[PvP] Guardian - the king of support. Why?

[PvP] Guardian - the king of support. Why?

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Posted by: Katran.9186

Katran.9186

Guardians. They have been best supports since BWE. And they still remain “must have” profession for every tournament team:
They can wipe all conditions, they can give ridiculous amount of boons, they can heal everyone and live more than most of their teammates. But that’s not the reason of their superiority. The reason is no one can do anything like that. Their support potential is unique.

Other classes have two or three utility skills, that can be used to help the whole team but that’s not enough. It isn’t even near to replace guardian.
And this kills team diversity in PvP. It’s like “guardian+4” since release of the game. Have you ever seen support elementalist? Support thief? Support necro oh yeah, couple of wells to save the day? Have you ever tried to create one?

The question is – Can professions get more abilities to help their team out? Maybe in thier own unique way? For example necromancer sacrifies a part of his hp (or life force) to spread boons to a teammate. Or Anet is kinda afraid of changing system that works relatively fine?

I explained haltingly but I hope you understand the thought. Guardian shouldn’t be the only one to be useful support. Have you got any thoughts on this?

(edited by Katran.9186)

[PvP] Guardian - the king of support. Why?

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Posted by: Uhtameit.2413

Uhtameit.2413

Ele will be good support after the patch.

[PvP] Guardian - the king of support. Why?

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Posted by: Katran.9186

Katran.9186

Ele will be good support after the patch.

Why do you think so?

[PvP] Guardian - the king of support. Why?

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Posted by: zapv.8051

zapv.8051

I’ve tried building a support necro, and it will probably be stronger after this patch. Well of Blood scales ridiculously well with healing power, and the new GM will be pretty strong in WvW. The problem is that necros don’t have aoe boons like Gaurdians (or much at all for that matter, the boon duration line has 2 boon giving traits). Until they introduce new utilities or weapons or drastically rework the current weapons and traits I don’t think that will change. Eles would be as viable as Gaurdians, but they don’t have the base survivability that Gaurdians have. The problem overall is that no other class can bring survivability, heals, and group boons like a Gaurdian. If they could people would probably be shouting OP because they aren’t used to it. If this is ever going to change other classes need better group support. Specifically necros, mesmers (not utility), and rangers group support is super weak.

Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.

[PvP] Guardian - the king of support. Why?

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Posted by: maeggle.6021

maeggle.6021

Well, Ele is on-par and can be ahead of guardians in terms of defensive boon support, and also provides severeal offensive boons (both only if traited for it) as well as stupid amounts of combo fields and effects. No guardian can do that no matter how you build it.

  • Warriors can provide strong offensive boons (shouts / banners), boon removal (shouts & warhorn), heavy crowd control and supportive combo finishers on most weapons.
  • Necros are superior in terms of boon removal & boon corruption and supports via disabling your enemies.
  • Mesmers support via AoE-cap-abuse, heavy CC, boon sharing and boon removal (if built for it).
  • Engineers provide awesome support via elixirs, toolkits, CC and stupid amounts of blast finishers.
  • Thieves provides support via stealth & stomp interruption while still dealing massive damage.
  • Rangers are masters of regeneration & swiftness while running rather selfish builds. Spirits provide the team with stupidly strong buffs, and they may use short cooldown shouts for some more support and condition removal.

Some of those classes may not shine in the current sPvP meta, but all of them have very good support at their fingertips. Some have to build for it, others have it by default. None is superior over the other whatsoever in terms of support. Every class can fill its supportive niche and can be great at it.

tl;dr: Support != defensive boon provision…

Kodash [DE] – Ninja Nurse Rescue Squad [care] – Elementalist
A landing you can walk away from just wasn’t fast enough.

[PvP] Guardian - the king of support. Why?

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Posted by: Neko.9021

Neko.9021

Guardians are weird because despite the fact that they fill the job of general mid-bunker support far better than any other class, they aren’t particulalry broken. They do pretty bad damage, can still be focused down if their cooldowns are blown, have limited mobility, and honestly need to work with other players to really accomplish anything (as opposed to the various Condi-Bunkers that can tank as well as do good damage).

At the same time, they certainly just sort of push out any serious mid-support class.

I really don’t think much can be done. While Eles get close to Guardians in terms of boon support, they lack RANGE on their boons. While an Ele in theory should be giving out tons of Protection, Regen, and Stability if set up as Bunker, it rarely turns out this way due to the incredibly small range of Elemental Attunent and Rock Solid – 240 units.

Guardians will always be the best support class if only because their virtues have a massive 1200 range, and their shouts a 600 range.

On the other hand, other classes such as Banner-Bunker Warrior, Decap Bunker Engi, Bunker Spirit Ranger, and Bunker Minion Master Necro all do a far better job at Bunkering the side nodes than Guardian does. So it’s not all that bad.

[PvP] Guardian - the king of support. Why?

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Posted by: Katran.9186

Katran.9186

On the other hand, other classes such as Banner-Bunker Warrior, Decap Bunker Engi, Bunker Spirit Ranger, and Bunker Minion Master Necro all do a far better job at Bunkering the side nodes than Guardian does. So it’s not all that bad.

Bunkering and supporting are fundamentally different. I want to support my team without playing boring “the one and only” guardian build but it seems to be impossible now.

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Posted by: Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

Guardian is great for a team, but does it make PvP boring and stale? And is it required? I’d say “no” to both.

You don’t need a guardian on a PvP team. A strong player in a bunker role of another professions does better than a mediocre bunker guardian. And before things fell apart last summer with the condi meta, guardian-less teams were doing well in tournaments because they didn’t tie down a player to a specific point.

If you wanted to weaken guardian support, increasing the cooldown on shouts slightly would do a lot.

