Guild Wars 2

bigmonto.4215:

Having to press button is not “activity”. Just because you are force to press a button on something doesn’t make you good.

I’m not sure why you made this connection of forceful activeness equating to being good. Pressing a button is activity vs. not pressing a button so… yeah. The purpose of the activity is for functions like confusion that be used as a counter play to other classes who use signet heals, namely ele and thief. Currently only poison is the counter play and of course dmg.

bigmonto.4215:

For example: warrior vs mesmer. Warrior must figure out mesmer’s build, constantly gauging his health health, it’s position, find the right targets, guess opponent’s energy level, determent whether to burst, or play defensively. While mesmer, just spawn clones, and stealth, and watch the warrior kill himself.

Sure the mesmer might have to press more buttons, and the warrior less. But if you are a warrior that can win over a warrior vs mesmer duel, I ’ll say you are the better player.

That’s just the process every other class goes thru as well when fighting mesmers, its not specific to warriors.

ReesesPBC.4603:

Sykper.6583:

HS is fine as is. The reason it is used 99.9% of cases (and thus making it a good scape-goat for criticism) is that the other healing options for warrior are severely outdone.

Also with the nerf to Dogged March which was far more important, warriors are sustaining for a ‘right’ amount right now.

I strongly disagree. If they were to bring up other heal skills based on HS right now they may be even worse than HS. There should be adjustments to all the heal skills. Like the OP and others I’d rather have the war class be more active and many people are defending its passive nature but in truth the unbalance is in just that, it’s passive vs other signet heals.

HS would be better served if it were to be activated with its current healing by actually hitting something (and of maybe blocking as well, debatable), not granting regen that can be removed/stolen. There should be that understanding to encourage more active play/reward instead of the current passive boring tank/spank.

I don’t mind the option of removing some amount of passive play, at the same time Warriors are nowhere near the point where the changes suggested by the OP wouldn’t cripple the profession to obscurity. It has been pointed out that of all the weaknesses of the warrior, that they are highly telegraphic. If healing signet were reduced to successful attacks for regeneration, then it would be in a worse state then Mending is currently for the Warrior to use.

Warriors are strong, but for all the wrong reasons. People aren’t defending the passive play of warriors as much as trying to prevent the class from going back to Launch-State level of horridness. And for the record, the only heal that has remotely close potential to start being used as an alternative to HS is Healing Surge, but its own mechanic diminishes it from any real competitive use.

While some people may seem to aim to nerf HS out of hatred I’d rather, as mentioned, promote more active play. If Anet were to change HS to be more passive it would be up to them on what would be balanced for “HS regen” in regards to heal amount and duration, maybe make it like mentioned on hit or per swing or block or something. At the same time they definitely need to rework the other heals that live in HS’ shadow.

Roe.3679:

I think what OP is suggesting is that there should be more activity and give and take for some of the warrior abilities.

I wish that the I vulnerabilities they had gave some drawbacks, kind of like how rangers (I think) have quickness but take 50% more damage during that period. Just something to make it require a little more thought, I think, would be a positive.

Actually, that IS a warrior skill. Frenzy = quickness with 25% extra damage taken. The Ranger one, is quickness with 50% less health healed during the duration.

Just because warrior is an “easier” class to play, doesn’t mean that it should be weaker by nature. Making something weaker because it has a lower skill cap isn’t balance.

Pibriamal.8719:

Roe.3679:

I think what OP is suggesting is that there should be more activity and give and take for some of the warrior abilities.

I wish that the I vulnerabilities they had gave some drawbacks, kind of like how rangers (I think) have quickness but take 50% more damage during that period. Just something to make it require a little more thought, I think, would be a positive.

Actually, that IS a warrior skill. Frenzy = quickness with 25% extra damage taken. The Ranger one, is quickness with 50% less health healed during the duration.

Just because warrior is an “easier” class to play, doesn’t mean that it should be weaker by nature. Making something weaker because it has a lower skill cap isn’t balance.

So much truth. Both in your post and in Sykper’s. Sadly there are people who want to nerf warrior just because.
They’ve wanted it so long it’s on their " to do list".

Nobody notices the rampant engies you meet in every sPVP match now.

Harper.4173:

Muchacho.2390:

Harper.4173:

Necromancers have the same HP while having access to another life bar and the on-cast signet allows for very good sustain if used properly.

The necro signet is only bad…
Against any decent player all the other heals give better sustain than vampire signet. So plz dont say it gives good sustain…

The on-cast signet is the ele one – i wasn’t talking about necro with that one.

Ok it sounded as if you meant the active of vampire signet…

ReesesPBC.4603:

bigmonto.4215:

Having to press button is not “activity”. Just because you are force to press a button on something doesn’t make you good.

I’m not sure why you made this connection of forceful activeness equating to being good. Pressing a button is activity vs. not pressing a button so… yeah. The purpose of the activity is for functions like confusion that be used as a counter play to other classes who use signet heals, namely ele and thief. Currently only poison is the counter play and of course dmg.

I thought the whole argument that some people made to change HS is because HS made warrior seem too passive and skill-less. My argument is that having to press a button does not make a player more skillful, nor does not having to press the button make a player skill-less. (my example with warrior vs mesmer is trying to show this)

Yes you don’t have to press a button for HS to heal, but since you can’t heal at a large amount at the moment’s notice, you have to consistently aware your health level, positioning, and aggressiveness. Your opponent notice that, and you need to know that your opponent notice that and act accordingly. It is a different type of play, not active or passive nor is it good or bad.

I do wish HS has a decent active though as well as other viable healing options for warriors. Currently warrior is just too squishy without HS.

Crovax.7854:

my bad, totally forgot how skillful wvw blobs are. hurrdurr.
try actual pvp with GS/hammer on a higher mmr, then come back complaining how OP it is.

whoa, guess i hit a nerve here.
i never said that this combo is OP, just that it makes lootbags rain without giving a thought. i did not claim the warr to be OP at all, just that the class plays itself. this is, however, also true in smallscale/1v1. you can make far more mistakes than other classes, miss dodges etc., the class will mitigate your bad playstyle for you.

