[PvP Necro] B-r-o-k-e-n class mechanic

[PvP Necro] B-r-o-k-e-n class mechanic

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Posted by: Flumek.9043

Flumek.9043

Hello.

The 10s weapon and minion swap trick no longer work.

I hope now that the STARTING WITH ZERO LIFEFORCE issue will be looked and addressed,

as this makes necro currently unplayable from start and then snowballing whole game.

  • plain 20% LF at respawn
  • out of combat regen till 20%
  • out of combat regen AND degen till 50% , needs adjusting LF size …
  • anything else , but above were most common points brought up last 2 years

DO IT FAST , THIS IS NEEDS A HOTFIX IN NEXT FEW WEEKS.

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Posted by: Dark FQ.1038

Dark FQ.1038

Yeah this is kittened….

Dark Fq (Desolation and Gandara)all classes condi. http://www.youtube.com/user/FQDark

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

As I see it, they fixed it by making the change your complaining about. Is seems to me that DS is balanced around having to earn the life force to use it. It was broken by allowing you to earn it and use it before combat. In my opinion, your complaint is unfounded. DS, to me, is one of the strongest professional mechanics in the game. Which is why it is intended to require life force to be built to use it.

It might help if you offered an argument supporting the need for access to DS without having earned any life force, but you haven’t done that yet.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

(edited by coglin.1867)

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Posted by: leman.7682

leman.7682

Solution: place 2 little white bugs in both bases so that they can be killed before the match starts.

Ohh, and Anet, by ‘bugs’ I mean creatures, not your usual bugs.

Leman

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

It seems fine to me? Sounds like they just fixed a bug.

Also, all-caps makes you sound extremely stupid, as if you only know how to yell, not talk. Sorry.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: mordran.4750

mordran.4750

Warrior and Necro are the only professions with this kind of “earn ressource through combat”, so either both should have their ressource full at the beginning of a match or none of them. Since every other profession can use their class mechanic from the beginning, imo this should be equalized.

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Posted by: SlimChance.6593

SlimChance.6593

Um, Your missing another profession that has to “earn their resource through combat”.

And this seems to be a “fix” to me. And I mean “fix” similar to how the the Mesmer’s iLeap no longer can swap to the clone’s last position. i.e." the clone must still exist to swap to it" change that happened awhile back.

Eccho, Echo Oread – Mesmers (Yak’s Bend)
My EchoRupt Build - Forum Post

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Posted by: StickerHappy.8052

StickerHappy.8052

Um, Your missing another profession that has to “earn their resource through combat”.

And this seems to be a “fix” to me. And I mean “fix” similar to how the the Mesmer’s iLeap no longer can swap to the clone’s last position. i.e." the clone must still exist to swap to it" change that happened awhile back.

Yea-Yuh

Champion Illusionist Champion Hunter Champion Phantom Champion Magus

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Posted by: Plexxing.2978

Plexxing.2978

Having signet of undeaths’ passive effect work out of combat might make it useful for this situation among others.

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Warrior can use various skills to instantly fill adren and they fill it fast no matter what. Necro cant and it is necros source of defence. Theres a very distinct difference.

Ive never understood the 0% lifeforce at the start. Ive always felt it should start at 20% or something.

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Posted by: NeXeD.3042

NeXeD.3042

It wouldnt bother me at all if warrior started with adrenaline they get it fast anyway

Attention Moderators I am not
S P E E D Starr #0 Necro NA or
I Am NeXeD awful d/D ele NA

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Posted by: Shanks.2907

Shanks.2907

Warrior and Necro are the only professions with this kind of “earn ressource through combat”, so either both should have their ressource full at the beginning of a match or none of them. Since every other profession can use their class mechanic from the beginning, imo this should be equalized.

I’m okay with warriors having a full adrenalin bar at the beginning of the match. By the time you make it off the platform it will have decayed.

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Posted by: TheLastNobody.8319

TheLastNobody.8319

I’ll throw in my 2 cents. Dangerously long post incoming captain! Man your stations!