Kirrena Rosenkreutz

(edited by Exedore.6320)

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Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

I love this thread. It displays the complete truth about the 8 professions in how they are not absurdly broken, but rather different. Sure a handful of certain mechanics need some tweaking but it isn’t hurting your team by choosing profession A over B as long as their build can achieve what you want/need.

As meaggle pointed out, everyone has support potential just in different forms. Anyone can spec for dps, anyone can spec for support, almost everyone can spec for bunker.

“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”

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Posted by: Uhtameit.2413

Uhtameit.2413

Ele will be good support after the patch.

Why do you think so?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vEAQFAWhMM6a25wwBd0AA5BMvAw4RIjAQpwOA-TkAgzCmIuRdj7GzNybs3M+A

This is just an example of build, you could get something similar now (0/0/10/30/30) that would be almost as good.

After the patch though, going 30 into earth will be good to get the new GM, so you can get Rock Solid (group stability every 11s) and you can get Cleansing Water or +25% outgoing heal at 30 in water (depending on the team you’re facing).

AoE heal, AoE cleanses, AoE ccs and a little of damage on top of that. Staff ele will be an excellent support class.

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

Everyone’s support is different anything that benefits you and is provided by another class is technically support.

You got a condi removed from someone’s shout or someone cc’d a target for you then you’ve been supported.

Boons aren’t the only type of support it’s just that guardians can give the good defensive boons quickly on a short cooldowns with manageable radius.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

[PvP] Guardian - the king of support. Why?

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Posted by: Neko.9021

Neko.9021

On the other hand, other classes such as Banner-Bunker Warrior, Decap Bunker Engi, Bunker Spirit Ranger, and Bunker Minion Master Necro all do a far better job at Bunkering the side nodes than Guardian does. So it’s not all that bad.

Bunkering and supporting are fundamentally different. I want to support my team without playing boring “the one and only” guardian build but it seems to be impossible now.

All of these builds I mentioned support their teams in their own ways. The Warrior provides condi removal and perma regen with high healing power and good CC with Mace and Shield. The decap Engi provides a continuous stream of constant CC, both hard and soft. The Ranger provides the buffs from Spirits and the Spirit Res. The Minion Master Necro has lots of soft and hard CC and really helps put the pressure on someone with their passive AI. These builds are ALSO very strong at holding a point in a 1v1, because the Warrior and Engi are unkillable in a 1v1 and the Necro and Ranger are very strong 1v1 specs when fighting over a node. The Guardian, on the other hand, while able to hold a point for a little bit, really needs to fight in team fights, and hence why they end up as Mid-Bunker rather than as a Home Bunker.

But Home Bunker is a very important job, even if it’s the dullest thing in the world. And what makes these specs strong is not only their 1v1 bunker potential, but their ability to also contribute in a team fight.

(edited by Neko.9021)

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Posted by: Katran.9186

Katran.9186

Boons aren’t the only type of support it’s just that guardians can give the good defensive boons quickly on a short cooldowns with manageable radius.

I clearly understand that. For example mesmer has great potential (portal, aoe invisibility, IoL, chaos storm, boon spread signet) but unfortunately you can’t afford yourself taking all these stuff in serious tourneys as you automatically become defective. (No condi cleanse, no stunbreaks, easy kill. Support shouldn’t be easy kill).

Theoretically, someone can organize an unusual team where shortcomings of such build could be covered by strong sides of other “unusual” teammates. However, would it be at least as effective as classic tourney team in our meta? That’s the question.

The thing I’d like to see in game – more support potential for other classes (come on, mm necro has none. And mm necros in current meta? Please. Not at Eu) and some more survivability for those builds who lacking it while being strong support.

By the way, as for me, I don’t think CC can be called supportive. You can call damage dealing supportive as well, because, you know, you do help your team.

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Posted by: Katran.9186

Katran.9186

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vEAQFAWhMM6a25wwBd0AA5BMvAw4RIjAQpwOA-TkAgzCmIuRdj7GzNybs3M+A

This is just an example of build, you could get something similar now (0/0/10/30/30) that would be almost as good.

After the patch though, going 30 into earth will be good to get the new GM, so you can get Rock Solid (group stability every 11s) and you can get Cleansing Water or +25% outgoing heal at 30 in water (depending on the team you’re facing).

AoE heal, AoE cleanses, AoE ccs and a little of damage on top of that. Staff ele will be an excellent support class.

Such ele won’t last long even with 30 earth and water if being focused. He has nice skills for big fights, yet he has problems with healing power scaling. He has too low support potential to be support. He has too low damage to be damage dealer.
I can’t say for sure how good this build will be in a new meta. Anyway it’s worty of trying it.

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Posted by: Uhtameit.2413

Uhtameit.2413

Won’t last long? access to stability on a 10s basis so you can channel your heal easy enough, regardless of that Healing Rain will cleanse all conditions and with Heart of Stone you can nullify a burst if you see one coming your way.

How could you not last long? sure, it’s not guardian bunker, but it has better support if you ask me.

That build has low damage, but it’s the same for support guardian. Too low support? AoE chill, AoE stun (plus the earth wall), AoE heals and cleanses and some little damage on top of it…I don’t get how that could be bad.

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Posted by: Katran.9186

Katran.9186

Won’t last long? access to stability on a 10s basis so you can channel your heal easy enough, regardless of that Healing Rain will cleanse all conditions and with Heart of Stone you can nullify a burst if you see one coming your way.

Easy kill for, let’s say, s\d thief. Because he has no burst. He has tunneling. Your ele won’t last long using earth only.
Or any burst when you heal, the very second you swapped attunements. This build is really vulnerable for such tricks. May be it’s viable against condition oriented team, taking diamond skin…
Well, we’ll see.