Guild Wars 2

I’m just wondering that;

Isnt this rune unbalanced for those classes that has spammable elite skills like Thief and Warr or maybe other if any. As an elementalist, my only elite would be elemental to use with this rune and it is 180sec total cd. FGS and Tornado is even not a choice.

Dont take this as a qq topic. I really dont know if this is balanced.

Agree. I hope they will implement elites with shorter cooldowns. Even 90 seconds (e.g. Renewed focus, Mass invisibility) is quite long, considering that the basilisk venom can be traited to 36 seconds.

I believe this has been discussed before, the only thing we can do is wait and hope for new elites.

rhodoc.2381:

I’m just wondering that;

Isnt this rune unbalanced for those classes that has spammable elite skills like Thief and Warr or maybe other if any. As an elementalist, my only elite would be elemental to use with this rune and it is 180sec total cd. FGS and Tornado is even not a choice.

Dont take this as a qq topic. I really dont know if this is balanced.

No elite skills are spammable. As for the thief, people don’t realize how difficult it is to play a thief without the so called OP mechanics Anet gives us. As for the warrior, that’s debatable. The signet of rage isn’t really in comparison to other elite skills. It’s just a might stack with fury and swiftness. Using this elite basically limits us to using superior runes of lyssa. An elementalist for example would have a fiery greatsword, now if a skill like that had a 60 second cool down, that would be OP.

To conclude, I think it’s fine where it is. That is just my opinion. Sorry if I came off offended or rude.

I think we should have more on-elite runes, but not as powerful as Lyssa. I think something like Sunless runes could be good.

As a warrior I think Lyssa is annoying – it limits build diversity. But that’s probably because most rune sets are just simply bad.

Jelzouki.4128:

rhodoc.2381:

I’m just wondering that;

Isnt this rune unbalanced for those classes that has spammable elite skills like Thief and Warr or maybe other if any. As an elementalist, my only elite would be elemental to use with this rune and it is 180sec total cd. FGS and Tornado is even not a choice.

Dont take this as a qq topic. I really dont know if this is balanced.

No elite skills are spammable. As for the thief, people don’t realize how difficult it is to play a thief without the so called OP mechanics Anet gives us. As for the warrior, that’s debatable. The signet of rage isn’t really in comparison to other elite skills. It’s just a might stack with fury and swiftness. Using this elite basically limits us to using superior runes of lyssa. An elementalist for example would have a fiery greatsword, now if a skill like that had a 60 second cool down, that would be OP.

To conclude, I think it’s fine where it is. That is just my opinion. Sorry if I came off offended or rude.

I think any class would like to have Signet of Rage as one of their choices for an elite skill.

If anyone cares, Runes of Lyssa does have a cd. I don’t know how long it is, but I know if I summon Flesh Golem and use its’ charge a short time later it won’t proc again.

Plexxing.2978:

If anyone cares, Runes of Lyssa does have a cd. I don’t know how long it is, but I know if I summon Flesh Golem and use its’ charge a short time later it won’t proc again.

Its on an internal 45 second cooldown, which let’s thieves use it as soon as basivenom is up since that too is adorably on a nice 45 second cooldown. But in PvP, that rune set is one of our most reliable condi clears so im glad it works nice with basi venom’s CD

There is no such thing as spammable elites OP.

Also lyssa runes have a CD.

DanSH.6143:

…. most rune sets are just simply bad.

A 90s base cd on it would seem to be more balanced since most classes other than war/thief seem to have that as their lowest cd elite, but it doesnt seem to be high on the devs list of things to be fixed. But with their whole rune/sigil overhaul it might get changed anyway

Stand The Wall.6987:

DanSH.6143:

…. most rune sets are just simply bad.

Yea that is the main problem there isn’t any real other choices and from playing so long alot of people have tried alot of the runes.

Lyssa isn’t really spammable no smart thief uses basi on cooldown. Need some better competition first before lyssa needs to be looked at for nerfing.

