Guild Wars 2

Just make it so that scapegoat minion becomes more attractive in a boss fight then running a pure dps build would. Minions and pet are actualy control related and when a boss is hiting at sacrificiable target he technicaly isnt hiting YOU.

Currently pet units are somewhat vilified quite a lot because they aint ’’damage’’ based but ill have you know that when the pets are taking the hits it means you actualy aint taking them.

other alternative is to destroy the zerker enchant definitively and force player to choose between critical damage and no precision and precision and no critical damage wich will results into people going valkiry/rampager hybrid or something of the like and will obviously revalue all specialisation wich worked perfectly well without using zerker gear such as pet specialisations condition damage and support

Ugh, this is a game where you can’t tank or heal yet has stats built around DPS, tank and healing. Of course DPS stats are always going to be better. You could remove berserker’s entirely and what will happen? Assassin meta. Remove that? Knight meta or whatever is the next best DPS option and so on and so on until all you’re left with is the most useless gear.
There is always going to be a “best” method and a “best” build for every class in the current system and it just so happens that full berserker’s DPS is the best at the moment. Good players will continue to run the best stuff while bad players will continue to run the bad stuff and complain when the good players don’t want to play with them.

remove both berzerker and assasin you get knight however knight isnt critical damage based so what do you think will happen? knight is likely on the same lvl as condition damage and pets build damagewise. Well likely get a mix of critical damage and precision in our build but well have a very hard time combining power crit damage and precision again wich will result in a clear revalorisation of everything wich actualy didnt run on critical damage in the first place. Once the critical damage runner becomes on equal damage therm with the conditionmancer and the summon user/petmaster the line between builds blurr and people actualy start taking various builds rethinking what is better and what is not, without critical damage your warrior hundred blade likely will have a hard time breaking the 20k even when fully buffed, pets have static damage wich range between 2 to 3k dps + the master. What will you run once that little ranger in the corner outdps you from using a bow and a pet? Youl run control to keep the target on check and unable to react or youl run condition damage to get your way trought its health, because at that point yea youl likely still do very good phys damage but youl have to consider doing more then just dealing damage if you plan to take down a trickster whos gunna overtank you from kiting and doting your healthbar.

fadeaway.2807:

frans.8092:

I am talking about your " throwing around some phantasmal numbers " – I take offence at that and have reported it as such.

I’m also still waiting for the numbers behind your 30% claim and have reported you for needlessly reporting. (JK but the amount of reports flying around these days is silly).

I also did the numbers myself, the only way I can see a 30% gain is if you accidentally forgot that exotic trinkets don’t come with an upgrade and didn’t give them one.

I did state where I got my numbers from, I used Wiki’s numbers, which totalled exotic trinkets on 358 in major stats. Indeed they list but do not include jewels in their subtotals. When correcting this error I find +16% going from Exotic to Ascended Berserker .

Oh, and thank you for you constructive contributions, it’s been a real pleasure and I am so looking forward to future discussions with you. both of you.

(reposting)

Please Anet make adjustments to mobs not the berserker items themselves. I have no problem with making PVE content more challenge for berserker players, but nerfing the stat combination itself is not the answer and is unfair to those who have full berseker items. Also, I really hope this won’t effect WvW as conditions are already too strong in PVP and any further nerf to zerk would kill many builds.

removing berserker and assasin is the best solution to see that physical damage is on equal therm with condition damage build, control build, and support in a party. The removal of critical damage would put them all on equal therm effectiveness wise. While we could still aquire critical damage from class buff traits and warrior banner the actual lack of gear would prevent us from specialising entirely on pure damage glass cannon without taking the consequance, of course youd deal slightly more damage then the other spec but i dont think that without proper support and control you will survive long, what do you think is the damage defrence between 110% crit damage and 30% when it comes to dealing the dps? Other option could be to nerf zerker in a way that all item gives way less critical damage bonus (lets say 1% crit damage on each item and 2% on big ones) but im not sure that would be enought to actualy make people start to choose something else.

Since everyone now deal nearly the same dps, why wouldnt i run a minion master necro or a support enginer instead, maybe an actual hammer warrior? the group is likely gunna die if we dont have control in the first place to keep the mob put while we hit them because at that point outdamaging them before they hit us is gunna be out of question and well have to rely on every possible role to keep everyone alive not just raw damage and a small cooldown burst well need actual real support and control specialist.

frans.8092:

fadeaway.2807:

frans.8092:

I am talking about your " throwing around some phantasmal numbers " – I take offence at that and have reported it as such.

