Guild Wars 2

Most players have no problem to avoid slow lich form auto attack- just make circle.
0 hits = 0 dps.
Maybe this skill need buf to faster moving projectile?
Why? because it’s useless vs players who REALLY have played pvp and know little about necromancer.
Problem solved.

I avoid the lich hands by strafing back and forth. Its easy as hell to abuse the projectile auto targeting with such a slow moving projectile. I do the same with necromancers that try to use staff auto attack.

what are you talking about?
elite skills are meant to be powerful.

lich form does not need a nerf.

i play a warrior mainly and when i get burst down by necromancers in lich form, i accept that, i do not come into the forums to whine and complain.

Overpowered?

Self buffed, my DS auto-attack make double damage than my lich form auto-attack…(between 4.5K to 5.5k vs 2k to 3k).

For me, it’s the most useless skill since i can go DS every 5-10s vs 180s for lich form.
totally useless…..

i was wondering when people started complaining bout Lich..
I guess there is nothing left to nerf for necro’s except Lich and CC..

I don’t think lich form needs any nerfs TBH. Even if this one aspect of Lich Form is OP, removing it would make it virtually useless compared to the other 2 amazing elites that necros have. Balance not only needs to take into account how other classes are affected, but how each individual skill matches up against alternatives.

Putting that aside, I don’t think it’s very OP. Lich form is a pretty huge trade off, a long cooldown you have no access to deathshroud or heal. The skill itself is easily dodged by backed up somewhere and strafing. Most of the other skills on lich are sub par outside of very specific situations.

TBH I think power necros are in a good place. It’s condi necros we need to be looking at.

I’m with the ones who say it’s underpowered if anything.
The projectiles are trivial to avoid even in tight spots. The ground attacks are good, but on rather long CDs.

Lich Form has one of the longest cooldowns of any Necro elite, and is slow as heck. The projectiles are easy to avoid, or you can just run away from the necro, because it only lasts a few seconds. After that, he can’t use it again for AGES!

Lich form is one of the worst elite necro possess and thus for 3 reason

1. If speced right a Death shroud necro can achieve the same damage as lich form with life blast in near permanance.
2. Lich form CANNOT self heal
3. Lich form doesnt actualy have a fear mechanics and is just a big lets get killed button in your spell bar you might as well run flesh golem.

I say this as an actual pure Death shroud necro damager, Lich form isnt even worth using to begin with and id likely want to get it buffed so that it can actualy heal or defend itself before i even run it again.

kyubi.3620:

Lich form is one of the worst elite necro possess and thus for 3 reason

1. If speced right a Death shroud necro can achieve the same damage as lich form with life blast in near permanance.
2. Lich form CANNOT self heal
3. Lich form doesnt actualy have a fear mechanics and is just a big lets get killed button in your spell bar you might as well run flesh golem.

I say this as an actual pure Death shroud necro damager, Lich form isnt even worth using to begin with and id likely want to get it buffed so that it can actualy heal or defend itself before i even run it again.

-
5. The stability on it can be removed easily.

The damage is laugable compared to other sources the necro has. The only really good benefit it has is the stat bonus.
The uptime is fine, it’s just feels weak. When you use Lich form, it should be a “oh we are kittened” moment at your enemies, not a “yay free kill!” …

As a thief i can say it hits like a truck . . . once it just kitten d me with 2 or 3 hits. . .

But i do not really think is OP because of the cool down.

I’ve always just used weakness, or screamed at a team mate tills he applied it

It hits to hard. They should adreess that.

You can also boon strip and cc, but I can understand it being a problem in solo q

All three necromancer elites are great, Lich Form doesn’t need a nerf.

Josh Davis.6015:

While Lich does a metric ton of damage, it’s also extremely telegraphed and on a rather long cooldown. If anything, Lich does an excellent job of area-denial – I’ll gladly vacate a point for 20 seconds or so to avoid it.

This is unrelated, but I remember a certain PvP team that ran 2 Lich necros and Time Warp mesmer (before the haste changes). It was brutal.

Anyways, as you were…

The problem is AA being ranged. Put it melee.

The skill has a long CD, its dmg source is heavily telegraphed and easy to avoid, and the caster has no defensive options while the skill is in effect. I think it is quite powerful, indeed, but also costly to the user.

