(edited by cymerdown.4103)
[PvX] Guardian Virtues GM Traits
Virtues in general, other than Justice when traited in Radiance, are really underwhelming IMO. The passive regen feels almost negligible, even with heavy investment into healing power, a 1.5-3k heal on a 60 second cooldown is anything but valuable, and 90 seconds for a single aegis pop feels like a bit of overkill.
I get that since these are abilities that are on the guardian’s skillset 100% of the time and so they can’t really be TOO strong, but as it stands right now they just feel really lame for a class mechanic. Bugs aside, things like mesmer clones, necro death shroud, and ranger pets give a very unique feel to each of those classes. With guardian they were just like “here, have some skills that don’t really impact fights all that much” and called it good.
They’re actually fairly powerful in PvP, being able to Aegis or Blind a key attack at high level is super good, not to mention after traiting down the cooldowns. These GM traits I picked are probably about on the right power level, at least around the level of Absolute Resolution (except maybe the Virtue of Justice one, but I didn’t want to go overboard since that one is also on the shortest cooldown). They could probably be even a little bit better than they are, but I prefer to be conservative when buffing things and then incrementally adjust upwards later if necessary.
Ken, I probably would never take your first trait over Indomitable courage. I MIGHT pick shielded mind, but that would be a difficult decision and definitely not a no-brainer. Purity of body seems op. With full 30 points in to virtues, empower + Resolve has about a 45 second cooldown and heals you for about 5 to 5.5k health – essentially generating another personal heal. I would also try and avoid condition immunity like a plague.
(edited by Chicago Jack.5647)
The only thing i will state here you need at least 1 point in virtues to make using virtue actives worthwhile, and it makes VoC feel like clutch burst damage mitigation/Direct damage control. Three in virtues to make it feel potent with Retal, and the rest mater-grandmaster traits to make it feel like a specialized build around the class mechanic.
Reth Grimrazor – Charr Guardian – [GWB]Grim Warband – Tarnished Coast
Redgen Furyblaze – Charr Guardian – [SHD]Shade Warband – Tarnished Coast
Lerious Warhowl – Charr Warrior – [SHD] Shade Warband – Tarnished Coast
Redgen Furyblaze – Charr Guardian – [SHD]Shade Warband – Tarnished Coast
Lerious Warhowl – Charr Warrior – [SHD] Shade Warband – Tarnished Coast
(edited by Lucentfir.7430)
i think part of the problem (and correct me if i’m wrong), is that virtue of justice is an offensive virtue, and the virtues line is mostly support. justice is stuck there for obvious reasons, but the only people that would want to buff their virtue of justice are the people that wouldn’t want to dump points into a support line.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
The main problem with Guardian virtues is not the traits; it’s the base virtues themselves. I can’t speak for SPvP since I don’t play it, but every other class has unique mechanics that bring something unique to the table.
Guardian mechanics, on the other hand, provide vanilla buffs which can frankly be covered by any other calling. Especially VoJ’s burning damage. IF VoJ’s and VoR’s buffs were not your garden variety burning damage or regen, perhaps Guardian virtues wouldn’t feel like an afterthought.
i think part of the problem (and correct me if i’m wrong), is that virtue of justice is an offensive virtue, and the virtues line is mostly support. justice is stuck there for obvious reasons, but the only people that would want to buff their virtue of justice are the people that wouldn’t want to dump points into a support line.
Virtue of justice is one of the best ways, outside of combustive shot from the warrior, to generate pressure in a teamfight. It is a guaranteed burn that a person cannot dodge, blind, or (I believe) block. It’s a very good virtue even in a bunker support spec.
i think part of the problem (and correct me if i’m wrong), is that virtue of justice is an offensive virtue, and the virtues line is mostly support. justice is stuck there for obvious reasons, but the only people that would want to buff their virtue of justice are the people that wouldn’t want to dump points into a support line.
Virtue of justice is one of the best ways, outside of combustive shot from the warrior, to generate pressure in a teamfight. It is a guaranteed burn that a person cannot dodge, blind, or (I believe) block. It’s a very good virtue even in a bunker support spec.
you sure you don’t lose the burning when you miss? maybe i spend so much time on thief i assume everything that works on “charges” goes away the moment you mess up >.>
or maybe i don’t PvP with my guard, so i never use the actives >.>
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
you sure you don’t lose the burning when you miss? maybe i spend so much time on thief i assume everything that works on “charges” goes away the moment you mess up
Disregarding the block (as im not certain on that) it is an absolute guaranteed burn. Again, it’s very good to apply pressure in a teamfight. Even applying low condition damage, long lasting burning does a lot to generate pressure on a person. However most guardians activate justice right when they complete an empower so everyone who has the justice buff also gets 15 stacks of might – which also pulls a lot of weight for the damage.
Its second best ability to generate pressure in a teamfight next to combustive shot. Only because combustive shot is a much longer duration burn to many different targets and covers a massive area. On top of it all, its a fire field.
(edited by Chicago Jack.5647)
you sure you don’t lose the burning when you miss? maybe i spend so much time on thief i assume everything that works on “charges” goes away the moment you mess up
Disregarding the block (as im not certain on that) it is an absolute guaranteed burn. Again, it’s very good to apply pressure in a teamfight. Even applying low condition damage, long lasting burning does a lot to generate pressure on a person. However most guardians activate justice right when they complete an empower so everyone who has the justice buff also gets 15 stacks of might – which also pulls a lot of weight for the damage.
Its second best ability to generate pressure in a teamfight next to combustive shot. Only because combustive shot is a much longer duration burn to many different targets and covers a massive area. On top of it all, its a fire field.
if i ever decide to bring my guard to PvP, i’ll keep the tips in mind. i’ll probably run glass cannon medi guard, because of course i will, i’m a thief main :P
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
The main problem with Guardian virtues is not the traits; it’s the base virtues themselves. I can’t speak for SPvP since I don’t play it, but every other class has unique mechanics that bring something unique to the table.
Guardian mechanics, on the other hand, provide vanilla buffs which can frankly be covered by any other calling. Especially VoJ’s burning damage. IF VoJ’s and VoR’s buffs were not your garden variety burning damage or regen, perhaps Guardian virtues wouldn’t feel like an afterthought.
Yeah, that’s exactly what I meant. Other classes can make good use of their class mechanic even if they don’t really trait for it. For guardian, you can trait heavily to make them useful, sure, but the base virtues themselves are almost negligible.
It kind of fits into the problem with guardian as a whole, that being that they’re “in a good place” because there’s one role that they fill very well if you trait and spec very heavily into it, but are really quite mediocre as a base class.
Alright, fair enough, but you could also say that about a lot of other classes’ mechanics. Shatters are all fairly weak without speccing heavily into it except Distortion, same with thief Steal. In any case, it’s not really on topic since all I’m discussing is buffing the three GM traits. I don’t really think it’s debatable that Virtues is a bad tree in general because it isn’t, I just think the GM traits in the tree could be a little more attractive. As they are right now, they are all pretty useless.
As they are right now, they are all pretty useless.
Yep. I wish I had an incentive to take something worthy of a GM title in the virtues line.
Shielded Mind is decent I really don’t have a problem with it, if it was just an extra stun break for yourself, then yeah it would need some love. However a group stun break is extremely strong.
I do agree that the other two do need an overhaul. I’d like to see Permeating Wrath and Supreme Justice combined into one trait. Maybe that would be too strong. However I don’t really think so, and it would give people incentive to actually use Permeating Wrath.
Guardian WvW Guide!
Heavens Rage
Heavens Rage
Shielded Mind is decent I really don’t have a problem with it, if it was just an extra stun break for yourself, then yeah it would need some love. However a group stun break is extremely strong.
well when you’re facing down two hambows, an extra source of stab is WAY better than just a simple stunbreak.
Shielded Mind is decent I really don’t have a problem with it, if it was just an extra stun break for yourself, then yeah it would need some love. However a group stun break is extremely strong.
well when you’re facing down two hambows, an extra source of stab is WAY better than just a simple stunbreak.
There’s a difference between a stunbreak and a group stunbreak. A group stunbreak is one of the most powerful tools anyone can in any group situation. I’ve always believed that Indomitable Courage has overshadowed Shielded Mind, simply because if you have Stab you don’t need a stunbreak. However they fill two different roles. Indomitable Courage is more of a proactive trait while Shielded Mind is reactive.
Guardian WvW Guide!
Heavens Rage
Heavens Rage
(edited by Harbinger.8637)
XI. Permeating Wrath – Activating Virtue of Justice also deals damage to nearby enemies (~300 at high power, so 900~1100 on a nice crit, 240 range). Virtue of Justice’s cooldown is reduced by 10%.