I’m also still waiting for the numbers behind your 30% claim and have reported you for needlessly reporting. (JK but the amount of reports flying around these days is silly).

I also did the numbers myself, the only way I can see a 30% gain is if you accidentally forgot that exotic trinkets don’t come with an upgrade and didn’t give them one.

I did state where I got my numbers from, I used Wiki’s numbers, which totalled exotic trinkets on 358 in major stats. Indeed they list but do not include jewels in their subtotals. When correcting this error I find +16% going from Exotic to Ascended Berserker .

Oh, and thank you for you constructive contributions, it’s been a real pleasure and I am so looking forward to future discussions with you. both of you.

(reposting)

I was wondering, how are you so sure about that 30%, when each weapon skill has their own damage, and coefficients. Did you do your calculations or eviscerate rank 3, or on a rotation? What class, what weapon, what conditions. Please link me to the thread where your calculations are available. 30% does sound amazing.

Here are the numbers again showing the 30% quote was a mistake.

Forgive the formatting. I’m not allowed to talk about it but my first post providing this information has been deleted. Pretty cool forums.

The only way I can see a 30% gain is if you accidentally forgot that exotic trinkets don’t come with an upgrade and didn’t give them one (frans stated earlier that this is the mistake he made).

Here are the effective power numbers for my 10/30/0/5/25 guardian in my standard group:
exotic no upgrade
14836
exotic with ruby orbs in trinkets
16956
full ascended armor/trinkets
17955
full ascended armor/trinkets/weapon
18894

So yeah, it’s not a 30% gap. More like somewhere between 5-15% depending on whether you class trinkets as hard to acquire ascended gear.

There obviously has been a stat creep from ascended gear and I’d wager it has affected the zerker meta more than other types of gameplay.

kyubi.3620:

removing berserker and assasin is the best solution to see that physical damage is on equal therm with condition damage build, control build, and support in a party. The removal of critical damage would put them all on equal therm effectiveness wise. While we could still aquire critical damage from class buff traits and warrior banner the actual lack of gear would prevent us from specialising entirely on pure damage glass cannon without taking the consequance, of course youd deal slightly more damage then the other spec but i dont think that without proper support and control you will survive long, what do you think is the damage defrence between 110% crit damage and 30% when it comes to dealing the dps? Other option could be to nerf zerker in a way that all item gives way less critical damage bonus (lets say 1% crit damage on each item and 2% on big ones) but im not sure that would be enought to actualy make people start to choose something else.

Since everyone now deal nearly the same dps, why wouldnt i run a minion master necro or a support enginer instead, maybe an actual hammer warrior? the group is likely gunna die if we dont have control in the first place to keep the mob put while we hit them because at that point outdamaging them before they hit us is gunna be out of question and well have to rely on every possible role to keep everyone alive not just raw damage and a small cooldown burst well need actual real support and control specialist.

The issue with “leveling” the dps field is that something else will become “meta”.

ex: if all classes/builds get a generic level of X dps, then they will have to bring something else to the group in terms of utility. What this will do is cause specific classes to become even MORE “meta” than they already are. Why would you bring X class when Y class has more utility(assuming same dps)? By having a disparity in dps, at least you have some classes than can bring more utility with a minimal dps loss(ie: Mesmer vs Ele).

tl;dr: it isn’t as simple as simply leveling the dps of all classes.

fadeaway.2807:

…snip…

Yeah my bad, was reading this thread in the morning. I was curious to be honest, so I made a very simple calculation. Just to show that 16% is indeed realistic against squishy targets (on maul, nothing else taken into account). Exotic setup, ascended setup.

Not all mesmer build runs on critical damage some may run phantasm or conditions (you think like if shatter was alone in the world here) and ele can run condition damage and still use utility, Warrior can run banners and shout they can also run physical wich push knockdown and stun mobs around, guardian can run shouts and walls if they want, necro can run minion wells and condition spreads, Enginer can run turret elixir or gadgets they have a lot of utility actualy while ranger brings in traps wich slow the mobs and limit their movement a pet with various buffs and may support with horn and spirits.