Andlat Helsonr.1284:

The skill has a long CD, its dmg source is heavily telegraphed and easy to avoid, and the caster has no defensive options while the skill is in effect. I think it is quite powerful, indeed, but also costly to the user.

Sums it up quite nicely… If we want to talk about necro skills that are OP this has got to be the bottom of the list. One because it requires you to be a power-mancer which is a rare sight and still very susceptible to being focused and killed, two flesh golem… that is all.

Disagree completely, I think Lich Form is about perfect and the other transform elites in the game are laughably underpowered except maybe whirlpool. Every other transform takes away far more than it gives.

Honestly, when was the last time anybody saw Rampage, Tornado, Elixir S, or Plague? Rampage is probably the best of them and still nobody uses it over the banner or signet, tornado might as well be a suicide button, Elixir S is just a worse form of the previous two, and Plague actually does less damage against a single target than the scepter auto-attack.

Elems use tornado all the time to boost their meteor shower damage. It’s quite the thing in WvW. Also, plague form is very good in WvW. Even a lot of power necros use it to mitigate damage for the group.

With respect to lich form. I’ve killed tons of people with it, but I can’t ever recall being killed by it myself. It is exceedingly good at clearing the field of upscales and zerkers.

Oozo.7856:

Elems use tornado all the time to boost their meteor shower damage. It’s quite the thing in WvW. Also, plague form is very good in WvW. Even a lot of power necros use it to mitigate damage for the group.

With respect to lich form. I’ve killed tons of people with it, but I can’t ever recall being killed by it myself. It is exceedingly good at clearing the field of upscales and zerkers.

Honestly with how zerging has destroyed WvW I have no idea what the meta builds are for any class, been too disgusted with the mode to set foot in it for months. But I believe both the OP and I were specifically addressing SPvP, in which I cannot remember the last time I saw anybody using any of the transform elite besides Lich Form.

SoLeciTO.3490:

As a thief i can say it hits like a truck . . . once it just kitten d me with 2 or 3 hits. . .

But i do not really think is OP because of the cool down.

Problem is that like some necroes here already said. They can trait for a DS with 10s cd that hits just as hard… 5k dmg per shot while we as thief are in close combat can be devastating

I actually don’t find Lich the most dangerous part of power Necs (that would be Chill of Death + Dark Path into repeated Life Blasts).

It’s a strong elite for sure but at least it has drawbacks: as Symbolic once succinctly put it, “You’re a giant f’n Lich!!”

Agree, Lich Form #1 is op.

Josh Davis.6015:

While Lich does a metric ton of damage, it’s also extremely telegraphed and on a rather long cooldown. If anything, Lich does an excellent job of area-denial – I’ll gladly vacate a point for 20 seconds or so to avoid it.

This is unrelated, but I remember a certain PvP team that ran 2 Lich necros and Time Warp mesmer (before the haste changes). It was brutal.

Anyways, as you were…

Honestly, it does do too much damage. There are ways to counterplay it, but it has extreme potential to snowball a team fight as soon as one person goes down. Luckily for team arena, power necro as a whole isn’t the best spec, but especially for solo arena or lower elo teams, lich form is very, very destructive tool, especially combined with wells + transform shenanigans. The autoattack should be toned down and other lich moves should be slightly buffed to compensate, I think.

cymerdown.4103:

Josh Davis.6015:

While Lich does a metric ton of damage, it’s also extremely telegraphed and on a rather long cooldown. If anything, Lich does an excellent job of area-denial – I’ll gladly vacate a point for 20 seconds or so to avoid it.

This is unrelated, but I remember a certain PvP team that ran 2 Lich necros and Time Warp mesmer (before the haste changes). It was brutal.

Anyways, as you were…

Honestly, it does do too much damage. There are ways to counterplay it, but it has extreme potential to snowball a team fight as soon as one person goes down. Luckily for team arena, power necro as a whole isn’t the best spec, but especially for solo arena or lower elo teams, lich form is very, very destructive tool, especially combined with wells + transform shenanigans. The autoattack should be toned down and other lich moves should be slightly buffed to compensate, I think.

