The issue: Attacking from stealth does not reveal you unless you do actual damage to the target, no penalty for auto attacking a blocking/evading/invulnerable/blinding enemy.
Every stealth skill stealths you for at least 3 seconds (4 if traited) this is more than enough time to burn through most blocks/evades/invuls etc which usually have significantly longer cooldowns than stealth skills. In most situations this results in guaranteed damage to the target. The most common situation is where a ~permanent stealth thief keeps backstabbing you for potential 6-8k dmg until it goes through.
Suggested balance change: Make any blocked/evaded/blinded/invul etc attack reduce the remaining stealth duration by 0.5-1 second.
I think this change would force players to keep an eye on your target and promote skillful play opposed to mindlessly spamming attacks while in stealth.
Or thiefs would never be able to land a backstab ever is the more likely outcome. Many classes easily counter with a patient activation of block skills, aoe blinds, invulns, etc or at the very least force a face stab instead while dishing out their own DPS.
Hitting a backstab does not win them the fight, it is more like missing one loses them the fight the majority of the time.
Or thiefs would never be able to land a backstab ever is the more likely outcome. Many classes easily counter with a patient activation of block skills, aoe blinds, invulns, etc
Yes you can counter by using defense skills, this was not the point… the point was to promote skillful play by making the attacker to observe and think what the opponent is doing instead of mindlessly attacking. Saying “never be able to land a backstab ever” because of an 1 sec stealth reduction on counter just seems ridiculous to me.
Or thiefs would never be able to land a backstab ever is the more likely outcome. Many classes easily counter with a patient activation of block skills, aoe blinds, invulns, etc
Yes you can counter by using defense skills, this was not the point… the point was to promote skillful play by making the attacker to observe and think what the opponent is doing instead of mindlessly attacking. Saying “never be able to land a backstab ever” because of an 1 sec stealth reduction on counter just seems ridiculous to me.
then i think any other class should have their immunity/invul/regen/protection/stability etc. reduced for each swing they do; also the more swings they do w/o landing the hit the less dmg they should do over time just to be fair
What is the thief supposed to do in this situation if the target activates a blind or block? You say you want skillful play but offer nothing they can do in this situation besides stand around til stealth wears off and try it again
What is the thief supposed to do in this situation if the target activates a blind or block? You say you want skillful play but offer nothing they can do in this situation besides stand around til stealth wears off and try it again
Aegis/blind: hit away since will take only 1s of your stealth duration away which is usually 3-4 seconds
Invuls/shield blocks/multiple second distortion: this is where the skill aspect comes to play … classes other than the thief if they do not react to these will get their attack skills on cooldown (skills #2-5) and completely wasted but the thief can just spam auto attack without no penalty. Here thieves should obviously wait like all the other classes… the suggested change would imo encourage this.
Obviously any attack should kick the thief out of stealth and give him the revealed debuff. It shouldn’t matter whether it gets blocked or evaded. You attack, so you reveal yourself.
Obviously any attack should kick the thief out of stealth and give him the revealed debuff. It shouldn’t matter whether it gets blocked or evaded. You attack, so you reveal yourself.
why don’t you just ask for i-win-button which kills any thief in area
What is the thief supposed to do in this situation if the target activates a blind or block? You say you want skillful play but offer nothing they can do in this situation besides stand around til stealth wears off and try it again
Aegis/blind: hit away since will take only 1s of your stealth duration away which is usually 3-4 seconds
Invuls/shield blocks/multiple second distortion: this is where the skill aspect comes to play … classes other than the thief if they do not react to these will get their attack skills on cooldown (skills #2-5) and completely wasted but the thief can just spam auto attack without no penalty. Here thieves should obviously wait like all the other classes… the suggested change would imo encourage this.
no, they don’t have to wait, they can still spam AA… scepter necro for example, all stuff on CD? np, just spam scepter AA and kill ppl with it alone because of way too powerful traits (i am sadly no kidding, tried it myself…. disgusting)
warrior AA is also very strong
if this changes were implemented, majority of thieves would quit and few that are still there would play p/d and shortbow…. greaaaat idea.. no ty
honestly, all of you, go roll a thief, join soloq and try to not attack while bein in stealth unless you get a hit
I disagree with evaded : if it’s evaded, nop it should not apply revealed.