Because you guys are limited to that critical damage dpsing mind you actualy ignore everything else that would actualy harm your critical damage in a way or another worse yet you despise any build that cant score as heavy hit as yours do because damage is king right now, those build can be ran on prety much anything from condition damage to support build. Class all have a good number of utility here including ranger wich if condition damage wasnt this much vilified traps in dungeon could actualy earn a respectfull place, + you already got spirit ranger in your book.

All class have more then enought utility skill to be usefull no mather their build, the only thing that impede everyone right now from using them is called ‘’PURE DPS ONLY’’ would you be selfish by imposing a forced damage build on everyone whod actualy like to run something wich is either a hybrid between both or a full control/support spec?

The meta wont be a problem at this point because well have 3 time as many available potential meta as before due to the actual fact some build wich used to be deemed as useless due to their lack of damage (aka minion, support ele, trap ranger, poison thieves, shadow thieves, banner warrior, hammer warrior prety much all those lovely build you guys ignore because they arent 100% damage focused) would now have a place. Right now what do we have? 1 meta per build and its 100% centered about bringing down as much damage as possible, Id rather have 3 to 4 meta possibility using various utility and build then 1 single king lording over everything else because damage makes support and control useless well lets see what happens when your damage is barely only 1.5 time stronguer then that control guy in the corner wich actualy is doing a real job making sure those mobs dont fight.

You dont need 5 warrior to run banners neither do you need a full team of necro using MM, by mixing control damage and support do you achieve the correct balance between character strenght and class those arent meta, its called builds and guild wars is made around builds.

Damage wasnt made to actualy overthrow support and control it was made to fill in the job that the other already did at lesser extent. Because damage will always get the job done true but it shouldnt be so strong as to make the two other roles useless in a fight. The issue is not the ability to dodge, however as people says with less damage bosses becomes more dangerous because you may make a mistake at anytime, normaly people doing the support or the control role exist so to make sure that the ’’damage’’ role is bought the time it needs to get things done. Right now we are fighting fire with fire, what about adding some water and earth to our composition kitten to make it easyer for everyone?

Running pure damage makes every fight easyer for the guys that do flawless dodges because the boss attack less often but punish the average player who miss a step and might have survived if the party had a dedicated support and a control player preventing the hits, where is your justice in that?

kyubi.3620:

Not all mesmer build runs on critical damage some may run phantasm or conditions (you think like if shatter was alone in the world here) and ele can run condition damage and still use utility, Warrior can run banners and shout they can also run physical wich push knockdown and stun mobs around, guardian can run shouts and walls if they want, necro can run minion wells and condition spreads, Enginer can run turret elixir or gadgets they have a lot of utility actualy while ranger brings in traps wich slow the mobs and limit their movement a pet with various buffs and may support with horn and spirits.

Because you guys are limited to that critical damage dpsing mind you actualy ignore everything else that would actualy harm your critical damage in a way or another worse yet you despise any build that cant score as heavy hit as yours do because damage is king right now, those build can be ran on prety much anything from condition damage to support build. Class all have a good number of utility here including ranger wich if condition damage wasnt this much vilified traps in dungeon could actualy earn a respectfull place, + you already got spirit ranger in your book.

All class have more then enought utility skill to be usefull no mather their build, the only thing that impede everyone right now from using them is called ‘’PURE DPS ONLY’’ would you be selfish by imposing a forced damage build on everyone whod actualy like to run something wich is either a hybrid between both or a full control/support spec?

The meta wont be a problem at this point because well have 3 time as many available potential meta as before due to the actual fact some build wich used to be deemed as useless due to their lack of damage (aka minion, support ele, trap ranger, poison thieves, shadow thieves, banner warrior, hammer warrior prety much all those lovely build you guys ignore because they arent 100% damage focused) would now have a place. Right now what do we have? 1 meta per build and its 100% centered about bringing down as much damage as possible, Id rather have 3 to 4 meta possibility using various utility and build then 1 single king lording over everything else because damage makes support and control useless well lets see what happens when your damage is barely only 1.5 time stronguer then that control guy in the corner wich actualy is doing a real job making sure those mobs dont fight.

