defiant or unstrippable perma-stability. At best, you get one Fear on them, and Necro fears are short.
Boon stripping doesn’t work in PvE. On the rare occasions that enemies actually use boons, they will all be put right back on within three seconds of being removed (and I am not exaggerating, sadly).
Condition control doesn’t really work either. Frequently, if a boss spams a condition, he’s immune to the same condition. Destroyers/Effigies are a prime example, spamming Burning, but being immune to it. Alternatively, there are the stationary bosses that spam snares. There are also usually easy ways to avoid the conditions altogether, so the ability to remove them from allies only means anything if your allies are inexperienced. Finally, the conditions are low frequency and/or low stacks, so they aren’t even anything to care about to begin with.
Defiant doesn’t just hurt control builds, it castrates them and then beats them in the face with the removed body parts. Chill has no noticeable effect on NPC skill frequencies and most of the bosses that are even worth kiting teleport anyway. Plus, the “stack and smack” meta in PvE means snares are worthless.
Necros are in a very good spot right now for PvE. The issue is that PvE is in a terrible spot for Necros. The mechanics at work in PvE mean that everything a necro is actually good at and desirable for is worthless.
Ah you make good points — I set out that argument to kitten the validity of my claims you two make good points — I haven’t been in the game for many months.
@Drarnor — did you mean Necros are good spot for PvP? Or did you mean what I described is the ideal scenario but that the PvE environment shuts down that ideal environment?
I do still think Necros manage to provide some utility.
I also heard that Necros can output some of the most DPS through power builds.
Ah you make good points — I set out that argument to kitten the validity of my claims you two make good points — I haven’t been in the game for many months.
@Drarnor — did you mean Necros are good spot for PvP? Or did you mean what I described is the ideal scenario but that the PvE environment shuts down that ideal environment?
I do still think Necros manage to provide some utility.
I also heard that Necros can output some of the most DPS through power builds.
I meant necros do very good things for PvE as well, the issue is that PvE is designed in such a way as to make that useless. They would be great, if it weren’t for current enemy design.
Ah you make good points — I set out that argument to kitten the validity of my claims you two make good points — I haven’t been in the game for many months.
@Drarnor — did you mean Necros are good spot for PvP? Or did you mean what I described is the ideal scenario but that the PvE environment shuts down that ideal environment?
I do still think Necros manage to provide some utility.
I also heard that Necros can output some of the most DPS through power builds.
The DPS output is not the problem. But the only DPS that works somehow like a cleave is Life Blast which pierces and is therefore somehow working in a PVE world where stacking enemies is the best way. Sadly, while in DS, which is necessary for this strategy to work at all, we have no group utility at all.We need all DS traits for damage and can not use utility skills while in that form. On top of that, we are even immune to heal and regeneration of our allies. While not being in DS (the phase we need to get Lifeforce back) we are not able to cleave with any weapon. Also, as we need all traits for DS, we are not really that strong while outside of it and our utility skills that could make up for it like wells, are hindering might stacking and have a long cd.
To be as viable as other classes in PVE we have to use all our traits, while other classes already bring their cleave etc. as standard and can trait on top of that. There is the flaw in the design.
This is especially existing in PvE where you can just group the enemies and burn them down with cleave weapons and use firefields and blast finishers. Necros have no blast finisher, no good fields for PvE nor a cleave. What we do bring is boon and condition utility, which is bad in PvE due to bad design.
In PvP the Necro is in a better spot, but as the class has some very strong aspects, other stuff was nerfed which lead to the current state where the class feals broken in many ways.
When you look at the Necromancer you see lots of very nice stuff, really nice, but combining them to a build feels weird and not like you are going for a build/class concept. The Necromancer feels like the sum of its parts is weaker than the parts in itself. Hope you understand what I try to say.
I will quote myself from a question about Necromancers in the dungeon world.
does this apply to the general PvE? … ish
rebalance might be to harsh a word to go for. what i think is we just need some more utility that will allow for Necromancers to fill a spot that they simply cannot fill right now.
I love my Necromancer.
a lot.
It was the first one to get world completion. ascended armour and weapons. and a shiney fractal capacitor.
i love my necromancer so much that i safely tuck it away away from the dungeons and the majority of the pugging that i do.
the Necromancer is a VERY… VERY selfish class.