Same for blind, there’s already, it would be too powerful.
Why not for invulnerable.
But, above all, definitely agree 100% for block.
And how many of you are able to recognize a block skill so fast that you can cancel your first attack before it lands, not even going to mention asura(oops) or the million random sources of aegis that could apply at any given instant in a team fight.
What is the thief supposed to do in this situation if the target activates a blind or block? You say you want skillful play but offer nothing they can do in this situation besides stand around til stealth wears off and try it again
why did they make blocked attacks count towards AOE cap?
then i think any other class should have their immunity/invul/regen/protection/stability etc. reduced for each swing they do; also the more swings they do w/o landing the hit the less dmg they should do over time just to be fair
did this make sense to anyone?
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Is a whole second really that fair? Both the Melee stealth skills are heavily dependent on positioning, so in a practical situation one can assume the thief will have to position him/herself which will eat up time. Maybe have unsuccessful attempts cost 500 ms instead? Or up base stealth duration to kitten (First one’s way less likely to unbalance things imo)
then i think any other class should have their immunity/invul/regen/protection/stability etc. reduced for each swing they do; also the more swings they do w/o landing the hit the less dmg they should do over time just to be fair
What if… Certain skills did not reveal the thief, make it a mechanic or a bonus to specific skills. Everything else yeah have it reveal. then atleast you keep some key attacks, but adds the risk for poor play.
Just make sure it’s obvious in the tool tip when a skill will be leanient with stealth.
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~” “Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
The reals question is most games with stealth are “when you attack you reveal” so why is it a bad idea in this game?
I’m not sure if I believe such a thing would kill the class. I’m confident the better thieves will adapt and succeed… Others who rely on it will get out played tho. A good thief waits for a proper opening anyways even as it is now.
Also I think it would open up other compromise buffs such as damage vs armor like scaling with targets toughness. The idea is to find a balance with something given you give something up. When you lose something you get something (aslong as it’s not imba to begin with)
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~” “Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
What is the thief supposed to do in this situation if the target activates a blind or block? You say you want skillful play but offer nothing they can do in this situation besides stand around til stealth wears off and try it again
This is the big problem I have with the thief mindset. ‘Why should any of my attacks have an opportunity cost?’. Currently a thief can enter stealth, whiff backstab three times, regain all the initiative lost from CnD and just try again immediately (6 initiative cost, 2 regained on stealth, 4 seconds of standard regen). Any other class that whiffs an attack, for any reason (blinded, blocked, invul, latency, etc.) has to pay the full opportunity cost for that attack, usually at least 30s cooldown for the most valuable attacks.
Thief should have opportunity costs on its most valuable skills. Stealth is already a large tactical advantage, preventing players from seeing your actions as is normally the case for every other class, and also grants large mechanical advantages through traits such as healing and burst damage. Having no true opportunity cost in addition to all this makes it so obviously the most powerful effect a thief can focus on, close to mandatory for success.
Any other class that whiffs an attack, for any reason (blinded, blocked, invul, latency, etc.) has to pay the full opportunity cost for that attack, usually at least 30s cooldown for the most valuable attacks.
Exactly, and since it’s a very high damage attack there definitely should be at least some opportunity cost. Every skilled player on other classes will stop using their attack skills (#2-5) for example on a warrior using shield stance because of cooldowns.
Also many post seem to have the idea of instant reveal on a failed attack, this is quite different from reducing the current stealth duration on the attacker by a small amount (0.5-1s) on a failed attack.
Tbh I have always thought it was a bit silly that I could pretty much just spam an attack mindlessly until I connected. Maybe instant reveal might be too strong? But I think the OP suggests something quite interesting.
You pay an opportunity cost for missing, and I think that this is fair. It doesn’t necessarily take you out of stealth, but I think it would encourage a bit more skillful play at the very least.
Honestly, I really think that this should have been introduced from the very beginning. I imagine people have been spoiled by how generous the stealth mechanics are right now.
Obviously any attack should kick the thief out of stealth and give him the revealed debuff. It shouldn’t matter whether it gets blocked or evaded. You attack, so you reveal yourself.
Obviously you never played a thief. Without stealth a thief has NOTHING to defend himself. We’re not warriors with high HP pools and good armor and in PVE what we can take before going down is downright pathetic.
(assuming a D/x thief who mainly focuses on backstabs) Every experienced thief user knows that if you are not able to land your stealth attack during a 1v1 against any opponent who knows his stuff it’s almost as bad as getting revealed.
When I started playing thief (so when I was very bad) I wrecked other bad players by just spamming 1 when I was stealthed.
Now I think twice before trying to backstab a skillful opponent. If they block me or evade me, they will turn their body and the following backstab will hit for 50% of the damage, dealing poor damage and getting me revealed.
This looks like a l2p issue. Try to roll a thief and spam 1 while stealthed against a decent opponent. You will literally kill yourself.
I think the devs have said in one of their live streams that having blocked or missed stealth attacks would mess up the balance so much, that they don’t want to do it or at least make that decision so lightly.
If you think about it, all someone has to do when they see a thief stealth is put up a block/ aoe blind and you stop a thief every time, seeing is that most block and blind skills will last longer then the thief will be in stealth for. If people think that “mindlessly attacking” is bad, mindless defence would be worst. I know I would never want to fight a guardian ever again.
The issue: Attacking from stealth does not reveal you unless you do actual damage to the target, no penalty for auto attacking a blocking/evading/invulnerable/blinding enemy.
Every stealth skill stealths you for at least 3 seconds (4 if traited) this is more than enough time to burn through most blocks/evades/invuls etc which usually have significantly longer cooldowns than stealth skills. In most situations this results in guaranteed damage to the target. The most common situation is where a ~permanent stealth thief keeps backstabbing you for potential 6-8k dmg until it goes through.
Suggested balance change: Make any blocked/evaded/blinded/invul etc attack reduce the remaining stealth duration by 0.5-1 second.
I think this change would force players to keep an eye on your target and promote skillful play opposed to mindlessly spamming attacks while in stealth.
If you think about it, all someone has to do when they see a thief stealth is put up a block/ aoe blind and you stop a thief every time, seeing is that most block and blind skills will last longer then the thief will be in stealth for. If people think that “mindlessly attacking” is bad, mindless defence would be worst. I know I would never want to fight a guardian ever again.
This is just wrong… how long does it take for a thief to aa with backstab, 0.5s / attack? So that’s how much will aegis/blind give you, and since the stealth duration is usually 3-4 seconds that doesn’t count for much. Stuff like shield stance or distortion or invulnerability have up to 90s of cooldown, other classes get heavily punished if they waste their abilities attacking a target that is shielded, why not the thief too?
This “mindless defence” you’re talking about doesn’t rly exist in the game, even equally skilled bunkers will go down when the defensive cooldowns are off.
Yes I’ve been beaten by thieves multiple times, I’ve also killed at least as many by playing pvp and wvw since launch. I also have a thief (my other lvl 80 char). I’m did not make this thread cause I was beat up by a thief but because of the reasons I gave in the previous posts.
If you think about it, all someone has to do when they see a thief stealth is put up a block/ aoe blind and you stop a thief every time, seeing is that most block and blind skills will last longer then the thief will be in stealth for. If people think that “mindlessly attacking” is bad, mindless defence would be worst. I know I would never want to fight a guardian ever again.
This is just wrong… how long does it take for a thief to aa with backstab, 0.5s / attack? So that’s how much will aegis/blind give you, and since the stealth duration is usually 3-4 seconds that doesn’t count for much. Stuff like shield stance or distortion or invulnerability have up to 90s of cooldown, other classes get heavily punished if they waste their abilities attacking a target that is shielded, why not the thief too?
This “mindless defence” you’re talking about doesn’t rly exist in the game, even equally skilled bunkers will go down when the defensive cooldowns are off.
Yes I’ve been beaten by thieves multiple times, I’ve also killed at least as many by playing pvp and wvw since launch. I also have a thief (my other lvl 80 char). I’m did not make this thread cause I was beat up by a thief but because of the reasons I gave in the previous posts.
Doesn’t matter what the cool down of the defence skill would be, if it can reveal a thief, it has done it’s job and you can proceed to smash the defenceless target.
A thief won’t backstab as soon as it enters stealth, (unless it a cnd>Bs combo, but you can see that coming more or less), they would need time to get into position, enough time for anyone to react.
Steath needs a counter. Currently it doesn’t have one. If you attack something from stealth, it should reveal you regardless if it does damage or not.
It does have plenty, Aoe, necro sigils, CC like the #4 hammer warrior, even moving away from the thief while spamming dodges/teleport will work since the stealth will eventually end.
If the stealth would actually work like you wanted the thief would be screwed up since many times people get very long time of aegis or blocks and a revealed applied in the middle of a fight without getting any damage in return would screw the thief up.
I’m not saying it wouldn’t be more skillfull, but it just wouldn’t be balanced.
My opinion on this matter is that if the attack from stealth is blocked, the thief should be given reveal. Because the thief attacked, hit the target, but the target blocked. Same goes for invulnerability. I don’t think they should be revealed if the target evades or the attack misses because obviously…the thief doesn’t actually hit anything,
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then i think any other class should have their immunity/invul/regen/protection/stability etc. reduced for each swing they do; also the more swings they do w/o landing the hit the less dmg they should do over time just to be fair
did this make sense to anyone?
exactly my point
OP suggestion makes as much sense…aka none
ALL other class skills go on FULL cool down if they miss.
They are even punished if they are interrupted while using a skill.
The thief skills are the only ones in the game that are not punished for missing.
then i think any other class should have their immunity/invul/regen/protection/stability etc. reduced for each swing they do; also the more swings they do w/o landing the hit the less dmg they should do over time just to be fair
did this make sense to anyone?
exactly my point
OP suggestion makes as much sense…aka none
ALL other class skills go on FULL cool down if they miss.
They are even punished if they are interrupted while using a skill.
The thief skills are the only ones in the game that are not punished for missing.
They should be.
Not a single class in this game is punished for spamming #1 attack.
If you are talking about 2#~5# than thieves also waste initiative on miss. And they can also be interrupted, even on stealth.
ALL other class skills go on FULL cool down if they miss.
They are even punished if they are interrupted while using a skill.
The thief skills are the only ones in the game that are not punished for missing.
They should be.
You miss the fact that thief skills are already balanced around the fact they are spammable. They generally have the lowest damage coeficients in the game and very short duration conditions and interrupts.
Also other classes don’t have a single cooldown covering both weaponsets like thieves do. A thief without initiative can only autoattack while another class would just switch up to their secondary weaponset and have acces to another full rotation.
I’m pretty surprised ppl are still asking for these kneejerk nerfs considering thief is barely holding onto to the current meta as it is. Also i love how condi bombing necros and engies, hambow warrs (even after the last nerf to this build it’s still pretty powerful and popular…and brainless) insane bunker guards, etc aren’t a problem but thieves somehow are…..yeah sure guys.
If the OP’s suggestion was implemented there would be a negative impact on the viability of stealth as people have suggested.
1. Blind would completely remove the offensive potential of stealth. Defensive potential would be removed if attacks were attempted.
2. Aegis would completely remove the offensive potential of stealth. Defensive potential would be removed if attacks were attempted.
3. Evades would remove the offensive potenial of stealth if evaded. Defensive potential would be removed if attacks were attempted.
Duration scaling for Offensive Stealth Potential negation of the below items is as follows:
3 second stealth | 1, 2, 3 second durations 33%, 67%, 100% offensive stealth immunity
4 second stealth | 1, 2, 3, 4 second durations 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% offensive stealth immunity
The above duration scaling is already applicable to the follow (current defensive stealth counters):
Invulnerability (i.e. Obsidian Flesh)
Stealth (i.e. The Prestige)
Duration Blocks (i.e. Shield Stance)
Duration Evade (i.e. Blurred Frenzy)
Position Changing (i.e. Blink, dodge)
The above are some of the defensive counters to stealth that currently exist, offensive counters are AoE. The defensive counters currently remove most of the offensive potential of stealth, they would additionally remove the defensive potential that comes with being unseen if attacks were attempted.
Given everything above, the question is how would you compensate the Theif and to a much lesser extent the Mesmer for these changes to stealth offensively and defensively. Because it’s a significant straight nerf.
Sylvari Elementalist – Mystree Duskbloom (Lv 80)
Norn Guardian – Aurora Lustyr (Lv 80)
Mia A Shadows Glow – Human Thief (Lv 80)
Pointless since thief entire survival is based on stealth. Add some other way of survival and thieves will stop going into stealth so much.
This is a example of the problem with gw2, that the element of risk/punishment is removed.
Stealth should absolutely be removed if thief/mesmer swings at the target when they have aegis or the target evades, or the thief/mesmer has blind on them. It just means you just got counter played and thus you are experiencing punishment.
As it stands now, all that happens is a thief will have backstab blocked/evaded or miss it and they will just do it again and again until it lands. Risk vs reward raises the skill floor of pvp. Just having rewards with no risks only promotes non intelligent game play.
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1. Blind would completely remove the offensive potential of stealth. Defensive potential would be removed if attacks were attempted.
2. Aegis would completely remove the offensive potential of stealth. Defensive potential would be removed if attacks were attempted
How does a suggested minimum 0.5s reduction completely remove offensive potential? Aegis and blinds arent spammable….
And yes 3s blocking/invul skills do remove the offensive potential… During that time you just do not attack like all the other classes
And yes, none of the other classes arent punished for aa reveal but the difference is up to 8k of damage…. Other classes mostly use #2 to #5 which they are punished for
1. Blind would completely remove the offensive potential of stealth. Defensive potential would be removed if attacks were attempted.
2. Aegis would completely remove the offensive potential of stealth. Defensive potential would be removed if attacks were attempted
How does a suggested minimum 0.5s reduction completely remove offensive potential? Aegis and blinds arent spammable….
And yes 3s blocking/invul skills do remove the offensive potential… During that time you just do not attack like all the other classes
And yes, none of the other classes arent punished for aa reveal but the difference is up to 8k of damage…. Other classes mostly use #2 to #5 which they are punished for
It often takes a second or two to get into position to land side/back strikes.
Activation time and after cast comes into play.
Aegis is used by players as an indicator to reposition themselves via dodge/skills.
Being blind and entering stealth automatically means you’re stealth duration is already reduced offensively.
The most obvious example of this being a straight nerf to a Thief is in a Thief vs DPS Guardian scenario.
The guardian has a bunch of Aegis/Blinds. You can expect to deal with anywhere from 1-3 blinds/blocks in this situtation. With a 0.5-1 second impact to stealth duration you’re talking about 0.5-3 seconds of stealth reduciton with no opportunity to use your offensive potential, meaning if you enter stealth vs a DPS guardian you may as well just get away from him because you’ll just be taking damage without the opportunity to deal it.