Deathshroud is the ONLY DEFENSIVE MECHANIC WE HAVE that can be accessed reliably. We do not have vigor, stealth, stances that make us invulnerable to certain damage sources, mobility, stability, blocks, good sustain, or heal abilities other than of course, consume conditions. Now, what we do have are conditions such as weakness, blind, cripple, chill, and fear. These should help to compensate for our lack of boons (barring protection which we can get from spectral armor, spectral wall, and adept trait in blood magic for whenever we cast a well) however, these conditions can be easily cleansed by other classes, or even just outright ignored.

Our sustain, which we should have a ton of considering we have a whole trait line dedicated to it with bloodmagic, is terrible. It is balanced around optimal scenarios, such as hitting 5 people with an AoE from our weapons, or if you take a grandmaster trait, from wells. This COULD equal to about 500 health a second if you hit 5 enemies with the previously mentioned AoE, 1000 if you take the grandmaster trait allowing wells to siphon. Again, COULD, but how often do you see people huddled close together and standing in one single spot when there is a giant red circle around them telling them to GTFO? That’s just with wells btw, marks are a different story as all of them, apart from mark of blood with a cooldown of 6 seconds, have cooldowns of 15+ seconds.

Also, the entirety of the blood magic line is negated if you enter deathshroud, as deathshroud blocks any and all healing! Not to mention if you are running full wells, you are have only 1 single stun breaker, meaning you are open season for any person running some sort of CC, such as I don’t know, Hambow warriors, engies, mesmers, probably leaving out a few others but you get my point. Also, almost forgot the sustained mobile AoE we have on warhorn number 5, but that is pretty much only in the immediate area around you, so a quick teleport, leap, knockback, launch or sprint away, and you are safe because we necros have no ways to truly stick to you.

While we are in deathshroud we have access to only 5 abilities, 1 is a projectile and our primary way to deal damage, 2 is a teleport requiring a projectile which has heavy tracking but is slower than my cryogenicly frozen grandmother to hit, 3 is an instant one target fear, 4 is a channeled AoE skill which lets us regen our lifeforce, and 5 is an over time AoE condition application into burst damage and 1.5 seconds of immobilization. That’s it, we don’t have access to our utilities, most importantly stunbreakers, nor access to condition removal, and still no stability. We can’t even see our dang utility cooldowns! Also, all healing is wasted on us, so we gain no benefit from regeneration, and once bursted and CC’d out of our fragile dark green shell, are left defenseless.

Finally, let’s not forget power necros, who get most of their damage from 1 in deathshroud! So now they have to get into close combat using Dagger/Warhorn, to get life force, Axe 2 which puts them into a long channel and can easily just be outrun, blow spectral armor, which is probably our best defensive tool, blow up wurm which is our only (highly telegraphed and time consuming) teleport, use spectral walk, which is again a highly valuable stun breaker, spectral grasp…there are a few more but again, you get the idea. Pretty much power necros will now have to dedicate their entire build to getting ANY life force for a fight. Yay easy targets! -_-

And just to touch on this point as someone else mentioned it, yes warriors have a similar mechanic with adrenaline, similar being in that both are bars needing to be filled. Key difference though is that adrenaline is gained passively just from using a warrior’s skills, PLUS the warrior has skills that give him even more adrenaline or instantly fill the bar! It’s not like they have to time skills to get adrenaline, they just get it!

That’s my post! Dear lord it’s longer than I thought it would be…yeah sorry about that um, I’ll send you an internet cookie.

tl/dr version: Necros are now bigger sitting ducks than ever before because without that trick, they don’t have access to deathshroud, which is the reason they don’t have many defensive tools in the first place, cause second health bar op!

A knight in shining armor is a man who never had his metal truly tested.

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Posted by: TheLastNobody.8319

TheLastNobody.8319

Eh, at the most it could allow for an interesting discussion from others. At the worst, I wasted 15 to 20 minutes of my life that I can get back if I use my time machine.

