Guild Wars 2

Chill effects cooldowns of skills and eles “weapon swap mechanic” are essentially 4 skills.
So i am pretty sure it is intentional.

And by the way that is not the reason that eles are more likely to lose a fight then other professions…

Muchacho.2390:

Chill effects cooldowns of skills and eles “weapon swap mechanic” are essentially 4 skills.
So i am pretty sure it is intentional.

And by the way that is not the reason that eles are more likely to lose a fight then other professions…

Skills have some effect, damage, something. Elemental attunements have nothing. They are a weapon swap mechanic.

Just because they CAN get swiftness and fury doesn’t mean all eles use this. Most do, but its not an excuse to make eles the only class to have their weapon swap chilled.

I don’t think you know much about ele. It pretty much is the only reason I lose to necros.

Mbelch.9028:

Muchacho.2390:

Chill effects cooldowns of skills and eles “weapon swap mechanic” are essentially 4 skills.
So i am pretty sure it is intentional.

And by the way that is not the reason that eles are more likely to lose a fight then other professions…

Skills have some effect, damage, something. Elemental attunements have nothing. They are a weapon swap mechanic.

Just because they CAN get swiftness and fury doesn’t mean all eles use this. Most do, but its not an excuse to make eles the only class to have their weapon swap chilled.

I don’t think you know much about ele. It pretty much is the only reason I lose to necros.

Elemental attunements are skills like every profession mechanic. And the effect is that they change your 1-5 skills. With your argumentation kits of engies also wouldnt be skills (they also only change the 1-5 skills)…

And by the way necros arent the only ones that have chill, so are you impling that you also lose against those other professions?

Chill is definitely extremely strong against elementalists. It makes the thief steal ability extremely potent too. If you happen to leave water as they chill you it’s pretty much a loss at that very moment. If you take the condi clear heal goodluck getting it off through the billion dazes/basi venom.

I agree, chill is one of the most ridiculous things in game when applied to ele. I don’t see any other class getting weapon swap and corresponding sigil procs crippled by this condition. 66% is just far too much when applied to such a core mechanic, especially with how much chill necros can apply. Spinal shivers is just broken… 5s of chill * condi duration + 3 boon rip, and can be applied from trait AND skill. And too bad if you want to cleanse, since its now eons til you can switch to water or use ether renewal (not that you won’t be feared out of ER anyway with stability stripped). Might as well rename the skill to “ele bane”, since it excels at shutting down almost everything that lets an ele survive.

And it’s obvious that our attunements are not considered purely skills, given the fact that they DO proc weapon swap sigils.

Muchacho.2390:

Mbelch.9028:

Muchacho.2390:

Chill effects cooldowns of skills and eles “weapon swap mechanic” are essentially 4 skills.
So i am pretty sure it is intentional.

And by the way that is not the reason that eles are more likely to lose a fight then other professions…

Skills have some effect, damage, something. Elemental attunements have nothing. They are a weapon swap mechanic.

Just because they CAN get swiftness and fury doesn’t mean all eles use this. Most do, but its not an excuse to make eles the only class to have their weapon swap chilled.

I don’t think you know much about ele. It pretty much is the only reason I lose to necros.

Elemental attunements are skills like every profession mechanic. And the effect is that they change your 1-5 skills. With your argumentation kits of engies also wouldnt be skills (they also only change the 1-5 skills)…

And by the way necros arent the only ones that have chill, so are you impling that you also lose against those other professions?

Say hello to initiative, the profession mechanic that makes you completely immune to the cd increasing effects of chill.
Attunements are a profession mechanic that happens to be a unique type of a weapon swap and not a skill so it shouldn’t be affected by chill like all other weapon swaps.
Other profession mechanics are affected by chill because they are true skills. The ones that are not true skills should not be affected just like my initiative example.

Jabberwock.9014:

I agree, chill is one of the most ridiculous things in game when applied to ele. I don’t see any other class getting weapon swap and corresponding sigil procs crippled by this condition. 66% is just far too much when applied to such a core mechanic, especially with how much chill necros can apply. Spinal shivers is just broken… 5s of chill * condi duration + 3 boon rip, and can be applied from trait AND skill. And too bad if you want to cleanse, since its now eons til you can switch to water or use ether renewal (not that you won’t be feared out of ER anyway with stability stripped). Might as well rename the skill to “ele bane”, since it excels at shutting down almost everything that lets an ele survive.

And it’s obvious that our attunements are not considered purely skills, given the fact that they DO proc weapon swap sigils.

I also agree that chill can be devestating against eles and the question if chill should effect attunements may be justified (I never said it is good or bad), but it stands that that they are skills (and are coded as such) and so they interact with all things that interact with skills. So i think that Anet wanted attunements to be effected by chill, well until they say or do other wise.

