[MYTH] The Mythical Dragons -PvX http://mythdragons.enjin.com
(edited by TPMN.1483)
[PvE] Revising the "DPS Meta"
Well… that and celestial sounds kind of neat just as a item prefix don’t you think?
Full berserker teams can do TA Aether just fine, they just don’t find it worth the effort of sitting through forced dialogue sequences and putting up with moronic puzzle mechanics which ANet keep throwing in to all of their new content.
You saying “hey, things change” is exactly the kind of crap fractal runners got when they got their rank reset. The first time was pushing it, but a meta nerf is the last straw. People I know are already saying if it ends up being serious they’re just going to quit, we can only take so much before we just stop playing.
Sanctum of Rall (NA) | [LOD]
Morrï Mahariel | Serah Mahariel | Morrï
A bunch of amateur solos from yours truly
Morrï Mahariel | Serah Mahariel | Morrï
A bunch of amateur solos from yours truly
We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.
Jon
Playing since launch and never went full reta*** uh… Zerker. Though finally, after all this time, finally…. broke down and going for Ascended Zerker gear. NOW you are going to change it up???? Oy vie….
#refund
GG
;)
[AwM] of Jade Quarry.
The current meta for high level zones is 3wars+guardian+other (FoTM) or 4wars+1other(many dungeons). Mostly all are running zerker.
Early 2013 called, they want their meta back.
3 war 1 guard 1 mesmer hasn’t been the optimal setup for a long time. Multiple guards, rangers, engies, multiple eles and even thieves can all fight for a good spot in those groups. I actually find fotm49 easier with just 1 warrior.
We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.
Jon
Pls Jon make us a favor, stop ruining this game.
We dont need to farm another ascendent set because after 1,5 year you realized that pve is zerk based.
There’s no difference between a zerk meta or a cond meta in a game where you require months to farm a full set.
We need that anet allows players to switch easily gear, build and class in way to be always perfomant and we need anet to introduce NEW CONTENT and these NEW CONTENT should be made in way to push people on switching gear\build on demand (and not by default like you’re telling)
In other words we need you to play gw1 for a while and then just copy cantha here.
Sometime is better to copy than having idea.
Regards
This guy right here. He’s right.
No he is not! I have no desire to farm even more gear or to carry it around with me. The only content that should require different gear is when switching from pve to some form of pvp.
Some really good posts here, i especially like the post a little above mine, which explains how it’s the groups that’s the problem and I agree, the whole “Guardian + 3 Wars + 1 extra” is the problem here, if they can tackle the Zerker problem by making Zerker warriors flop over after getting 1 hit, Just Like Everyone Else you just fixed the problem.
snip
ANET just decided to delete your gear and told you to get over it and farm a new/different gear set?
I must have missed that dev post.
Seems like some pretty good ideas here. I’d also like to add that increasing the viability of healing and condition damage in PvE is definitely something that should be worked on as well. For healing, either make healing power something worthwhile by having it scale better with healing abilities or decrease the cooldown of healing utilities to make trickle heals more valuable in a party as an alternate form of damage mitigation. Having to put 1000 healing power in your build just to make a 5k heal into a 6k heal when there’s 30 seconds of downtime just isn’t worthwhile at all.
Conditions might be a little more difficult to incorporate into PvE meta, but there have been plenty of suggestions on how to do it thrown out there, and I’m sure there’s a way to make it work.
No thanks on the idea of improving the effectiveness of healing power. I do not want to play a game where the trinity rears its ugly head again. I do not want groups to start expecting certain classes to heal them. I do not want there to be a reserved spot for a “healer” in groups. It is bad enough that groups already expect certain classes to switch utilities so they can prioritize their own desired utilities. I would much prefer an increase in baseline healing for all classes…something similar to how magic find was moved off of gear and onto an earned account wide bonus.
(edited by ODB.6891)
We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.
Jon
If you want to go through with this, please do not make Berserker’s setups weaker but make the other setups stronger/more useful. Nerfing the zerker gear will only end in dumbed down and more boring gameplay. Buffing everything else will likely have similar effects but there might be ways to avoid them more so than when nerfing zerker.
That won’t solve the problem because zerker elitists will still be QQing about how you’re not in zerker.
But people not able to see through the fact other builds, after a change of the meta , like a general buff to condition damage for example, could be stronger then berzerk will not be “elitist” anymore.
It wouldn’t make their armors useless, or their tactics. It would just make the huge difference between DPS and DOT smaller or even turn the meta from pure DPS to DOT or a usefull combination.
On the other hand moving the meta from offensive to defensive will slow everything down to snail speed and kill the game unless all health would be reduced further. This would start an unwanted nerf cycle. and this is what would happen with the plain reduction of zerk or assassin armor.
The biggest problem with zerk is probably the warriors & the idiot amount of power they can reach without much effort.
Having 3800 power with all buffs is not impossible. (2800 base ( with runes, signet of power, banner of strength, foods taken into account), 250 sigil of bloodlust , 875 power from might, stacking of might using the might from greatsword-trait, 100+ critical dmg and 100% fury uptime (+20% critical chance), and a banner of dicipline adding 6% crit chance and +15% crit chance more. With a banner specced second warrior adding a further 150 power with empower you’ll get to amounts of damage which are rediculous. In the end the scaling of at least warrior skills could be adjusted to make them scale less with power and improving the base, hereby nerfing the full zerk warrior thing, but some classes are doing nicely with their zerk or assassin builds providing strong but not overpowered damage.