A knight in shining armor is a man who never had his metal truly tested.

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Posted by: GreyWraith.8394

GreyWraith.8394

People just need to stop comparing Lifeforce and Adrenaline regardless of which side of this argument they are on. The mechanics are not comparable.

End of the Dream by Evanescence
unofficial theme song of the Nightmare Court

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Posted by: Ezeriel.9574

Ezeriel.9574

Just one more reason, for people playing necro, to NEVER rely on deathshroud.

…on a related note, Terror builds are basically unaffected by this, because Terror has, and will always be, the only viable necro build.

The only way to play the engineer is to exploit it.
Playing the engineer “as intended” is simply not viable.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Just one more reason, for people playing necro, to NEVER rely on deathshroud.

…on a related note, Terror builds are basically unaffected by this, because Terror has, and will always be, the only viable necro build.

Terror builds are most affected. They don’t have access to Doom at the start and the build has lousy life force generation.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

tl/dr version: Necros are now bigger sitting ducks than ever before because without that trick, they don’t have access to deathshroud, which is the reason they don’t have many defensive tools in the first place, cause second health bar op!

So I played my necro all night last night. I have to say, if you feel like a sitting duck, I think the problems is how you play, not the profession.

J Terror builds are basically unaffected by this, because Terror has, and will always be, the only viable necro build.

I don’t think viable means what you think it means. I had very great success with a power build all night last night.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

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Posted by: Flumek.9043

Flumek.9043

Just one more reason, for people playing necro, to NEVER rely on deathshroud.

…on a related note, Terror builds are basically unaffected by this, because Terror has, and will always be, the only viable necro build.

?
You shot in the wrong direction, condi is most affected as it has terrible life force capabilities.

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Posted by: SpellOfIniquity.1780

SpellOfIniquity.1780

Lol. We need to start matches with a minimum of 20% LF. Starting with 0 is not at all fair. We can still do damage without Life Force but it’s so central to our survival and burst that we start off basically a sitting duck. If I go for close point and someone comes to attack me my chances of winning go down significantly just because I have 0 Life Force which means I have no way to mitigate damage other than 2 dodges and no way to initiate bursts. Yes, Warrior’s also start with 0 of their profession specific mechanic but it’s much easier to gain and they don’t have to rely on a clunky AA for it to fill up. They can use any weapon they please to gain Adrenaline while Necromancers need to use staff.

I understand fully that they want us to work for it but it just doesn’t seem fair to me how vulnerable we are when we start matches. Necro’s are the first to get focused, we have few ways to mitigate damage other than Deathshroud, few ways to gain stability when we are focused other than Deathshroud and few ways to initiate bursts other than Deathshroud. We’re just too heavily crippled without it and I refused to believe it’s fair…

I know that in WvW when I’m roaming I won’t get in to a fight if I have no Life Force. 20% minimum or there’s a much higher chance I’ll be killed. I’m almost inclined to compare it to a Thief and Revealed. What if a Thief had to start every match in PvP with 30 seconds of revealed? They get a lot of bonuses from stealth, it’s their way of initiating bursts, regaining health, going defensive, etc. Without it they can still fight and survive but the odds of them winning without it is significantly lower unless they’re S/D.

Necromancer, Ranger, Warrior, Engineer
Champion: Phantom, Hunter, Legionnaire, Genius
WvW rank: Diamond Colonel | Maguuma

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Posted by: leman.7682

leman.7682

tl/dr version: Necros are now bigger sitting ducks than ever before because without that trick, they don’t have access to deathshroud, which is the reason they don’t have many defensive tools in the first place, cause second health bar op!

So I played my necro all night last night. I have to say, if you feel like a sitting duck, I think the problems is how you play, not the profession.

<Hot-join experience alert>

Even my dog can survive in hotjoin/unranked/top1000.

Leman

(edited by leman.7682)

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Posted by: coglin.1867

coglin.1867

tl/dr version: Necros are now bigger sitting ducks than ever before because without that trick, they don’t have access to deathshroud, which is the reason they don’t have many defensive tools in the first place, cause second health bar op!