You dont need 5 warrior to run banners neither do you need a full team of necro using MM, by mixing control damage and support do you achieve the correct balance between character strenght and class those arent meta, its called builds and guild wars is made around builds.

Damage wasnt made to actualy overthrow support and control it was made to fill in the job that the other already did at lesser extent. Because damage will always get the job done true but it shouldnt be so strong as to make the two other roles useless in a fight. The issue is not the ability to dodge, however as people says with less damage bosses becomes more dangerous because you may make a mistake at anytime, normaly people doing the support or the control role exist so to make sure that the ’’damage’’ role is bought the time it needs to get things done. Right now we are fighting fire with fire, what about adding some water and earth to our composition kitten to make it easyer for everyone?

Running pure damage makes every fight easyer for the guys that do flawless dodges because the boss attack less often but punish the average player who miss a step and might have survived if the party had a dedicated support and a control player preventing the hits, where is your justice in that?

What you’re asking for is something that this game was NEVER designed to have: trinity(or in your case unity). No one is forcing you to run Berserker gear. If you don’t like it, don’t run it. If you don’t understand mechanics or can’t dodge attacks, then don’t run it. It isn’t something you should run RIGHT after hitting 80. Stop acting like everything should be a free ride. There has to be risk for reward.

No one is “punishing” anyone here. Again, if you are unfamiliar with game mechanics, then do not run a glassy build. It’s that simple. Don’t try and push other mechanics or trinity type gameplay onto the other players, because we aren’t pushing anything on you. It’s easy enough to start your own LFG and ask for “dedicated Cleric Guardian” etc. If you want a dedicated support: ASK FOR IT. Not that hard.

RE:
“But you’ll just make a New Meta”

Not all Metas are created equal.

It’s true, as long you have communication you’ll have some kind of Meta. But we don’t necessarily have to be saddled with such a bad combination of stagnant and pervasive.

Good Metas are more about the players themselves deposing eachother with a constant churn of fresh perspectives and new ideas. This Meta is so dramatically leaning to one side it doesn’t give people much of a chance to upset, so it only really moves when the devs send out a balance patch and poke it with a stick. It’s stagnant, and that hurts the longevity of the format because it keep the game from feeling Fresh and Alive.

A new player is learning the Meta before they learn the actual game as it’s normally played. A good Meta helps shape your long term goals, it gives you something to strive for after you’ve obtained some degree of mastery over the game. What we have now is so divergent from the core gameplay, it’s less the cherry on top to your investment curve, and more a community accepted standard operating procedure that ultimately circumvents much of learning. A good Meta is something you progress to as a player, not the actual progression itself.

I will gladly roll the dice and hope we can get something healthier than this toxic thing.

Vox Hollow.2736:

I will gladly roll the dice and hope we can get something healthier than this toxic thing.

Unless you start nerfing all the active defense abilities, you’ll juat swap this dps meta for another one. And if you nerf them further than this we’re back to the trinity which will simply create a similar toxic meta but applied to each class individually and their usefulness for each encounter (this will also phase out some classes from some encounters completely…bye bye rangers).
There’s literally no way to fix the current meta without going back to trinity or just creating the next dps meta and not solving anything

What you’re asking for is something that this game was NEVER designed to have: trinity(or in your case unity). No one is forcing you to run Berserker gear. If you don’t like it, don’t run it. If you don’t understand mechanics or can’t dodge attacks, then don’t run it. It isn’t something you should run RIGHT after hitting 80. Stop acting like everything should be a free ride. There has to be risk for reward.

They abolished the ‘’holy trinity’’ so that we stop the vicious cycle of the tank standing still while a healer damage the boss and the dps spam a rotation hoewer they wanted us to run balanced group not just based on damage but on a melting pot of actual build running different stuff and helping in their own way. I understand mechanics, i can dodge attacks, and i like an effective team but i think the role of support and control deserve as much praise as does DPS and that just because you got in over your head dealing big numbers you prety much forgot the value of a decent crowd control hammer warrior or of a minion master in a team having the mobs distract the boss or the adds while you guys smash it. Im not impossing my role on others but neither should DPS be more rewarding then playing support or control be. There is risk to playing dps? Stop lying to yourself for there to even be risk in the first place wed need to cut your damage in half and thats exactly what should be done about critical damage build, your just taking the easy way out rushing down the boss health before it even has a chance to deal you damage and its quite against the very principe of the game.