But DPS > DOT > Defensive in any circumstance in the present meta. so speccing for power precision and crit dmg will stay unless conditions are changed radically…
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
(edited by PaxTheGreatOne.9472)
snip
ANET just decided to delete your gear and told you to get over it and farm a new/different gear set?
I must have missed that dev post.
Or you could have selectively chosen to re-interpret the whole situation…
Whatever ANET means by dealing with the berserker meta, could obviously affect the stats on berserker gear…which effectively makes it not the same gear set that we worked for. This could effectively be the same as deleting it. It could also end up meaning they are going to punish us with more incoming/unavoidable damage with or without some type of compensation mechanic. Who knows really at this point…but the message conveyed by your post is that you think its okay for them to force zerkers to essentially start from scratch on our gear because you think we are all bots farming gold.
All those players who grinded there kitten off for ascended with berserker stats are going to be so happy now…
All that wasted gold, laurels, time etc…
Anet snap there fingers and ‘poof’ your back to where you started…
We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.
Jon
Personally I think I see some glimpses of hope in some of the PvE content that came (a bit) later than the original dungeons. Bosses such as Mai Trin and many guild bounty targets, in my opinion, are good directions, such that going all out on damage does not contribute that much to the fight, while support is needed but does not need to be entirely spec’ed trinity-style.
So I think it has more to do with content design rather than pure mechanics.
Asking the devs to completely redesign existing problematic PvE content might be a tall order, but hey, you have completely revamped whole dungeon paths before.
Nah, I just think you’re overreacting a bit. They don’t have to make berserkers/assassins etc useless to make other stat variations a bit better than they are now in PVE.
This isn’t a your side and my side argument, as already stated most of my characters are already geared in zerks.
But TBH I don’t see much happening in this area anyway, and almost certainly not in the near future.
I would be embarrassed to admit I was in favor of the potential changes, simply because it would reveal to everyone that I was bad at the game and don’t know how to dodge. I guess some people have very little shame.
Also, no matter what happens, there will still be a best way to clear dungeons. And guess what: scrubs won’t be any better at that way either. What does that mean? It means you will still get kicked from group, and your crap builds will still not be looked for on the LFG. I feel like a lot of bad players feel like whatever this change will be is going to usher in a golden age of “anything goes” and every player in the game will be on exactly equal footing. Sorry to tell you: no matter what happens bad will still be bad. There will be a meta. It might be Rabid, it might be Rampager, it might be Zerker still. And regardless, there is no reason to believe if you hate the meta now you’ll like the next one at all.
We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.
Jon
People who play “Berserker/DPS” do it because they are experienced, and therefor can trade away the extra survivability from defensive gear for extra dps and still survive. If you take away this oportunity from the players to capitalize on their experience, this game will only be for beginners and casuals. Noone will stick around to master the game if it forces you to be mediocre.
This is my biggest issue with the game right now, even more than the fact that ascended gear is just a huge grind. They need to make it so that there is too much consistent damage in dungeons for an entire team to be made of glass cannons. You should either need to have everyone with balanced stats/builds, or bring tanky/support/healing characters to pick up the slack.
Berzerker just needs to be capped at 60% bonus crit damage just like spvp.
The damage scaling is out of whack compared to all the other gear, and quite honestly this game’s PvE is pretty horrible when bosses last less than 2 minutes against a full berzerker group.
The worst part is they will likely blanket nerf berzerker without realizing the huge practical DPS disparities between classes. It’s been forever ever since guardians and warriors have ruled the PvE game, and the only viable DPS ele weapon are conjures instead of their kitten ed mainhands because many classes’ autoattacks are so bad compared to warrior/guard/LH ele.
The problem with the other gear types is not really related to berserker gear…it is that the stats on the other gear types are ineffective in encounter design. Healing power cannot compensate for incoming damage…or it will be the gateway to introducing the trinity. Toughness is in the exact same situation….if aggro mechanics target high toughness…which is the only way having one or more pvt users in a party would benefit the party. No tank/healer/dps model please.
I would be embarrassed to admit I was in favor of the potential changes, simply because it would reveal to everyone that I was bad at the game and don’t know how to dodge. I guess some people have very little shame.
Also, no matter what happens, there will still be a best way to clear dungeons. And guess what: scrubs won’t be any better at that way either. What does that mean? It means you will still get kicked from group, and your crap builds will still not be looked for on the LFG. I feel like a lot of bad players feel like whatever this change will be is going to usher in a golden age of “anything goes” and every player in the game will be on exactly equal footing. Sorry to tell you: no matter what happens bad will still be bad. There will be a meta. It might be Rabid, it might be Rampager, it might be Zerker still. And regardless, there is no reason to believe if you hate the meta now you’ll like the next one at all.
Truth!
I would be embarrassed to admit I was in favor of the potential changes, simply because it would reveal to everyone that I was bad at the game and don’t know how to dodge. I guess some people have very little shame.[…]
QFT.
Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.
Jon
If you want to go through with this, please do not make Berserker’s setups weaker but make the other setups stronger/more useful. Nerfing the zerker gear will only end in dumbed down and more boring gameplay. Buffing everything else will likely have similar effects but there might be ways to avoid them more so than when nerfing zerker.
That won’t solve the problem because zerker elitists will still be QQing about how you’re not in zerker.
But people not able to see through the fact other builds, after a change of the meta , like a general buff to condition damage for example, could be stronger then berzerk will not be “elitist” anymore.
It wouldn’t make their armors useless, or their tactics. It would just make the huge difference between DPS and DOT smaller or even turn the meta from pure DPS to DOT or a usefull combination.
On the other hand moving the meta from offensive to defensive will slow everything down to snail speed and kill the game unless all health would be reduced further. This would start an unwanted nerf cycle. and this is what would happen with the plain reduction of zerk or assassin armor.
The biggest problem with zerk is probably the warriors & the idiot amount of power they can reach without much effort.
Having 3800 power with all buffs is not impossible. (2800 base ( with runes, signet of power, banner of strength, foods taken into account), 250 sigil of bloodlust , 875 power from might, stacking of might using the might from greatsword-trait, 100+ critical dmg and 100% fury uptime (+20% critical chance), and a banner of dicipline adding 6% crit chance and +15% crit chance more. With a banner specced second warrior adding a further 150 power with empower you’ll get to amounts of damage which are rediculous. In the end the scaling of at least warrior skills could be adjusted to make them scale less with power and improving the base, hereby nerfing the full zerk warrior thing, but some classes are doing nicely with their zerk or assassin builds providing strong but not overpowered damage.But DPS > DOT > Defensive in any circumstance in the present meta. so speccing for power precision and crit dmg will stay unless conditions are changed radically…
XD
fun fact, warrior is only average dps.
so this is how much people who write “nerf berserker” know about the game.
good night arenanet.
[qT] Quantify
I WILL quit this game if Anet messes this up. I have 2 sets of zerker ascended armor made already.
Most of my friends already quit because they were tired of the boring “balls deep DPS” Zerker kitten. The change is probably too late to bring all of them back, but some of them might come back if the change is solid.
I don’t really understand how it’s boring to do DPS. Is doing less DPS and being tankier going to somehow make the game more fun? Are fights taking longer going to be more fun?
Man… If fights were any longer than they already are I’ll quit PVE altogether and just log on to TP flip, do dailies, then log off and go play something else. As I have said before, running a dungeon/fractal for the 10000th time I want to do it as fast and as efficiently as possible.
RNG is a bell curve. Better hope you’re on the right side.
You nerf zerker and you don’t suddenly make the likes of clerics an amazing dungeon set up, instead you simply promote the next highest damage set up to “alpha” for those able to actually move out of the way of getting hit.
The combat system is set up in such a way as to promote dodging attacks and dealing as much damage as possible. Unless you are going to overhaul/change the combat mechanics and the way combat scenarios work (reduce telegraphed spike attacks, introduce condi weak mobs et al), then you are simply going to make things worse by nerfing zerk.
The only people this will appease is the people who get bent out of shape because those able to wear zerk and use it correctly can clear content faster than they can whilst they are using a more crutch set up.
Again, the only way of effectively reducing the dps meta is to overhaul the combat system and changing the way encounters work, not simply by nerfing zerk.
Furthermore, even when that is done, people will still min/max, there will still always be an optimal set up and group composition, there will always be the so called “elite” (i.e. good players) who run speed groups and look for specific group compositions. That will always be the case, are those people who are currently whining about zerk at the moment going to start whining about the next “pro set up” in the future? Yes, yes they will, and so it goes on.
I would be embarrassed to admit I was in favor of the potential changes, simply because it would reveal to everyone that I was bad at the game and don’t know how to dodge. I guess some people have very little shame.
Also, no matter what happens, there will still be a best way to clear dungeons. And guess what: scrubs won’t be any better at that way either. What does that mean? It means you will still get kicked from group, and your crap builds will still not be looked for on the LFG. I feel like a lot of bad players feel like whatever this change will be is going to usher in a golden age of “anything goes” and every player in the game will be on exactly equal footing. Sorry to tell you: no matter what happens bad will still be bad. There will be a meta. It might be Rabid, it might be Rampager, it might be Zerker still. And regardless, there is no reason to believe if you hate the meta now you’ll like the next one at all.
This is all mostly a balance issue. If condition damage would function unrestricted and do about the same damage as a normally specced ppcrit (armor/runes) / ppt (trinkets) mix or v.v. , it would be viable…
It would open up builds for rampager/carrion (hybrids), rabids, dires, and all other condition related gear and it wouldn’t destroy the original meta. zerks could still do a lot of dmg, but might also buffs condition dmg, fury improves critical chance and therefore chances of placing conditions, banner of strength also buffs condition dmg…
banner of dicipline would add to crit chance… well It could work…
And in the end 1 build is always king, as there will always be 1 build which outperformes all other classes and builds….