So I played my necro all night last night. I have to say, if you feel like a sitting duck, I think the problems is how you play, not the profession.

<Hot-join experience alert>

Even my dog can survive in hotjoin/unranked/top1000.

Hmm, interesting. When your argument is weak enough that you have to make inaccurate accusations. I was playing on a premade team, in ranked. Necro, Ele, Engineer, Guardian, Warrior, for about 3 hours off and on. Some people had to log so the next 2 hours were Necro, Ele, Ranger, Guardian, thief.

By the way, I have seen no evidence that you or your dog can survive at all. Anyone can make uninformed accusations then claim they can do as well or better, but I do not see you providing any evidence.

I on the other hand was sharing my opinion based on my experience. I do not PvP a great deal on my necro (maybe 300ish hours worth), although I do WvW on my necro a fair bit. You do not have to like my opinion, but it is mine and I am sharing it as my view on the discussion.

A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

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Posted by: Flumek.9043

Flumek.9043

I played today always sacrificing the wurm on start on match. It is the current best patch over the broken mechanic.

I dont know if i would recommend it on power builds, ezpecialy any non 2x stunbreak.

  • Is it still at all possible to push far with no swiftnes + no life force / -1x stunbreak and escape teleport ?

The first and early engagement is soo important and im seeing trouble with it

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Posted by: robertul.3679

robertul.3679

I played today always sacrificing the wurm on start on match. It is the current best patch over the broken mechanic.

I dont know if i would recommend it on power builds, ezpecialy any non 2x stunbreak.

  • Is it still at all possible to push far with no swiftnes + no life force / -1x stunbreak and escape teleport ?

The first and early engagement is soo important and im seeing trouble with it

Power necro generates life force so fast it’s irrelevant. Only terror has a bigger ramp up time.

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Posted by: TheBlackLeech.9360

TheBlackLeech.9360

…so what is this nerf?

I’m not understanding what happened.

I used to play power necro in spvp…. what’s changed?

Edit:
So I watched the China v NA tourney and the nerf is clearly about summoning minions before the match starts to build up DS…. and you can’t do it any more.

As someone who played power necro in spvp and tpvp, i can say that I never once did this…. and I welcome its change.

You build up DS insanely fast with Axe 2 or dagger autos anyway.

If players were somehow relying on this to gain an advantage, it is a minor one and good players will get along just fine without it.

(edited by TheBlackLeech.9360)

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Posted by: HeadCrowned.6834

HeadCrowned.6834

…so what is this nerf?

I’m not understanding what happened.

I used to play power necro in spvp…. what’s changed?

Edit:
So I watched the China v NA tourney and the nerf is clearly about summoning minions before the match starts to build up DS…. and you can’t do it any more.

As someone who played power necro in spvp and tpvp, i can say that I never once did this…. and I welcome its change.

You build up DS insanely fast with Axe 2 or dagger autos anyway.

If players were somehow relying on this to gain an advantage, it is a minor one and good players will get along just fine without it.

Necro’s were able to use some utility skills to build up some Life force before the match started (such as using minions, and then replacing the minions with your wanted utilities before countdown reached 0). Now, this is not possible anymore and we have to start with 0% LF. For a condi necro especially this is a pretty big nerf.

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Posted by: TheBlackLeech.9360

TheBlackLeech.9360

…so what is this nerf?

I’m not understanding what happened.

I used to play power necro in spvp…. what’s changed?

Edit:
So I watched the China v NA tourney and the nerf is clearly about summoning minions before the match starts to build up DS…. and you can’t do it any more.

As someone who played power necro in spvp and tpvp, i can say that I never once did this…. and I welcome its change.

You build up DS insanely fast with Axe 2 or dagger autos anyway.

If players were somehow relying on this to gain an advantage, it is a minor one and good players will get along just fine without it.

