Guild Wars 2

Every Necromancer and Engineer knows, likes and hates these traits. These traits are responsible not only for the rise of the condi meta but it greatly limits builds do to their power.

What ArenaNet fails to realize why these traits are so powerful is the only met condition is a critical hit. Even low critical chances of 20% is still viable because of the recharge.
It doesn’t matter what weapon or utility you use, even if your dodge lands a critical hit, it still triggers. Making running conditions to easy.

My propose ‘nerf’ to both these skills.

Move to minor Grandmaster Trait (25), replacing Siphoned Power. Cooldown removed.
Dhuumfire -Whenever you apply Fear, apply 4 seconds of burning as well.
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The second issue, not as important as Dhuumfire is Terror, in my opinion, to nerf Terror as well as buff it, move it to a different trait line.

Always have fears base damage equal to when the target has a condition and combined Terror with Reaper’s Protection.
Reaper’s Protection: Fear deals damage and when disabled (stun, daze, knockback, knockdown, sink, float, fear, or launch), inflict fear on nearby foes. (90 second cooldown)

With Terror combined with Reapers Protection, it nerfs the condition prowess but still makes a good trait.
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The Engineer traits need a major rehaul more than any class, even more so than Elementalists.

Originally I was going to focus Incendiary Powder but the issue isn’t just this trait strong trait, how critical dependent a lot of Engineer traits are is just unacceptable.

Check out this thread for trait fixing discussion for Engineers by MonMalthias.

The focus for this is fixing Engineers crit-procs:

So many crit-procs is not okay. If you have a suggestion I’ll be happy to repost any suggestions here that gets posted on the thread.
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In my opinion, Engineers and Necromancers are the top tier PvP classes, people may whine about Warriors but in my opinion they are far from overpowered compared to these two classes.

I would rather see Dhuumfire removed, it was the WORST decision they made and PLENTY of people have proven that we are WEAKER now with Dhuumfire than before we got it….

Not sure about engis, don’t play them but i do play a necro and scepter spam dhumfire is indeed too easy. Considering how much dmg it does need a change.

Moving it to fear doesn’t seem so bad.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I would rather see Dhuumfire removed, it was the WORST decision they made and PLENTY of people have proven that we are WEAKER now with Dhuumfire than before we got it….

remove it or make it a GM trait in curses along with Terror so that a necro can not have both at the same time.

Nova Stiker.8396:

In my opinion, Engineers and Necromancers are the top tier PvP classes, people may whine about Warriors but in my opinion they are far from overpowered compared to these two classes.

A wild guess – You play a Warrior?
Another wild Guess – You don’t like using Condition removal skills?

It really shows that you don’t play engineer at all.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Incendiary Powder, this fix is easy.

Cooldown removed.
Incendiary Powder: Utility Belt skills also apply burning on hit.

That wouldn’t work. It’s essentially like static discharge but for condi. Static discharge only works with a few toolbelt skills. It would destroy all current engi builds. Rather have IP be something like apply burning when you blind a foe. Static shot, blind grenade and smoke bomb. All avoidable and not rng. Could do the same with dhuumfire and chill once they fix marks readability.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Every Necromancer and Engineer knows, likes and hates these traits. These traits are responsible not only for the rise of the condi meta but it greatly limits builds do to their power.

What ArenaNet fails to realize why these traits are so powerful is the only met condition is a critical hit. Even low critical chances of 20% is still viable because of the recharge.
It doesn’t matter what weapon or utility you use, even if your dodge lands a critical hit, it still triggers. Making running conditions to easy.

My propose ‘nerf’ to both these skills.

Move to minor Grandmaster Trait, replacing Siphoned Power. Cooldown removed.
Dhuumfire -Whenever you apply Fear, apply 2 seconds of burning as well.

The only issue with this is it counter-acts Terror, which Fear does more damage when the target DOESN’T have a condition. Which is very stupid drawback to begin with people take JUST for extra damage with Fear regardless if the target already has 7 different conditions.

You must not play a necro. Terror does 50% more damage if the target HAS another condition, not if they don’t have another. Having Fear apply burning is a very bad idea if you are trying to reduce condiburst.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Nova Stiker.8396:

In my opinion, Engineers and Necromancers are the top tier PvP classes, people may whine about Warriors but in my opinion they are far from overpowered compared to these two classes.

A wild guess – You play a Warrior?
Another wild Guess – You don’t like using Condition removal skills?

Wrong on both. I play Elementalist with 30 in water, plenty of condi-removal.

You must not play a necro.

You’re right I do not play Necromancer, I main an Elementalist. Thanks for catching that.
I must have misread Terror, can someone explain the more damage when the target has a condition? 99% of the time, if you are a Necromancer, the target will always have some sort of condition on the target regardless of build.