MarauderShields.6830:

Crovax.7854:

my bad, totally forgot how skillful wvw blobs are. hurrdurr.
try actual pvp with GS/hammer on a higher mmr, then come back complaining how OP it is.

whoa, guess i hit a nerve here.
i never said that this combo is OP, just that it makes lootbags rain without giving a thought. i did not claim the warr to be OP at all, just that the class plays itself. this is, however, also true in smallscale/1v1. you can make far more mistakes than other classes, miss dodges etc., the class will mitigate your bad playstyle for you.

I agree with this post and this idea was the thinking behind my post earlier in this thread. Warrior just has quite a few ways that the class is very forgiving and has a lower skill floor.

Yes Warrior has a lower skill floor, but the skill ceiling is quiet high. But why is it wrong for different class to have different skill floor or skill ceiling? Seriously I won’t necessarily say theft and mesmer has a higher skill floor. How hard is it to press a button to stealth?

Once again press more button != more skilled or active play

bigmonto.4215:

Yes Warrior has a lower skill floor, but the skill ceiling is quiet high. But why is it wrong for different class to have different skill floor or skill ceiling? Seriously I won’t necessarily say theft and mesmer has a higher skill floor. How hard is it to press a button to stealth?

Of course classes will have different skill floors, and yes, some stealth classes are cheese mode. The thing is that having a skill floor as low as the warrior’s currently is and still having the class be as effective as it is isn’t a good thing for the game, in my opinion, or good for passionate warrior mains who I can understand them defending the class.

Roe.3679:

bigmonto.4215:

Yes Warrior has a lower skill floor, but the skill ceiling is quiet high. But why is it wrong for different class to have different skill floor or skill ceiling? Seriously I won’t necessarily say theft and mesmer has a higher skill floor. How hard is it to press a button to stealth?

Of course classes will have different skill floors, and yes, some stealth classes are cheese mode. The thing is that having a skill floor as low as the warrior’s currently is and still having the class be as effective as it is isn’t a good thing for the game, in my opinion, or good for passionate warrior mains who I can understand them defending the class.

You know this how? From your forum posts i gather that you only play necro.

Crovax.7854:

Roe.3679:

bigmonto.4215:

Yes Warrior has a lower skill floor, but the skill ceiling is quiet high. But why is it wrong for different class to have different skill floor or skill ceiling? Seriously I won’t necessarily say theft and mesmer has a higher skill floor. How hard is it to press a button to stealth?

Of course classes will have different skill floors, and yes, some stealth classes are cheese mode. The thing is that having a skill floor as low as the warrior’s currently is and still having the class be as effective as it is isn’t a good thing for the game, in my opinion, or good for passionate warrior mains who I can understand them defending the class.

You know this how? From your forum posts i gather that you only play necro.

Yes, forum posts = gameplay experience. Well done, sir, clearly I have been bested.

Roe.3679:

bigmonto.4215:

Yes Warrior has a lower skill floor, but the skill ceiling is quiet high. But why is it wrong for different class to have different skill floor or skill ceiling? Seriously I won’t necessarily say theft and mesmer has a higher skill floor. How hard is it to press a button to stealth?

Of course classes will have different skill floors, and yes, some stealth classes are cheese mode. The thing is that having a skill floor as low as the warrior’s currently is and still having the class be as effective as it is isn’t a good thing for the game, in my opinion, or good for passionate warrior mains who I can understand them defending the class.

It is your opinion.

As I mentioned theft and mesmer having pretty low skill floor, having also be playing a guardian, I would say its boon build is pretty easy to play. So you have 4 out of 8 classes having low skill floor and excelled at its perspective areas. Why exactly is warrior being singled out, or why it isn’t a good thing for the game?

Muchacho.2390:

Harper.4173:

Muchacho.2390:

Harper.4173:

Necromancers have the same HP while having access to another life bar and the on-cast signet allows for very good sustain if used properly.

The necro signet is only bad…
Against any decent player all the other heals give better sustain than vampire signet. So plz dont say it gives good sustain…

The on-cast signet is the ele one – i wasn’t talking about necro with that one.

Ok it sounded as if you meant the active of vampire signet…

Nope – sorry for the confusion.

pierwola.9602:

“The Line”

Last Stand: Negates the control effect and activates Balanced Stance.
Suggestion: Activates Balanced Stance after the 1st CC disappear.

Why would we pick “Last Stand” if that gives stability after we already got controlled?
In sPvP, we have to be reactive. If we get fully controlled by “the 1st” CC, then that means that the ennemy has done what he wanted. And this would make this trait completely useless. If you have done some PvP, you would know that 1 CC can be decisive. And 90s is kinda long for a major trait and isn’t really attractive when there’s far more interesting major traits in Defense. Maybe, make it trigger after 0.1s and it would be like as if we “broke stun” by ourselves and it would be enough interrupt the action, which is nice (like for exemple, interrupting a stomp).

I think too that Healing Signet is little OP but the other heals aren’t really enough profitable .

-Healing Surge : casting time and CD are long. And I remember, so as a Warrior, a melee bruiser, to feel it’s heal, I tended to wait till I had 3 bars of adrenaline and knowing that it fills my 3 bars of adrenaline makes me feel like I wasted some potential bursts. When I was using it just after a burst skill, it wasn’t enough (6k is 1/4 of most warriors’ max HP) and felt like a waste of heal (10k fills almost half of your HP bar).
If it has to be used more in a aggressive way, (so sacrificing your potential heal), the casting time must be reduced, 1s is way too long for a little amount of heal and too risky to get interrupted as a bruiser war, you are one of the first focus’. And to be really effective, we would more likely choose 2 burst skills that can severely damage the enemy (like F1 mace/hammer + F1 axe) in the shortest time possible. In this way of logic, including the weapon swap need and casting animations of the burst skills, 1s to cast Healing Surge is not enough quick to be used like a offensive tool. If we look at Restorative Strength in Strength, it removes all movement affecting conditions allowing to the Warrior to directly continue his assault, pressure in the combat.