@Alex
That’s a false dichotomy.
I’ve said this in another thread, but; I can’t tell you how many games I’ve played where roles were both non-essential and relevant. While also being considered more or less mix and matchable to all but the top % of players.

There’s a Tank in this match? Okay. No Tank? Still Okay. Two Tanks? Also Still Okay.

Granted, MMORPGs just seem to generally suck at this, and instead tend to go to the dramatic extremes of ‘one of each role’ or ‘everybody is the same role’. So I can’t really blame you for thinking that’s the only two options available.

nagymbear.5280:

I was wondering, how are you so sure about that 30%, when each weapon skill has their own damage, and coefficients. Did you do your calculations or eviscerate rank 3, or on a rotation? What class, what weapon, what conditions. Please link me to the thread where your calculations are available. 30% does sound amazing.

It was amazing, but I made an error in interpreting the sources that listed the available stat points. basically my reading had me calculate exotics with too low attribute bonusses.

Anyway, damage can be calculated according to the wik page
It links to criticals and other related sources.

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Including critical damage

Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 + Critical Chance * ( Critical Damage + 0.5) )

If you take the ratio for two gear sets the skill specific coefficient remains the same so their ratio is 1.

stof.9341:

So you want ANet to change the dungeon design so that you require the presence of a tank in the group? Maybe you want a healer too?

It wouldn’t be required. It should just never be EASIER to run without defensive gear than it is with it. Having one person build defensively should not make things more difficult for the other 4 zerkers in the party.

AlexEBT.7240:

Vox Hollow.2736:

I will gladly roll the dice and hope we can get something healthier than this toxic thing.

Unless you start nerfing all the active defense abilities, you’ll juat swap this dps meta for another one. And if you nerf them further than this we’re back to the trinity which will simply create a similar toxic meta but applied to each class individually and their usefulness for each encounter (this will also phase out some classes from some encounters completely…bye bye rangers).
There’s literally no way to fix the current meta without going back to trinity or just creating the next dps meta and not solving anything

I was going to post but that’s pretty much it. That’s the way it is – it can be tweaked I guess but ultimately that’s what it comes down to.

Black Box.9312:

stof.9341:

So you want ANet to change the dungeon design so that you require the presence of a tank in the group? Maybe you want a healer too?

It wouldn’t be required. It should just never be EASIER to run without defensive gear than it is with it. Having one person build defensively should not make things more difficult for the other 4 zerkers in the party.

Which it doesn’t, provided that defensive player has built with party support in mind. A player built to support his team through boons and healing can actually make a fight easier with a much larger margin for error than compared with a full DPS squad.
On the other hand it is going to be harder if you run with a person built for his own personal defence. It makes perfect sense after all. With the selfless type the extra damage you take from killing the enemy slower is countered by the extra support. With the selfish type the extra damage is not countered and the berserker dies. It is foolish to think that a fight is going to be easier just because someone has built for defence if none of that defence impacts the other four members of the party.

Ultimately the difference between full zerk and a mix of zerk and defence is time, provided factors like player skill aren’t an issue. Full DPS should be faster than alternatives by definition. In many cases it may be easier to run with some defensive support but it sure as hell won’t be faster.

By removing all active defeneses you will only promote a passive playstyle (or braindead as I like to call it). We ran arah p2 with little to no active mitigation, just by stacking up defensive stats and healing.
For the record, this path has some of the hardest hitting abilitites in the game. Alphards pulls will create bombs that hit you immediatly for extreme damage (25k+ on a zerker warrior 2,1k base armor).
The run was a joke. Ignoring 99% of all boss mechanics just by outtanking/healing them including Alphard bombs and Lupis rapidfires. No coordination required. No “outdps-ing” bosses. No skill required. Just rolling your face over the keyboard.

If that kind of gameplay is engaging you truly have braindamage.

Agony.3542:

By removing all active defeneses you will only promote a passive playstyle (or braindead as I like to call it). We ran arah p2 with little to no active mitigation, just by stacking up defensive stats and healing.
For the record, this path has some of the hardest hitting abilitites in the game. Alphards pulls will create bombs that hit you immediatly for extreme damage (25k+ on a zerker warrior 2,1k base armor).
The run was a joke. Ignoring 99% of all boss mechanics just by outtanking/healing them including Alphard bombs and Lupis rapidfires. No coordination required. No “outdps-ing” bosses. No skill required. Just rolling your face over the keyboard.