I think having it apply on fear would be better simply because fear is powerful but not nearly as powerful as a burn every 10 seconds with any skill.

Spamming fear isn’t as easy, not to mention it’s how a Necromancer survives, got hit by a Basilisk backstab? Shroud and Doom, if Doom is on cooldown because you were using it aggressively, GG.

I don’t mind Necromancers burning.
I do mind being lit on fire being hit by ANY attack.

IP has been around since the start. Then it was nerfed… and no one was complaining about it anymore… then it was nerfed again…

Why is it being complained about again now?

Oh ’cause necro has a stronger cond burst now. Makes perfect sense. /sarcasm

Aberrant.6749:

IP has been around since the start. Then it was nerfed… and no one was complaining about it anymore… then it was nerfed again…

Why is it being complained about again now?

Oh ’cause necro has a stronger cond burst now. Makes perfect sense. /sarcasm

Added a cooldown and reducing it’s duration by half, it’s still very powerful. Making it even weaker would render it useless.
Making it stronger is not an option.

In my opinion, applying burning when you apply fear and make it a Grandmaster minor trait instead of major trait would be a right step.

Nikkle

That wouldn’t work. It’s essentially like static discharge but for condi. Static discharge only works with a few toolbelt skills. It would destroy all current engi builds.

Darn, what if Static Discharge is changed to do something else?

Like when you stun a foe, apply vulnerability.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Added a cooldown and reducing it’s duration by half, it’s still very powerful. Making it even weaker would render it useless.
Making it stronger is not an option.

Agreed. I’m not saying the nerfs weren’t OK (although bumping it up a tier did ironically kill builds in the name “build diversity”), but further nerfing would just trash it.

Aberrant.6749:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Aberrant.6749:

IP has been around since the start. Then it was nerfed… and no one was complaining about it anymore… then it was nerfed again…

Why is it being complained about again now?

Oh ’cause necro has a stronger cond burst now. Makes perfect sense. /sarcasm

Added a cooldown and reducing it’s duration by half, it’s still very powerful. Making it even weaker would render it useless.
Making it stronger is not an option.

Agreed. I’m not saying the nerfs weren’t OK (although bumping it up a tier did kill builds in the name of “build diversity”), but further nerfing would kill it.

Agreed.
Which is why making it a minor trait is ideal.
Replace Siphoned Power with the changed Dhuumfire at 25 in Spite, it’s probably the most useless minor trait of all, 5 seconds of 1 stack of might once you get 25% health?

That would wind up being quite a buff though as you would get it sort of for free.

Adding it in and then trying to balance around it has caused so many problems…

Siphoned power is blah though lol.

It is already nerfed for engineers twice. Engineer has a very bad autoattack on pistol for bleeding (compare to necro). Engineer can not apply so many stacks of bleeding. Without IP our condtion damage would be very bad.

Lupanic.6502:

It is already nerfed for engineers twice. Engineer has a very bad autoattack on pistol for bleeding (compare to necro). Engineer can not apply so many stacks of bleeding. Without IP our condition damage would be very bad.

You think so?
I see it overpowered and not needed, being hit with a Freeze Grenade and be poisoned, chilled and burned in a single hit is not okay.

As a main Elementalist, the issue with Elementalist that cannot go condition damage is simple because our conditions are assigned to an attunement, making 10 of our skills rather worthless.

What’s the issue with Engineers condition damage then?
In my eyes you guys got plenty thanks to grenades and bomb kit.

Aberrant.6749:

That would wind up being quite a buff though as you would get it sort of for free.

Adding it in and then trying to balance around it has caused so many problems…

Siphoned power is blah though lol.

A buff and a nerf.

Applying burning when you fear sounds scary but fear is also a source of the Necromancers defense. Spamming Doom or Spectral Wall on recharge is not ideal.

Not to mention fear is actually not as spammable as people assume, it’s just really noticeable when it happens.

The necromancer sub forum has been screaming for a nerf to Dhuumfire for ages, which fell on deaf ears, since no one ever visits our sub forum. I never use Dhuumfire, but I’ve grown more and more against it, thanks to all the nerfs that have happened to our other conditions traits/skills because of it. Dhuumfire clearly is the problem trait, but they’ve refused to touch it up to this point. If they changed it now, they would have to revert a ton of changes to other necro skills and traits.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Lupanic.6502:

It is already nerfed for engineers twice. Engineer has a very bad autoattack on pistol for bleeding (compare to necro). Engineer can not apply so many stacks of bleeding. Without IP our condition damage would be very bad.

You think so?
I see it overpowered and not needed, being hit with a Freeze Grenade and be poisoned, chilled and burned in a single hit is not okay.

As a main Elementalist, the issue with Elementalist that cannot go condition damage is simple because our conditions are assigned to an attunement, making 10 of our skills rather worthless.

What’s the issue with Engineers condition damage then?
In my eyes you guys got plenty thanks to grenades and bomb kit.

Come on, a Freeze Grenade does not apply poisen. So a freeze grenade applies chill and maybe burning on a 20 sec cooldown (and 10sec cooldown for IP). That is far away from overpowered.

Lupanic.6502:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Lupanic.6502:

It is already nerfed for engineers twice. Engineer has a very bad autoattack on pistol for bleeding (compare to necro). Engineer can not apply so many stacks of bleeding. Without IP our condition damage would be very bad.

You think so?
I see it overpowered and not needed, being hit with a Freeze Grenade and be poisoned, chilled and burned in a single hit is not okay.

As a main Elementalist, the issue with Elementalist that cannot go condition damage is simple because our conditions are assigned to an attunement, making 10 of our skills rather worthless.

What’s the issue with Engineers condition damage then?
In my eyes you guys got plenty thanks to grenades and bomb kit.

Come on, a Freeze Grenade does not apply poisen. So a freeze grenade applies chill and maybe burning on a 20 sec cooldown (and 10sec cooldown for IP). That is far away from overpowered.

With the Doom Sigil it does.

The problem isn’t the application of burning.
The problem is burning on ANY skill.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Lupanic.6502:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Lupanic.6502:

It is already nerfed for engineers twice. Engineer has a very bad autoattack on pistol for bleeding (compare to necro). Engineer can not apply so many stacks of bleeding. Without IP our condition damage would be very bad.

You think so?
I see it overpowered and not needed, being hit with a Freeze Grenade and be poisoned, chilled and burned in a single hit is not okay.

As a main Elementalist, the issue with Elementalist that cannot go condition damage is simple because our conditions are assigned to an attunement, making 10 of our skills rather worthless.

What’s the issue with Engineers condition damage then?
In my eyes you guys got plenty thanks to grenades and bomb kit.

Come on, a Freeze Grenade does not apply poisen. So a freeze grenade applies chill and maybe burning on a 20 sec cooldown (and 10sec cooldown for IP). That is far away from overpowered.

With the Doom Sigil it does.

The problem isn’t the application of burning.
The problem is burning on ANY skill.

wow with that sigil every of your Ele skills applies poison. So you can apply burning AND posion as well. And you have burning precision as adept tier skill.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Lupanic.6502:

It is already nerfed for engineers twice. Engineer has a very bad autoattack on pistol for bleeding (compare to necro). Engineer can not apply so many stacks of bleeding. Without IP our condition damage would be very bad.

You think so?
I see it overpowered and not needed, being hit with a Freeze Grenade and be poisoned, chilled and burned in a single hit is not okay.

As a main Elementalist, the issue with Elementalist that cannot go condition damage is simple because our conditions are assigned to an attunement, making 10 of our skills rather worthless.

What’s the issue with Engineers condition damage then?
In my eyes you guys got plenty thanks to grenades and bomb kit.

Aberrant.6749:

That would wind up being quite a buff though as you would get it sort of for free.

Adding it in and then trying to balance around it has caused so many problems…

Siphoned power is blah though lol.

A buff and a nerf.

Applying burning when you fear sounds scary but fear is also a source of the Necromancers defense. Spamming Doom or Spectral Wall on recharge is not ideal.

Not to mention fear is actually not as spammable as people assume, it’s just really noticeable when it happens.

If you go back into the revision history of Incendiary Powder you’ll note that Incendiary Powder has been nerfed twice – and that the Dhuumfire trait implemented the Nerfed version of Incendiary Powder for Necromancer.

Incendiary Powder used to:

• Cause Burning with every explosion which proved to be too ridiculous given the Grenade Kit autoattack

• It was then nerfed to 33% chance per Critical hit to Burn for 2 seconds . Teldo’s breakthrough Rabid amulet build using Flamethrower, Runes of Necromancer, Sigil of Smouldering and 30 points in Explosives meant 100% Burning uptime for his farpoint assault build . The meta, then Arenanet picked up on this and Incendiary powder was nerfed again.

• The present form of Incendiary Powder is as low Burning uptime as IP has ever provided – nerfed from Adept to Master – yet nearly every single condi engineer takes it because Burning is the only strong source of Condition Damage Engineer has. Every other condition Engineer spams out is Cover for burning

I can see where Arenanet is coming from with Critical Hit procs putting a certain requirement of Precision into Condition builds – Condition damage currently scales with only one stat so requiring Stat diversification was necessary. That said, I don’t believe that this was the right stance for Arenanet to take. The “nerf” to 100% chance on crit essentially removed the Precision requirement – as it did for Necromancer as well when Dhuumfire was introduced. So now we are stuck with yet another passive proc that is propping up the condi engi – and without IP, Condi Engi wouldn’t even be in the meta right now.