-Mending : The small amount of heal and the fact that we got Cleansing Ire combined with Healing Signet and Berserker Stance lets it with no interest. So increasing the heal and adding more condition removes or add a fact that reduces the duration of incoming conditions (or some specifics) for a short period of time. Why not even an invulnerability to one or two specific incoming conditions for a short period of time, that could be interesting (like blind+weakness or movement conditions, even fear+vulnerability as the icon looks like a fearless man!)

-Defiant Stance : I find this one really interesting and worthy for a high damage/burst build but suicidal (so something like 6/6/x/x/x with Frenzy). And as it is a “stance”, it would be more interesting to remove the casting time, just like the other stances. The interest of this heal is to absorb the incoming burst and to heal yourself fully; so you want to use it when you are really low and it is your last chance; 0.25s for the cast is really fast but often we are under controls when we are low (enemy will do so to secure the kill) and it happens to not be able to cast it and feeling like “kitten I took this heal over Healing signet, what a idiot!”. So instant casting would be interesting for surprise enemies in teamfights and propose more various gameplays
It will be just like Endure Pain but it will heal you completely if you use it at the right moment when you get focused. If the enemies pay attention, they will change their focus / stop hitting you while you are under Defiant Stance.

-Healing Signet : As like proposed above, better scaling of the passive with healing power would be more nice while reducing slightly the basic health regen par second; more interesting for bunkers and less for damage dealers. But to do this changement, you have to first buff/up the other healing skills of the warrior.

But for me, you aren’t asking for the right nerf! What I find really broken is the Long Bow’s high damage for really short CD’s (F1; 3; 5) and the immobilization of 5 lasts for 3s! (which means death for a glass canon if he doesn’t cure). Hammer deals really high damages (mainly when you stack mights with F1 bow+3bow and F1 ham) for the amount of controls it gives and that removes any interests to have it as a controlling weapon while having axe/sword/GS on swap for deal damage with. These “might” stack runes need some nerfs.

While the topic is about balancing warriors, I ask for some fixes & improvements :
-Throw Bolas ; Throwing Axe ;Impale : these projectiles go on CD sometimes when launched at really close distance while having the target in front of me at end of the casting time.. Enlarge the angle ?
-Shield Bash ; Bull’s Charge ; Rush ; Eviscerate : their animations must be much more quicker if launched at really close distance. They are leaps and can be dodged easily when launched at an average distance because the player can see them coming, normal. But at melee, the opponent has less time to see them coming and therefore shouldn’t be able to dodge them this easily because of some lack in the quickness of the animation.
For Shield Bash you can even make it’s range 130, and remove the “leap” effect, I don’t see why it would be a leap with . Or you can change completely the animation and make it look like a Spartan’s shield bash by adding a jump! A little like Savage_Leap but with more style!
-Savage_Leap doesn’t really work well when the target is in lower altitude.

Too much writing for a game I don’t play really this much and I don’t care much anymore, but this April patch brought me a little hope!

Asato.5479:

-Healing Signet : As like proposed above, better scaling of the passive with healing power would be more nice while reducing slightly the basic health regen par second; more interesting for bunkers and less for damage dealers. But to do this changement, you have to first buff/up the other healing skills of the warrior.

The only reason HS was implemented the way it is now was because they wanted to give “damage dealer” ( aka non-bunker) warriors passive sustain and means to survive without them having to spec as bunker.

If we take that away the skill becomes obsolete in its intended purpose.

Asato.5479:

But for me, you aren’t asking for the right nerf! What I find really broken is the Long Bow’s high damage for really short CD’s (F1; 3; 5) and the immobilization of 5 lasts for 3s! (which means death for a glass canon if he doesn’t cure). Hammer deals really high damages (mainly when you stack mights with F1 bow+3bow and F1 ham) for the amount of controls it gives and that removes any interests to have it as a controlling weapon while having axe/sword/GS on swap for deal damage with. These “might” stack runes need some nerfs.

Hammer has already taken a damage nerf.
Longbow’s #5 has already been given an easy to read animation. If it hits you now you really did deserve it.
The might stacking runes aren’t OP as people would make them seem.

Harper.4173:

Asato.5479:

-Healing Signet : As like proposed above, better scaling of the passive with healing power would be more nice while reducing slightly the basic health regen par second; more interesting for bunkers and less for damage dealers. But to do this changement, you have to first buff/up the other healing skills of the warrior.

The only reason HS was implemented the way it is now was because they wanted to give “damage dealer” ( aka non-bunker) warriors passive sustain and means to survive without them having to spec as bunker.

If we take that away the skill becomes obsolete in its intended purpose.

Yeah but imagine other speccs besides hambow becoming viable.
As someone who plays both types of war bunker in spvp and tried hambow,
my opinion is that HS is kinda high with 0 healing power.

Flat out nerfing it would hurt every war specc just because one is a tad over the top at the moment. IMO it should heal ~80% of its current amount with 0 hp- scaling to ~120% with 643 hp (hp as second stat) and ~135% with 922 (primary stat).

Considering war bunker are still far inferior to guardians or engies, this would tone down builds with focus on cc/damage while opnening up more options for the class as a whole.

It’s all about choice and diversity. Although non-war players might want to see it that way, nobody likes being pidgeonholed into one particular specc because it’s so much better then the next best alternative.

I would love to slot Defiant Stance over HS, it’s just not as effective though. It’s basically Abbadon ult from Dota, so I think it should be insta-cast and break stuns, but it should give a very big visual indicator, like the warrior glows bright blue or something. This way you use it actively to absorb a big hit coming your way, and then you can punish scrubs that leave auto attack on.