If that kind of gameplay is engaging you truly have braindamage.

Exactly.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dodging-in-dungeons/first#post3490289

Here is the video guys. Watch it in it’s entirety. If you can still ask for this kind of game play after that well. Just wow.

Black Box.9312:

It wouldn’t be required. It should just never be EASIER to run without defensive gear than it is with it. Having one person build defensively should not make things more difficult for the other 4 zerkers in the party.

Having some player that doesn’t have any synergy with the rest of the team will never be efficient anyway.

The problem here is that people think you need tank stats. You don’t. You only need the correct weapons, traits and utilities and you can be a support. In fact, the meta speed run teams are done with 5 support classes each boosting each other in a way. One will apply AoE might and Fury, another will reflect projectiles, someone gives full party 100% up protection, one applies constantly vulnerability etc…

You don’t need PVT gear to do any of that, so why can’t you support AND use the highest damaging gear possible?

My opinion is that, in the long run, having everyone use exclusively zerk gear in PvE is good for the game because ANet cannot balance correctly the dungeons for both extremes and so if you are expected to be using only a single gear set, it’s that much easier for them to turn instances into interesting situations with carefully tuned challenges.

As it stands currently, bosses health goes from “hit it till hell freezes over” PVT teams into “blink and you’ll miss it” zerk teams. This is not a compelling environment.

kyubi.3620:

What you’re asking for is something that this game was NEVER designed to have: trinity(or in your case unity). No one is forcing you to run Berserker gear. If you don’t like it, don’t run it. If you don’t understand mechanics or can’t dodge attacks, then don’t run it. It isn’t something you should run RIGHT after hitting 80. Stop acting like everything should be a free ride. There has to be risk for reward.

They abolished the ‘’holy trinity’’ so that we stop the vicious cycle of the tank standing still while a healer damage the boss and the dps spam a rotation hoewer they wanted us to run balanced group not just based on damage but on a melting pot of actual build running different stuff and helping in their own way. I understand mechanics, i can dodge attacks, and i like an effective team but i think the role of support and control deserve as much praise as does DPS and that just because you got in over your head dealing big numbers you prety much forgot the value of a decent crowd control hammer warrior or of a minion master in a team having the mobs distract the boss or the adds while you guys smash it. Im not impossing my role on others but neither should DPS be more rewarding then playing support or control be. There is risk to playing dps? Stop lying to yourself for there to even be risk in the first place wed need to cut your damage in half and thats exactly what should be done about critical damage build, your just taking the easy way out rushing down the boss health before it even has a chance to deal you damage and its quite against the very principe of the game.

The difference here is that no one is screaming for nerfs to pvt/clerics/etc. You guys are and have been screaming for zerk nerfs for quite some time. This by definition is the non zerk community trying to impose themselves on the zerk play style community. You guys are more than welcome/capable of forming your own support/tank/healer lfg posts. Yet somehow it is unacceptable and requires a nerf when zerk players do it? You guys don’t want anyone to say anything about your play style, but it is okay to yell and scream to have our choice taken away from us? There is more than one lane on this highway….let me stay in mine…

Tyrannus Blade.3408:

Black Box.9312:

stof.9341:

So you want ANet to change the dungeon design so that you require the presence of a tank in the group? Maybe you want a healer too?

It wouldn’t be required. It should just never be EASIER to run without defensive gear than it is with it. Having one person build defensively should not make things more difficult for the other 4 zerkers in the party.

Which it doesn’t, provided that defensive player has built with party support in mind. A player built to support his team through boons and healing can actually make a fight easier with a much larger margin for error than compared with a full DPS squad.
On the other hand it is going to be harder if you run with a person built for his own personal defence. It makes perfect sense after all. With the selfless type the extra damage you take from killing the enemy slower is countered by the extra support. With the selfish type the extra damage is not countered and the berserker dies. It is foolish to think that a fight is going to be easier just because someone has built for defence if none of that defence impacts the other four members of the party.