That just seems like a bad smite conditions, I think something like a 10-20% damage boost for 2s to all effected would be more apt of a grand master trait.
XII. Shielded Mind – Activating Virtue of Courage also breaks stun for any ally affected by the ability. Virtue of Courage’s cooldown is reduced by 10%.
This still seems worse than the stability trait, I think add something like block all incoming attacks over the next 1s for all those effected including the previous effects.
XIII. Purity of Body – Activating Virtue of Resolve also grants immunity to chill, cripple, and immobilize for 3 seconds for any ally affected by the ability. Virtue of Resolve’s cooldown is reduced by 10%.
This seems like a good alternative to the stability trait
Curie is my smooth Australian sensei.
Alright, fair enough, but you could also say that about a lot of other classes’ mechanics. Shatters are all fairly weak without speccing heavily into it except Distortion, same with thief Steal. In any case, it’s not really on topic since all I’m discussing is buffing the three GM traits. I don’t really think it’s debatable that Virtues is a bad tree in general because it isn’t, I just think the GM traits in the tree could be a little more attractive. As they are right now, they are all pretty useless.
I disagree. While the shatters I use depend on the build usually, I find myself using them quite a bit even when I’m not built specifically for them. Mind wrack is good burst damage on any power build, cry of frustration is great for shutting down players by punishing them for spamming skills, and diversion is great for interrupting key skills. And steal on thief is an amazing ability. One thing that I notice frequently with people who are new to the class is that they undervalue just how useful of a skill it is. Even untraited, it’s a 900 range instant gap closer that gives you an ability that is custom fit to counter the class that you are up against.
Virtues, in comparison, are pretty weak. One deals condition damage on a class that can’t really compete with condition output to other classes, one is a small passive regen that has an active with a laughably terrible HP/sec ratio, and one gives you a solid single use block, but with a ridiculously low uptime. Yeah, you can trait them to be better, but the base abilities themselves have little to no impact in a fight whatsoever.
In a 1v1 they aren’t so great, in 3 vs 3 and up they’re moderately impactful. They all also have passive abilities (mini signets if you will) while most other class mechanics are active only. I’m satisfied in general with guardians class mechanic, though I wouldn’t hate having a 4th one someday. Again though, we’re off topic.
XI. Permeating Wrath – Activating Virtue of Justice also deals damage to nearby enemies (~300 at high power, so 900~1100 on a nice crit, 240 range). Virtue of Justice’s cooldown is reduced by 10%.
That just seems like a bad smite conditions, I think something like a 10-20% damage boost for 2s to all effected would be more apt of a grand master trait.
Well, not really though. So first of all, I think you’re undervaluing the cooldown reduction. If all the GM trait said was Virtue of Justice’s cooldown is reduced by 20% I would take it over Indomitable Courage because what you’ve done is move it from 21s cs to 15s, which is actually a 40% further reduction. My build changes to something like 01166, and I’ve got constant aoe blinds and burning going off, not to mention the extra might. All that extra pressure adds up to become better than the occasional extra stab most of the time, especially when you’re trading it for extra blinds.
Next point is, maybe the aoe damage is just a bad smite conditions, but it also doesn’t occupy a utility slot.
Last point is, it does seem a little weak, but it’s also the lowest cd virtue, so it does have to be on the weak side compared to the others to be balanced. This trait must also be balanced in PvE and WvW when combined with that minor trait that refreshes VoJ whenever a foe is killed.
XII. Shielded Mind – Activating Virtue of Courage also breaks stun for any ally affected by the ability. Virtue of Courage’s cooldown is reduced by 10%.
This still seems worse than the stability trait, I think add something like block all incoming attacks over the next 1s for all those effected including the previous effects.
Again, you may be undervaluing the CD reduction. The cooldown drops 9 seconds from 63 to 54, and you have long protection duration and renewed focus. I consider the CD reduction to be around 2/3 as powerful as the aoe stunbreaker, which if you buy that means I am buffing this trait by around 66%. More than that seems drastic for a first pass.
XIII. Purity of Body – Activating Virtue of Resolve also grants immunity to chill, cripple, and immobilize for 3 seconds for any ally affected by the ability. Virtue of Resolve’s cooldown is reduced by 10%.
This seems like a good alternative to the stability trait
Yeah, it’s good but maybe not too good. Certainly an awesome choice against condi heavy teams.
(edited by cymerdown.4103)