Actually, Abbadon still has that stupid autocast feature (so many times where a creep procced it) so I guess more like Accursed from HoN…

Asato.5479:

Why would we pick “Last Stand” if that gives stability after we already got controlled?
In sPvP, we have to be reactive. If we get fully controlled by “the 1st” CC, then that means that the ennemy has done what he wanted. And this would make this trait completely useless. If you have done some PvP, you would know that 1 CC can be decisive. And 90s is kinda long for a major trait and isn’t really attractive when there’s far more interesting major traits in Defense. Maybe, make it trigger after 0.1s and it would be like as if we “broke stun” by ourselves and it would be enough interrupt the action, which is nice (like for exemple, interrupting a stomp).

What about Reaper’s Protection/Mirror of Anguish vs Last Stand ?

Harper.4173:

The only reason HS was implemented the way it is now was because they wanted to give “damage dealer” ( aka non-bunker) warriors passive sustain and means to survive without them having to spec as bunker.

And here is the problem, AFK player can’t do any dmg and the signet still works.

Crovax.7854:

Yeah but imagine other speccs besides hambow becoming viable.
As someone who plays both types of war bunker in spvp and tried hambow,
my opinion is that HS is kinda high with 0 healing power.

Flat out nerfing it would hurt every war specc just because one is a tad over the top at the moment. IMO it should heal ~80% of its current amount with 0 hp- scaling to ~120% with 643 hp (hp as second stat) and ~135% with 922 (primary stat).

Considering war bunker are still far inferior to guardians or engies, this would tone down builds with focus on cc/damage while opnening up more options for the class as a whole.

It’s all about choice and diversity. Although non-war players might want to see it that way, nobody likes being pidgeonholed into one particular specc because it’s so much better then the next best alternative.

The sad issue is that when a popular build ( hambow) gets nerfed what’ll happen is people will more likely reroll class instead of just switching build.

There’s a reason people play Hambow – it’s effective – people who care about being effective won’t switch to a less effective build – they’ll just reroll to a different class.

The way to open up build diversity is to make other builds desirable – not nerf the one that’s most popular.

Also making HS scale with healing power more will defeat the purpose that the skill was made for.

HS was designed to make non-tanky warriors sturdy ( it does that) while not becoming completely OP on bunker warriors ( it will do that if you make it scale with healing power) – so I don’t see any reason why the skill should be changed since it does what it was intended to do and has also been nerfed. Nerfing it even further will mean there would be no reason to take it.

If HS does need a change – it needs a good active – an active that promotes active use of the skill thus negating the regen for a period and creating skillful play through a trade-off decision.

That’s what Anet said they would do before touching the skill in any way – but what happened was the active was left as is and the passive nerfed.

pierwola.9602:

Asato.5479:

Why would we pick “Last Stand” if that gives stability after we already got controlled?
In sPvP, we have to be reactive. If we get fully controlled by “the 1st” CC, then that means that the ennemy has done what he wanted. And this would make this trait completely useless. If you have done some PvP, you would know that 1 CC can be decisive. And 90s is kinda long for a major trait and isn’t really attractive when there’s far more interesting major traits in Defense. Maybe, make it trigger after 0.1s and it would be like as if we “broke stun” by ourselves and it would be enough interrupt the action, which is nice (like for exemple, interrupting a stomp).

What about Reaper’s Protection/Mirror of Anguish vs Last Stand ?

Well, it will cancel each other. Logically, if you get hit by a stun and your passive is to send back that stun to it’s launcher, if it’s launcher has a passive against stun too, it will trigger it; neither you and the Warrior will get stunned; so the Warrior at the end would have wasted a stun! Reaper’s Protection/Mirror of Anguish are working… As do Last Stand.
Maybe we need some clear icons that will show that the player has the passive or used it.

Harper.4173:

Asato.5479:

But for me, you aren’t asking for the right nerf! What I find really broken is the Long Bow’s high damage for really short CD’s (F1; 3; 5) and the immobilization of 5 lasts for 3s! (which means death for a glass canon if he doesn’t cure). Hammer deals really high damages (mainly when you stack mights with F1 bow+3bow and F1 ham) for the amount of controls it gives and that removes any interests to have it as a controlling weapon while having axe/sword/GS on swap for deal damage with. These “might” stack runes need some nerfs.

Hammer has already taken a damage nerf.
Longbow’s #5 has already been given an easy to read animation. If it hits you now you really did deserve it.
The might stacking runes aren’t OP as people would make them seem.

Yeah for sure I deserve it, and we all know that the game is about 1vs1 fights… -_-
-When I play hambow, I don’t stay close the whole game… I like to roam when I play my Warrior. Should I say “you did deserve it” to the player who’s fighting my ally on a point and didn’t/couldn’t see me coming? “Yeah you do deserve that 3s immo and 6 stacks of bleeding that last for 12s, NOOB!” That’s what I should say? Surely, I should add “That’s not all! You deserve this stun, this knockback and this knockdown too, noob! Go back to the PvE!” …

What’s happening to the GW2 community ? I see more more players hating, raging, freely insulting and being completely closed-minded…!
(For the story of my screenshots : we are winning ~390 against ~450 with 2 points capped for us; we see them trying to rush our Lord ; I go def, because it is really possible to rush Lord quickly and ignoring completely the enemy players, it’s a last hope try. And I’ve recently done it with only one ally following me. So I go def, but this necro starts insulting me for free and completely without any good reason; ah and because I’m playing Warrior, I’m a noob who needs to l2p, funny thing because he was playing a MM Necro which is for sure a skillful build! Killing time = doing nothing useful, right? Why should my actions bother him then? Maybe it’s my skin that makes me look like a newbie.. kitten ! I paid 60g and 60k glory to buy it, it was all my fortune and I kinda feel like I’m forced to use it )

And yeah! You are completely right about these might stacks, they aren’t OP at all. They only add about +875 Power.. which is equivalent of an additional Power amulet
When you say, they already nerfed hammer’s damage, are you talking about this? If it’s the case, you are forgetting that they gave the hambow the possibility of stacking around 20-25 Might stacks.. which in fact is a boost of hammer’s damage..

Harper.4173:

Asato.5479:

-Healing Signet : As like proposed above, better scaling of the passive with healing power would be more nice while reducing slightly the basic health regen par second; more interesting for bunkers and less for damage dealers. But to do this changement, you have to first buff/up the other healing skills of the warrior.