Ultimately the difference between full zerk and a mix of zerk and defence is time, provided factors like player skill aren’t an issue. Full DPS should be faster than alternatives by definition. In many cases it may be easier to run with some defensive support but it sure as hell won’t be faster.

Except with the current mechanics of the game, full zerker makes things go TOO fast for the risk factor to become present. THAT is the problem. I’m not arguing that full zerker parties shouldn’t be faster than non zerker parties, but just that it should never be EASIER.

By being tanky enough u have zero risk. Berserkers have always risk and have to use blind/reflexion skills well timed.
Berserker is NEVER easier.

Norjena.5172:

By being tanky enough u have zero risk. Berserkers have always risk and have to use blind/reflexion skills well timed.
Berserker is NEVER easier.

If that were the case, then you wouldn’t have people complaining about pugs not pulling their weight due to ‘lack of DPS’, causing wipes because you weren’t able to kill that stacked mob before it killed you.

It´s because defensiv playstiles are not helping offensive players. Zerkers are looking for zerkers, all other can pick what they want.

Ignoring alphards bombs? Is not easier then getting 1shottet by them if u don´t dogde/block/reflect her pull?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

“Crab mentality, sometimes referred to as crabs in the bucket, is a phrase that describes a way of thinking best described by the phrase “if I can’t have it, neither can you.” The metaphor refers to a pot of crabs. Individually, the crabs could easily escape from the pot, but instead, they grab at each other in a useless “king of the hill” competition which prevents any from escaping and ensures their collective demise.¹² The analogy in human behavior is that members of a group will attempt to “pull down” (negate or diminish the importance of) any member who achieves success beyond the others, out of envy,³ conspiracy or competitive feelings."

Copied from wikipedia. I’m not going to bother writing anything else, as this article pretty much reflects the mentality of everyone wanting zerk/sin gear nerfed so their brainless/subpar/playhowiwant playstyles aren’t worse than no defense, max offense builds.

Emanuel.9781:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

“Crab mentality, sometimes referred to as crabs in the bucket, is a phrase that describes a way of thinking best described by the phrase “if I can’t have it, neither can you.” The metaphor refers to a pot of crabs. Individually, the crabs could easily escape from the pot, but instead, they grab at each other in a useless “king of the hill” competition which prevents any from escaping and ensures their collective demise.¹² The analogy in human behavior is that members of a group will attempt to “pull down” (negate or diminish the importance of) any member who achieves success beyond the others, out of envy,³ conspiracy or competitive feelings."

Copied from wikipedia. I’m not going to bother writing anything else, as this article pretty much reflects the mentality of everyone wanting zerk/sin gear nerfed so their brainless/subpar/playhowiwant playstyles aren’t worse than no defense, max offense builds.

This

Emanuel.9781:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

“Crab mentality, sometimes referred to as crabs in the bucket, is a phrase that describes a way of thinking best described by the phrase “if I can’t have it, neither can you.” The metaphor refers to a pot of crabs. Individually, the crabs could easily escape from the pot, but instead, they grab at each other in a useless “king of the hill” competition which prevents any from escaping and ensures their collective demise.¹² The analogy in human behavior is that members of a group will attempt to “pull down” (negate or diminish the importance of) any member who achieves success beyond the others, out of envy,³ conspiracy or competitive feelings."

Copied from wikipedia. I’m not going to bother writing anything else, as this article pretty much reflects the mentality of everyone wanting zerk/sin gear nerfed so their brainless/subpar/playhowiwant playstyles aren’t worse than no defense, max offense builds.

If zerker gear and offensive gear in general is nerfed because people like this I believe a lot of players ( myself included) will be driven off from GW2. Especially since a lot of players have now invested a lot of time and gold into making ascended armor.

The only viable solution is to maybe bump up defensive builds a bit – to make them more viable.
There will never be a fix for bad, slow, uninformed and generally terrible players. Just saying.

Black Box.9312:

Norjena.5172:

By being tanky enough u have zero risk. Berserkers have always risk and have to use blind/reflexion skills well timed.
Berserker is NEVER easier.

If that were the case, then you wouldn’t have people complaining about pugs not pulling their weight due to ‘lack of DPS’, causing wipes because you weren’t able to kill that stacked mob before it killed you.