Any profession can present this problem to thieves via evades, blinds, blocks, etc. The suggestion will cripple the offensive capacity of stealth so much that people won’t see it worth the risk of using it offensively.
I still have an open question as to how the Thief would be equally compensated for a significant straight nerf like this.
Sylvari Elementalist – Mystree Duskbloom (Lv 80)
Norn Guardian – Aurora Lustyr (Lv 80)
Mia A Shadows Glow – Human Thief (Lv 80)
I still have an open question as to how the Thief would be equally compensated for a significant straight nerf like this.
Think before you backstab. If you know a class has access to blinds and aegis, then you are to bait them into using it and then backstab. Is that really difficult?
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I still have an open question as to how the Thief would be equally compensated for a significant straight nerf like this.
Think before you backstab. If you know a class has access to blinds and aegis, then you are to bait them into using it and then backstab. Is that really difficult?
How is a thief going to apply enough pressure to a guardian/engi/necro/warrior/ranger to “bait” him into activating his skills before even attempting a backstab? I’m sorry but are you playing the same game? Most thiefs get crushed by guardians and engies even without this suggested nerf.
ITT: Thieves forgetting that they have shadowsteps, evades, blind spam as other defenses. A thief outside of stealth is hardly defenseless. Lets not forget the heartseeker spam to run away.
I swear, its like this in every MMO with this class archetype. If they can’t kill everything with impunity and get away with it scott free, then its unbalanced and everyone needs to be nerfed or their class needs to be buffed. Classes like this have always promoted unintelligent game play.
Just throwing this out there… What if reveal was only one or two seconds? (To avoid spam) a lot of people say “thief needs stealth if we lose it we have nothing” well… What about more stealth?
I think the idea of a thief having nothing is a fallacy, because at the very least they can escape and doge major attacks like everyone else. But I don’t think free shots are a fair balance point when you already have to predict them.
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~” “Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
I swear, its like this in every MMO with this class archetype. If they can’t kill everything with impunity and get away with it scott free, then its unbalanced and everyone needs to be nerfed or their class needs to be buffed. Classes like this have always promoted unintelligent game play.
More like every MMo with this class. People never learn how to counter it.
I swear, its like this in every MMO with this class archetype. If they can’t kill everything with impunity and get away with it scott free, then its unbalanced and everyone needs to be nerfed or their class needs to be buffed. Classes like this have always promoted unintelligent game play.
More like every MMo with this class. People never learn how to counter it.
Because there isn’t one. Spam aoe and hope that the character in stealth is dumb enough to sit in the aoe isn’t a counter.
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I swear, its like this in every MMO with this class archetype. If they can’t kill everything with impunity and get away with it scott free, then its unbalanced and everyone needs to be nerfed or their class needs to be buffed. Classes like this have always promoted unintelligent game play.
More like every MMo with this class. People never learn how to counter it.
Because there isn’t one. Spam aoe and hope that the character in stealth is dumb enough to sit in the aoe isn’t a counter.
Funny enough, 90% of the Thiefs in this game would actually be killed if you did that.
Unless you really believe we can run back to Lion Arch, drink a tea, get back to the mists and backstab you under 4 seconds.
I swear, its like this in every MMO with this class archetype. If they can’t kill everything with impunity and get away with it scott free, then its unbalanced and everyone needs to be nerfed or their class needs to be buffed. Classes like this have always promoted unintelligent game play.
More like every MMo with this class. People never learn how to counter it.
Because there isn’t one. Spam aoe and hope that the character in stealth is dumb enough to sit in the aoe isn’t a counter.
There is plenty of counters to stealth. The issue is not with stealth mechanics, the issue is with pve spoiling players so they get used to fight NPC toe to toe and mash their 1,2,3,4,5 and see target drop so they expect the same from fight vs thief, except stealth requires you to actually use some brain and predict what thief will do next or where he would go. Most people are also too lazy to even bother learning how to do it.