The only reason HS was implemented the way it is now was because they wanted to give “damage dealer” ( aka non-bunker) warriors passive sustain and means to survive without them having to spec as bunker.

If we take that away the skill becomes obsolete in its intended purpose.

Don’t you see a problem… when all warriors are using only “Healing Signet” as healing skill? Why won’t we be using the others heals? They need some buffs to become as much interesting than HS. => variety of builds.
It is true that Healing Signet gives nice sustain to “damage dealers” (so berserker amulet?!), but it is also so because of the warrior’s highly defensive skills/utilities…
Don’t take blocks, Endure Pain or Berserker’s Stance. You will see that you are much more squishy, and fact that having HS, well… it won’t change the fact that you are going to down quickly if you are focus. HS isn’t really designed for damage dealers/berserker amulet’s. And the fact that you are seeing this like a
But if we change HS for something like => Life Steal for DPS, and HPS (heal par second) for bunkers, that would make sense and be interesting. To be healed => you have to be effective as an offender/DPS. It is way more logical to see a HPS on a player who’s role is to tank.

I start thinking that all you want is “only” want is having one Heal and having one build on Warrior… If the “hambows” change class because it isn’t op as it is actually then they don’t deserve to play this class. It can be only a good thing, and for everybody!
A Warrior cannot be ineffective! It’s the bruiser. So yes, Warrior needs some buffs and some nerfs to have some variety of builds.

Asato.5479:

Well, it will cancel each other. Logically, if you get hit by a stun and your passive is to send back that stun to it’s launcher, if it’s launcher has a passive against stun too, it will trigger it; neither you and the Warrior will get stunned; so the Warrior at the end would have wasted a stun! Reaper’s Protection/Mirror of Anguish are working… As do Last Stand.
Maybe we need some clear icons that will show that the player has the passive or used it.

You are wrong. Necro/Mesmer will still receive the 1st CC.

Asato.5479:

What’s happening to the GW2 community ? I see more more players hating, raging, freely insulting and being completely closed-minded…!

Wow.
Those screenshots.

Geez, some people really need to stop playing. There should be an instant-temp-ban for raging, that way sPvP would have 95% less players but it’d be a massive improvement.

Asato.5479:

And yeah! You are completely right about these might stacks, they aren’t OP at all. They only add about +875 Power.. which is equivalent of an additional Power amulet
When you say, they already nerfed hammer’s damage, are you talking about this? If it’s the case, you are forgetting that they gave the hambow the possibility of stacking around 20-25 Might stacks.. which in fact is a boost of hammer’s damage..

Every class and every build can run those runes.
And no, Pin down is no OP no matter how much people want to make it seem that way.
25 seconds cool down for a skill that can be easily dodged / blocked.

And no – fighting on point and having someone else show up is not a valid argument. Any 2 v 1 fight is unbalanced by the very nature of the numbers – so I wouldn’t say the skill is unfair in a 2 v 1 since 2 v 1 fights are unfair by default.
By your logic any skill that you get hit by because you’re engaging another player is unfair.

Asato.5479:

Harper.4173:

Asato.5479:

-Healing Signet : As like proposed above, better scaling of the passive with healing power would be more nice while reducing slightly the basic health regen par second; more interesting for bunkers and less for damage dealers. But to do this changement, you have to first buff/up the other healing skills of the warrior.

The only reason HS was implemented the way it is now was because they wanted to give “damage dealer” ( aka non-bunker) warriors passive sustain and means to survive without them having to spec as bunker.

If we take that away the skill becomes obsolete in its intended purpose.

Don’t you see a problem… when all warriors are using only “Healing Signet” as healing skill? Why won’t we be using the others heals? They need some buffs to become as much interesting than HS. => variety of builds.
It is true that Healing Signet gives nice sustain to “damage dealers” (so berserker amulet?!), but it is also so because of the warrior’s highly defensive skills/utilities…
Don’t take blocks, Endure Pain or Berserker’s Stance. You will see that you are much more squishy, and fact that having HS, well… it won’t change the fact that you are going to down quickly if you are focus. HS isn’t really designed for damage dealers/berserker amulet’s. And the fact that you are seeing this like a
But if we change HS for something like => Life Steal for DPS, and HPS (heal par second) for bunkers, that would make sense and be interesting. To be healed => you have to be effective as an offender/DPS. It is way more logical to see a HPS on a player who’s role is to tank.

I start thinking that all you want is “only” want is having one Heal and having one build on Warrior… If the “hambows” change class because it isn’t op as it is actually then they don’t deserve to play this class. It can be only a good thing, and for everybody!
A Warrior cannot be ineffective! It’s the bruiser. So yes, Warrior needs some buffs and some nerfs to have some variety of builds.

The problem here is that you’re still thinking in the old tank/healer/dps paradigm.
That’s why you say things like It is way more logical to see a HPS on a player who’s role is to tank. – which is both sad and wrong.

Again – when the developers made HS the way it is today the idea was to give non-tanky warriors the sustain they need so the class isn’t forced into playing condi bunker types.

Sadly you don’t really get that a warrior can be ineffective as he very well was ( bruiser and all) during the first 6 months or more since the game launched. During those days the only thing warrior was effective at was giving free kills.

The claims that you’re making about warrior being unable to be ineffective show just how well you understand the game.

Please understand that the skill is working as intended – the active should maybe be changed somewhat but nobody has bothered with that and i think it’ll be a while before it happens.

And I do agree – other heals might need to be buffed slightly – but as they are they are still a viable alternative to HS since HS does not offer any form of burst healing. So if you’re getting spiked you’ve got nothing to fall back on.
The issue with this is that with a meta dominated by conditions pure damage spikes are few and far between so anti-spike healing is not really that much on demand – but that’s because of the meta and not the heal balancing itself.

The problem here is that you’re still thinking in the old tank/healer/dps paradigm.
That’s why you say things like It is way more logical to see a HPS on a player who’s role is to tank. – which is both sad and wrong.