Regardless of meta. But I would welcome a change from the plain we need 5 lvl 80 zerks, 1 mesmer , 1 guardian and 3 warriors….
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
(edited by PaxTheGreatOne.9472)
I came back to the game like 2 weeks ago after taking a 4 month break, the game seems fresh and fun again, I logged on and caught up on what’s happen in Guild wars spoke to some people I use to play with and they told me about the new ascended stuff so I knew I would need to now grind this for high end fractals but also the % of stat increase.
I play MMOs purely for the PvE so I was instantly looking at the current Ranger meta and what builds are viable and learning it, the gear meta when I left was Zerker and still was so I started working on a full ascended set, have 5/6 but will be 6/6 by reset, I have invested gold, time and just generally a huge amount of effort to get the set.. I feel like if Anet just do what some MMOs do and go hey nerf that stat so it becomes so underwhelming that every1 switched to Carrion like if they removed condi cap…
Now Im not saying the only thing they can do is nerf it, looking at the situation and how expensive and time consuming it is with Laurels to get the recipes and just yeah blah blah I feel the ship has sailed they cant “Nerf” Zerker they need to buff other things to make them viable, if they nerf Zerker a massive storm of complaints will come there way, so I feel they need to make condi cap higher so its just more viable.
They could now thinking of it basically be like we have updated the meta every1’s ascended gear has been Reset to Blank stats and you can pick what you want, this would be hard to justify but its possible :/
I do agree PvE can be really boring because its just Zerker this Zerker that…. but if they nerf it and make Carrion best it will be just Carrion this Carrion that… so I think they just have to make other stuff more inviting and viable to try.
I feel like some of the problem comes from classes more than the gear meta anyway, when I pug like 80-90% of it is like looking for mes.warrior,guardian…. zerker only. I know other classes are viable but many cant be bothered to even give them a look in as there are classes who do Zerker better than others… that is what needs to be addressed.. As I said I am a ranger I wish we were a little more viable I think were fine if played correctly but I wish Pets were a tad better and we got a slight buff but I cant complain.
Overall I think the game needs a re balance in classes, after that then look at the gear meta, its like take WoW for example certain classes go for X secondary stat over others due to talents. its a mix but you will always have one that is far better than another, they nerf zerker something else will take its place and we start the cycle again…
I honestly think the ship has sailed when it comes to a nerf to zerker they need to just buff other builds and hope they become viable and played.
Anet already improved condition damage in pvp. Look where it got them. Vast amount of serious pvp-ers leaving the game because it was unbearable to play. Let’s see how it ends in pve where for now condition damage and passive play are worse.
I would be embarrassed to admit I was in favor of the potential changes, simply because it would reveal to everyone that I was bad at the game and don’t know how to dodge. I guess some people have very little shame.
Also, no matter what happens, there will still be a best way to clear dungeons. And guess what: scrubs won’t be any better at that way either. What does that mean? It means you will still get kicked from group, and your crap builds will still not be looked for on the LFG. I feel like a lot of bad players feel like whatever this change will be is going to usher in a golden age of “anything goes” and every player in the game will be on exactly equal footing. Sorry to tell you: no matter what happens bad will still be bad. There will be a meta. It might be Rabid, it might be Rampager, it might be Zerker still. And regardless, there is no reason to believe if you hate the meta now you’ll like the next one at all.
This is all mostly a balance issue. If condition damage would function unrestricted and do about the same damage as a normally specced ppcrit (armor/runes) / ppt (trinkets) mix or v.v. , it would be viable…
It would open up builds for rampager/carrion (hybrids), rabids, dires, and all other condition related gear and it wouldn’t destroy the original meta. zerks could still do a lot of dmg, but might also buffs condition dmg, fury improves critical chance and therefore chances of placing conditions, banner of strength also buffs condition dmg…
banner of dicipline would add to crit chance… well It could work…
If it’s simply rebalanced such that condition damage does more, then rampager would become the next meta, and nothing changes in at all if you call it “dps meta”.
In my opinion, this problem cannot be fixed in a mechanical way because we want to reward dodges and people who learn encounters. Do we want a game where it’s unnecessary to even learn what the boss attacks are and just facetank? Or do you want a game with a bunch of unavoidable attacks such that learning it is useless and you simply have to bring armor?
But in such a game that rewards expert play, once someone learns it, there is no longer any necessity to bring armor and therefore all top elites use maximum dps builds. If anet actually finds a mechanical way to fix this, I’d worship them, truly.
Instead, I believe a more viable solution can be found in encounter designs and content design. As I mentioned in an earlier reply, there are quite a number of such bosses such as Mai Trin and bounty targets already in the game where glimpses of what the solution might be could be seen.
Why would rampager be stronger then carrion? or a mix? or a mix of carrion and sin?
you might be right, but all power / condition combos have a power as minor stat…
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
It is not the stat combination that makes zerker so good. It is the game design that makes support and tank so weak.
This! And nothing else.
Without adding a soft trinity defensive or healinggear can´t be balanced. The problems here will be.
How do u want to make a “support/heal” X, a “tanky/control” Y and a “DPS” Z equal to each other without a soft trinity?
Just take 2/3 Zerk 1/3 Clerics and a few heal/support traits/skills to heal yourself and allies up? This will be completly the same “mindless” game as we have now. Only with less pew pew.
Whats with ranged combat? How do u want to balance melee and ranged combat in this game? Most bosses have only 1-3 attacks, most of them have no “attacking area”.
If u stack Melee u´ll get all attacks, if u stack ranged usually 1 less.
But Bosses will move>melees will lose dps, party dps is already lower cause “ranged dps” sucks in this game (even Staff Ele dps suxx in pure ranged partys).
Usually ranged combat is easier at most bosses, but aswesome boring. Picking up a ranged “DD” is most times bad for all melees. That´s…well rly bad.
I can´t see a way to balance classes/weapons without a trinity.
Well, let’s stop here.
There is nothing more annoying that people trying to make me say thing I did not.Every kind of play whould bring somethign to a team and this is rendered impossible as long as ONE playstile can do it all.
Now, go on preaching how good you are and how the rest are crap just because they don’t like how the game throws 80% of the build diversity out of the window.
Bye.
im sorry if i hurt your feelings by telling you what has been said before the game was released. but you might want to take a look at this:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1078544-GW2-official-Blogpost-about-the-Holy-Trinity-must-read
let me quote the most important part:
“We built this game so that they professions act as play styles, not as roles. Each profession can support, control, and do damage. "
Yes that sounds about right. But none of their design has faithfully translated into game. Damage dominates support and control by far, making them quite useless. But as you can see a holy trinity does already exist, just in a different form than the traditional mmorpgs.
I like the link you found, it shows how combat has completely failed to live up to the expectations illustrated in that chart. If it worked anything like the charts describe then combat would have much more depth to it.
Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
Windows 10
Windows 10
I’m pretty sure buffing your team with stat modifiers (banners), 875+ power (25 might), 20%+ crit chance, reflects, aegis, blinds and mob positioning is support. If you think control is useless too, then maybe you should fight the COE golem. CC works through defiant against that guy, and it’s pretty important to CC him unless you want your party to be knocked back or eating massive projectile damage.
Sanctum of Rall (NA) | [LOD]
Morrï Mahariel | Serah Mahariel | Morrï
A bunch of amateur solos from yours truly
Morrï Mahariel | Serah Mahariel | Morrï
A bunch of amateur solos from yours truly
Why would rampager be stronger then carrion? or a mix? or a mix of carrion and sin?
you might be right, but all power / condition combos have a power as minor stat…
Well the exact build that will be the meta might differ but the main point is that it will still be a dps meta. A gear stat that has all three in damage will still be better than a gear that has any of its stat in defense.
It is not the stat combination that makes zerker so good. It is the game design that makes support and tank so weak.
This! And nothing else.
Without adding a soft trinity defensive or healinggear can´t be balanced. The problems here will be.
How do u want to make a “support/heal” X, a “tanky/control” Y and a “DPS” Z equal to each other without a soft trinity?
Just take 2/3 Zerk 1/3 Clerics and a few heal/support traits/skills to heal yourself and allies up? This will be completly the same “mindless” game as we have now. Only with less pew pew.
Whats with ranged combat? How do u want to balance melee and ranged combat in this game? Most bosses have only 1-3 attacks, most of them have no “attacking area”.
If u stack Melee u´ll get all attacks, if u stack ranged usually 1 less.But Bosses will move>melees will lose dps, party dps is already lower cause “ranged dps” sucks in this game (even Staff Ele dps suxx in pure ranged partys).
Usually ranged combat is easier at most bosses, but aswesome boring. Picking up a ranged “DD” is most times bad for all melees. That´s…well rly bad.I can´t see a way to balance classes/weapons without a trinity.
You do not have build diversity in a trinity system either. A dps-er will use a maximum dps build. A tank will use a maximum survival build. A healer will use a maximum healing build. And that’s it. In my opinion trinity brings nothing to the table in term of build diversity.
Furthermore, as things are in gw2, nobody in their right mind would ever party with a tank or healer.
Well, let’s stop here.
There is nothing more annoying that people trying to make me say thing I did not.Every kind of play whould bring somethign to a team and this is rendered impossible as long as ONE playstile can do it all.
Now, go on preaching how good you are and how the rest are crap just because they don’t like how the game throws 80% of the build diversity out of the window.
Bye.
im sorry if i hurt your feelings by telling you what has been said before the game was released. but you might want to take a look at this:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1078544-GW2-official-Blogpost-about-the-Holy-Trinity-must-read
let me quote the most important part:
“We built this game so that they professions act as play styles, not as roles. Each profession can support, control, and do damage. "Yes that sounds about right. But none of their design has faithfully translated into game. Damage dominates support and control by far, making them quite useless. But as you can see a holy trinity does already exist, just in a different form than the traditional mmorpgs.
I like the link you found, it shows how combat has completely failed to live up to the expectations illustrated in that chart. If it worked anything like the charts describe then combat would have much more depth to it.
I think the key word in that pre-release quote was “AND”. I’ll repeat that …AND, not OR.
“We built this game so that they professions act as play styles, not as roles. Each profession can support, control, AND do damage. "
That means you should be doing all three of these things…not trying to pick only one of them. I think the mistake is ANET allowing PVT/clerics/celestial in pve to begin with. Those gear sets mislead players into thinking they can be a dedicated tank or healer or some stuck in between jack of all trades and actually be effective.