As has been previously stated, if properly spec’d, Life Blast can easily exceed Death Claws’s damage. If the Necro does nothing but spam Lich auto, they can fire it up to 20 times on a 180 second cooldown. It locks Necros out of their heal, utility skills, and profession mechanic (and associated benefits). It’s also the most telegraphed skill in the game, since it has a giant green wraith informing you it’s coming, and it’s pretty slow.
I figure there are plenty of downsides to offset the damage. If it seems that overpowered to you, once you know it’s there, save your cooldowns and/or run away. Once in Lich Form, there is little the Necro can do to you save damage.
If it makes you feel better, consider that Backstab and Killshot do similar damage on much shorter cooldowns without all the ability locking. They have their own drawbacks, but the points stands.

Since we are on the subject, any plans to revert Lich to beta? pretty please.. with sugar on top.. and sprinkles..whipped cream.. some strawberries..hot chocolate sause maybe some hazel nuts?

hmmm.. brb going out for icecream….

cymerdown.4103:

Honestly, it does do too much damage.

No, it does exactly enough damage to make it useful. If it did any less damage, no one would ever use it.

cymerdown.4103:

There are ways to counterplay it,

Exactly. Period. There are MANY ways to counter play it. In fact, you’d have to be blind to not be able to counter play it. All you need to do to avoid Lich Form, is run away, and then come back a few seconds later. A necro is slowed down considerably while in Lich Form, it lasts very short, and has an insanely long cool down.

cymerdown.4103:

but it has extreme potential to snowball a team fight as soon as one person goes down.

Only if they are a rare breed of stupid.

cymerdown.4103:

The autoattack should be toned down and other lich moves should be slightly buffed to compensate, I think.

What auto attack?

silentnight warrior.2714:

The problem is AA being ranged. Put it melee.

Because running sideways, called “strafing” by the more experienced players, is such a complex thing to do? (the AA doesn’t track)

Carighan.6758:

silentnight warrior.2714:

The problem is AA being ranged. Put it melee.

Because running sideways, called “strafing” by the more experienced players, is such a complex thing to do? (the AA doesn’t track)

Well, like most ranged attacks it’s aimed to intersect where you are if you move in a traight line, so that’s sort of tracking?

It’s in no way homing though. Always travels in a straight line upon release with 0 deviation.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

cymerdown.4103:

Honestly, it does do too much damage.

No, it does exactly enough damage to make it useful. If it did any less damage, no one would ever use it.

That’s not true, if the other attacks in Lich Form are good, the autoattack (#1 attack) can be decreased and the kit would still be useful. The damage is very high (as if someone is spamming you with Arcing Arrow every second and it pierces).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

cymerdown.4103:

There are ways to counterplay it,

Exactly. Period. There are MANY ways to counter play it. In fact, you’d have to be blind to not be able to counter play it. All you need to do to avoid Lich Form, is run away, and then come back a few seconds later. A necro is slowed down considerably while in Lich Form, it lasts very short, and has an insanely long cool down.

Not just a few seconds, 20 seconds. This is conquest game mode… if all the skill did was make an entire team run away for 20 seconds once every 3 minutes and let me capture a point for free, then I would take that skill on my team. Can’t always “just run away” when the entire mode is built around controlling territory.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

cymerdown.4103:

but it has extreme potential to snowball a team fight as soon as one person goes down.

Only if they are a rare breed of stupid.

You’re not necessarily dumb if you happen to die sometimes to 5k crit attacks. I’ve played with some of the best in the game, and you just get focused down sometimes, it happens. Anyway, what I meant was once that person is down, they are going to be very hard to res with 5k piercing attacks hitting the body. If you can’t res them, then you usually have lost the fight cuz you’re down a person.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

cymerdown.4103:

The autoattack should be toned down and other lich moves should be slightly buffed to compensate, I think.

What auto attack?

The #1 attack, deathly claws.

cymerdown.4103:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

cymerdown.4103:

The autoattack should be toned down and other lich moves should be slightly buffed to compensate, I think.

What auto attack?

The #1 attack, deathly claws.

That’s an inside joke since it has been bugged since forever – the game won’t remember your autoattack settings for Lich, so you have to manually assign it every time.

cymerdown.4103:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

cymerdown.4103:

Honestly, it does do too much damage.

No, it does exactly enough damage to make it useful. If it did any less damage, no one would ever use it.