It has some great DPS against a SINGLE target. it has some great sustain. its got lots of fun things to do and play with.
but it is NOT a very good team player. (at least in Dungeons) unless you build the team around the necromancer. the tools that a necromancer has such as blinds, vuln stacking etc are there yes. but in the process of creating those situations you are damaging your team mates ability to do their job. We can keep up an almost permanent blind and vuln stack, but at the cost of covering up fire fields, condition cleansing fields. etc. so yes. you can blind and vuln the living hell out of everything. but at the cost of your teams might and condition cleansing etc.….
see… selfish
I STILL love my necromancer. But as far as dungeon running goes. if we are doing a casual and or Yolo bring whatever run or low level fractal. what not. Sure i will bring it along. But when it comes down to “work” it stays at home, and farming the world.
regardless of this. a lot of the Necromancer players KNOW this. and we are VERY saddened by it. so till the Game adds something to the Necromancers utility kit that is team oriented that is unique or better than the other classes. you will most likely not see a necromancer in “high end” PvE and Dungeon running.
Ah you make good points — I set out that argument to kitten the validity of my claims you two make good points — I haven’t been in the game for many months.
@Drarnor — did you mean Necros are good spot for PvP? Or did you mean what I described is the ideal scenario but that the PvE environment shuts down that ideal environment?
I do still think Necros manage to provide some utility.
I also heard that Necros can output some of the most DPS through power builds.
I meant necros do very good things for PvE as well, the issue is that PvE is designed in such a way as to make that useless. They would be great, if it weren’t for current enemy design.
Not strictly true. Yes necro has good access to control conditions and if pve was better designed then this might be more desirable. But then you have to look at what control conditions other classes can bring and you realise the only advantage necro has is chill. But movement snares such as imob and cripple can be done permanently by other classes anyway and thats the most useful thing about chill seeing as many boss attacks arent effected much or at all by chills cooldown increase. With a different pve game necro could maybe be in a better spot but it would still need some more meaningful and unique utility to bring it up to par with the other classes.
TL;DR
PvE redesign wont happen and even if it did necro would still need some specialised utility or group buffing to put it on par with the other classes in pve.
I do the full usual dungeon tour every day and swap around between all 8 of my level 80 characters for variety while doing so. Every one of then feels exceptionally useful…except the necro. Similar damage to other classes with bad cleave options and next to no useful utility. What little you have is greatly outshined by other professions. It’s a real shame because it’s my favorite class alongside ranger (who also has issues with pets being of dubious value in many situations, and the sword #1 attack)
Ah you make good points — I set out that argument to kitten the validity of my claims you two make good points — I haven’t been in the game for many months.
@Drarnor — did you mean Necros are good spot for PvP? Or did you mean what I described is the ideal scenario but that the PvE environment shuts down that ideal environment?
I do still think Necros manage to provide some utility.
I also heard that Necros can output some of the most DPS through power builds.
I meant necros do very good things for PvE as well, the issue is that PvE is designed in such a way as to make that useless. They would be great, if it weren’t for current enemy design.
Not strictly true. Yes necro has good access to control conditions and if pve was better designed then this might be more desirable. But then you have to look at what control conditions other classes can bring and you realise the only advantage necro has is chill. But movement snares such as imob and cripple can be done permanently by other classes anyway and thats the most useful thing about chill seeing as many boss attacks arent effected much or at all by chills cooldown increase. With a different pve game necro could maybe be in a better spot but it would still need some more meaningful and unique utility to bring it up to par with the other classes.
TL;DR
PvE redesign wont happen and even if it did necro would still need some specialised utility or group buffing to put it on par with the other classes in pve.
There is more that necros bring than just snares. Enemies using lots of conditions would make necros far more attractive. Control builds actually working would make necros more attractive. Enemies that used boons but did not spam them would make necros more attractive.
What necros already have can be made extremely desirable, but that requires redesigned enemies (which people have been clamoring for for a while).
Necros arent the kings of control, boon removal or condition cleansing. Mesmers can do all that on lower cooldowns than necro and guardians have endless condi cleanse with light fields. Like i said, necros need more than just a pve rebalance to bring them on par. And a full pve rebalance wont happen so the only solution is to ask for better utility and cleave on new weapons and utility skills in the future.
And control is already heavily implemented in high end pve. The average player just doesnt understand this and spams cc skills randomly and doesnt remove defiant stacks ready for an interrupt.
I love my Necromancer.
a lot.
It was the first one to get world completion. ascended armour and weapons. and a shiney fractal capacitor.
i love my necromancer so much that i safely tuck it away away from the dungeons and the majority of the pugging that i do.
the Necromancer is a VERY… VERY selfish class.
It has some great DPS against a SINGLE target. it has some great sustain. its got lots of fun things to do and play with.
but it is NOT a very good team player. (at least in Dungeons)
This is true. If they gave the necro just one weapon that cleaves, (like axe) even if only when traited, it would be quite an improvement. Imagine if they removed cleave from sword for the mesmer. This would be a pretty big hit to their effectiveness, right? And mesmers are seen as being high utility. Adding cleave to dagger and axe when traited would be really helpful for necromancers. Not sure if it would make them desired, but it would make them seem less crippled in team PvE play. Of course, this has been requested for a long time, so it obviously will never happen.
For PvE, zerk prespective
Poor sustained damage on multiple foes
-Lifeblast is the only meaningful ‘cleave’ necros have. Other than that, staff marks (ha?) and wells, all of which are hindered by cooldowns
Decent sustained damage against single foe
-Don’t get me wrong, dagger damage is nice. Except it’s just comparable to most other classes damage, and is lower than either ele’s or thieves
Decent condition control
-Yes, necros can get rid of conditions, except as mentioned guards can do it better. Heck, traited WH warrior can probably do it better.
Decent (but meaningless) enemy boon control
-As mentioned earlier, rate of boon application on most NPCs far outpaces necro’s ability to strip them. And still, if boon stripping is a must (which it really isn’t anywhere in the current PvE) you can always bring a mesmer
Poor sustain
-Yes, the class that is supposed to be the high in sustain, is actually severely lacking in PvE due to lack of access to vigor / endurance regeneration. The way PvE is designed makes dodging extremly more potent than passive defenses such as high health pool (and extra hp bar of lifeforce)
Bottom line is that if you want damage, you won’t bring necro. If you want support, you won’t bring necro. If you want control, you won’t bring necro. Even if you want a mix of the above, you won’t bring necro. You bring necro if you enjoy the class and willing to put up with it’s shortcomings, of if necro player is simply better than alternatives from other classes.
I don’t think making axe cleave would help all that much because axe is complete garbage. It would basically become the exact same thing as ranger mainhand axe, which is a bad weapon that nobody uses for anything other than tagging.
A cleaving melee weapon for necromancers seems unlikely after all this time. But I’ve never seen an official response about it. I’ve always wondered what the official reasoning behind this decision was.
A cleaving melee weapon for necromancers seems unlikely after all this time. But I’ve never seen an official response about it. I’ve always wondered what the official reasoning behind this decision was.
Probably something to do with balancing lifesteal. But thats not a good enough reason to force 1 out of 8 classes to be the only one without a melee cleave option. Plus lifesteal is still so bad that cleave isnt really going to unbalance it. And you pretty much never cleave consistantly in pvp where it would cause the imbalance.
Put Vampiric/Vampiric precision on a 1s CD (buff them appropriately), cleaving problem solved.
Problem with that is that it removes the oppotunity play of saving burst and aoe to burst heal with life steal. But yeah id rather have lifesteal get retricted than have no cleave ever.
As it is right now siphons are worthless basically no matter what. Leave the Wells trait for the burst AoE siphoning, let Vampiric/Precision become decent more than once a week.
Back on the subject of cleaving – I honestly kind of like the way it is. Necro is a single target class that can burst a whole bunch of AoE on substantial cooldowns, but can’t sustain it for more than a very small handful of seconds. Every profession needs downsides, and I think that’s one that gives the class some unique flavor.
That being said, it is a very significant downside. But there’s nothing to compensate for it at all. Necro single target is very average and they bring no meaningful group utility. Necros are fairly sturdy, but only in situations where dodging/blocking/evading/etc aren’t crucial because they’re quite bad at that sort of thing. There is no upside.
And hell, even if dagger could cleave, that would just put necros on the same level as everyone else in terms of “doing damage to enemies” while still lacking any of the utility that makes literally every single other profession appealing. It would still be the worst pick for PvE.