Well, let’s stop here.
There is nothing more annoying that people trying to make me say thing I did not.Every kind of play whould bring somethign to a team and this is rendered impossible as long as ONE playstile can do it all.
Now, go on preaching how good you are and how the rest are crap just because they don’t like how the game throws 80% of the build diversity out of the window.
Bye.
im sorry if i hurt your feelings by telling you what has been said before the game was released. but you might want to take a look at this:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1078544-GW2-official-Blogpost-about-the-Holy-Trinity-must-read
let me quote the most important part:
“We built this game so that they professions act as play styles, not as roles. Each profession can support, control, and do damage. "Yes that sounds about right. But none of their design has faithfully translated into game. Damage dominates support and control by far, making them quite useless. But as you can see a holy trinity does already exist, just in a different form than the traditional mmorpgs.
I like the link you found, it shows how combat has completely failed to live up to the expectations illustrated in that chart. If it worked anything like the charts describe then combat would have much more depth to it.
I think the key word in that pre-release quote was “AND”. I’ll repeat that …AND, not OR.
“We built this game so that they professions act as play styles, not as roles. Each profession can support, control, AND do damage. "
That means you should be doing all three of these things…not trying to pick only one of them. I think the mistake is ANET allowing PVT/clerics/celestial in pve to begin with. Those gear sets mislead players into thinking they can be a dedicated tank or healer or some stuck in between jack of all trades and actually be effective.
What they are saying in that respect is a bit ambiguous. Because from one perspective you have to look at how they said “playstyles”, meaning there is more than one way to play instead of each class just having one playstyle.
But for all I know, you could be possibly right. I do agree with what you are saying about gear, I was thinking about that and how much of the gear doesn’t match with their game design. In the interview it says there are no dedicated healers, but there is a healing set. That there are no tanks but there is a set that increases the amount of damage you soak up.
If that is true then a stat like healing power should of never existed, but a stat like boon duration should of been the primary stat instead. But regardless the gear choice makes no sense, they specifically state that you can’t tank a hit regardless of how much tanking stats you have. So why add them as a choice then? If they knew that you mitigated damage through skills.
Very poor design if you ask me and it has created a mess.
Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
Windows 10
Windows 10
We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.
Jon
as people said , the problem is not with Zerk, but with dodges and reflects.
- simple proposal.
a)
remove endurance regeneration in combat.
the only endurance regen in combat is vigor.
halve the speed of vigor. (at least 20 sec to fill half bar)
b)-
blocks and reflects depend on toughness.
maximal achievable toughness in game should provide 95% damage block.
minimal achievable toughness (naked max level char) should provide 10% damage block.
scale the block between thouse values.
reflects should reflect blocked damage % only,
i.e.
maximum toughness character will block and reflect 95% of the damage, and eat 5% of the damage.
minimum toughness character will block and reflect 10% of the damage and eat 90%.
(treat aegis as block)
I would like to point out that half of the posts in this thread are not following the guidelines posted here : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Posting-Guidelines
People misunderstand the issue with zerk dominance. First, I’d like to say there’s two opposing issues at hand :
- direct damage is better than condition damage
- offensive gear is better than defensive gear
First point : easy to fix. Just up the Armor and lower the HP/healing of all the mobs in the game so that their EHP against direct damage is the same. Another issue is the poor stacking of multiple condition players but so be it. If one Rampager condition player is equivalent to one Zerk direct damage DPS it’ll already be a big improvement.
Second point is the main issue. The problem of GW2 is that damage gear > everything. Why? Because the GW2 “trinity” is damage, control and support. And because GW2 content can be done by any random setup.
What is the gearing choices we have? It’s very linear in fact. There’s on the left “defensive”, on the right “offensive” and gearing means choosing your position on that scale and that’s it. So where is the Damage, Support and Control? There is none.
So, what is the zerker issue? People complaining that Support and Control has no use? Well you know what? Even if ANet remade all dungeons to require one heavy control and one heavy support player in the team to have any chance of success, they’d still be using zerker gear to improve their DPS.
In a nutshell, short of the the Condition/Direct damage flavor choice, gear choice in GW2 is you selecting if you want the dungeon run to be hard and short, of easy and slow (and boring) and there’s nothing ANet can do to fix that short of redoing their whole gear system.
(edited by stof.9341)
ANET:
we introduce ascendent armor !!Player:
QQ 450 gold to craft a full set it requires 30 laurel plenty of time gated mat QQ1 month later
Player:
Finally i’ve complete my zerker ascendend armor, it costed a lot, but now finally i’m done2 day later
Jon Peters:
We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berrserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.is this a troll, yeah?
I WILL quit this game if Anet messes this up. I have 2 sets of zerker ascended armor made already.
Most of my friends already quit because they were tired of the boring “balls deep DPS” Zerker kitten. The change is probably too late to bring all of them back, but some of them might come back if the change is solid.
Yeah, and if Anet will do those change even the people who’s still playing because they like dps avoding meta will leave too.
That’s a good way to make all people leaving the game.
