Guild Wars 2

With the suggested change to put Dhuumfire on Life Blast, condition necromancers now have a very obvious problem: There is far too much emphasis on Death Shroud.

I agree that Dhuumfire is skill-less and needs retuning, but putting everything on Death Shroud could hit the class too much.

Why this is a problem

First, it means all a good player has to do to counter a necromancer is get by Death Shroud. If the Life Blast, Doom and Tainted Shackles are dodged, the necromancer’s damage is completely obliterated and, by virtue of the necromancer popping Death Shroud for damage, the necromancer’s survivability is gutted as well.

Second, necromancer will have no condition coverage outside of Death Shroud. It will need Death Shroud for burning, terror and torment. Outside of Death Shroud, the only major source of condition damage will be bleeds. That throws the class back to the major issue it had before Dhuumfire was added: If the bleeds are cleansed, the class effectively loses all its damage. (As an aside, I feel like a lot of people completely forgot condition coverage used to be a huge problem for necromancers. Many people appear to no longer remember that condition necromancers needed to run with condition engineers in high-level play to be viable.)

Third, Death Shroud needs to be used mostly for survivability in high-level play. Because the class severely lacks mobility and is one of the first targets for coordinated teams, it’s very risky to pop into Death Shroud for anything but survivability during initial engagements, which is when burst damage is most necessary. So in those precious moments, condition necromancer will now lack the burst needed to land an early kill. (Obviously this doesn’t apply in every situation, particularly if the necromancer has solid positioning, but it’s still a concern.)

Possible solution

Put Dhuumfire on other skills that are currently undervalued by condition necromancers. Two candidates: Necrotic Grasp (staff No. 1) and Feast of Corruption (scepter No. 3). That would give both skills more play while giving necromancers a controllable — instead of a random — source of burning outside of Death Shroud.

Well to be fair, they want dumbfire mainly for power specs and power specs are more in ds than other builds…

Not to mention that Death Shroud is one of the worst defensive mechanics in the game right now. People can instantly burst you out of Death Shroud, and all knockdowns and conditions continue to affect you while you are in DS.

I agree that a big nerf to Dhuumfire was long overdue. But if you nerf things, you got to balance it out with some improvements as well. Our class was in a terrible state for PVE, and now it will be even worse. And I don’t like it that they steer Dhuumfire towards one spec. It should be useful to multiple specs and multiple builds.

I get the impression that our class is constantly being balanced with a blindfold on regarding other areas of the game. It is as if the class is balanced based on how bothered other classes are with our build of the week in PVP, and not from the point of actually playing a necromancer.

Muchacho.2390:

Well to be fair, they want dumbfire mainly for power specs and power specs are more in ds than other builds…

I’m not sure where you got that idea. No power build should ever take Dhuumfire over Close to Death. Burning doesn’t scale with power at all — to the point a power build with burning is actually a DPS loss from a group perspective because it takes up burning time that could be used by a condition build.

Dhuumfire was specifically added to address condition necromancer’s lack of condition coverage.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Not to mention that Death Shroud is one of the worst defensive mechanics in the game right now. People can instantly burst you out of Death Shroud, and all knockdowns and conditions continue to affect you while you are in DS.

I completely disagree with this part of your post. Death Shroud is incredible survivability. Death Shroud mixed with Spectral Armor is one of the tankiest ability combinations in the game. To be honest, if Death Shroud was any stronger and somehow made you immune to conditions and knockdowns, necromancers would run even more rampant than they did after the big June patch.

I think your math is objectively wrong, too. A full life force bar is about 26,000 health because Death Shroud negates 50 percent of incoming direct damage. I can’t think of a single class that can instantly deal 26,000 damage.

The Dhuumfire change is misplaced — and it could make the trait completely worthless — but I don’t want this conversation to get carried away.

They should change it to 10% on hit with staff or something like that.

Lopez.7369:

Muchacho.2390:

Well to be fair, they want dumbfire mainly for power specs and power specs are more in ds than other builds…

I’m not sure where you got that idea. No power build should ever take Dhuumfire over Close to Death. Burning doesn’t scale with power at all — to the point a power build with burning is actually a DPS loss from a group perspective because it takes up burning time that could be used by a condition build.

Dhuumfire was specifically added to address condition necromancer’s lack of condition coverage.

