Guild Wars 2

I wanted to consolidate the huge array of complaints about thieves into a thread that discusses the source of the problem—thieves are simply too effective as a class, causing enormous problems when attempting to scale their power level.

The thief single handedly excludes all other professions from glass based builds

Thieves in the current meta are, in my opinion, in a pretty good spot. Berserker thief vs soldier warrior feels like something of a slog for the thief, but left alone neither has an overwhelming advantage.

Compare this to a “non-meta” matchup such as berserk thief vs berserk ranger and you find there is literally nothing the ranger can do to outside of banking on their opponents total ignorance of the ranger moveset to come out ahead. At the same time, non-glass(non meta) thieves are perceived as almost totally worthless in the majority of situations.

If we want a meta where players have to consider whether or not the opposing team runs a thief, and alter their builds accordingly, then the current state of affairs is fine. However this is not what I think players are asking for—and GW2 is not set up for the type of “pick-counter pick” matches we see in MOBAs.

The thief profession has been balanced around glass builds in a defensive meta, while only becoming more effective the lower their opponents armor is

Making thieves less effective versus low defense builds while maintaining effectiveness against armored opponents should be the goal of balance in the future. Trying to target specific abilities of the class (stealth, backstab, shadowsteps, mug) which are characteristic of this flaw has only led to increasingly frustrated attempts to create an impossible equilibrium.

Anet has hinted in the past that they are thinking about revising base damages on the thief’s attacks so they can move them away from burst skills for damage and toward auto attacking for damage (which makes them more vulnerable while DPSing), and this could be one solution; but I feel this could ruin what makes thieves interesting.

Personally I think the best bet, if technically possible, would be to give certain thief attacks (backstab, etc) an element of armor penetration(ie. using a weighted armor value instead of the targets true armor value) so that their power can be toned down across the board without thieves becoming totally useless in certain matchups.

lol… this is so MASSIVE ill just bother reminding that the only issue people have right now is with the dagger pistol meta backstab or the sword/dagger meta wich both have wonderfull nuking level. These builds both are very glassy but deals wonderfull damage… thats the only reason they good in the first place actualy so why nerf them?

So basically you want to reward people for playing less defensively by giving them both more offensive and defensive power against a class that relies very heavily on active defensive mechanics to be able to run a high damage build?

lel

I’m confused? Are people MORE mad at zerker thieves or condi thieves? If i start playing giver’s thief will people not be mad at me? or will they be MORE mad at that in the end?

ens.9854:

I wanted to consolidate the huge array of complaints about thieves into a thread that discusses the source of the problem—thieves are simply too effective as a class, causing enormous problems when attempting to scale their power level.

The thief single handedly excludes all other professions from glass based builds

Thieves in the current meta are, in my opinion, in a pretty good spot. Berserker thief vs soldier warrior feels like something of a slog for the thief, but left alone neither has an overwhelming advantage.

This feels…inaccurate. A Hambow warrior using soliders can make a ton of mistakes (lets say around 10-15) before they are clearly going to lose the fight. If a Zerker thief makes 2-3 mistakes, the warrior is going to win the fight (Assuming similar skill levels).

It’s not that a Zerker thief can’t win, their spec is just about 80% less forgiving.

Compare this to a “non-meta” matchup such as berserk thief vs berserk ranger and you find there is literally nothing the ranger can do to outside of banking on their opponents total ignorance of the ranger moveset to come out ahead. At the same time, non-glass(non meta) thieves are perceived as almost totally worthless in the majority of situations.

If we want a meta where players have to consider whether or not the opposing team runs a thief, and alter their builds accordingly, then the current state of affairs is fine. However this is not what I think players are asking for—and GW2 is not set up for the type of “pick-counter pick” matches we see in MOBAs.

The thief profession has been balanced around glass builds in a defensive meta, while only becoming more effective the lower their opponents armor is

Making thieves less effective versus low defense builds while maintaining effectiveness against armored opponents should be the goal of balance in the future. Trying to target specific abilities of the class (stealth, backstab, shadowsteps, mug) which are characteristic of this flaw has only led to increasingly frustrated attempts to create an impossible equilibrium.

Anet has hinted in the past that they are thinking about revising base damages on the thief’s attacks so they can move them away from burst skills for damage and toward auto attacking for damage (which makes them more vulnerable while DPSing), and this could be one solution; but I feel this could ruin what makes thieves interesting.

Personally I think the best bet, if technically possible, would be to give certain thief attacks (backstab, etc) an element of armor penetration(ie. using a weighted armor value instead of the targets true armor value) so that their power can be toned down across the board without thieves becoming totally useless in certain matchups.

I don’t think damage is the culprit here – Mesmers and Ele’s can deal similar burst to thieves at this point of the game. The real difference is the defenses – thieves rely on damage avoidance rather than damage mitigation. A GC hitting a bunker with high armor and the protection boon see’s reduced damage – that same attack against an evading thief does no damage.

Since thieves defenses are Entirely based on complete avoidance(no access to protection/stability/aegis/retal, no blocks, no immunity skills, poor regen access), they’re understandably very good at evading/blinding. Evading/blinding another GC’s big burst attack is more detrimental than said class blunting the GC thief’s damage with protection/aegis/block/regen/etc…

If the dev’s want to reduce thieves access to evades/blind, they’ll need to supplement it with immunities/blocks/protection/stability/etc just like every other class gets (although that will lead to the homogenization of classes – it’d just be easier if players learned how to time their attacks in between evades)

ryan.6217:

I’m confused? Are people MORE mad at zerker thieves or condi thieves? If i start playing giver’s thief will people not be mad at me? or will they be MORE mad at that in the end?

Neither, it’s the fact you’re playing a thief that makes people mad… dat evade and dat stealth OP…. dat damage too

The core issue is: I can’t come up to you and press F to loot you. I need to mush 1 a few times and possibly move because you move. OP

APEX PREDATOR. Yet ANet won’t even recognize it as a problem.

evilapprentice.6379:

snip

Hambow’s effectiveness vs thief is entirely based upon combustive shot or landing a miracle earthshaker; I do not think this is characteristic of the matchup as a whole.

The issue of other classes being able to deal similar damage is simply the issue of efficiency. Thieves can reliably apply damage quickly and safely escape—much moreso than a mesmer or an elementalist.

If you ever see a fight between a decent mesmer and a decent thief it becomes very apparent that half of the mesmers “escapes” are entirely futile—they are matched teleport for teleport by the thief, who doesn’t have to do anything besides press a button because target hasn’t been dropped. This is great; I love this about thief, but if the mesmer is not spamming all of their other defensive cooldowns they are nearly dead by this point… which they should not be.

Trying to arrange a situation of nerfed survivability for theives does absolutely nothing but make them obsolete—as I said in the original post, thieves are relatively balanced in the current meta—they cannot stand to lose much effectiveness.

The point is that nobody can shift the meta anywhere else because a glass cannon thief is waiting to pounce on them from out of range as soon as their dodge roll finishes.

You know why thieves only go glass? That’s their only real option… A thief bunker build brings nothing to team fights. Their condi builds are very niche and usually not helpful.

The boon strip S/d was all they had going for them for a bit. Now they are just back to gc burst… And several other classes can go glass cannon and wreck a gc thief. Mesmer being one of them.

ens.9854:

The thief single handedly excludes all other professions from glass based builds

Wrong. A mesmer GC will burst down another class faster than anyone. Plus they have better defense than a thief with stealth and clones

style.6173:

ens.9854:

The thief single handedly excludes all other professions from glass based builds

Wrong. A mesmer GC will burst down another class faster than anyone. Plus they have better defense than a thief with stealth and clones

Lol what. So much wrong. Mesmer is a great skill check because you know who are bad players by how much they complain about mesmers, their defense scales directly with your ability to not get fooled by clones.

Gonna let phantarams (team paradigms ele) post from the other thief thread educate you.

No other class can do that much raw damage with that much mobility and still bunker points 3v1 for large periods of time.

Some things that could be looked at to balance it.

1. Too much damage (I feel like this one is never brought up but the amount of raw damage an S/D thief can do is insane, and none of it is on a cooldown. Their burst and consistent damage are all the same thing, they are constantly doing both.)
2. Too much dodging
3. Lyssa runes

jportell.2197:

You know why thieves only go glass? That’s their only real option… A thief bunker build brings nothing to team fights. Their condi builds are very niche and usually not helpful.

The boon strip S/d was all they had going for them for a bit. Now they are just back to gc burst… And several other classes can go glass cannon and wreck a gc thief. Mesmer being one of them.

play power ranger and learn how much survibilitiy a thief has for a gc. and dont come with invulnerability on a 80sec basecooldown or guard.

blind is incredible powerful offensive and defensive. and i just want mention evades, stealth, teleports (ignoring position and overextend) and on some builds high vigor uptime.

@Jonathan Sharp: [k]
“The ranger class combines its own innate abilities with the skills of their pets. We’ve balanced the class around the idea that you always have a pet with you to aid in any fight. The fact that the ranger can have multiple pets allows them to combine their pets in ways that most impact the current fight. We want the Ranger to have some of the evasion enjoyed by the Thief, as well as the mobility other classes employ. The class is able to deal physical or condition damage, and it can do this in melee or at range.”[/k]

so u think http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Vigor and low access to vigor and evades on COOLDOWN is the same evasion enjoyed by the Thief? in what world are 2 pets multiple? mobility is a joke also or?

hooma.9642:

jportell.2197:

You know why thieves only go glass? That’s their only real option… A thief bunker build brings nothing to team fights. Their condi builds are very niche and usually not helpful.

The boon strip S/d was all they had going for them for a bit. Now they are just back to gc burst… And several other classes can go glass cannon and wreck a gc thief. Mesmer being one of them.

play power ranger and learn how much survibilitiy a thief has for a gc. and dont come with invulnerability on a 80sec basecooldown or guard.

blind is incredible powerful offensive and defensive. and i just want mention evades, stealth, teleports (ignoring position and overextend) and on some builds high vigor uptime.

@Jonathan Sharp: [k]
“The ranger class combines its own innate abilities with the skills of their pets. We’ve balanced the class around the idea that you always have a pet with you to aid in any fight. The fact that the ranger can have multiple pets allows them to combine their pets in ways that most impact the current fight. We want the Ranger to have some of the evasion enjoyed by the Thief, as well as the mobility other classes employ. The class is able to deal physical or condition damage, and it can do this in melee or at range.”[/k]

so u think http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Vigor and low access to vigor and evades on COOLDOWN is the same evasion enjoyed by the Thief? in what world are 2 pets multiple? mobility is a joke also or?

Ranger has other viable builds besides gc… They have trap, spirit, condi tank, bunker… Thieves have for viable builds GC d/p or GC s/d. Not what is relevant to both of those. GC GC GC… thieves have no other options for pvp. they may try venom share but you need an entire team to be built on that one concept.

ens.9854:

The thief single handedly excludes all other professions from glass based builds

Funny, I tough the reason most glass based builds were missing in PvP was because nearly everyone is playing condibunker which glass builds does poorly against due to their lack of survivability to take down in time the condibunker.

General design question: Do we want counters, or not?

I mean, I often read threads like “What is a X supposed to do against a Y”. Question is, should they be able to do something?

For example, thinking setting-wise it seems reasonable that a Thief, a character built around initiative, getting the jump and delivering early, would always be able to overcome a glass cannon character.
As such, it might not be an unfitting design goal for the class as a whole to be “anti glass cannon”. Hypothetically speaking. Ofc there’d be other such specializations, we see one in the Mesmer in a way who’s quite proficient at 1v1, but gets extremely 1-trick-pony the larger the groups get as only Glamour skills scale all the way to zerg level.

Question again is: Is this wanted?
Do we want to be able to “be” the counter to something?