So are you stating that in GW2, there’s no bunkers and we don’t have to hold points to win a game?

Again – when the developers made HS the way it is today the idea was to give non-tanky warriors the sustain they need so the class isn’t forced into playing condi bunker types.

And they surely wanted to make the other heals completely useless by making HS that way. You don’t have to buff only one thing to find a solution..

Sadly you don’t really get that a warrior can be ineffective as he very well was ( bruiser and all) during the first 6 months or more since the game launched. During those days the only thing warrior was effective at was giving free kills.

The claims that you’re making about warrior being unable to be ineffective show just how well you understand the game.

You sadly don’t get that no body want to make the Warrior ineffective. But kitten , I don’t want to be forced to play Hambow with HS on teamQ arenas for years, till the game dies… We want some varieties which would be as effective as the current Hambow. You are the real defender of the Hambow… You totally blind yourself about truths and it is sad. You only state that some nerf on Hambow would make the class completely useless. Have you ever played other weapons/builds? You would know these weapons are nice to play too well.
I really don’t remember Warrior being ineffective the first 5 months after the game launch. Remember 100blade meta? Go go frenzy+bull’s charge+100b on someone who had no stunbreaker (so you know who just used it or is already on CD), it was a kill for sure! And I remember, I loved playing Hammer+Axe/shield (3/6/0/2/3), with Valkyrie amulet, a free fury build = same damage than berserker, only you have high armors and less HP. As you should know, for 4 ham hitting the target, you had to stay immobile and it required a little skill. The Ham was never doing insane damages, but I had the Axe for this…
Yesterday, I’ve done at least 10 Backbreaker hitting around 5,7k (so +7,7-8,3k with fire and air sigils) in 2 games, and often on engi’s & necro’s.
So, you still think, we deserve if we get hit by Pin Down ? There must be plenty of “noobs” in GW2 then… I hardly miss it. And the 3s of immo allows me to launch F1 + 3 and often I still have time to go 3 ham -> 4 -> “5” -> F1 -> 1 -> stomp.
By your logic, 1vs2 is unfair anyway so skills can be OP, it doesn’t matter? What if it is a bunker who’s waiting for help? And it won’t be soon 1vs2 anymore but 2vs2 or even 2vs3.
Pin Down

Please understand that the skill is working as intended – the active should maybe be changed somewhat but nobody has bothered with that and i think it’ll be a while before it happens.

And I do agree – other heals might need to be buffed slightly – but as they are they are still a viable alternative to HS since HS does not offer any form of burst healing. So if you’re getting spiked you’ve got nothing to fall back on.
The issue with this is that with a meta dominated by conditions pure damage spikes are few and far between so anti-spike healing is not really that much on demand – but that’s because of the meta and not the heal balancing itself.

If give HS an active that heals enough interesting => no more reason to give up HS! Because it will be a last resort and you only will use it when you know you are going to down. So to add a “active heal”, the HPS must be reduced a little. Otherwise, it will just be a huge buff for HS and no one ever will have interest in other heals. We do all agree that other heals need to be buffed. Or the meta getting nerfed!
Actually HS will heal for like 12k hp for 30s. Healing surge 6k-10k, CD 30s. Mending 5,4k : CD 20s.

Every class and every build can run those runes.

Every class and build can go theses runes, yes. But not every class & build can maintain 15-25 might stack easily.

pierwola.9602:

Asato.5479:

Well, it will cancel each other. Logically, if you get hit by a stun and your passive is to send back that stun to it’s launcher, if it’s launcher has a passive against stun too, it will trigger it; neither you and the Warrior will get stunned; so the Warrior at the end would have wasted a stun! Reaper’s Protection/Mirror of Anguish are working… As do Last Stand.
Maybe we need some clear icons that will show that the player has the passive or used it.

You are wrong. Necro/Mesmer will still receive the 1st CC.

Yeah you are right! It was late and I was little tired and misread . I guess that Last Stand will be a counter to these traits then. And for the moment, really not much Warriors go Last Stand, and it has a long CD to be really attractive. It shouldn’t be much trouble.

@Asato.

1. The other heals are not useless – HS has no active heal that’s any good. You can’t heal versus spike damage – the problem is that the PVP meta is so infested with conditions there’s no reason to take an anti-spike heal because you’ll very rarely encounter something that will spike your health down in one big hit.

It’s not that HS is making other heals useless – HS is the only viable heal in a condition spam dominated meta. The other heals are fine but sadly aren’t suited to what we have in pvp right now.

2. I have played other builds, with other weapons and nothing else comes close as viability. The sad fact remains that if you nerf hambow the other weapon options won’t suddenly become better or more appealing. You’ll simply nerf the best build down to a less effective level.

That’s not the way to promote build variety.
You want build variety? buff other builds so they’re as effective as hambow – but don’t nerf the only effective build down and expect people to play other builds because there’s really not what is going to happen.

3. 2v1 is unfair and you should stop trying to make skills seem OP by putting them in a 2 v 1 context.
Every skill is “OP” if its downside is negated. With the recent nerf Pin Down is a telegraphed skill on a long cooldown.
In a 1 v 1 context it is a fair skill. In 2 v 1 context it doesn’t matter because guess what – 2 v 1 isn’t supposed to be balanced.

Its downside is completely negated in this 2 v 1 setting by the fact that you’re not looking at the player that’s casting – does that mean the skill has no downside? No. It means the nature of the situation makes the skill better than usual since in that situation its down side is negated.
In a 2 v 1 situation this becomes true for almost any skill.

Take : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon%27s_Tooth – is it considered OP ? No. It takes 1 whole second for it to finish casting and hit – but in a 2 v 1 if you’re not looking it will hit you. Does that make it OP?

4. The HS active that we were promised was not about getting more heal on active – but by giving some other benefit that would serve as a trade-off for the passive sustain you were giving up by activating.