No it was actually for hybrid builds. And for power builds i am not talking about pve where you are right but about pvp where the trait can be better than close to death even without any condition damage.

Muchacho.2390:

No it was actually for hybrid builds. And for power builds i am not talking about pve where you are right but about pvp where the trait can be better than close to death even without any condition damage.

I’m not sure where you got your information, but it’s wrong, based on developer and blog posts and my in-game conversations with a few developers. Condition coverage is why some high-rated players asked for burning, and it’s why the developers delivered.

Besides, what kind of hybrid necromancer has access to precision in PvP? The only way to run hybrid in PvP is carrion.

I also don’t know a single high-rated necromancer, myself included, who takes Dhuumfire over Close to Death when playing a power build. Burst is key in PvP, and Close to Death is incredible burst.

This thread is only in the context of PvP, by the way.

Stand The Wall.6987:

They should change it to 10% on hit with staff or something like that.

I think that would still be too random. But it could be attached to the staff auto-attack and maybe Feast of Corruption so it’s still on a scepter skill.

Lopez.7369:

I completely disagree with this part of your post. Death Shroud is incredible survivability. Death Shroud mixed with Spectral Armor is one of the tankiest ability combinations in the game. To be honest, if Death Shroud was any stronger and somehow made you immune to conditions and knockdowns, necromancers would run even more rampant than they did after the big June patch.

In pvp perhaps, but not in wvw or pve.

Necromancers in deathshroud get trashed. It’s like having a watered down version of invulnerability, only you have to build life force first, and you are not immune to anything, you get ping-ponged around with CC skills, it doesn’t scale with burst damage, and you can’t use any healing skills while in DS. It’s absolutely terrible. Oh, and it locks you out of your skills too after you exit it, and it is currently bugged (which means you actually lose health while in DS sometimes, or get instantly killed).

For a sustain class we absolutely have some of the worst sustain of all classes.

I specifically equipped my necro with Runes of Vampirism, so I at least go into Mistform at times of trouble. That has saved my life way more often than DS ever did.

This thread is clearly marked for PvP discussion.

Lopez.7369:

This thread is clearly marked for PvP discussion.

And I was also discussing PVP. Don’t come down on a single reply that mentions PVE as well. This blindness to the rest of the game is what hurts the necromancer the most. It is as if when PVP changes are discussed, WvW and PVE all of a sudden can’t be mentioned, and don’t exist. Don’t be that guy (or girl).

In regards to Dhuumfire, I don’t understand how they can nerf it, but then not revert all the changes that had to be made because of Dhuumfire. If you nerf one thing, you got to bring back the rest of the condition damage.

It’s not that effective in SPvP either if you’re up against an organized team since unlike a block or evade it can only suck up so much. A focused necromancer is a dead necromancer. It is however exceedingly effective in hotjoins. But I digress.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And I was also discussing PVP. Don’t come down on a single reply that mentions PVE as well. This blindness to the rest of the game is what hurts the necromancer the most. It is as if when PVP changes are discussed, WvW and PVE all of a sudden can’t be mentioned, and don’t exist. Don’t be that guy (or girl).

If you’re still talking about PvP, I simply disagree. Based on my experience against high-level teams, I think Death Shroud is incredible survivability in PvP. I strongly advocate against buffing it further.

The only problem, as I see it, is most necromancers completely misuse Death Shroud. That issue is made even worse by worse positioning, which seems to be a common problem for many players. Treating Death Shroud like a cooldown that can be just slapped around while giving little thought to positioning can definitely result in death for a class as lacking in mobility as necromancer.

I’m not discussing PvE and WvW. That’s very clearly not the point of this thread.

Fungalfoot.7213:

It’s not that effective in SPvP either if you’re up against an organized team since unlike a block or evade it can only suck up so much. A focused necromancer is a dead necromancer. It is however exceedingly effective in hotjoins. But I digress.

I don’t do hotjoin.

Even with the change, i still wouldn’t take it in my DS build over Close To Death. Currently none of the changes to Necromancer affect me – except the change to Crit Damage but that affects everyone even if its in a small way to some

Lopez.7369:

If you’re still talking about PvP, I simply disagree. Based on my experience against high-level teams, I think Death Shroud is incredible survivability in PvP. I strongly advocate against buffing it further.