GG
Aelfwe Dark Asura Mesmer\Thief,
FREE PYRO
FREE PYRO
(edited by aelfwe.4239)
what are the odds that add some mobs with an improved anti-zerk mechanic to the living story for 2 weeks and call it fixed…
edit:
just to add my input, the dps meta needs to be addressed.
The Ghost of Christmas Past
Wow changed stats at each extensions, people complained or not and got over it. We’ll adapt.
I think a good idea would be to remove stats from gear and just allow stats from traits and rune sets (with a second rune set for trinkets). GW1 was close to that and it allowed a lot of diversity. Sadly this would need rework on traits, runes and the whole crafting system.
Wow changed stats at each extensions, people complained or not and got over it. We’ll adapt.
WoW was always centered around vertical progression, in contrast to GW2. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
As someone said before, the problem to me isn’t that zerker gear is overpowered, it’s that defensive is underpowered and tbh useless on hardest fights in dungeons/fractals. So even if you nerf zerker to give only 1% dmg more than full vitality, I’ll still use it.
You have a dodge mechanic in this game, that’s better than any vitality or toughness you can ever stack.
For me there are 2 viable solutions without nerfing anyone’s hard-earned gear (zerker ascended armor anyone?):
- Make armor and toughness better in pve, while also maybe nerfing dodge a little
- Change a lot of mechanics in damage dealt by bosses in high end dungeons, make them hit more frequently for less damage.
PS. Also the ‘problem’ with PUGs usually only taking full zerker mesmer or warrior is not of gear balance but of class balance, [not everyone has/wants to play/plays] those classes only. If you nerf zerker gear, they will just find other meta and pick it.
ah zerker: once in TA a warrior bosted bout a 35k 100blades, meanwhile i was thinking “oh full zerker, that was why you were downed a lot”
never got why people adored glass cannon, you just die a whole lot faster if a mistake is made at all, and its near worthless in WvW as soon as you start taking hits from multible people
its also 66% worthless against bosses such as the shatterer, golem mark 2 or the fire elemental: since they are immune to crits thus presision/critdamage are negated leaving only power
back on topic with dungeons the zerker stacking works only if the mobs fall for it: example the fire golem from sorrows embrace doesnt go into your stack so it nukes the team with its fire patches and fire spin
honestly i think zerker stacking is the main source of the dominance, stacking itself is a double edge sword and zerker armor is playing dangerously close to that closer blade, if stacking fails they basicly stabbed themselfs with that double edge sword
on a side note majority of the zerker stated people i’ve encountered in dungeons have been warriors (made one myself to see how effective it is and i do say its very effective having large HP and armor already). so yea, warrior zerker is most viable in terms of efficency since even with zerker everything they are still in the area i’d consider “minmaxed”
Good. Tired of zerk elitists telling you’re useless/holding the team back if you’re not using full zerk.
All is vain.
We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.
Jon
If you want to go through with this, please do not make Berserker’s setups weaker but make the other setups stronger/more useful. Nerfing the zerker gear will only end in dumbed down and more boring gameplay. Buffing everything else will likely have similar effects but there might be ways to avoid them more so than when nerfing zerker.
That won’t solve the problem because zerker elitists will still be QQing about how you’re not in zerker.
But people not able to see through the fact other builds, after a change of the meta , like a general buff to condition damage for example, could be stronger then berzerk will not be “elitist” anymore.
It wouldn’t make their armors useless, or their tactics. It would just make the huge difference between DPS and DOT smaller or even turn the meta from pure DPS to DOT or a usefull combination.
On the other hand moving the meta from offensive to defensive will slow everything down to snail speed and kill the game unless all health would be reduced further. This would start an unwanted nerf cycle. and this is what would happen with the plain reduction of zerk or assassin armor.
The biggest problem with zerk is probably the warriors & the idiot amount of power they can reach without much effort.
Having 3800 power with all buffs is not impossible. (2800 base ( with runes, signet of power, banner of strength, foods taken into account), 250 sigil of bloodlust , 875 power from might, stacking of might using the might from greatsword-trait, 100+ critical dmg and 100% fury uptime (+20% critical chance), and a banner of dicipline adding 6% crit chance and +15% crit chance more. With a banner specced second warrior adding a further 150 power with empower you’ll get to amounts of damage which are rediculous. In the end the scaling of at least warrior skills could be adjusted to make them scale less with power and improving the base, hereby nerfing the full zerk warrior thing, but some classes are doing nicely with their zerk or assassin builds providing strong but not overpowered damage.But DPS > DOT > Defensive in any circumstance in the present meta. so speccing for power precision and crit dmg will stay unless conditions are changed radically…
XD
fun fact, warrior is only average dps.so this is how much people who write “nerf berserker” know about the game.
good night arenanet.
Just a remark, in the 5 posts I made before there is not 1 from me that says nerf zerk as a stat. I’m opposed to burning the stat into the ground, I rather see condition damage reworked and with the new estimated dps then see all bosses reworked (hp/blocks/shelter/invunerability/condi removal/area denial/defiant/an AI that doesn’t just go sit in a corner and die.
It does say berserker warrior could be toned down a little, but imho it could include powerthief powermancer, powerranger, powermesmer… and otyher power builds..