Anyway, Incendiary Powder was discussed quite in depth in this thread regarding Engineer and Crit-procs. I suggest that you go take a gander. I’ll be reposting some of the things in that thread to here also.

Lupanic.6502:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Lupanic.6502:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Lupanic.6502:

It is already nerfed for engineers twice. Engineer has a very bad autoattack on pistol for bleeding (compare to necro). Engineer can not apply so many stacks of bleeding. Without IP our condition damage would be very bad.

You think so?
I see it overpowered and not needed, being hit with a Freeze Grenade and be poisoned, chilled and burned in a single hit is not okay.

As a main Elementalist, the issue with Elementalist that cannot go condition damage is simple because our conditions are assigned to an attunement, making 10 of our skills rather worthless.

What’s the issue with Engineers condition damage then?
In my eyes you guys got plenty thanks to grenades and bomb kit.

Come on, a Freeze Grenade does not apply poisen. So a freeze grenade applies chill and maybe burning on a 20 sec cooldown (and 10sec cooldown for IP). That is far away from overpowered.

With the Doom Sigil it does.

The problem isn’t the application of burning.
The problem is burning on ANY skill.

wow with that sigil every of your Ele skills applies poison. So you can apply burning AND posion as well. And you have burning precision as adept tier skill.

No Elementalist will ever run condition damage, a Guardian would be more viable with conditions.
That’s not including the many issues Elementalists currently have in balance.
If condition Elementalists get a buff, then Burning Precision will definitely have to go.

For now, keep the thread on focus, Incendiary Powder is overpowered because it can apply burning on ANY attack that critical.

MonMalthias

So now we are stuck with yet another passive proc that is propping up the condi engi – and without IP, Condi Engi wouldn’t even be in the meta right now.

If that is the case, engineers wouldn’t even be in the meta at all without the trait. Gimmicky glass rockets won’t work in competitive play which leaves the condi-bunker.

The crit-procs and RNG for Engineers is unacceptable, I knew they had a lot but Elementalist traits make Engineer traits look bad.
I’m linking your thread in the OP.

Ostricheggs can probably articulate far better than I can whether Incendiary Powder is balanced in terms of SPvP. In his opinion it is:

• It is the only trait that is making Engineers strong enough to compete in the current meta (with respect to Necromancers fulfilling the same role of AOE Condition cleave)
• Without Incendiary Powder many Engineer builds would largely be crippled of its Condition pressure
• Recent nerfs to Engineer survivability have reduced build variety in SPvP
• Because of its current implementation, it is strong in 1v1s, but tapers significantly against multiple targets / AI classes

However, several viewers were of the opinion that:

• As a passive crit-proc there is little counterplay
• It is too strong for its RNG nature

It is important to note one point that Ostricheggs made as the stream wound down, which I believe to be highly important to any conversation regarding Incendiary powder changes: (Keep in mind that everything below is paraphrased from several statements)
“If Incendiary Powder were ever changed or removed, Engineer would have to receive such a plethora of changes thakittens current position in balance would become highly volatile”

NevirSayDie.6235:

Great topic for discussion. Hopefully the devs will think as critically on the subject as players…I fear they may shy away from changing anything significant, however. I’m assuming we’re speaking from a strictly tPvP perspective here—

I think the only on-crit procs really seeing much use are IP, sharpshooter, and transmute, with IP being by far the most important. I actually don’t think the problem is the RNG in this case, since the trait is essentially to get 1 extra burn every 10-11 seconds.

I do think it’s a problem that against pet-heavy professions, you’re likely to waste your burn (since practically every engineer attack worth using is AoE). Another problem is that burn is just ridiculously good. There’s no such thing anymore as a condition build without burn.

• I don’t think the current IP is overpowered—but only because there are now even more overpowered builds overshadowing that.
• The best thing for engineers would be a reduction in the condition-meta, either through buffs to cleansing or nerfs to condition application.
• IP certainly keeps engineers relevant in competing with necros and rangers for condition spam. I wouldn’t mind seeing things shift away from condition spam in general, though, and I think engineers have a lot of other things besides condition spam to offer.
  *Engineer survivability has taken massive nerfs since launch (juggernaut, smoke bomb, super elixir, elixir S, and others), but I think it’s still pretty good. We still have ridiculous healing, cc, and blocks.
• I think engineers are balanced right now. They’re not the best condition bomber or bunker, but they’re pretty decent at both at the same time. I feel engineers also have more viable niche builds than other professions (I currently play rifle engineer, no IP).

Incendiary Powder is pretty much a “can’t live with it, can’t kill without it” kind of trait right now.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I never saw IP as overpowered on an engineer largely because the engineer has so many other sources of burning that IP can become redundant.

I main the turret engineer myself, and the rocket turret is capable of sustaining a near permanent burn on multiple opponents. The flame turret from the supply crate accomplishes this as well. Put them together and any opponent is nearly overloaded with quickly reapplied burns, so cleanse is of little effect.

There’s always the blowtorch and the fire bomb for additional high duration burning. Although I haven’t been in high end PVP like Ostricheggs is, so those alternate options might be so vastly inferior to the shield that they aren’t worth it.

While Pistol/Pistol, Flame Turret, Flamethrower can make a powerful burn build, Pistol/Shield’s extreme utility coupled with just 2 traits – Incendiary Powder and Grenadier – can do the same thing, even better, and from 1500 range. There’s a reason why P/S, 30/0/0/20/20, Healing Turret, Grenade Kit, Bomb Kit, Elixir S/R, Supply Crate is meta – the Grenade Kit’s down state threat, Elixir R down state control, Healing Turret team and personal utility is just too good not to take.

MonMalthias.4763:

NevirSayDie.6235:

I do think it’s a problem that against pet-heavy professions, you’re likely to waste your burn (since practically every engineer attack worth using is AoE). Another problem is that burn is just ridiculously good. There’s no such thing anymore as a condition build without burn.
—The best thing for engineers would be a reduction in the condition-meta, either through buffs to cleansing or nerfs to condition application.
—IP certainly keeps engineers relevant in competing with necros and rangers for condition spam. I wouldn’t mind seeing things shift away from condition spam in general, though, and I think engineers have a lot of other things besides condition spam to offer.
—Engineer survivability has taken massive nerfs since launch (juggernaut, smoke bomb, super elixir, elixir S, and others), but I think it’s still pretty good. We still have ridiculous healing, cc, and blocks.
—I think engineers are balanced right now. They’re not the best condition bomber or bunker, but they’re pretty decent at both at the same time. I feel engineers also have more viable niche builds than other professions (I currently play rifle engineer, no IP).

I’ll have to agree with you on the point that there’s no good condition specs without Burn these days. I have seen the rise of many classes that previously did not have a condition role into one that does. Now, this is a good thing because it brings more classes and builds into the meta, however – all of the new builds that have arisen – Longbow burn warrior, Condition Ranger through Sun Spirit – contribute massively to the condition AOE balance issue.

One thing that Ostricheggs did mention was particularly striking -

conditions that proc while applying other conditions are extremely strong.

We as Engineers running, say, Grenades, have been largely reliant upon things like Vulnerability, Bleed, Freeze and Blind or Poison to cover the burns from Incendiary Powder/Blow Torch/Incendiary Ammo TB use.

For one, it generates a lot of “Cover” conditions that exploit the “Last In, First Out” (LIFO) condition system to “Cover” heavy DPS conditions like Burning with cover conditions like Vulnerability. For another, this kind of consistent reapplication of conditions – even on auto-attacks – swiftly overwhelms the cleansing capability of many classes. The only classes that can keep up are – Ranger and Guardian – each of which have a passive condition cleanse trait every 10 seconds in addition to their other tools for condition management. It’s also contributed to many builds now turning to Lyssa runes as an additional tool – the 6 set bonus grants a full condi clear and all boons on Elite activation.

So now we have passive condition cleanse being used to counter passive condition application. This may have been what players like Helseth and others have been complaining about – that the game has become too much about buildcrafting rather than active use of abilities. Where the presence of a single trait can define a duel far more than cooldown management, expeditious dodging or strong gameplay mechanics.

Buildcrafting over mechanical skill.

IP has been around since forever, without anyone complaining about it it received some nerfs already.
It was fine, no one complained, when it was better then this.

People see what Dhuumfire did for Necro and assume that IP is just as bad for Engineer. Gasp! Even worst since its a lower tier!

Let me hit you up with some knowledge.

IP is nowhere near compareable to Dhuumfire because its two entirely different professions.
Without IP i have plenty of Burning, Burning is the staple condition to Condition Engineers. Grabbing IP helps me in keeping my burning up better, so i have a more consistent dps.
But unless the target is grossly removing any and all conditions, it does not actually add all that much since i’ll have a Burn ticking with or without IP.

Totally unlike Dhuumfire. Dhuumfire adds a new condition, Necromancers without Dhuumfire do not have a Burn. Picking up Dhuumfire directly increases how much damage-per-second you do with your Necro. Its damage that stacks upon the existing damage.

NevirSayDie.6235:

MonMalthias.4763:

• Ostricheggs has mentioned, along with you, NevirSayDie, that Incendiary Powder has a weakness against high amounts of summons bodyblocking the IP proc. Would you agree that this mechanic simply further encourages high AI builds like Minion Master Necro or Spirit Rangers – builds that some have commented to be low skill ceiling and therefore should be low reward in the past? If not, do you think that Incendiary Powder should be changed somehow to make it “fairer” in true 1v1 scenarios free of summons?

Yes, it encourages spirit rangers and minion masters. A simple solution could be to remove the 5-target AoE cap, at least in tournaments. The counter to screen pollution should logically be AoE; as it is now, it’s the opposite. I’m not extremely worried about 1v1 balance, although it’s certainly an issue as well. Engineers are already pretty good duelers, though.

MonMalthias.4763:

• You mentioned the following – The best thing for engineers would be a reduction in the condition-meta, either through buffs to cleansing or nerfs to condition application. Would you not agree that buffs to either aspect would further erode the Engineer’s role in Condition cleave? What nerfs should Engineer receive and what buffs should it get in return for the loss in Condition pressure?

I meant that condition bombing in general could stand to be a bit less effective. If that means that engineers need some passive condition application nerfed, so be it—although engineers are no longer the #1 condition bombers. In return, engineers could get another buff to flamethrower, cleave on toolkit, and working turrets; we could stand to get a bit of our survivability back—let’s say a 5-second CD reduction on elixir C.

MonMalthias.4763:

• Should we as the Engineer class continue to propagate the current state of the game (through AOE condition spam)? This refers mainly to proccing cover conditions on our primary DPS condition, Burning.

Condition application and management is a unique mechanic of GW2. I don’t think it’s bad; I find it very fun, especially on the receiving end. RPG combat is about choices—like when you have five conditions on your bar and two cleanses off cooldown. Do I wait for that vulnerability stack to wear off? The bleed stack is covered, I’ll wait until it gets refreshed and then wipe the whole thing…

In other words, there’s nothing wrong with playing conditions if you enjoy that. I prefer to play direct damage but it’s fun either way.

MonMalthias.4763:

• If not, what changes are needed to turn Engineers away from this role? Keep in mind that Ostricheggs thinks that Engineers are well balanced in the current state of the game, and that any changes to Incendiary Powder will make Engineer highly volatile in terms of balance once again.

I would agree that engineers are currently well-balanced. This is mostly because our most damaging skills are difficult to land, so a skilled engineer will do well while a newb engineer will get rolled, no matter the build. This is not the case for all professions. I agree that a change to IP would make engineer balance very fragile indeed.

MonMalthias.4763:

• If so, what do you have as a response to players of other classes? The other class competing for the same role, Necromancer, also relies heavily on procs applying conditions with other conditions. What counterplay exists to procs in your experience?

CC and predictive dodges. If a necro lands mark of blood and chill on you, good luck digging yourself out of that hole. Necro is pretty much the top profession at the moment; their condition specs were conceived as the best bleed stackers, but then Anet realized that no condition build could succeed without burn. Add in yet another damaging condition at exactly the same time and you get a menace.

Rangers have always been difficult to balance. Rangers have low direct damage coefficients to make up for their bonus pet damage, but condition damage doesn’t have that balance check, of course.

After reading through everything, I honestly think one of the best solutions may be a flat reduction in burn damage or duration. I also wouldn’t mind seeing vulnerability go away completely in PvP, since no one uses it as a debuff and it’s basically just a cover, but that’s a little extreme. A slight buff to cleansing skills across professions—let’s say the warrior warhorn/mesmer torch trait removes two conditions, or cooldowns on cleanses get lowered by a few seconds—would be another way to address the same issue. We don’t need all of those to happen; condition bombing is strong right now, but probably only one or two small changes are needed to correct it.

NevirSayDie.6235:

MonMalthias.4763:

I actually see the Dhuumfire patch as the culmination of a design failure of Arenanet to take into account the base damage of burning and the overall placement of it in traits.

This is so true.

On another note: I tried to edit my original post to say that crit procs were useful to force precision into condition damage builds, but I must have run out of room or something. However, even that design choice isn’t working at the moment, since rangers don’t need it and necros/engineers just need a bit of precision to proc burn. The rest of the procs are negligible in comparison.

I’m not sure that condition procs as basically free, un-counterable damage is necessarily bad. I’ve just never seen a game where that type of damage is so high. This is the only game I’ve played where DoT damage has its own stat and ignores armor and hits really hard. Somewhere in there, something is going to have to change.

Manuhell.2759:

Unlike skills, rng in traits does make sense in most cases.
The “on crit” traits are there to give more importance to the precision stat – if it weren’t for those, its use would be limited only to power builds. With on-crit traits, instead, it makes sense to have some precision even in a condition build.
But it can also be a way to give limited bonuses – like with shrapnel. By putting small bleeds with long durations it forces the player to attack repeatedly with explosives to maintain/increase those stacks. Something you can’t do with a large stack+internal cooldown – one could inflict that, and then switch to some other weapon.

MonMalthias.4763:

amiable.4823:

MonMalthias.4763:

• Do you think that Engineer is improved in gameplay with RNG procs? If so, how do you counterplay against such procs?

There is clear counterplay to all conditions in the form of condition removal/melandru runes, certain foods in WvW, support builds with condition removal, etc…

If the current Meta is heavy condition then you need to adjust your build to account for that, almost every class can have very good condition removal on a relatively short cooldown IF they decide to spec for it. Many classes can apply that condition removal to others as well.

@Amiable:
I don’t see where you’re going with your post. I also don’t think you’ve read the OP.

Your answer essentially boils down to – “In a condi meta, bring more condi removal and counterbuild against condis”

Well that’s great and all, but it fails to address the topic at discussion.

Right now condi-burst is a thing – where you load up the opponent with as many DPS conditions as are possible (Burning, Bleed stacks 6+) through RNG crit-procs, condi-loading autos, and utilities that inflict condis – then cover with “junk” conditions like Torment (Necromancer, Thief, Mesmer, Warrior); Vulnerability (Engineer with 25+ Explosives); Weakness (Necromancer, Mesmer); Poison (Engineer, Thief, Necromancer) – then play defensively until the opponent dies of DOTs.

The issue being discussed is not “bring condi removal in a condi meta”.

The issue here is that many condition applying skills also proc other conditions ; typically through RNG Crit-procs.
Traits, sigils and yes, even Runes (Nightmare, the worst offender) exist to turn even a single auto-attack into Bleed/Burn/Poison/Vulnerability/Whatever.

It leads to:

- Random dodges, because you don’t know when an opponent’s ICDs are up – See: NevirSayDie’s points about fighting Necro Staff marks – dodge pre-emptively (Visually unscoutable procs lead to uncertainties of play and erodes the tactical use of the dodge mechanic in lieu of dodging whenever, because you’re bound to dodge something)

- Skill spam – hey, if X trait procs off RNG surely rolling the dice more often will make it come up, right? Especially egregious with Necromancers, but also present in Engineers

- An increase in the complexity of the game whilst decreasing depth . The game becomes more “spammy” and more about casting on cooldown rather than intelligent, measured play.

- Obtuseness of play. When you have died to Spirit Ranger procs and have gone “wtf happened to my last 5k HP?” you’ll understand what this means. Basically, players don’t know why they die and/or what they die to – neither of which is conducive to fun. It leads to QQ threads and forum toxicity – where is the fun in that?

- No counterplay. What incentive is there to become mechanically proficient if you are playing against the RNG? Just spam away and hope for the best that your spam beats your opponent’s spam. It lowers skillcap to rely on passives – look at the entire Ranger profession and shudder.

The purpose of this thread is to explore various ways we can change certain traits for the Engineer such that:
- They are no longer predicated by RNG and thus more reliable
- Without RNG to hold a mechanic back (due to risk of consistent reapplication), traits can be changed to be more situational and therefore more powerful
- By making traits more situational, trait choices can predicate new playstyle choices: more builds are possible
- Having a reliable situational trigger deepens tactical depth by allowing counterplay. Counterplay reinforces and rewards mechanical skill

amiable.4823:

MonMalthias.4763:

The purpose of this thread is to explore various ways we can change certain traits for the Engineer such that:
- They are no longer predicated by RNG and thus more reliable
- Without RNG to hold a mechanic back (due to risk of consistent reapplication), traits can be changed to be more situational and therefore more powerful
- By making traits more situational, trait choices can predicate new playstyle choices: more builds are possible
- Having a reliable situational trigger deepens tactical depth by allowing counterplay. Counterplay reinforces and rewards mechanical skill

I was answering your question. The RNG we are discussing here is the application of conditions upon crit mechanic. I was just pointing out that there is clear counterplay to that because the damage is not frontloaded and by definition there is at least sometime to react. If the problem is condition spam (which this effectively is) a player can defeat it using condition removal mechanisms.

You don’t like RNG, I get it. Most good players hate RNG because they want to know what their keypress does, every single time, it’s what makes things like Elixer X, U and many of the toolbelt elixir skills (non-traited) impractical in serious play. It makes it difficult to really excel with the class. Hoewever I think the IP example you use really isn’t the best example of this, because as you point out it is reltively consistent pressure that an opponent can understand and expect (they will most likely be getting a 5 second burn every 10 seconds). That understanding allows a counter.

Ostricheggs also mentioned the “5 second metronome” out of every 10 seconds. It’s something to counterplay Dhuumfire/Incendiary Powder, but I feel that it’s basically “every 5 seconds, Dodge the Engineer’s autoattack”.

IP and Dhuumfire should have been looked at and changed to lower their cd and proc only when there are no conditions on the target (to be used mainly in openers and after cleanses). However, it’s a little too late now since, instead of shaving down engies/necros Anet chose to remove Warrior’s intended weakness to make it a class without any weakness to serve as a counter :/

shimmerless.4560:

Damage conditions on the whole are poorly implemented, burning is the worst offender thanks to very common Nec/Guardian/Engineer passives being wildly tossed around all the time.