Nowhere was it stated and nowhere did I write that the active should simply receive more healing – if anything the active should apply some form of interesting and useful situational effect.
Which in turn means that if you use the skill you’ve lost the passive sustain ergo you’ve got lower HPS – so in a sense it’s a nerf and also a buff because it gives you a choice and creates active gameplay around the skill.

So why nerf the HP/s when the idea here is to create an useful active that is not more healing.

Harper- I just want to tell you as an ele main that Dragon’s Tooth won’t hit in a 2v1 any more than it will in a 1v1 or any other teamfight for that matter. It’s not quite the same style of telegraphing as Pin Down. Compare a giant flaming rock appearing over your head for a full second with a red circle to a targeted ability that only has an animation around the caster.

I get bothered when people start saying warriors have the highest telegraphing.
Giant elemental objects with sizable delays will always take the cake.

Not that this actually has any bearing on your post.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Harper- I just want to tell you as an ele main that Dragon’s Tooth won’t hit in a 2v1 any more than it will in a 1v1 or any other teamfight for that matter. It’s not quite the same style of telegraphing as Pin Down. Compare a giant flaming rock appearing over your head for a full second with a red circle to a targeted ability that only has an animation around the caster.

I get bothered when people start saying warriors have the highest telegraphing.
Giant elemental objects with sizable delays will always take the cake.

Not that this actually has any bearing on your post.

In all fairness usually you are concentrating on the player you are fighting, so many hammer attacks are completely readable telegraphs, a dragons tooth from an “outside source” when you’re focusing on your primary target, isn’t easy to see. Especially if it’s right above you. It’s not like you have to ground target it

Bowflex.4502:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Harper- I just want to tell you as an ele main that Dragon’s Tooth won’t hit in a 2v1 any more than it will in a 1v1 or any other teamfight for that matter. It’s not quite the same style of telegraphing as Pin Down. Compare a giant flaming rock appearing over your head for a full second with a red circle to a targeted ability that only has an animation around the caster.

I get bothered when people start saying warriors have the highest telegraphing.
Giant elemental objects with sizable delays will always take the cake.

Not that this actually has any bearing on your post.

In all fairness usually you are concentrating on the player you are fighting, so many hammer attacks are completely readable telegraphs, a dragons tooth from an “outside source” when you’re focusing on your primary target, isn’t easy to see. Especially if it’s right above you. It’s not like you have to ground target it

Yeah, you’re right about that. Especially considering that you don’t need LoS to cast it either.

It was super late and I was a bit tipsy.

That’s what i mean P Fun.

@Harper

-Now don’t start blaming me because I wrote a 2vs1 situation, it wrote it as an example. Remember what you have said? if you get hit, it’s because you deserve it. So it was an example to demonstrate your invalid argument to justify it’s long duration. And now your argument is “2vs1 is anyway unfair”. Don’t think everybody fighting at mid in the map “Legacy of the Foefire” (still an exemple) will easily be dodging every Pin Downs. And as a “intelligent” warrior, you won’t launch it on a target who still has full endurance or who’s in front of you and can see you launching the skill. So yes, I find it pretty easy to place. And it’s duration (3s) allows you to land bow-3 which deals great damages and you still have the time to come at melee and start the hammer combo (which is stun after stun;/ stun lock, the target is already lying down btw, you start stomping). And 25s isn’t really a so long CD… So yeah lower a little the immo’s duratin, for something like “2.25s from 3s”. It’s cast time is 0.75s and the arrow has rapid velocity; it’s not hard to land it.
And you cannot compare it to Dragon tooth since you have a huge animation and sound that appears just above your head xD.. and it doesn’t immobilize the target.

2. I have played other builds, with other weapons and nothing else comes close as viability. The sad fact remains that if you nerf hambow the other weapon options won’t suddenly become better or more appealing. You’ll simply nerf the best build down to a less effective level.

-You say that you have played other builds and none came close to be viable. Why is that? Less survive? No damage? Explain more the problems you have found. That will be more interesting to discuss and found out where are the real problems, where we need buffs.
I’ve recently tested a lot of builds recently too (and I don’t really find them really unviable. Just less effective and less sustain than hambow)
-Last one, and my favorite, being a mace/mace build : pros :
-really high single target damage if the foe is stunned (with fury = 46%crit; against stunned foes 78-96% crit chance; max ferocity ; mace-F1 + 3x mace-AA = insane damage, specially the third AA; switch axe/shield in order to stun and F1 which will crit 100% and do insane burst damage; sigil of intelligence is more here to guarantee a crit when the stun of the shield is on CD or fails to land)
-huge single target control/stunlock ability (you are able to completely disable target and making him completely useless during the while teamfight/fight, if he’s not already down)
-Nice sustain, good defensive ability (3100 armor, 2 block skills which reflect projectiles, Endure Pain, Berserker Stance, Dolyak signet)
-cons :
-18k hp and very vulnerable to conditions after that Berserker Stance runs out, since => no Cleanse Ire &/ longbow. / 0 condition cure. => 1vs1 can be difficult against heavy condi spammers (it is however highly possible to kill them during Berserker Stance or just after it, before they stack too many bleeding/burning ; only engi turret have caused me a real problem, they can easily temporize Berserker stance and Dolyak signet’s stability.)
-Lack of mobility ; no leap or immo. Must know if able to fully follow your desired target (an average knowledge about every class is welcome) or not, when to switch target, etc.
-Long duration stabilities and blocks are direct counter to this build (logically if cannot be disabled => less effectiveness; but however you can do nice damages, axe and his F1 are pretty good for this). So Guardians and Warriors will be the last targets! But it’s highly recommended to directly focus them if you know that they don’t have their CD’s (a good surprise is just after they stability). Care about Lich Form Necros and Ranger’s under their elite “Rampage as one”, they can’t be disabled during for ~20s.
-No might stack.
-I’ve tested also Ròm’s build, from TCG team who just won the ToL, yesterday.
(2/0/6/0/6) With Axe/Sword + Longbow weapon set. Rune of intelligence on axe => F1 100% crit, and it’s the main damage source. Longbow => might stack, immo 3s, AoE damage, Cleanse. Sword : it’s skill 4 deals pretty nice damages if taken back, skill 5=> block (it will continue to block all projectiles not only one if you aren’t at melee) and counter attack, if not, adrenaline is given. With Valkyrie / Soldier amulet (+dolyak signet) it is tanky and have really good sustain. The fact that someone won with another build proves in some way that Hambow is not the only one viable at high competitive level. Btw, he won all (or almost) of his duels, and mostly it was against hambow warriors.
When I’ve played it, I found it was a really good 1vs1 build. Most duels won without difficulty. It has one problem => no stun/KB/KD. So you can’t prevent an enemy from reviving his ally like you do with the hammer.