And by the way kits of engies also proc weapon swap sigils and those are utility skills.

Muchacho.2390:

Jabberwock.9014:

I agree, chill is one of the most ridiculous things in game when applied to ele. I don’t see any other class getting weapon swap and corresponding sigil procs crippled by this condition. 66% is just far too much when applied to such a core mechanic, especially with how much chill necros can apply. Spinal shivers is just broken… 5s of chill * condi duration + 3 boon rip, and can be applied from trait AND skill. And too bad if you want to cleanse, since its now eons til you can switch to water or use ether renewal (not that you won’t be feared out of ER anyway with stability stripped). Might as well rename the skill to “ele bane”, since it excels at shutting down almost everything that lets an ele survive.

And it’s obvious that our attunements are not considered purely skills, given the fact that they DO proc weapon swap sigils.

I also agree that chill can be devestating against eles and the question if chill should effect attunements may be justified (I never said it is good or bad), but it stands that that they are skills (and are coded as such) and so they interact with all things that interact with skills. So i think that Anet wanted attunements to be effected by chill, well until they say or do other wise.

And by the way kits of engies also proc weapon swap sigils and those are utility skills.

I am pretty sure that Anet coded attunements the way they did because they needed to have them above the weapon skills and accessible with the F1-F4 keys like all other profession mechanics. I think that chill affecting attunements is a major oversight but I don’t know if it’s fixable or not.

Ganathar.4956:

Muchacho.2390:

Mbelch.9028:

Muchacho.2390:

Chill effects cooldowns of skills and eles “weapon swap mechanic” are essentially 4 skills.
So i am pretty sure it is intentional.

And by the way that is not the reason that eles are more likely to lose a fight then other professions…

Skills have some effect, damage, something. Elemental attunements have nothing. They are a weapon swap mechanic.

Just because they CAN get swiftness and fury doesn’t mean all eles use this. Most do, but its not an excuse to make eles the only class to have their weapon swap chilled.

I don’t think you know much about ele. It pretty much is the only reason I lose to necros.

Elemental attunements are skills like every profession mechanic. And the effect is that they change your 1-5 skills. With your argumentation kits of engies also wouldnt be skills (they also only change the 1-5 skills)…

And by the way necros arent the only ones that have chill, so are you impling that you also lose against those other professions?

Say hello to initiative, the profession mechanic that makes you completely immune to the cd increasing effects of chill.
Attunements are a profession mechanic that happens to be a unique type of a weapon swap and not a skill so it shouldn’t be affected by chill like all other weapon swaps.
Other profession mechanics are affected by chill because they are true skills. The ones that are not true skills should not be affected just like my initiative example.

Well initiative is not a skill and maybe i should have been more preciese when is wrote profession mechanics aka F1-F4 skills. And if i remember correctly chill used to effect initative at some point but Anet came to the conclusion that it was too punishing for thieves. So maybe they will change it for eles too.

Regarding Engineer kits: they don’t have a minimum 9-second cooldown, so the most damage that chill can do to the kit mechanic is add 0.66 seconds to the time before they can swap to another kit, rather than add several seconds to the time before they can access their necessary skills.

Muchacho.2390:

And by the way kits of engies also proc weapon swap sigils and those are utility skills.

My point is that anet handles special cases in the code so that attunement swaps and kits proc weapon swap sigils. That means they can likely just as easily code it so that attunement swap isn’t affected by chill. Unless their code base is completely convoluted they shouldn’t have to do much more put a case/switch statement in the code that disable’s chill’s effect in the case that the affected skill’s name is “fire” “water” “air” or “earth”.

chill doesn’t affect thief initiative, so it shouldn’t affect attunement swapping for eles. They made it not affect initiative because that would pretty much destroy the thief if they were chilled by crippling their entire class mechanic yet conveniently overlooked how crippling it is for eles. go figure.

As an Ele, I always assumed that Chill affected other player’s weapon swap.

Are you telling me that it doesn’t?

Ganathar.4956:

Muchacho.2390:

Jabberwock.9014:

I agree, chill is one of the most ridiculous things in game when applied to ele. I don’t see any other class getting weapon swap and corresponding sigil procs crippled by this condition. 66% is just far too much when applied to such a core mechanic, especially with how much chill necros can apply. Spinal shivers is just broken… 5s of chill * condi duration + 3 boon rip, and can be applied from trait AND skill. And too bad if you want to cleanse, since its now eons til you can switch to water or use ether renewal (not that you won’t be feared out of ER anyway with stability stripped). Might as well rename the skill to “ele bane”, since it excels at shutting down almost everything that lets an ele survive.

And it’s obvious that our attunements are not considered purely skills, given the fact that they DO proc weapon swap sigils.

I also agree that chill can be devestating against eles and the question if chill should effect attunements may be justified (I never said it is good or bad), but it stands that that they are skills (and are coded as such) and so they interact with all things that interact with skills. So i think that Anet wanted attunements to be effected by chill, well until they say or do other wise.

And by the way kits of engies also proc weapon swap sigils and those are utility skills.

I am pretty sure that Anet coded attunements the way they did because they needed to have them above the weapon skills and accessible with the F1-F4 keys like all other profession mechanics. I think that chill affecting attunements is a major oversight but I don’t know if it’s fixable or not.

Good reasoning. That’s exactly what I would have replied. I think they didn’t even consider chill when coding eles, and it hurts us now.

Muchacho, thanks for commenting from the necro prospective, but I do think you’re off. This doesn’t kill eles against thieves. It severely hurts them. It kills them vs necros.

Does chill affect an engi being able to get in and out of a kit?

Same concept. I’d argue the behavior should be consistent.

Ryld.1340:

As an Ele, I always assumed that Chill affected other player’s weapon swap.

Are you telling me that it doesn’t?

I’m in fact telling you it 100% doesn’t affect weapon swap for other classes, and it shouldn’t affect ours either.

Shockwave.1230:

Does chill affect an engi being able to get in and out of a kit?

Same concept. I’d argue the behavior should be consistent.

It does.

Mbelch.9028:

I’m in fact telling you it 100% doesn’t affect weapon swap for other classes, and it shouldn’t affect ours either.

I’m so upset about this. I always thought it was somewhat okay because at least it affected weapon swap.

This needs to be changed. Either have it affect all weapon swaps or no swaps.

Mbelch.9028:

Ganathar.4956:

Muchacho.2390:

Jabberwock.9014:

I agree, chill is one of the most ridiculous things in game when applied to ele. I don’t see any other class getting weapon swap and corresponding sigil procs crippled by this condition. 66% is just far too much when applied to such a core mechanic, especially with how much chill necros can apply. Spinal shivers is just broken… 5s of chill * condi duration + 3 boon rip, and can be applied from trait AND skill. And too bad if you want to cleanse, since its now eons til you can switch to water or use ether renewal (not that you won’t be feared out of ER anyway with stability stripped). Might as well rename the skill to “ele bane”, since it excels at shutting down almost everything that lets an ele survive.

And it’s obvious that our attunements are not considered purely skills, given the fact that they DO proc weapon swap sigils.

I also agree that chill can be devestating against eles and the question if chill should effect attunements may be justified (I never said it is good or bad), but it stands that that they are skills (and are coded as such) and so they interact with all things that interact with skills. So i think that Anet wanted attunements to be effected by chill, well until they say or do other wise.

And by the way kits of engies also proc weapon swap sigils and those are utility skills.

I am pretty sure that Anet coded attunements the way they did because they needed to have them above the weapon skills and accessible with the F1-F4 keys like all other profession mechanics. I think that chill affecting attunements is a major oversight but I don’t know if it’s fixable or not.

Good reasoning. That’s exactly what I would have replied. I think they didn’t even consider chill when coding eles, and it hurts us now.

Muchacho, thanks for commenting from the necro prospective, but I do think you’re off. This doesn’t kill eles against thieves. It severely hurts them. It kills them vs necros.

This is not only from a necro perspective. Even if Anet changes e. Attunements to not be effected by the chill cd effect and i would be ok if they changed it, it will not increase the chances of eles against necros much. Atleast this is my opinion coming from playing as ele against necros and as necro against eles. I simply think that eles are to weak right now due overnerfing and such a buff would not be enough.

You’re incorrect. Permanent chill is hurting D/D eles severely.

And yes, you’re coming from a necro point of view because that’s your class.

Mbelch.9028:

You’re incorrect. Permanent chill is hurting D/D eles severely.

And yes, you’re coming from a necro point of view because that’s your class.

Yes i play necro, but i also play also guardian, ele and engie. And i know from experiance that chill hurts eles the most off all professions and chill is supposed to hurt but i remember times when eles could beat necros even with all the chill necros have. In the past eles could deal with it now they cannot because of the nerfs…

Should be in the bug forum because if other profession mechanics arent affected by chill, which i dont think any are, then eles shouldnt either

Also tool kits are not really the engy mechanic, tool belt skills are. I dont remember if they are affected by chill or not, though they probably shouldnt be either.

On the question of the tool belt being affected by chill, it is indeed affected by chill, and honestly, the tool belt should be, because those are four more skills that the Engie gets.

On topic, I can easily see how chill can utterly destroy an Ele, especially when most of their condi cures are on one attunement, but I would like to say that if it’s changed so that Attunements aren’t affected by chill, then Engie kits shouldn’t be affected by chill either.