Necro’s were able to use some utility skills to build up some Life force before the match started (such as using minions, and then replacing the minions with your wanted utilities before countdown reached 0). Now, this is not possible anymore and we have to start with 0% LF. For a condi necro especially this is a pretty big nerf.

Terrormancer was op anyway, and if this is the route Anet decided to go about a nerf…. you should be happy.

the build is still more than viable…. its just that you won’t have a pillowy death shroud cloud to ride into (your first) battle on.

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Posted by: HeadCrowned.6834

HeadCrowned.6834

’’OP’’ thrown around I see like the old days. If it was, everyone would use it. WTS finals; 1 necro. Nuff said.

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Posted by: GoogleBrandon.5073

GoogleBrandon.5073

’’OP’’ thrown around I see like the old days. If it was, everyone would use it. WTS finals; 1 necro. Nuff said.

It is a pointless discussion anyway…

Deathshroud is so incredibly hard to balance and the class is so incredibly “Anti-Enemy” that people will always complain about it…

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Posted by: Flumek.9043

Flumek.9043

Terrormancer was op anyway, and if this is the route Anet decided to go about a nerf…. you should be happy.

the build is still more than viable…. its just that you won’t have a pillowy death shroud cloud to ride into (your first) battle on.

The condi teror necro every second bad and almost no good player is complaining about – had abysmall life force generation.

There is no “pillow” its just, thief jumps u first fight → zero LF → no fear → respawn → repeat cz u lose 23% ds on respawn.

As much as i like power necro – i play it 80% of time – i think each class deserves a chance to at least get into a team with a good build – not “hello , im a necro , plz 2 ele carry me”.

And it was loooong problem since 2 years, the minion only were a bandaid over it. Hope that grouch addressed the asain necro player, the thing wont get overlooked by balance team.

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Posted by: DarkMezmer.5198

DarkMezmer.5198

Really question why Anet didn’t just put life force generation on all the necros AAs. Even a 1% generation for each of the scepters autos would help to solve some of the condi specs issues.

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Posted by: NeXeD.3042

NeXeD.3042

’’OP’’ thrown around I see like the old days. If it was, everyone would use it. WTS finals; 1 necro. Nuff said.

What necro?

Attention Moderators I am not
S P E E D Starr #0 Necro NA or
I Am NeXeD awful d/D ele NA

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Posted by: GoogleBrandon.5073

GoogleBrandon.5073

’’OP’’ thrown around I see like the old days. If it was, everyone would use it. WTS finals; 1 necro. Nuff said.

What necro?

China had a Necro…

It was on Team Sala iirc

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Posted by: NeXeD.3042

NeXeD.3042

’’OP’’ thrown around I see like the old days. If it was, everyone would use it. WTS finals; 1 necro. Nuff said.

What necro?

China had a Necro…

It was on Team Sala iirc

I wasn’t able to watch the Chinese games only saw the NA EU final.

Attention Moderators I am not
S P E E D Starr #0 Necro NA or
I Am NeXeD awful d/D ele NA

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Posted by: GoogleBrandon.5073

GoogleBrandon.5073

’’OP’’ thrown around I see like the old days. If it was, everyone would use it. WTS finals; 1 necro. Nuff said.

What necro?

China had a Necro…

It was on Team Sala iirc

I wasn’t able to watch the Chinese games only saw the NA EU final.

Ah…

No worries, apparently the excitement came from the finals, and the enjoyment of the stream from Jeb and Chronik – so you got the best you can get

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Posted by: HeadCrowned.6834

HeadCrowned.6834

Yeh from the Chinese team I meant. Although you could have counted Nos in probably, because he couldnt participate due to some RL things. Just in general: not many top tier necro’s.

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

Why are people comparing necro to warrior? Warrior doesnt have their defensive mechanics disabled for a fifth of the match. Thats what death shroud is primarily, a defensive mechanic. People forget this too easily. Ohh but Nate, powermancer DS111 so much damage pls nerf. What, you want us to rely on axe 2, staff auto, and dagger auto?

Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE