Guild Wars 2

Hey Anet,

we gonna see any changes to conditions meta any time soon? You guys were soooo eager to nerf direct dmg in wvw but idk if you are aware, conditions rule pvp/wvw side of this game atm.

I think condition dmg needs to be reworked and be similar to direct dmg: if you want to do dmg you have to run power/prec.. for condis atm condi stats alone is already more than enough.

Furthermore, while direct dmg builds rely on direct dmg and hardly get any profit from conditions, condi builds profit from condi and still do certain amount of direct dmg.

I would propose following changes:

1. make condis tick slower (see pt. 2 why) and reduce duration

2. I think condi stat needs to be split in 2:
- condi dmg: stat needs to have value lowered (by half for example, arguable) but do the same what it does now – make condi tick for higher dmg
- condi haste: makes conditions tick faster.. i understand that controll condis like confusion and fear won’t profit from it but that way the players would be more interested in stacking condi duration

3. Add condi/condi haste/condi duration armor(kind of like zerker)… you still can run dire/rabid but since condi dmg stats itself would get lowered, stacking that set alone shouldn’t provide as good; condi/prec gear needs to be removed imo, but it is arguable

4. amount of condi stacks you can get on player should be lowered

5. PVE only (wvw should stay as pvp): players should have own condi stack on NPC. Meaning: i play necro, my teammate is thief, i have 15 stacks of bleeds on NPC, thief has own 10 stacks of bleed on NPC. In any other MMO i have played so far it was common practice and DoTs were pretty good in pve, idk why it is not the case in gw2.

6. spells that apply high amount of condi stacks, should have low direct dmg coefficient (arguable)

7. condi food needs values lowered, by a lot

8. spells/traits that apply burning need to have higher costs…some of them right now (hello IP) are too easy to apply

Side note: this suggestions are not something new tbh, in wow for example i played warlock (which is pure condi necro basically) and they were pretty good in pve simply because of own stacks of condis and condi haste.

P.S. sry for bad english

This is definitely a well thought out argument, seems pretty sound to me. As condi stands right now, it is definitely much more powerful in pvp/wvw than a direct damage build of any kind, which is why you see everyone running condi builds.

I think many of the fixes you suggest could work, and should definitely be looked at, especially that personal stacking condis idea for pve, it would really fix the problem of groups only allowing one condi user into a party, if they even allow that. As it is, Anet is simply buffing condis over and over while lowering regular dps, when the only place condis are hurting is pve, why they have not gone to the system they had in gw1 (skills with different effects in pve/pvp) is beyond me.

One thing that may need to be added is something to address condi tanks as well, because the loss to damage for specializing in this type of build is none/minimal, in other words, you can still do INSANE amounts of damage while being a super tank that can survive practically anything. If you take a look at someone playing a power tank, or look at any bunker guardian, you will think to youself, why does anyone play that spec when they can’t do any damage whatsoever, and could get just as good defense, and multiply their offense by a mole, if they played condi tank.

What about hybrid builds ?

pierwola.9602:

What about hybrid builds ?

Where do you see a problem?

I hope that in return for all this condition removers don’t remove damaging conditions?

better add vitality as dmg reducer like toughness to direct dmg

Why do people always claim that “everybody runs condition specs”?

Pvp: Thieves, Guardians, Mesmers, Eles have no viable condition specs. Warriors have, but primarily run hambow. Condi necro will be pretty much eliminated after the next patch (and already there are more mm and power than condition necros ). You have a point for engis and rangers, but there simply isn’t a viable power alternative for them.

Wvw: Condition builds are popular for pure roamers. Even for them i see a lot more power than condition specs. The other 99% of the wvw population that switch between small and large scale don’t run condition specs because they are useless in big battles.

Cynz.9437:

Hey Anet,

we gonna see any changes to conditions meta any time soon? You guys were soooo eager to nerf direct dmg in wvw but idk if you are aware, conditions rule pvp/wvw side of this game atm.

I argued that this is simply not the case. Since it is your core argument i didn’t bother to comment on the specifics.

Cynz.9437:

I think condition dmg needs to be reworked and be similar to direct dmg: if you want to do dmg you have to run power/prec.. for condis atm condi stats alone is already more than enough.

Dire is a strong defensive set, but condition specs profit from both power and precision (a solid crit chance of ~20-30% is needed for engis and necros to trigger burning reliably). Pure dire specs don’t have the amazing damage output you make it appear.

Cynz.9437:

Furthermore, while direct dmg builds rely on direct dmg and hardly get any profit from conditions, condi builds profit from condi and still do certain amount of direct dmg.

Conditions do a base damage at lvl 80, the same as weapon skills for condition specs.

Cynz.9437:

1. make condis tick slower (see pt. 2 why) and reduce duration

2. I think condi stat needs to be split in 2:
- condi dmg: stat needs to have value lowered (by half for example, arguable) but do the same what it does now – make condi tick for higher dmg
- condi haste: makes conditions tick faster.. i understand that controll condis like confusion and fear won’t profit from it but that way the players would be more interested in stacking condi duration

I’m not entirely sure on the values you imagine, but cutting condition damage by ~2/3 seems a bit … extreme.
That is if i would even agree with the basic assumption that conditions are overpowered.

Cynz.9437:

3. Add condi/condi haste/condi duration armor(kind of like zerker)… you still can run dire/rabid but since condi dmg stats itself would get lowered, stacking that set alone shouldn’t provide as good; condi/prec gear needs to be removed imo, but it is arguable

Same as nr.2. It’s an extreme “solution” to a nonissue.

Cynz.9437:

4. amount of condi stacks you can get on player should be lowered

I can’t remember the last time i’ve been in a situation where i’ve had 25 stacks of anything on me in a pvp scenario.

Cynz.9437:

5. PVE only (wvw should stay as pvp): players should have own condi stack on NPC. Meaning: i play necro, my teammate is thief, i have 15 stacks of bleeds on NPC, thief has own 10 stacks of bleed on NPC. In any other MMO i have played so far it was common practice and DoTs were pretty good in pve, idk why it is not the case in gw2.

Okay (i really don’t care about pve).

Cynz.9437:

6. spells that apply high amount of condi stacks, should have low direct dmg coefficient (arguable)

What spells specifically are you talking about?

Cynz.9437:

7. condi food needs values lowered, by a lot

I actually do agree as long as it entails both plus and minus condition duration.

Cynz.9437:

8. spells/traits that apply burning need to have higher costs…some of them right now (hello IP) are too easy to apply

Dhuumfire will be almost useless after the patch. Ip has been made a master trait. I don’t like the design of the traits myself.

Monkeymonger.9235:

Why do people always claim that “everybody runs condition specs”?

Pvp: Thieves, Guardians, Mesmers, Eles have no viable condition specs. Warriors have, but primarily run hambow. Condi necro will be pretty much eliminated after the next patch (and already there are more mm and power than condition necros ). You have a point for engis and rangers, but there simply isn’t a viable power alternative for them.

Wvw: Condition builds are popular for pure roamers. Even for them i see a lot more power than condition specs. The other 99% of the wvw population that switch between small and large scale don’t run condition specs because they are useless in big battles.

I see a lot of thieves and mesmers running condis in pvp, guards, obviously not because they CANT, the only damage condi they have access to is burning, if there were a possible way to make a condi guard viable, people would do it. eles are the same, they can reliably apply burning, but other than that have minimal access to other dps condis, and again, if there WAS a way for them to use a condi build, you would see loads of them.

condi IS the meta, and it is such, because people can spec for condi without losing either A)their tanky survivability or B) their high dps with power prec condi (i.e. hambow) and because people cant reduce the damage of condis by being tanky.

one of the biggest reasons condi is so strong is that many classes dont have very much condi removal, or to get it they have to spec completely towards condi removal, which makes the build practically useless. Add on the fact that you can get insane durations using runes/traits/food, AND can reapply every condi that someone had on them right after they do use their mandatory removals and it becomes ridiculous.

Fistful Of Bacon.3046:

Monkeymonger.9235:

Why do people always claim that “everybody runs condition specs”?

Pvp: Thieves, Guardians, Mesmers, Eles have no viable condition specs. Warriors have, but primarily run hambow. Condi necro will be pretty much eliminated after the next patch (and already there are more mm and power than condition necros ). You have a point for engis and rangers, but there simply isn’t a viable power alternative for them.

Wvw: Condition builds are popular for pure roamers. Even for them i see a lot more power than condition specs. The other 99% of the wvw population that switch between small and large scale don’t run condition specs because they are useless in big battles.

I see a lot of thieves and mesmers running condis in pvp, guards, obviously not because they CANT, the only damage condi they have access to is burning, if there were a possible way to make a condi guard viable, people would do it. eles are the same, they can reliably apply burning, but other than that have minimal access to other dps condis, and again, if there WAS a way for them to use a condi build, you would see loads of them.

condi IS the meta, and it is such, because people can spec for condi without losing either A)their tanky survivability or their high dps with power prec condi (i.e. hambow) and because people cant reduce the damage of condis by being tanky.

one of the biggest reasons condi is so strong is that many classes dont have very much condi removal, or to get it they have to spec completely towards condi removal, which makes the build practically useless. Add on the fact that you can get insane durations using runes/traits/food, AND can reapply every condi that someone had on them right after they do use their mandatory removals and it becomes ridiculous.

couple the fact theres no condi damage reducing traits and such and that it completely ignores armor and yeah everyone go run dire gear

Cynz.9437:

1. make condis tick slower (see pt. 2 why) and reduce duration

Everything in the game is set on a “clock” so to speak, and I think messing with a 1s count is a bad idea for a long list of reasons

Cynz.9437:

2. I think condi stat needs to be split in 2:
- condi dmg: stat needs to have value lowered (by half for example, arguable) but do the same what it does now – make condi tick for higher dmg
- condi haste: makes conditions tick faster.. i understand that controll condis like confusion and fear won’t profit from it but that way the players would be more interested in stacking condi duration

I feel your jumping to conclusion in your statements. For example, if you make a power based build with knights gear (which has toughness) and a condition damage build with rabid gear (also contains toughness), you have similar damage capabilities and similar defense.

I do not know what classes you have, but I personally have leveled all 8 professions primarily in WvW. If you take any profession in a power soldiers gear build and compare it to the same profession in a condition dire gear build, you have similar damage and equal defense. I have tested this a good bit in all professions. Now, obviously certain trait choices will make variances in this, as well as weapon and utility choices based on play style preferences. The fact it, that you can dodge or block condition appliers as well as you can direct damage.

Cynz.9437:

3. Add condi/condi haste/condi duration armor(kind of like zerker)… you still can run dire/rabid but since condi dmg stats itself would get lowered, stacking that set alone shouldn’t provide as good; condi/prec gear needs to be removed imo, but it is arguable

I may be missing your meaning here, but this sounds over complicated and as if it would create a large pool of other issues.

Cynz.9437:

4. amount of condi stacks you can get on player should be lowered

They already are limited. They are limited so, that in many cases if you enter a 1v2 fight, that the 2 man group in this situation suffers a damage lose.

Cynz.9437:

5. PVE only (wvw should stay as pvp): players should have own condi stack on NPC. Meaning: i play necro, my teammate is thief, i have 15 stacks of bleeds on NPC, thief has own 10 stacks of bleed on NPC. In any other MMO i have played so far it was common practice and DoTs were pretty good in pve, idk why it is not the case in gw2.

Regardless of other games do (I feel what other games do, that do not have similar functionality as GW2 are irrelevant) I agree with the reasoning here.

Cynz.9437:

6. spells that apply high amount of condi stacks, should have low direct dmg coefficient (arguable)

Generally they do. I agree that in some cases it doesn’t and those particular skills (spells is a bad choice of words) need to be addressed.

Cynz.9437:

7. condi food needs values lowered, by a lot

Personally I think you must not be very familiar with the food values, because they do not add much. They can be a solid boost when, and only when they are combined with very specific amount of traits in certain lines and a very specific choice of runes and very specific armor stats.

Cynz.9437:

8. spells/traits that apply burning need to have higher costs…some of them right now (hello IP) are too easy to apply

IP is a 20 trait point investment for a measly 1,312 damage every 10 seconds, assuming you crit precisely 10s apart. It is single target. Now am beginning to have difficulty taking you seriously.

Cynz.9437:

Side note: this suggestions are not something new tbh, in wow for example i played warlock (which is pure condi necro basically) and they were pretty good in pve simply because of own stacks of condis and condi haste.

I always laugh when players defer to things WoW stole from previous MMOs, then state it as if WoW revolutionized something. Honestly friend, this is not WoW, and I prefer you stop trying to make it WoW.

The only game mode that condition damage is really a problem, is sPvP. It is not over powered by any means in WvW and is distinctly under powered in PvE.

Personally, I feel you are over reacting in your hypothesis’ and should spend more time playing every profession in both condition and direct damage builds. If you did so, you would come to realize that in more cases then not, direct damage does more actual damage then condition damage.

The real problem is that most players have more options for direct damage mitigation in the forms of stacked toughness, dodges, traits, weapons skills, and utilities, that they use, then complain about condition damage when they only use builds that have limited condition cleanses.

tl;dr too fast for some classes to cleanse, too fast a tick for something stackable, too strong for something that doesn’t have stat resistance, too easy to apply while jumping all around from america to japan and back and a side trip to the north pole with it. change it soon.

I don’t have an issue with condition damage, I have an issue with the survivability that is obtainable while having that damage. Power builds have to sacrifice heavily to obtain high levels of damage, condi-bunkers do not. That has to change.

Condition damage is simply not working for the sole reason of being created out of nowhere without much consideration.
From opponent’s point of view, incoming condition is completely.
You do not know how much damage one or another condition will do until it ticks.
You do not possess any ability to actually influence the way conditions affect you (namely, condition stacking).
You do not have any ability to deal with conditions other than removing them.
Due to the way skills are designed (weapon sets instead of separate skills) conditions simply overwhelm anything that might oppose them in this game – the is no penalty to applying conditions however often while penalty on condition removal is extremely high.

Its a bad habit, I know but once again I would want to compare it with gw1 mechanics.
There, conditions had definite effect. Conditions did not stack with themselves. Conditions were not so common (most weapon sets in gw2 apply conditions on 4 out of 5 skills). Conditions were removable on demand, not as additional benefit of some skill. Conditions could be countered with regeneration, for example.

In gw2 the value of conditions was first cut to ground with their mass availability, and to compensate – ridiculously overpowered by condition damage that has no counter mechanic in-game.

Solutions?
First step. Cut either con damage (as stat) or cut the stacking.
Second step. Cut the ways to apply conditions (or, preferably, let players decide what and where to apply)
There is no way conditions that were always meant to be the “pressure” part of the damage (described by the words “apply and forget”) should do same, or even exceed, direct damage that requires certain amount of expertise to reach the opponent and is even then further reduced by passive defenses.

Fistful Of Bacon.3046:

I see a lot of thieves and mesmers running condis in pvp, guards, obviously not because they CANT, the only damage condi they have access to is burning, if there were a possible way to make a condi guard viable, people would do it. eles are the same, they can reliably apply burning, but other than that have minimal access to other dps condis, and again, if there WAS a way for them to use a condi build, you would see loads of them.

I’m sorry but i have neither seen nor heard of any players using it (effectively) in tpvp or solo queue. The simple reason is that they can’t kill anybody in a reasonable timeframe, while at the same time being unable to hold a point.
They are rather common in wvw because there it doesn’t matter nearly as much how long it takes to kill.

Fistful Of Bacon.3046:

one of the biggest reasons condi is so strong is that many classes dont have very much condi removal, or to get it they have to spec completely towards condi removal, which makes the build practically useless. Add on the fact that you can get insane durations using runes/traits/food, AND can reapply every condi that someone had on them right after they do use their mandatory removals and it becomes ridiculous.

With the exception of engineer and ranger (to an extent) i don’t see which classes don’t have “very much condi removal”. If you don’t take condition damage into account you will of course be weak towards it. It’s a conscious choice.
It’s the same as playing a build without stunbreakers then complaining about being cc’d.

Since apparently a lot of people here believe that conditions get reapplied constantly and aren’t aware of the skills that apply them, maybe try playing a condi build for a while. It might help.

but i did play unicorn thief, condition nades engi and a terromancer necro with scepter.
I can’t say I had trouble with condition removal on my opponents.
Thief does conditions 24/7, bunker engi doesn’t care (since you won’t ever kill him alone and will die anyway) and necro… well, you die before you remove conditions. At best, you die before you remove conditions second time.

Monkeymonger.9235:

I’m sorry but i have neither seen nor heard of any players using it (effectively) in tpvp or solo queue. The simple reason is that they can’t kill anybody in a reasonable timeframe, while at the same time being unable to hold a point.
They are rather common in wvw because there it doesn’t matter nearly as much how long it takes to kill.

Maybe you have not seen them used effectively in tpvp, but I on the other hand, have. on numerous occasions i have seen venom thiefs drop people VERY quickly, and to be honest, they are harder to counter than direct damage thieves. Condi mesmer on the other hand is typically not as quick, but used in a team fight, i have seen it prove quite effective.

the point stands, that condi is the meta, and more people have stopped playing these classes less effective at condi to move to more effective ones, and should those classes become more effective, you would see a lot more people rolling condi guard, ele, etc.

Monkeymonger.9235:

With the exception of engineer and ranger (to an extent) i don’t see which classes don’t have “very much condi removal”. If you don’t take condition damage into account you will of course be weak towards it. It’s a conscious choice.
It’s the same as playing a build without stunbreakers then complaining about being cc’d.

Since apparently a lot of people here believe that conditions get reapplied constantly and aren’t aware of the skills that apply them, maybe try playing a condi build for a while. It might help.

IF you read my quote, i said that many classes do not have a lot of condi removal, UNLESS you go out of your way and change your entire spec to be based around dealing with condis, and some classes STILL dont have good removal after doing this. Like i said before, this kind of ruins anything else you may have wanted to accomplish with your spec because you had to do so.

I am also an avid build-crafter, and have played every single class, and have tried an excessive amount of builds on every single class, and have used both power and condi on every single class as well. I have hundreds of hours on every class in the game (not something that really makes me all that proud by any means), and i have had a lot of experience facing all other class types with each class and build as well.

Do not assume that you are the only one who has played every class, and do not assume that everyone else is completely ignorant, and talking about a topic without first having experienced things from multiple perspectives.