The problem is, it scales TERRIBLY for how the fight is. 1Vs1, Very strong and the more out numbered you get – the worse it gets and that’s the OPPOSITE of all Invul skills.

While it is good when traited, it still has issues that need to be resolved.

I get the impression that the balance team has no coherent plan for what they want Death Shroud to be. I think it was supposed to be something that enemies would fear, but currently it’s a joke. So now they’ve moved Dhuumfire to DS, but what was the point of that? The main issue with Dhuumfire was that it was too powerful alongside all the other conditions, so they nerfed everything but Dhuumfire. And now they’ve finally decided to make access to Dhuumfire harder, which is not a bad idea…. but what about all the nerfs to other skills? What does the condition-mancer get in return? Or are we just not supposed to play condition builds any more?

I wish they would encourage more unpopular builds, rather than discourage the ones that work and are fun to play.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The problem is, it scales TERRIBLY for how the fight is. 1Vs1, Very strong and the more out numbered you get – the worse it gets and that’s the OPPOSITE of all Invul skills.

While it is good when traited, it still has issues that need to be resolved.

I just disagree. With an eye for proper positioning, it’s more than enough survivability for a ranged class. Even against some of the very best players, I successfully avoid focus trains by using it to get out of a bad spot.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I get the impression that the balance team has no coherent plan for what they want Death Shroud to be. I think it was supposed to be something that enemies would fear, but currently it’s a joke. So now they’ve moved Dhuumfire to DS, but what was the point of that? The main issue with Dhuumfire was that it was too powerful alongside all the other conditions, so they nerfed everything but Dhuumfire. And now they’ve finally decided to make access to Dhuumfire harder, which is not a bad idea…. but what about all the nerfs to other skills? What does the condition-mancer get in return? Or are we just not supposed to play condition builds any more?

I wish they would encourage more unpopular builds, rather than discourage the ones that work and are fun to play.

This is my takeaway as well. It seems like they just keep loading up Death Shroud with more and more abilities. It’s an incoherency that is bordering on making the class ability too gimmicky. That’s a big problem because it means all a good player has to do to counter a necromancer is get by Death Shroud.

Lopez.7369:

Muchacho.2390:

No it was actually for hybrid builds. And for power builds i am not talking about pve where you are right but about pvp where the trait can be better than close to death even without any condition damage.

I’m not sure where you got your information, but it’s wrong, based on developer and blog posts and my in-game conversations with a few developers. Condition coverage is why some high-rated players asked for burning, and it’s why the developers delivered.

Besides, what kind of hybrid necromancer has access to precision in PvP? The only way to run hybrid in PvP is carrion.

I also don’t know a single high-rated necromancer, myself included, who takes Dhuumfire over Close to Death when playing a power build. Burst is key in PvP, and Close to Death is incredible burst.

This thread is only in the context of PvP, by the way.

I think Leetos power build uses dhuumfire instead of close to death. And i only said it can be better in a power build in pvp not that it is better than closer to death in all situations (maybe not in the standard 30/10/0/0/30 well bomber build, but thats not the only power build). Well about the Condition coverage in pvp you are right but they put it in a power line so i think they wanted also non condition builds to consider it. To be honest torment and good access to it would have been better to solve that problem, than giving us burn, if it was only about condition builds.

The Hybrid remark was about pve/wvw not about pvp.

Ahh and sry i misread and thought it was about PvX.

Lopez.7369:

This is my takeaway as well. It seems like they just keep loading up Death Shroud with more and more abilities. It’s an incoherency that is bordering on making the class ability too gimmicky. That’s a big problem because it means all a good player has to do to counter a necromancer is get by Death Shroud.

That is indeed a very worrying thought. If they make everything hinge on Death Shroud, that would make our entire class dependent on whether DS is a good mechanic or not. I personally think it’s a terrible mechanic in its current state, like I said, which is why I worry about that point a lot. But it also means that less and less builds can be effective without going into some Death Shroud traits. And that hurts build variety and freedom a lot.

But we’ve seen this happening for quite some time now. They are constantly nerfing every popular necro build into oblivion, and slowly pushing us in one direction. At some point all necros will simply settle on the only build that is left in a playable state, and things will get very dull indeed. Mission accomplished?

Muchacho.2390:

Lopez.7369:

Muchacho.2390:

No it was actually for hybrid builds. And for power builds i am not talking about pve where you are right but about pvp where the trait can be better than close to death even without any condition damage.

I’m not sure where you got your information, but it’s wrong, based on developer and blog posts and my in-game conversations with a few developers. Condition coverage is why some high-rated players asked for burning, and it’s why the developers delivered.

Besides, what kind of hybrid necromancer has access to precision in PvP? The only way to run hybrid in PvP is carrion.

I also don’t know a single high-rated necromancer, myself included, who takes Dhuumfire over Close to Death when playing a power build. Burst is key in PvP, and Close to Death is incredible burst.

This thread is only in the context of PvP, by the way.

I think Leetos power build uses dhuumfire instead of close to death. And i only said it can be better in a power build in pvp not that it is better than closer to death in all situations (maybe not in the standard 30/10/0/0/30 well bomber build, but thats not the only power build). Well about the Condition coverage in pvp you are right but they put it in a power line so i think they wanted also non condition builds to consider it. To be honest torment and good access to it would have been better to solve that problem, than giving us burn, if it was only about condition builds.

The Hybrid remark was about pve/wvw not about pvp.

Ahh and sry i misread and thought it was about PvX.

Dhuumfire is objectively worse than Close to Death for any power build in any setting of the game. (It’s also mathematically inferior for hybrid builds, but I’m not going to argue that beyond this post.)

Leeto is probably the only exception, as you mentioned. But his build is pretty terrible and lacks coherency.

Lopez.7369:

Muchacho.2390:

Lopez.7369:

Muchacho.2390:

No it was actually for hybrid builds. And for power builds i am not talking about pve where you are right but about pvp where the trait can be better than close to death even without any condition damage.

I’m not sure where you got your information, but it’s wrong, based on developer and blog posts and my in-game conversations with a few developers. Condition coverage is why some high-rated players asked for burning, and it’s why the developers delivered.

Besides, what kind of hybrid necromancer has access to precision in PvP? The only way to run hybrid in PvP is carrion.

I also don’t know a single high-rated necromancer, myself included, who takes Dhuumfire over Close to Death when playing a power build. Burst is key in PvP, and Close to Death is incredible burst.

This thread is only in the context of PvP, by the way.

I think Leetos power build uses dhuumfire instead of close to death. And i only said it can be better in a power build in pvp not that it is better than closer to death in all situations (maybe not in the standard 30/10/0/0/30 well bomber build, but thats not the only power build). Well about the Condition coverage in pvp you are right but they put it in a power line so i think they wanted also non condition builds to consider it. To be honest torment and good access to it would have been better to solve that problem, than giving us burn, if it was only about condition builds.

The Hybrid remark was about pve/wvw not about pvp.

Ahh and sry i misread and thought it was about PvX.

Dhuumfire is objectively worse than Close to Death for any power build in any setting of the game. (It’s also mathematically inferior for hybrid builds, but I’m not going to argue that beyond this post.)

Leeto is probably the only exception, as you mentioned. But his build is pretty terrible and lacks coherency.

If you can get your opponent below 50% and if they stay below 50% then yes. But in a 1v1 thats not always the case. Well that probably not a problem, as power necros are normally played as team fighter in soloque and teamque. On a 1v1 Server its not the case.

I’m obviously not talking about one-on-one servers in this thread.

Yeh good points. DS will become basically a necros entire DPS. It is odd to nerf everything the necro has just to make room for burning (and tainted shackles to a lesser extent) and then to just give up and just essentially remove the burning anyway.

They should give back the bleeds and make dhuumfire bad like they are planning. They said they wanted to undo nerfs like this that are split across pve and pvp (elementalist signet). So I expect the same for necro bleeds.

Since dhuumfire patch necro has lost a lot of damage from weakining shroud nerf, mark of blood nerf (also effects a trait which used to be used), terror nerf, terror being moved up to master tier, corrupt boon nerf, grasping dead nerf.

All these nerfs to make way for dhuumfire. Then, poof, dhuumfire removed and so……bad result I guess. Really not great.

This doesnt even include that all other classes have seen massive buffs to their condi removal, and now a lot of classes are just immune to condis. And the necro weapons scale poorly with power.

Dhuumfire is essentially being removed with this change. Spending a second doing ds#1 AND losing ds as a result is not great. Espicially as you probably be interrupted or burst out of death shroud whilst channelling the ds#1

Mad Queen Malafide
“Not to mention that Death Shroud is one of the worst defensive mechanics in the game right now. People can instantly burst you out of Death Shroud, and all knockdowns and conditions continue to affect you while you are in DS.”

And that brings us back to utility lockout and siphon/heal in DS.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Yeh good points. DS will become basically a necros entire DPS. It is odd to nerf everything the necro has just to make room for burning (and tainted shackles to a lesser extent) and then to just give up and just essentially remove the burning anyway.

They should give back the bleeds and make dhuumfire bad like they are planning. They said they wanted to undo nerfs like this that are split across pve and pvp (elementalist signet). So I expect the same for necro bleeds.

Since dhuumfire patch necro has lost a lot of damage from weakining shroud nerf, mark of blood nerf (also effects a trait which used to be used), terror nerf, terror being moved up to master tier, corrupt boon nerf, grasping dead nerf.

All these nerfs to make way for dhuumfire. Then, poof, dhuumfire removed and so……bad result I guess. Really not great.

This doesnt even include that all other classes have seen massive buffs to their condi removal, and now a lot of classes are just immune to condis. And the necro weapons scale poorly with power.

Dhuumfire is essentially being removed with this change. Spending a second doing ds#1 AND losing ds as a result is not great. Espicially as you probably be interrupted or burst out of death shroud whilst channelling the ds#1

Good points as well. The terror nerf in particular seems completely unnecessary if burning is no longer going to be realistically accessible to necromancers.

I think it needs to be emphasized that the new iteration of Dhuumfire will be downright useless. It would be much better to go 10 points into Soul Reaping to get Soul Marks or Master of Terror, whichever a necromancer is missing, than go 10 points for a very mediocre burn.

Lopez.7369:

I just disagree. With an eye for proper positioning, it’s more than enough survivability for a ranged class. Even against some of the very best players, I successfully avoid focus trains by using it to get out of a bad spot.

Deathshroud is weak at range, the closer you are, the better it is, why do you think that Life Blast deals MORE damage at 600range than it does at 1200? Both the AoE skills are 600Range as well.

So You are wasting the potential of Deathshroud to stay in a “safe zone” – and why is that? Because the more you are focused the quicker you die, unlike pretty much everyone else who either have Invul, Stealth, Leaps or a combination of them all. In that regard DeathShroud is VERY weak.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Mad Queen Malafide
“Not to mention that Death Shroud is one of the worst defensive mechanics in the game right now. People can instantly burst you out of Death Shroud, and all knockdowns and conditions continue to affect you while you are in DS.”

And that brings us back to utility lockout and siphon/heal in DS.

…Don’t forget the bug that locks us out of heals, utilities and elite for 2-3 seconds AFTER leaving DeathShroud. Though i am going to guess we will see a “working as intended” sort of post come about that.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Deathshroud is weak at range, the closer you are, the better it is, why do you think that Life Blast deals MORE damage at 600range than it does at 1200? Both the AoE skills are 600Range as well.

So You are wasting the potential of Deathshroud to stay in a “safe zone” – and why is that? Because the more you are focused the quicker you die, unlike pretty much everyone else who either have Invul, Stealth, Leaps or a combination of them all. In that regard DeathShroud is VERY weak.

That’s a bizarrely narrow view of how the ability is used. When it’s used for survivability, Death Shroud is best maximized by keeping at range and only popping it to get into a better position or forcing enemies to over-extend. When it’s used for damage, Death Shroud involves going into close range very briefly but then quickly dipping out.

Anyway, it’s fine you feel this way. But high-level necromancers, including myself, think Death Shroud is currently working fine for survivability in PvP.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

…Don’t forget the bug that locks us out of heals, utilities and elite for 2-3 seconds AFTER leaving DeathShroud. Though i am going to guess we will see a “working as intended” sort of post come about that.

They already said that’s being fixed.

Lopez.7369:

Anyway, it’s fine you feel this way. But high-level necromancers, including myself, think Death Shroud is currently working fine for survivability in PvP.

PvP, you mean S/TPvP? So not counting WvW the mode that actually has you out numbered quite a bit. Why is it that people inist on saying something is “fine” based on a terrible game mode for and totally ignoring the other 2?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

…Don’t forget the bug that locks us out of heals, utilities and elite for 2-3 seconds AFTER leaving DeathShroud. Though i am going to guess we will see a “working as intended” sort of post come about that.

Lopez.7369:

They already said that’s being fixed.

Thats cute, you believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy as well? i bet this “fix” will end up breaking something else…

This is a PvP thread, so obviously I’m saying Death Shroud is fine in the context of PvP. (I’m not saying or otherwise implying Death Shroud is good or bad in other game modes, either. I’m not interested in commenting on the subject in any way in this thread because it’s completely off topic.)

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

…Don’t forget the bug that locks us out of heals, utilities and elite for 2-3 seconds AFTER leaving DeathShroud. Though i am going to guess we will see a “working as intended” sort of post come about that.

They already said that’s being fixed.[/quote]

5 months ago ^^

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

They already said that’s being fixed.

5 months ago ^^

That was my failed attempts at quoting different parts, that was Lopez that said that it is being fixed, though based on that i would guess he still believes in Sanata and the Tooth Fairy…

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

They already said that’s being fixed.

5 months ago ^^

That was my failed attempts at quoting different parts, that was Lopez that said that it is being fixed, though based on that i would guess he still believes in Sanata and the Tooth Fairy…

#believeintoothfairy

It was after the last balance patch. But that’s off topic, anyway.

As much as I hate the OP Engineers and Necromancer damage they produce with conditions, this isn’t ideal.

I’m a main Elementalist and this balance is not the right step, adding another blast finisher AND making Burning Speed evade attacks is just bad.
Undo the Ride the Lightning changes, give some more interesting Fire, Air and Earth traits.
The Elementalist does not need to be stronger, it needs to have more options.

I made a suggestion regarding Dhuumfire and it had a similar idea, whenever you fear, you burn, it has no internal cooldown.

I wouldn’t mind this change for Life Blast to burn, IF they replace Siphoned Power (25) with Dhuumfire and make it a passive trait.
Making it helpful for both power and condition builds.

Right now, that nerf is WAY to harsh, if you must choose between Dhuumfire and Close to Death, the answer is now obvious.

No one will spec 30 points just for Dhuumfire to trigger on Life Blast :\

This isn’t really so much a glaring problem for me as much as the supposed nerf to Beserker stats, BUT what? Dhuumfire for power specs? That doesn’t even make sense. As people have already said, it’s for hybrid and condition builds.

Also, I don’t really think, if the changes for Dhuumfire do go through, that it should even be in the GM tier anymore. Firstly, there’s http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Incendiary_Powder which is an identical trait, essentially, and which people have said (probably when used with skills) can be used to maintain perma burning.

Being able to apply burning post-patch now won’t be particularly inconvenient but tying it to DS/lifeforce will be.

Usagi.4835:

This isn’t really so much a glaring problem for me as much as the supposed nerf to Beserker stats, BUT what? Dhuumfire for power specs? That doesn’t even make sense. As people have already said, it’s for hybrid and condition builds.

Also, I don’t really think, if the changes for Dhuumfire do go through, that it should even be in the GM tier anymore. Firstly, there’s http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Incendiary_Powder which is an identical trait, essentially, and which people have said (probably when used with skills) can be used to maintain perma burning.

Being able to apply burning post-patch now won’t be particularly inconvenient but tying it to DS/lifeforce will be.

Why does everyone bring IP into Dhuumfire convos… eng was balanced around having burning from the start, while it was added into necro after. It was a mistake to give this to necro and now instead of removing it and giving what necros need, they are trying to balance around that mistake. Two very different situations on two different classes.

Aberrant.6749:

Usagi.4835:

This isn’t really so much a glaring problem for me as much as the supposed nerf to Beserker stats, BUT what? Dhuumfire for power specs? That doesn’t even make sense. As people have already said, it’s for hybrid and condition builds.

Also, I don’t really think, if the changes for Dhuumfire do go through, that it should even be in the GM tier anymore. Firstly, there’s http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Incendiary_Powder which is an identical trait, essentially, and which people have said (probably when used with skills) can be used to maintain perma burning.

Being able to apply burning post-patch now won’t be particularly inconvenient but tying it to DS/lifeforce will be.

Why does everyone bring IP into Dhuumfire convos… eng was balanced around having burning from the start, while it was added into necro after. It was a mistake to give this to necro and now instead of removing it and giving what necros need, they are trying to balance around that mistake. Two very different situations on two different classes.

Cool your jets, Mac. I’m not saying that they should make any changes to IP, rather I’m saying that Dhuumfire, if the change is going ahead, should be moved to Adept or Master tier because it will not be worth 30 points into Spite.

From what I’m gathering, it’s pretty much assumed Dhuumfire will be useless after this change. PvP condition necromancers are talking about 20/20/0/0/30 or 0/20/20/0/30 instead. PvE necromancers will probably go power or a more support-oriented build. Given that, the developers should probably just replace Dhuumfire with something that would be actually useful to power builds.

Usagi.4835:

Aberrant.6749:

Usagi.4835:

This isn’t really so much a glaring problem for me as much as the supposed nerf to Beserker stats, BUT what? Dhuumfire for power specs? That doesn’t even make sense. As people have already said, it’s for hybrid and condition builds.

Also, I don’t really think, if the changes for Dhuumfire do go through, that it should even be in the GM tier anymore. Firstly, there’s http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Incendiary_Powder which is an identical trait, essentially, and which people have said (probably when used with skills) can be used to maintain perma burning.

Being able to apply burning post-patch now won’t be particularly inconvenient but tying it to DS/lifeforce will be.

Why does everyone bring IP into Dhuumfire convos… eng was balanced around having burning from the start, while it was added into necro after. It was a mistake to give this to necro and now instead of removing it and giving what necros need, they are trying to balance around that mistake. Two very different situations on two different classes.

Cool your jets, Mac. I’m not saying that they should make any changes to IP, rather I’m saying that Dhuumfire, if the change is going ahead, should be moved to Adept or Master tier because it will not be worth 30 points into Spite.

HEY I’M COOL OK. JUST DON’T BRING IP INTO THE CLUSTER KITTEN THAT IS DHUUMFIRE OK GG TY : )

I do have the concern that Necro could well become a one trick pony if too much is loaded into Death Shroud. Survivability, condition cover and CC are already loaded into DS – and while I appreciate the why of Dhuumfire moving into DS, I don’t agree with the how.

I also don’t agree with the stance that Dhuumfire should be restricted solely to 2 weapons like Staff or Scepter. There is a risk of making a trait too build-specific, and it’s why Dhuumfire was made to be on-crit in the first place – On-crit is reasonably build-agnostic.

Thankfully, there are other mechanics other than DS to put Dhuumfire on. I’m just brainstorming here, so feel free to input your own.

• On Weapon Swap – Your next attack after swapping weapon sets inflicts Burning (10 second CD). This is reasonably build agnostic, but currently, Weapon swaps aren’t that strongly cued, so the visual effect of green fire enveloping the Necromancer’s weapon can be used. Or a green ring of fire around the Necro’s waist level.

• On applying a control effect – Your next attack after controlling a foe (Immobilise, Fear, Stun, Daze, Knockdown) will inflict Burning. (10 second CD). This restricts Dhuumfire to a condi Terror build, which I guess doesn’t do anything too meta shifting. It does stop the autoattack spam though, which raises the skill floor.

• On manipulating conditions – Your next attack after transferring a condition, drawing conditions to yourself, proliferating conditions or cleansing a condition inflicts Burning. (10 second CD) Necromancers are the kings of conditions and condition control. This makes Necromancers taking Dhuumfire a force to be reckoned with against condi classes, but does restrict Dhuumfire to off hand focus and certain utilities. It will also be a massive nerf to Dhuumfire’s possible uptime.

• On enemy health threshold – Your weapon skills (i.e. 2-5, not autoattacks) inflict burning on foes under (25-33%) health. (10 second CD) This turns Dhuumfire into the condition equivalent of Bolt to the Heart. Unfortunately, it is also extremely poorly cued because opponents running low will suddenly find themselves swamped with condis and burned to death. It also makes Necros running Dhuumfire into a cleanup crew of conditions in a teamfight. Could well be very polarising. Then again, Bolt to the Heart and similar traits don’t seem to receive much flak either.

Forcing condi necros to have to stay an extra second to cast a power skill just for a single target condi is going to kill dhuumfire builds altogether.

Lopez.7369:

This thread is clearly marked for PvP discussion.

Problem is, all these talks about changes affect PvE too.. such as the change to how death shroud works. Why they don’t completely separate spvp for proper balance is beyond me.