NinjaYoshi.3429:

On the question of the tool belt being affected by chill, it is indeed affected by chill, and honestly, the tool belt should be, because those are four more skills that the Engie gets.

On topic, I can easily see how chill can utterly destroy an Ele, especially when most of their condi cures are on one attunement, but I would like to say that if it’s changed so that Attunements aren’t affected by chill, then Engie kits shouldn’t be affected by chill either.

Wouldn’t mind if chill didn’t affect kits but it wouldn’t be a big change because chill barely does anything to kits anyway.

Then chill should also not apply to death shroud cooldowns, shatter cooldowns, kit and toolbelt cooldowns, pet cooldowns, virtue cooldowns, burst skill cooldowns…

That’s pretty lame.

Atunements swaps are weapon swaps. If other classes don’t get weapon swaps effected by chill then why eles.

If you’re saying they’re not weapon swaps then eles only have one weapon set, so give them two to swap around.

Ele’s have huge cooldowns purposely as they can swap around 4 different bars to use. If normal classes had similar cooldowns you’d find you’d be stuck spamming auto attack for 40 seconds at a time at a time.

Glad to see the support here.

Yes, engineer kits also shouldn’t be affected, but at the same time, they aren’t affected too much by chill since the cd is so low.

I think this should also go in bugs, but I’d like to get official comments here.

Roe.3679:

Then chill should also not apply to death shroud cooldowns, shatter cooldowns, kit and toolbelt cooldowns, pet cooldowns, virtue cooldowns, burst skill cooldowns…

That makes no sense at all, switching ele attunements is actually comparable to switching weapons. And while I don’t really agree that making them immune to chill is the answer, and instead making weapon swaps affected by chill. I also think that the amount of chill being thrown around should be toned down.

Linc.6834:

Roe.3679:

Then chill should also not apply to death shroud cooldowns, shatter cooldowns, kit and toolbelt cooldowns, pet cooldowns, virtue cooldowns, burst skill cooldowns…

That makes no sense at all, switching ele attunements is actually comparable to switching weapons. And while I don’t really agree that making them immune to chill is the answer, and instead making weapon swaps affected by chill. I also think that the amount of chill being thrown around should be toned down.

I think our difference in opinions on what to change is respectable, but I do think chill shouldn’t affect either.

I can see your side though. If the amount of chill thrown was a lot less, I would be a lot more fine with other classes having wep swap affected by chill, and eles not changing.

One way or another, I think we need an answer. There’s a huge imbalance here. Eles need to know what will happen with this.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll

runeblade.7514:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll

Ha.
Hahaha.
This is pretty much exactly like saying, “your build doesn’t do enough damage? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Powerful_Banners”

After looking at the warrior trait page for like ten minutes, I couldn’t really find any traits I wouldn’t like to steal for my ele, which is kind of disturbing, outside of the above.

Seriously though, you don’t point out one of our single worst traits to say we have ways of dealing with a specific condition, especially when you ignore the entire argument.
It’s not about ways to deal with chill, it’s about the fact that chill hurts eles more than any other class by a huge margin.

Linc.6834:

Roe.3679:

Then chill should also not apply to death shroud cooldowns, shatter cooldowns, kit and toolbelt cooldowns, pet cooldowns, virtue cooldowns, burst skill cooldowns…

That makes no sense at all, switching ele attunements is actually comparable to switching weapons. And while I don’t really agree that making them immune to chill is the answer, and instead making weapon swaps affected by chill. I also think that the amount of chill being thrown around should be toned down.

I see the issue more as being that eles need better condition removal options rather than some special treatment in regards to chill, which I don’t think is as common as you insinuate. Thieves are already largely unaffected by chill, we don’t need another class like that.

Roe.3679:

Linc.6834:

Roe.3679:

Then chill should also not apply to death shroud cooldowns, shatter cooldowns, kit and toolbelt cooldowns, pet cooldowns, virtue cooldowns, burst skill cooldowns…

That makes no sense at all, switching ele attunements is actually comparable to switching weapons. And while I don’t really agree that making them immune to chill is the answer, and instead making weapon swaps affected by chill. I also think that the amount of chill being thrown around should be toned down.

I see the issue more as being that eles need better condition removal options rather than some special treatment in regards to chill, which I don’t think is as common as you insinuate. Thieves are already largely unaffected by chill, we don’t need another class like that.

It would change us from being more affected by chill than everyone else to equally affected by chill to six of the other seven classes (thief of course just doesn’t care).