Anyone who thinks that Engineer is only hanging in there because of Incendiary Powder is completely bonkers, by the way. The class would still be strong with or without the trait.

It doesn’t help that Engineers has the most Crit-proc passives.

Whether Incendiary Powder is key or not, the amount of on-chance passives has to be fixed.

Shrapnel wouldn’t work anymore with bombs and grenades, thus it would be so weak to be useless. Also, i did already explain why some traits are made this way in a post that was reposted above.
Infused precision…well, you changing the entire trait in a buff so small to be irrilevant. And breaking any sinergy with Invigorating Speed.
Precise Sights would be terrible vs players and trash mobs – as no one stays immobile in a fight – and it probably wouldn’t even be feasible: Scope didn’t work at all – it required the player to stand still – and was reworked with another completely different effect. So it would seems there are issues with finding in an enemy is effectively still or not.
In Go for the Eyes you’re completely changing a trait yet again – one that rewards high precision by giving some defense when using the rifle.
Removing the defensive feature in order to put a bonus less useful the most you’re investing in said tree and weapon.
Acidic Coating, same as above – completely changing a trait, again. It isn’t even specified how that vulnerability would be inflicted. Still, the blind would be more useful anyway, especially since we’re talking about a trait in a defensive tree.
Transmute was already changed – your description is wrong, it now converts a single incoming condition every 15s. It was made so terrible that your change could even be a buff.

Incendiary Powder, with a 3s delay, would be avoidable by moving normally, making it completely useless when fighting any mobile opponent. Probably even when crippled. Completely useless versus trash mobs, also. It wouldn’t even have enough time to activate.
Sharpshooter…you are basically putting a double condition to put that bleeding, and probably reducing quite a bit the amount of said bleedings – that were already poor anyway, as we’re talking about 1 stack per 3s. Seems more useful to zerk builds for getting often fury than for the condition builds it is supposed to work on. Especially since it worked that way to give condition user an incentive to get some precision. But with your change you would need quite a bit of precision to even begin seeing some of those bleedings. It probably would be overall weaker than the current one in a condition build, and used just for the fury in a zerk build, basically.

Edit: the post i was replying for was deleted. Considering the wall of text i had written, i’ll just leave it here.

Edit2: the on-chance passives are there by design – since we can’t have burst skills on kits due to balance reasons, as we would just rotate between them, we instead deal sustained damage. Those passives are means to increase said sustained damage.

There’s no reason whatsoever that it has to be an on-chance passive. It could just be every third attack or whatever, with the second strike applying a visible buff (in fact this tech is already implemented via the Flamethrower’s toolbelt skill).

Every 3rd strike would make it totally independent of your crit chance though (less need for pre)… not sure if good for balance…

Interesting reads as always. A lot has changed since many of these comments (especially mine) were made. Necro is certainly not the top PvP profession any more; its time at the top was actually very brief. Engineer is possibly stronger now than ever, which is probably good. Even if IP gets changed, we can be confident that engineer builds would survive the nerf. Not asking for a nerf to my favorite profession, just saying.

Eng just got hit with nerfs last update… and has been consistently nerfed since launch… it’s most certainly not stronger than ever… I would rank it upper middle overall atm.

It would depend on how IP was nerfed …again… as to how viable eng would be after.

The engi version also works with a dodge roll placing a mine. So I ran into one of these and it did 5k. Wtf. People still complain about dhuumfire?

Aberrant.6749:

Eng just got hit with nerfs last update… and has been consistently nerfed since launch… it’s most certainly not stronger than ever… I would rank it upper middle overall atm.

It would depend on how IP was nerfed …again… as to how viable eng would be after.

Engineers don’t need nerfs.

Engineers need fixing, the amount of crit-procs is unacceptable, being heavily reliant on them for damage chance.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Aberrant.6749:

Eng just got hit with nerfs last update… and has been consistently nerfed since launch… it’s most certainly not stronger than ever… I would rank it upper middle overall atm.

It would depend on how IP was nerfed …again… as to how viable eng would be after.

Engineers don’t need nerfs.

Engineers need fixing, the amount of crit-procs is unacceptable, being heavily reliant on them for damage chance.

If they do this I really hope they seriously listen to veteran player input on their changes. They aren’t known to be the best at this sort of thing xD

We told them about Kit Refinement

We told them

It keeps happening

All is vain

So Dhuumfire…

adrianz.9672:

So Dhuumfire…

Ds2 then Ds3 then Ds1 will be the new meta

And MM’s got a nerf as well…. but what about balancing it out with some improvements for our class as well?

Hello?