The situation where people talk about most often is HB, rapid fire and the number 2 axe skill of the necro. Those skills do nice big numbers but the DPS (damage per second) is mediocre as the skill takes 3-4 seconds to channel, leaving you with 5k dps… but people also forget that in most cased the people using those builds run with full might full fury and high vunerability, with or without banners. You and I know the base damage and the dungeon damage are worlds apart.
Changing this asks for a skill change not in skill function but in power scaling for characters. Not a zerk/sin nerf…
Changing zerk and sin will only change the meta. just change the concepts of fighting. Make people want to do conditions. Make other builds useful. don’t destroy them.
My mistake was to forget to say : example given a hundred blades warrior.
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
I have been waiting for a discussion like this for the longest time, and I do hope Anet does make changes which makes other playstyles more welcomed in PVE.
I don’t think Zerker/Sin gear or stats should be nerfed or changed in anyway, so that the players who enjoy the high risk-high rewards type of gameplay can continue with what they love. If 5 glasscannons can dodge, employ evasion skills and know when to block at the right time, then more power to them. They should be granted the faster clear times for choosing such a strategy.
The problem lies in the fact that Healing Power, Vitality, and Toughness are so badly scaled they become a waste of stats. I believe instead of doing anything to affect Zerker/Sin stats, the defensive stats should be given a buff.
1. Double all Healing Power coefficients in PVE so that healing becomes viable. You don’t need a healer in GW2 to succeed but if someone chooses to have a healing playstyle, that player can actually heal and make a difference.
2. When healing become viable, health pool (via Vitality) and defense (via Toughness) become more significant. The reason why Vitality is useless now is mostly because healing is so lacklustre that no matter how much you have, without negating damage, a player would have to burn their heal skill and then get out of the danger zone for a while. With healing, players who invest in Vitality and Toughness can obviously spend a longer time fighting.
3. Remove “Defiant”, the laziest mechanic a developer can ever come up with. Allow interrupts to be a reliable way to prevent those big attacks, along with the blocks, reflects, and blinds. It takes skill and knowledge to know when to interrupt and “Defiant” just belittles control skills.
4. Make pushes, pulls, knockdowns, launches and similar skills draw aggro. I know as a player, nothing kittenes me more than getting knocked around by mobs, somehow I think they should feel the same way. By making control skills a “taunt”, players can actually save each other from being chased down and killed by mobs.
5. Remove the limit on condition stacks in PVE. I don’t think an explanation for this is needed since it’s been talked to death.
6. Make all mob auto-attacks do small damage but be more frequent. This will balance auto-attack damage out between those who choose to heal through it, those who choose to use skills to negate it, and those who have easy access to Vigor and can constantly dodge through it. More frequent and smaller attacks also mean that Toughness will actually be able to prevent damage and be useful.
7. Special attacks which employ control and/or inflict conditions should have cooldowns. Champs and above should have cleaves and aoes. Let purple boss mobs keep their big one shot abilities which players need to learn to avoid. These abilities must have a fair cooldown and be telegraphed.
Simply put, there is already a DPS meta, let’s diversify things by introducing a Healing meta, and a Control meta. The pros can continue with their Zerker/Sin runs, and others who want a change of pace can do other things.
And another thing, to make this work better, it would be good to allow player to save builds. So a group and players can switch between roles easily.
I mentioned this in another thread, but I’ll throw it here, since it fits.
- make toughness far more important. IE: make damage mitigation important. What we have is encounters where the bulk of the enemies do almost no damage, and bosses operate on 1-shot mechanics.
What we need are encounters where the “trash” mobs deal upwards of 1k damage on cleave attacks, others give retaliation to themselves and their allies, and more are de-buffing the players. Seriously – a change to mob design would change the entire meta. If debuffing mobs, clearing conditions and controlling mob movement became as important as dealing damage to the enemies, well, the “dps dps dps dps 111111” meta would just die.
It will be somwhat amusing if zerk gets nerfed and then everyone starts moaning that everything is taking to long to kill.
“Omg do more damage to Teq you nubs we are running out of time!!”.
I mentioned this in another thread, but I’ll throw it here, since it fits.
- make toughness far more important. IE: make damage mitigation important. What we have is encounters where the bulk of the enemies do almost no damage, and bosses operate on 1-shot mechanics.
What we need are encounters where the “trash” mobs deal upwards of 1k damage on cleave attacks, others give retaliation to themselves and their allies, and more are de-buffing the players. Seriously – a change to mob design would change the entire meta. If debuffing mobs, clearing conditions and controlling mob movement became as important as dealing damage to the enemies, well, the “dps dps dps dps 111111” meta would just die.
What’s the point of active dodges, blinds, blocks etc if mobs hit frequently and mitigation (aka passive play) is required?
You’ve just removed a core mechanism of gw2, removed skill play, and promoted passive play.
What’s the point of active dodges, blinds, blocks etc if mobs hit frequently and mitigation (aka passive play) is required?
You’ve just removed a core mechanism of gw2, removed skill play, and promoted passive play.
Hm, that sounds like the situation we have in pvp. And I got to admit, everyone loves that.