P Fun Daddy.1208:

runeblade.7514:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll

Ha.
Hahaha.
This is pretty much exactly like saying, “your build doesn’t do enough damage? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Powerful_Banners”

After looking at the warrior trait page for like ten minutes, I couldn’t really find any traits I wouldn’t like to steal for my ele, which is kind of disturbing, outside of the above.

Seriously though, you don’t point out one of our single worst traits to say we have ways of dealing with a specific condition, especially when you ignore the entire argument.
It’s not about ways to deal with chill, it’s about the fact that chill hurts eles more than any other class by a huge margin.

Not really, it is more like, are you being crippled all the time? Bring Dogged March, or are you being CC all the time? Bring stability.

You say that chill hurts ele in a large margin. I counter that argument with a way to deal with it. So no, I didn’t ignore the entire argument, only you ignored your counter argument to deal with chill.

This is honestly a difficult one.

On one hand, its Ele’s equivelant or replacement of a weaponswap. But on the otherhand, its your profession mechanic.

6 out of 8 professions dont suffer from Chill in their weaponswap. But then again, 7 out of 8 do suffer from Chill with their class mechanic. And Thief suffers to a lesser extend, as Steal isnt really completely their profession mechanic but Initiative is.

So changing Attunements to not suffer from Chill would mean their “weaponswap” doesnt suffer from Chill, but it also means they are the only profession who’s profession mechanic is completely unaffected by Chill.

Its not as simple as people make it out, because the Ele profession mechanic is also their weaponswap.
Considering the current state of Ele’s i’d say such a buff would certainly not be uncalled for. And i would call it a buff as i do not believe its actually an oversight.

But it wouldnt make Ele equally affected as other professions, but it would make them less effected then most professions. Who still suffer Chill on their profession mechanic.

Terrahero.9358:

This is honestly a difficult one.

On one hand, its Ele’s equivelant or replacement of a weaponswap. But on the otherhand, its your profession mechanic.

6 out of 8 professions dont suffer from Chill in their weaponswap. But then again, 7 out of 8 do suffer from Chill with their class mechanic. And Thief suffers to a lesser extend, as Steal isnt really completely their profession mechanic but Initiative is.

So changing Attunements to not suffer from Chill would mean their “weaponswap” doesnt suffer from Chill, but it also means they are the only profession who’s profession mechanic is completely unaffected by Chill.

Its not as simple as people make it out, because the Ele profession mechanic is also their weaponswap.
Considering the current state of Ele’s i’d say such a buff would certainly not be uncalled for. And i would call it a buff as i do not believe its actually an oversight.

But it wouldnt make Ele equally affected as other professions, but it would make them less effected then most professions. Who still suffer Chill on their profession mechanic.

This is a decent assessment. I will say I don’t think they thought about it when they were making our class mechanic the ability to swap attunements.

I would say.. Eles would be equally affected by chill still, as our super high cool downs on everything are even higher with chill.

And I’d be happy at that point.

runeblade.7514:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

runeblade.7514:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll

Ha.
Hahaha.
This is pretty much exactly like saying, “your build doesn’t do enough damage? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Powerful_Banners”

After looking at the warrior trait page for like ten minutes, I couldn’t really find any traits I wouldn’t like to steal for my ele, which is kind of disturbing, outside of the above.

Seriously though, you don’t point out one of our single worst traits to say we have ways of dealing with a specific condition, especially when you ignore the entire argument.
It’s not about ways to deal with chill, it’s about the fact that chill hurts eles more than any other class by a huge margin.

Not really, it is more like, are you being crippled all the time? Bring Dogged March, or are you being CC all the time? Bring stability.

You say that chill hurts ele in a large margin. I counter that argument with a way to deal with it. So no, I didn’t ignore the entire argument, only you ignored your counter argument to deal with chill.

So let me sum up your argument and its premises in relation to the general argument of this thread and its premises:

Thread Argument:
Premises:
1) Elementalists are more affected than other classes by chill.
2) This is because chill affects our weapon swaps where it doesn’t affect that of other classes.
Conclusion:
Therefore attunement swaps should not be affected by chill so that elementalists are affected equally.

Your Counterargument:
Premises:
1) Elementalists have ways to counter chill, whether or not they are effective.

Conclusion:
Elementalists therefore do not need their attunement swaps to be unaffected by chill.

The problem with your above argument is twofold. Firstly, it is a prime example of a non sequitur, an argumentative fallacy where the conclusion does not follow from the premise. Having counters to a condition does not mean in any sense that that condition affects you as much as it does other classes, nor that it does so fairly.

The second problem with your argument is that it does not in fact address the original argument. While the original argument is talking about the inequality in how a condition affects a class (chill affects elementalists’ weapon swaps, but does not affect that of other classes), your argument is against that class being unable to cope with that condition (“chill hurts ele in a large margin” is how you summed up our arguments). This again is a prime example of an argumentative fallacy, this time a straw man argument, which entails misrepresenting an argument/topic so that you can thereby more easily counter it.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

runeblade.7514:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

runeblade.7514:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll

Ha.
Hahaha.
This is pretty much exactly like saying, “your build doesn’t do enough damage? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Powerful_Banners”

After looking at the warrior trait page for like ten minutes, I couldn’t really find any traits I wouldn’t like to steal for my ele, which is kind of disturbing, outside of the above.

Seriously though, you don’t point out one of our single worst traits to say we have ways of dealing with a specific condition, especially when you ignore the entire argument.
It’s not about ways to deal with chill, it’s about the fact that chill hurts eles more than any other class by a huge margin.

Not really, it is more like, are you being crippled all the time? Bring Dogged March, or are you being CC all the time? Bring stability.

You say that chill hurts ele in a large margin. I counter that argument with a way to deal with it. So no, I didn’t ignore the entire argument, only you ignored your counter argument to deal with chill.

So let me sum up your argument and its premises in relation to the general argument of this thread and its premises:

Thread Argument:
Premises:
1) Elementalists are more affected than other classes by chill.
2) This is because chill affects our weapon swaps where it doesn’t affect that of other classes.
Conclusion:
Therefore attunement swaps should not be affected by chill so that elementalists are affected equally.

Your Counterargument:
Premises:
1) Elementalists have ways to counter chill, whether or not they are effective.

Conclusion:
Elementalists therefore do not need their attunement swaps to be unaffected by chill.

The problem with your above argument is twofold. Firstly, it is a prime example of a non sequitur, an argumentative fallacy where the conclusion does not follow from the premise. Having counters to a condition does not mean in any sense that that condition affects you as much as it does other classes, nor that it does so fairly.

The second problem with your argument is that it does not in fact address the original argument. While the original argument is talking about the inequality in how a condition affects a class (chill affects elementalists’ weapon swaps, but does not affect that of other classes), your argument is against that class being unable to cope with that condition (“chill hurts ele in a large margin” is how you summed up our arguments). This again is a prime example of an argumentative fallacy, this time a straw man argument, which entails misrepresenting an argument/topic so that you can thereby more easily counter it.

Logic. All the logic. All over. Please comment on all my threads. Lol.

Terrahero.9358:

This is honestly a difficult one.

On one hand, its Ele’s equivelant or replacement of a weaponswap. But on the otherhand, its your profession mechanic.

6 out of 8 professions dont suffer from Chill in their weaponswap. But then again, 7 out of 8 do suffer from Chill with their class mechanic. And Thief suffers to a lesser extend, as Steal isnt really completely their profession mechanic but Initiative is.

So changing Attunements to not suffer from Chill would mean their “weaponswap” doesnt suffer from Chill, but it also means they are the only profession who’s profession mechanic is completely unaffected by Chill.

Its not as simple as people make it out, because the Ele profession mechanic is also their weaponswap.
Considering the current state of Ele’s i’d say such a buff would certainly not be uncalled for. And i would call it a buff as i do not believe its actually an oversight.

But it wouldnt make Ele equally affected as other professions, but it would make them less effected then most professions. Who still suffer Chill on their profession mechanic.

If attunements where not affected by chill Elementalists would be affected by chill the same as any other class. Do not forget that having extra skills is part of the attunement profession mechanic and that all of the extra elementalist skills would still have a longer cooldown with chill.

For example a warrior gets his cooldown increased on his 8 weapon skills (autos don’t count), 1 heal, 3 utilities, 1 elite and 2 adrenaline skills.
An Ele gets his cooldown increased on his 1 heal, 3 utilities, 1 elite and 16 weapon skills.

Ganathar.4956:

Terrahero.9358:

This is honestly a difficult one.

On one hand, its Ele’s equivelant or replacement of a weaponswap. But on the otherhand, its your profession mechanic.

6 out of 8 professions dont suffer from Chill in their weaponswap. But then again, 7 out of 8 do suffer from Chill with their class mechanic. And Thief suffers to a lesser extend, as Steal isnt really completely their profession mechanic but Initiative is.

So changing Attunements to not suffer from Chill would mean their “weaponswap” doesnt suffer from Chill, but it also means they are the only profession who’s profession mechanic is completely unaffected by Chill.

Its not as simple as people make it out, because the Ele profession mechanic is also their weaponswap.
Considering the current state of Ele’s i’d say such a buff would certainly not be uncalled for. And i would call it a buff as i do not believe its actually an oversight.

But it wouldnt make Ele equally affected as other professions, but it would make them less effected then most professions. Who still suffer Chill on their profession mechanic.