@jportell
Rangers have 1 competitive build, spirits with cat bunker. That’s it.
OP I agree, thieves single handedly keep other glass builds out of the game. I think its a function of the time to kill vs defence in this game. The only viable defence for gc builds is avoidance altogether or burst before you die. Thief can combine the two, hence apex predators. It is sucky imo, would like to see MOAR DIVERSITY but this would probably entail power creep to some degree as nerfing a thief would leave it incapable of dealing with other builds in this game , cond bunkers/bunkers.

dylan.5409:

@jportell
Rangers have 1 competitive build, spirits with cat bunker. That’s it.
OP I agree, thieves single handedly keep other glass builds out of the game. I think its a function of the time to kill vs defence in this game. The only viable defence for gc builds is avoidance altogether or burst before you die. Thief can combine the two, hence apex predators. It is sucky imo, would like to see MOAR DIVERSITY but this would probably entail power creep to some degree as nerfing a thief would leave it incapable of dealing with other builds in this game , cond bunkers/bunkers.

How does thief combine evasiveness and burst? S/D has sustain not burst, S/P’s evasion is easily countered and has kitten windup (Which means it can’t really be used reactively like FS or dodge), and D/P has burst and no evasion (besides dodges of course)

jportell.2197:

hooma.9642:

jportell.2197:

You know why thieves only go glass? That’s their only real option… A thief bunker build brings nothing to team fights. Their condi builds are very niche and usually not helpful.

The boon strip S/d was all they had going for them for a bit. Now they are just back to gc burst… And several other classes can go glass cannon and wreck a gc thief. Mesmer being one of them.

play power ranger and learn how much survibilitiy a thief has for a gc. and dont come with invulnerability on a 80sec basecooldown or guard.

blind is incredible powerful offensive and defensive. and i just want mention evades, stealth, teleports (ignoring position and overextend) and on some builds high vigor uptime.

@Jonathan Sharp: [k]
“The ranger class combines its own innate abilities with the skills of their pets. We’ve balanced the class around the idea that you always have a pet with you to aid in any fight. The fact that the ranger can have multiple pets allows them to combine their pets in ways that most impact the current fight. We want the Ranger to have some of the evasion enjoyed by the Thief, as well as the mobility other classes employ. The class is able to deal physical or condition damage, and it can do this in melee or at range.”[/k]

so u think http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Vigor and low access to vigor and evades on COOLDOWN is the same evasion enjoyed by the Thief? in what world are 2 pets multiple? mobility is a joke also or?

Ranger has other viable builds besides gc… They have trap, spirit, condi tank, bunker… Thieves have for viable builds GC d/p or GC s/d. Not what is relevant to both of those. GC GC GC… thieves have no other options for pvp. they may try venom share but you need an entire team to be built on that one concept.

how makes it ranger as glascanon stronger if they can play several condibunker builds and thief only glascanon?

im pretty sure there is room for a condithief and maybe a bunker thief.. but guys like u and seizer destroy that by defending cheese like s/d. if s/d gets further nerfed in evades, well there goes your bunkercapability.

i think thief is just to good as glascanon that not enough ppl try to find other viable/ working types.

There are 3 classes currently that ensures most of the other classes don’t go Glass usually

Thieves/Warriors/Mesmer’s, all 3 can instantly kill another Glass Based Character

Thieves are probably the worst offender though of the 3, Mesmer is pretty lame, and Warrior is really nasty but you can usually see it coming.

Thieves and the ability to instant teleport/stun/c and d followed by a Backstab/Heart Seeker in under 2 seconds means there is little you can do if you’re one of those builds.

Now usually in games you could pop some cooldowns and be good to fight the “Stealther” however in this game the thief is pretty much allowed to instantly reset the fight and repeat the same thing again over and over till he wins.

This is a product of MMO’s removing the utility from the stealthers classes in past mmo’s to make up for nothing things like them removing traps/opening chests ect ect and just making them straight up high damage dealers.

The other day I took on 2 glass thieves in their camp with all npcs up for a good minute on my zerker necro. Downed one of them. Jus sayin.

Unless I am missing something this thread is s/PVP focused. Not sure why people are bringing up WvW like guy talking about giver condi thief and people talking about taking camps