That’s not true, if the other attacks in Lich Form are good, the autoattack (#1 attack) can be decreased and the kit would still be useful. The damage is very high (as if someone is spamming you with Arcing Arrow every second and it pierces).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

cymerdown.4103:

There are ways to counterplay it,

Exactly. Period. There are MANY ways to counter play it. In fact, you’d have to be blind to not be able to counter play it. All you need to do to avoid Lich Form, is run away, and then come back a few seconds later. A necro is slowed down considerably while in Lich Form, it lasts very short, and has an insanely long cool down.

Not just a few seconds, 20 seconds. This is conquest game mode… if all the skill did was make an entire team run away for 20 seconds once every 3 minutes and let me capture a point for free, then I would take that skill on my team. Can’t always “just run away” when the entire mode is built around controlling territory.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

cymerdown.4103:

but it has extreme potential to snowball a team fight as soon as one person goes down.

Only if they are a rare breed of stupid.

You’re not necessarily dumb if you happen to die sometimes to 5k crit attacks. I’ve played with some of the best in the game, and you just get focused down sometimes, it happens. Anyway, what I meant was once that person is down, they are going to be very hard to res with 5k piercing attacks hitting the body. If you can’t res them, then you usually have lost the fight cuz you’re down a person.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

cymerdown.4103:

The autoattack should be toned down and other lich moves should be slightly buffed to compensate, I think.

What auto attack?

The #1 attack, deathly claws.

the #1 attack ,deathly claws. Its to easy to avoid all dps- especially if You play Guardian who have a LOT OP skills

“Anyway, what I meant was once that person is down, they are going to be very hard to res with 5k piercing attacks hitting the body”

As You say to get hit by deathly claws You need a Downed player !!
This looks like a joke to have skill who can hit good only a Downed player!!
Dont You think so?

Thats why i think Deathly claws shal be buffed, and then the most OP Guardian skills need be nerfed to restore balance in this world of Wrath

It definetly isnt easy to avoid in practice. I guess people can blind it and aegis is an issue but really the auto attack is too strong. You can all use your pointless debates, the facts are you can put lich in the hands of a newbie necro and they will still be very effective.

How are people saying Lich is OP when warriors, ele’s and guardians can easily out-dps it with their normal non-elite skills.

Necros get 30 seconds of not-quite-as-good-as-the-top-dps-specs damage with a giant cooldown and people complain?

For intro…I play power necro since i got bored of condi in summer.

1) Why is CM not “cheezing” with 3 power necros then?

2) It is in same power range as moa or plague form. only unlike plague, its got some risk and its less annoying to deal with. Ask yourself honestly..

3) I kill 75% poeple with wells combo. 20% i kill when the chill trait hits. The rest is the AA.

4) the auto is a but smaller than DS auto, biggest deference is on bunkers, since u get more power to break through.
Same problem,
-blind, dodge, block, delfect , blind ,dodge… shatter remove stability – Ping pong.
- Range – move left/right to avoid with dancing
- melee – thief can blind but ull probably die, try to dps me and take me down with u

5) Its dmg already got nerfed / capped once

6) Id take a 10-20% nerf on #1 , for reduced CDs and CAST TIMES on #3 and #5
But then ppl will only moore combo it with wells , like grouch sad, 1v1 u should run , in teamfight focus it.

Final its a snowball skill , focus necro and it wont get time to shine.

Edit: im actuay happy to see complains. It shows that main-best-class-at condi , is massively swithing to power just to deal with wariors. Theres a lot of biger imbalances , start from the top.

Skill is manageable and avoidable.
However, it is relatively more powerful than other elite abilities or certainly very top tier.
Mortar on the other hand. . . . (you may have to go look it up as infrequently as you will see it).

Bombsaway.7198:

Skill is manageable and avoidable.
However, it is relatively more powerful than other elite abilities or certainly very top tier.
Mortar on the other hand. . . . (you may have to go look it up as infrequently as you will see it).

Wait, Engineers have elites other than Supply Drop? I could have sworn they only had the one.

lich form is not over powered by any means.
pros:
-high damage ranged auto attack
-AOE vulnerability
-5 jagged horrors
-a chill+purge
-a condition cleanse
cons:
-no mobility (easy to escape from and prevent escape)
-susceptible to conditions (only one 2 condition cleanse available)
-long cooldown
-cannot heal while in lich form
-easy to spike down (no defensive skills)
-auto attack can be avoided like staff auto attack

Hell, you can honestly just force the necro to leave lich if you give it enough pressure.