If attunements where not affected by chill Elementalists would be affected by chill the same as any other class. Do not forget that having extra skills is part of the attunement profession mechanic and that all of the extra elementalist skills would still have a longer cooldown with chill.

For example a warrior gets his cooldown increased on his 8 weapon skills (autos don’t count), 1 heal, 3 utilities, 1 elite and 2 adrenaline skills.
An Ele gets his cooldown increased on his 1 heal, 3 utilities, 1 elite and 16 weapon skills.

Well thats the part thats subject for debate.

If Eles get chill to not affect attunements, then my engineer has chill affecting his weaponswap AND his class mechanic of Toolbelt. Ele would have chill not affect his weaponswap or his class mechanic, as they are both and the same.

Thats why this subject depends on how you approach it. Is attunement a class mechanic or a weaponswap. And thats really just a matter of opinion at this point.

One way or another, Ele is getting a special situation where either their swap is affected by chill, or their class mechanic isnt affected by chill.

runeblade.7514:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

runeblade.7514:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop,_Drop,_and_Roll

Ha.
Hahaha.
This is pretty much exactly like saying, “your build doesn’t do enough damage? http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Powerful_Banners”

After looking at the warrior trait page for like ten minutes, I couldn’t really find any traits I wouldn’t like to steal for my ele, which is kind of disturbing, outside of the above.

Seriously though, you don’t point out one of our single worst traits to say we have ways of dealing with a specific condition, especially when you ignore the entire argument.
It’s not about ways to deal with chill, it’s about the fact that chill hurts eles more than any other class by a huge margin.

Not really, it is more like, are you being crippled all the time? Bring Dogged March, or are you being CC all the time? Bring stability.

You say that chill hurts ele in a large margin. I counter that argument with a way to deal with it. So no, I didn’t ignore the entire argument, only you ignored your counter argument to deal with chill.

You are comparing a cheap 10 point Adept trait (which is arguably a “Best in Slot” trait) on a mandatory trait line to a 20 point Master trait which nobody ever uses because there are lots of better traits available at that point.

As simple as I can see it, Chill cripples Elementalists the most. You can argue that Engineers get their toolbelt skills crippled too but it’s a general knowledge that Elementalists is the class that relies most on its class mechanics (Thief class mechanic is Steal, initiative doesn’t get affected by chill). Engineers don’t use their toolbelt skills every time it is out of CD.

Terrahero.9358:

Ganathar.4956:

Terrahero.9358:

This is honestly a difficult one.

On one hand, its Ele’s equivelant or replacement of a weaponswap. But on the otherhand, its your profession mechanic.

6 out of 8 professions dont suffer from Chill in their weaponswap. But then again, 7 out of 8 do suffer from Chill with their class mechanic. And Thief suffers to a lesser extend, as Steal isnt really completely their profession mechanic but Initiative is.

So changing Attunements to not suffer from Chill would mean their “weaponswap” doesnt suffer from Chill, but it also means they are the only profession who’s profession mechanic is completely unaffected by Chill.

Its not as simple as people make it out, because the Ele profession mechanic is also their weaponswap.
Considering the current state of Ele’s i’d say such a buff would certainly not be uncalled for. And i would call it a buff as i do not believe its actually an oversight.

But it wouldnt make Ele equally affected as other professions, but it would make them less effected then most professions. Who still suffer Chill on their profession mechanic.

If attunements where not affected by chill Elementalists would be affected by chill the same as any other class. Do not forget that having extra skills is part of the attunement profession mechanic and that all of the extra elementalist skills would still have a longer cooldown with chill.

For example a warrior gets his cooldown increased on his 8 weapon skills (autos don’t count), 1 heal, 3 utilities, 1 elite and 2 adrenaline skills.
An Ele gets his cooldown increased on his 1 heal, 3 utilities, 1 elite and 16 weapon skills.

Well thats the part thats subject for debate.

If Eles get chill to not affect attunements, then my engineer has chill affecting his weaponswap AND his class mechanic of Toolbelt. Ele would have chill not affect his weaponswap or his class mechanic, as they are both and the same.

Thats why this subject depends on how you approach it. Is attunement a class mechanic or a weaponswap. And thats really just a matter of opinion at this point.

One way or another, Ele is getting a special situation where either their swap is affected by chill, or their class mechanic isnt affected by chill.

It’s not debatable at all as attunements exist purely as a way to give the Elementalist additional skills just like warriors get extra skills from adrenaline and thieves from steal. Those classes do not have their extra skills affected by chill in two ways like the ele.

Also, unlike attunements and weapon swap, kits are a choice and are not mandatory just like Elementalist conjures which are also affected by chill.
Another point worth mentioning is that the effects of chill are almost not noticable on kits due to the super low cooldown.