The lack of DPS complaint is the simplest explanation that people come up with if something fails. Yes it might be true that if that player was zerker like the rest the mob would have died however it may also be true that if that player was supportive enough to counter the extra damage taken the mob would have died just as well.
Where we have an issue is in the case that even if the player was fully supportive they still would have died. If supportive builds cannot bridge the gap the lack of DPS makes then that is the problem we have to fix.
There are two ways to solve this problem:
-Either we nerf berserker’s down to the level of the supportive player.
- Or we buff the supportive player up to the berserker’s level.
Let’s explore these two solutions:
-Say we nerf all berserker’s. You are going to kitten off a lot of people. People who’ve worked hard to equip themselves in top tier gear are going to feel like their efforts have been made pointless. You wouldn’t be happy if you feel like that 300G+ you’ve spent gearing yourself was for nothing. Second of all you’re increasing the length and difficulty of all dungeons in the game and as a result making them even less appealing. With this option you’re not only kittening people off but making content less enjoyable.
-Now let’s say we buff support. This in my opinion is the much better option. This neither frustrates people or immediately alters the content of the game. For your full DPS skilled group nothing has changed. However for a mixed group the situation is very different to before. That supportive player now not only makes up for his lack of DPS but actually more than makes up for it. His presence makes the content slightly easier and the mob dies. No-one starts yelling that he didn’t pull his weight and caused a wipe because he did pull his weight.
It is important that the more support players you add the easier content becomes in proportion to the extra time it takes as it means that the easiest but slowest method becomes full support and the hardest but fastest is full DPS, as it should be. From here you can balance the dungeon content itself to decide just how hard content should be for full DPS groups.

for light armor users only the armor is 550+ golds….

U can´t nerf zerks because there is nothing to nerf. And u can´t buff support. If a support guard (just for example) is useful (in a zerk gruop), he will be needed. And we´ll create a new meta.
But still the same gameplay. Stacking, boring bosses and so on.

Play tanky enough to facetank everything. Or play max dps and avoid everything that can kill u. Both are diffrent playstiles, both are viable. But they should never be mixed within the same gruop.

What about builds wich runs on pets and control do you think that just because im not zerker im utherly tank like? AH thats a good joke, Truth is control build like hammer warrior minion master necro and turret enginer are looked down because despite all the help they provide they dont deal enought damage, zerker over rating the end game makes all those stuff look rubish and useless despite the fact they actualy help shrug the damage off from everyone. My necro is a minion master and my ranger is a beast master what reason is there that just because i choose to put the emphasis on summons and pet i could actualy be refused in a fractal lvl 40s party?

You pretend not to impose yourself but your still impose your build as an elite model wich should be used in all high end dungeons and people not running it are therefore regarded as bads, idiots or just dreamers despite the fact their build might be just as good as yours in their own ways and that the only defrence between your build and their is the ability to deal the tremendous damage you guys does.

I run pets and summon, i WISH i could do the same damage as zerker does with my build but i cant because if they upped pet damage to be on par with zerkers the class would be OP in pvp and that summon already serve a ‘’control’ purpose, a purpose for wich elite teams have no use. If you reduce the damage of zerkers build you also revalue the use of crowd controls and condition damage because the loss of damage means longuer fight and longuer fight means an increased importance of keeping mobs disabled and everyone well healed.

Behing pro right now means running the zerker meta and beating everything in reccord time, thats only a standards the current zerker model setted in and it stayed in the mind of players. As good as you are if you dont run a pure damage build youl be regarded as trash by everyone who does because you ‘’in their belief’’ are hindering down the party.

Tyrannus Blade.3408:

It is important that the more support players you add the easier content becomes in proportion to the extra time it takes as it means that the easiest but slowest method becomes full support and the hardest but fastest is full DPS, as it should be. From here you can balance the dungeon content itself to decide just how hard content should be for full DPS groups.

That’s what I was saying all along. Currently support players are unable to pull their weight in a zerker party no matter how good they are, which is a sign of flawed game design. A full zerker party should always be riskier than a party that has at least 1 defensively geared character, with no exceptions.

defensive doesnt necesarely means gears. Minions masters is a form of defensive crowd control, mesmer p?antasm as well. Bring more sacrificial body and you got a defense even if your glassy. The issue is actualy the viability of build wich dont rely on critical damage to get things done