Fun fact of the day:

-Interrupting 1s lich cast will make it go on full 180s CD. -

First of all, it is an elite skill, so it is supposed to be powerful.

Second of all, if a Necro is using Lich, he is a power Necro, which in Spvp means he is squishy, with no mobility, and should be focused immediately. Lich adds some HP and maybe some armor, but a Necro in zerker will still die very fast in Lich, and Lich has no defense at all, or healing, so yeah.

THIRDLY! The projectiles from the #1 skill are slow, don’t home-in on their target, and can be dodged/blocked/evaded/immuned/blinded/whatever. I once had a Guardian block/dodge/blind every single attack from my Lich form for 20 seconds while we were fighting for a point. It was kitten ridiculous.

one single shatter/corrupt boon/bountiful steal then just play ping pong with the giant and scary lich.

Suddenly not that OP.

A lot of these responses are to the title of the thread, which is admittedly inaccurate. If you actually read the post, he’s not saying that power necro, or lich form as a whole is overpowered. He’s saying that lich form #1 skill hits too hard, which is accurate. Power necro as a whole is not quite top tier viable (thief says hello), but that doesn’t mean that lich form in its current iteration is how it should be. Lich form should just be reworked a little to make some of the other skills in the kit a bit better but reduce the auto’s damage by a small margin (10%ish should be enough).

Lots of things are a little harder when playing against a necro for my mains (engineer and ranger) but the lich form certainly isn’t one of them. . . except in one situation (see below).

The lich doesn’t move well.

On the other hand, if the lich is on a cap point or a choke point it is pretty darn amazing for a short period of time. And they are burnable from a distance. You just want no part of being close by.

Not on my list of things to be too concerned about. Situationally it is extremely powerful by design.

cymerdown.4103:

A lot of these responses are to the title of the thread, which is admittedly inaccurate. If you actually read the post, he’s not saying that power necro, or lich form as a whole is overpowered. He’s saying that lich form #1 skill hits too hard, which is accurate. Power necro as a whole is not quite top tier viable (thief says hello), but that doesn’t mean that lich form in its current iteration is how it should be. Lich form should just be reworked a little to make some of the other skills in the kit a bit better but reduce the auto’s damage by a small margin (10%ish should be enough).

If you take a look at other skills, they’re pretty strong too.

Grim specter ( lich form 5th skill) is ridicolously strong ( basically 6-7k AoE damage curing conditions and ripping boons), a nice knockback + chill on 3 and good AoE damage + 8vuln stacks on 2.

The only lackluster skill is the 4th.

I play power necro ( as a main, along with thief) from dumbfire patch and when i use lich, i use all my skills because 80% of times they’re worth it.

1 does lots of damage but needs to be that way, Lich Form is exactly the way elite skills should be: gamechanging.

Like a well placed Moa on a bunker guard ( when mesmers could still actually use Moa).

Trouble with gamechanging elites is when you have ohh 20 people stacked up each with something game changing spamming one right after another.

But in small group situations, yep. . . .

Mrbig.8019:

cymerdown.4103:

A lot of these responses are to the title of the thread, which is admittedly inaccurate. If you actually read the post, he’s not saying that power necro, or lich form as a whole is overpowered. He’s saying that lich form #1 skill hits too hard, which is accurate. Power necro as a whole is not quite top tier viable (thief says hello), but that doesn’t mean that lich form in its current iteration is how it should be. Lich form should just be reworked a little to make some of the other skills in the kit a bit better but reduce the auto’s damage by a small margin (10%ish should be enough).

If you take a look at other skills, they’re pretty strong too.

Grim specter ( lich form 5th skill) is ridicolously strong ( basically 6-7k AoE damage curing conditions and ripping boons), a nice knockback + chill on 3 and good AoE damage + 8vuln stacks on 2.

The only lackluster skill is the 4th.

I play power necro ( as a main, along with thief) from dumbfire patch and when i use lich, i use all my skills because 80% of times they’re worth it.

1 does lots of damage but needs to be that way, Lich Form is exactly the way elite skills should be: gamechanging.

Like a well placed Moa on a bunker guard ( when mesmers could still actually use Moa).

Skill 4 is only lack luster if you let the horrors die. They can do quite a bit of damage if left alive.

People will just complain about anything….

Please remove the Necro from the game so we don’t have to fight them anymore…