-This one was the first one that I created :
-pros:
-high mobility, easy target following. (immo from Leg specialist, and leap of the sword, lot of cripples)
-high burst damage ability : the combo from axe/mace : 5 (launched at melee = no time to dodge) -> 4 -> 2 -> F1 -> 10-15k damage dealt in ~2-3s ; and you can switch for additional 5-8k damage from sword-3 (if target under 50%hp! it equals lv3 Eviscerate).
-high DPS from axe’s AA. and mixed condi/direct damages from sword AA.
-interesting controls : immo sword-F1, mace-5, shield-4.
-really effective to down a bunker guardian.
- cons :
-squishy against direct damages. Must have Endure Pain, or Shield blocks or endurance to survive if focused.
-no cleanse against conditions. Berserker Stance must be available if going against heavy & bunker/tanky condi spam.
-After the above said combo : to finish your target, you must touch with sword-3 (100% crit, thx sigil of intelligence, so disabling AA is a good idea), which is easily dodged by good players, it would be like (before he heals and go above 50%hp) stun shield -> sword-3. The thing is Shield Bash is easily dodged too due to it’s animation lack/bug, even if you launch it at melee, at really short range (like, I’m glued to him), it will like “stay on place”/take like 0.5s before actually stun him.

What I note are : yes it is possible to have much more effective damage than hambow, it is possible to have more controls than hambow, it is possible to survive more than hambow; Healing Signet, Berserker Stance, Dolyak/Balanced/Endure P, are on every build; Cleanse Ire, Burst Master on most builds. Cleanse Ire+ Bow =>best solution against condi. If we look at the ratio damage dealt/CC dealt/sustain; hambow has the best ratio. But it doesn’t make the other builds completely unviable.
We also all agree that : without cleanse ire and berserker stance, we have a real problem against condi builders.. (I specially find the amount of blinds that other classes have really high!)

pierwola.9602:

“The Line”

Signet of Restoration: Grants health every time you cast a spell.
Signet of Vampirism: Heal when struck by a foe.
Signet of Malice: Heals when you attack.
Signet of the Ether: Gain Health every few seconds, based on the number of active illusions you control.

Warriors

Healing Signet: Grants regeneration.
Suggestion: Grants 4sec regeneration when you attack. Stack up to 3 sec.
—- —- —-
“The Line”

Reaper’s Protection: Inflicts AoE fear on foes when disabled.
Hide in Plain Sight: Gain Camouflage.
Hard to Catch: Shadowstep away and gain swiftness when disabled.
Mirror of Anguish: Copy the same effect back at your foe.
Autodefense Bomb Dispenser: Drops a Smoke Bomb when disabled.

Warriors

Last Stand: Negates the control effect and activates Balanced Stance.
Suggestion: Activates Balanced Stance after the 1st CC disappear.

last stand has 90 sec cool down, so its not good at all.

Signet of the Ether: Gain Health every few seconds, [b]based on the number of active illusions you control is in my experience much (much) better, since you can spam clones.(selfish)

Signet of Vampirism: Heal [b]when struck by a foe has such a good active, you target a guardian or warrior your team assists and leches. (team based)

the warriors healing sig is also slefish but its not as good as the two above.

My opinion on the situations… Last Stand is not a problem at all. In fact, it’s a trap. To kill someone with it up, just hit them with a ‘bogus’ CC as a distraction, delay until they lose their stability, then stun them for real. Or, use something other than CC against them.

Maybe it’s because I haven’t played much since the patch, and don’t do much PvP, but I’ve always preferred healing Surge over Healing Signet. Sure, the latter has greater HPS in theory, but healing surge can be used to spike adrenaline if you can mitigate damage and don’t need a big heal, or use a big heal with greater HPS in a short battle – The HPS from the HS is wasted when you’re sitting at full health before a fight, and needs the battle to last long enough for Healing Surge’s cooldown to matter.

nemka.1803:

pierwola.9602:

“The Line”

Signet of Restoration: Grants health every time you cast a spell.
Signet of Vampirism: Heal when struck by a foe.
Signet of Malice: Heals when you attack.
Signet of the Ether: Gain Health every few seconds, based on the number of active illusions you control.

Warriors

Healing Signet: Grants regeneration.
Suggestion: Grants 4sec regeneration when you attack. Stack up to 3 sec.
—- —- —-
“The Line”

Reaper’s Protection: Inflicts AoE fear on foes when disabled.
Hide in Plain Sight: Gain Camouflage.
Hard to Catch: Shadowstep away and gain swiftness when disabled.
Mirror of Anguish: Copy the same effect back at your foe.
Autodefense Bomb Dispenser: Drops a Smoke Bomb when disabled.

Warriors

Last Stand: Negates the control effect and activates Balanced Stance.
Suggestion: Activates Balanced Stance after the 1st CC disappear.

last stand has 90 sec cool down, so its not good at all.

Signet of the Ether: Gain Health every few seconds, [b]based on the number of active illusions you control is in my experience much (much) better, since you can spam clones.(selfish)

Signet of Vampirism: Heal [b]when struck by a foe has such a good active, you target a guardian or warrior your team assists and leches. (team based)

the warriors healing sig is also slefish but its not as good as the two above.

Are you really implying that healing signet with the highest HPS in the game is worse than signet of vampirism, a commonly mocked heal that heals for less than HS even when being hit? Really?

Really???