Toolbelt skills are additional skills just like the extra 8 ele’s get due to attunement swapping so they should be affected by chill just like all other skills.

So keep in mind that attunements are simply a weapon swap and that the true class mechanic is the ability to use 8 extra weapon skills by having extra swaps.

Our class mechanic isn’t extra skills like your tool belt… Our class mechanic is a weapon swap.

Logically, if weapon swaps ARENT supposed to be affected (see all classes) then neither should Ele! Even if they are “one in the same,” like you said, we don’t get extra effects like stealth and such off the attunement mechanic.

If once we used our swap, for example to fire, that fire swap turned into a usable skill like “Hurl fire spike” then I would be okay with the double cooldown hit.

But for the moment, eles are hit doubly hard.

Look at it like this. Not only is our weapon swapping kittened, but our abnormally long cooldowns are also kittened by this.

And we only have those abnormally long cooldowns BECAUSE of the way we get extra skills. So you’re basically saying kitten ele in two directions, when really we should only be kittened in one direction — the same one each class is; skills.

Mbelch.9028:

Our class mechanic isn’t extra skills like your tool belt… Our class mechanic is a weapon swap.

Logically, if weapon swaps ARENT supposed to be affected (see all classes) then neither should Ele! Even if they are “one in the same,” like you said, we don’t get extra effects like stealth and such off the attunement mechanic.

If once we used our swap, for example to fire, that fire swap turned into a usable skill like “Hurl fire spike” then I would be okay with the double cooldown hit.

But for the moment, eles are hit doubly hard.

Look at it like this. Not only is our weapon swapping kittened, but our abnormally long cooldowns are also kittened by this.

And we only have those abnormally long cooldowns BECAUSE of the way we get extra skills. So you’re basically saying kitten ele in two directions, when really we should only be kittened in one direction — the same one each class is; skills.

While it may your weapon swap, the additional skills add by design might just balanced around that interaction with chill. Or look at it as cost of doing business like ranger pets being unresponsive or warrior getting the best tools with no/few penalties/trade-offs.

Bran.7425:

Mbelch.9028:

Our class mechanic isn’t extra skills like your tool belt… Our class mechanic is a weapon swap.

Logically, if weapon swaps ARENT supposed to be affected (see all classes) then neither should Ele! Even if they are “one in the same,” like you said, we don’t get extra effects like stealth and such off the attunement mechanic.

If once we used our swap, for example to fire, that fire swap turned into a usable skill like “Hurl fire spike” then I would be okay with the double cooldown hit.

But for the moment, eles are hit doubly hard.

Look at it like this. Not only is our weapon swapping kittened, but our abnormally long cooldowns are also kittened by this.

And we only have those abnormally long cooldowns BECAUSE of the way we get extra skills. So you’re basically saying kitten ele in two directions, when really we should only be kittened in one direction — the same one each class is; skills.

While it may your weapon swap, the additional skills add by design might just balanced around that interaction with chill. Or look at it as cost of doing business like ranger pets being unresponsive or warrior getting the best tools with no/few penalties/trade-offs.

Profession mechanics do not come at a cost unless they are badly designed. The ranger pet example is very bad because Rangers and Eles were voted the two classes that need help the most in the CDI thread.
Guess what they have in common? A broken class mechanic that has unnecessary tradeoffs.
I ask you why should classes with chill be the only ones that have this extra benefit against the ele if it’s supposed to balance the amount of skills? The answer is that that they shouldn’t and that eles already suffer longer cooldowns than other professions to balance the fact that they have more skills even though they are the squishiest.

phaeris.7604:

That’s pretty lame.

Atunements swaps are weapon swaps. If other classes don’t get weapon swaps effected by chill then why eles.

If you’re saying they’re not weapon swaps then eles only have one weapon set, so give them two to swap around.

Ele’s have huge cooldowns purposely as they can swap around 4 different bars to use. If normal classes had similar cooldowns you’d find you’d be stuck spamming auto attack for 40 seconds at a time at a time.

this ^

Played a 10 hour session of solo queues yesterday and I can’t express how much of a great change this would be to elementalists. Chill is just insanely strong against elementalists.

Chill is ultra strong against Elementalists for the reasons already stated above. I am on board with normalising our weapon swaps to be immune from Chill, as it is and as it should be across all classes.

I’m glad for the support. Let’s get a comment from the Devs on this. I personally think our attunements should be moved to where the weapon swap button would be normally. Then people wouldn’t be able to say anything about our weapon swap being a “skill” when it isn’t.

Bran, that logic is just awful. That logic is like saying, “well it doesn’t matter that you’re sick because other people are sick too.” In a hospital you know that wouldn’t fly. It shouldn’t fly here either.