That last rune that gives aegis on signet use had potential but they gave the cooldown a bit to long/aegis to short. CD would be ok if the aegis was decent length.

This is more PvP not a PvX thing. WvW lyssa is ok but I don’t know if alot of people complain about it being OP I’ve never heard anyone complain about Lyssa in WvW.

Every 45 seconds != “spam”.

No CD, that’d be spam.

Rune of Lyssa is one of the runes that I hope they would fix in the next balance patch; along with bonus (2) boon duration runes and some other dumb runes like rune of sanctuary. I’m hoping they would check each rune and be like “Who the F designed these?”.

Lyssa rune cd is 50 seconds, unless they have changed it recently of course. It will not fire every time with a traited Signet of Rage (48secs) (only every 2nd time), same goes with basilisk venom (45sec cd).

I have a set for my warrior that I never use now and set for my thief which is quite handy that I still run but I use it with dagger storm.

rhodoc.2381:

I’m just wondering that;

Isnt this rune unbalanced for those classes that has spammable elite skills like Thief and Warr or maybe other if any. As an elementalist, my only elite would be elemental to use with this rune and it is 180sec total cd. FGS and Tornado is even not a choice.

Dont take this as a qq topic. I really dont know if this is balanced.

What are you crying about now? this rune does not even work in underwater combat? this real issue at hand is conditons and how they need to be reworked.

I know the horrors is fighting a thief that is cycling Lyssa and Consume Plasma, and in situations like that its very hard to deal with.

It’s an odd situation really, on the one hand, the Lyssa 6 is really strong, but on the other hand, some classes flat out need it for the condition removal.

Unless there is some massive shakeup in the meta, I don’t see a few classes being able to survive at all if Lyssa’s 6 gets nerfed heavily.

The attractiveness of Lyssa Runes is directly tied to the abundance of conditions.

A lot of classes simply don’t have the skills/mechanics to deal with a full condition dump (like Signet of Spite) and they make up for that by using Runes of Lyssa.

Once conditions get turned down a little so will Lyssa Runes start disappearing.

Many thief builds heavily rely on lyssa runes. Between withdraw and BV it makes up for our lack of boons, and it also gives us something we don’t normally have, stability. Sure you can use Dagger storm and dodge roll out of it but that’s a 90 second cooldown for roughly 8 seconds, vs 5 seconds every 45 seconds. Also the added precision ties in nicely, and thief generally lacks effective condi clear when it’s poured on them like gravy. There is no need to touch lyssa runes unless we were given the necessary tools to move outside of it comfortably. I don’t only run lyssa runes but gosh do I miss it when I swap it out.

@NinjaEd:
Isn’t the rune on a 50s ICD?

NinjaEd.3946:

Many thief builds heavily rely on lyssa runes. Between withdraw and BV it makes up for our lack of boons, and it also gives us something we don’t normally have, stability. Sure you can use Dagger storm and dodge roll out of it but that’s a 90 second cooldown for roughly 8 seconds, vs 5 seconds every 45 seconds. Also the added precision ties in nicely, and thief generally lacks effective condi clear when it’s poured on them like gravy. There is no need to touch lyssa runes unless we were given the necessary tools to move outside of it comfortably. I don’t only run lyssa runes but gosh do I miss it when I swap it out.

The problem is not thief build or whatever, but it’s how the rune affects each class differently, merely by the cooldown of the elites. Cooldown is set based on how powerful the skill is. The more powerful the skill, the longer the cooldown. Rune of Lyssa’s low cooldown ruins this rule.

I only play Guardian, so I compare rune of lyssa 6th effect to these skills: “Save Yourself!” and Contemplation of Purity. You can judge it yourself, whether the effect is like an additional utility skill or not if it’s usable every 45 second.

The fact that some thief builds can rely on the effect, is because of their elite cooldowns. If my guardian had an elite skill that has 45 second cooldown and I don’t pick any other skills/traits that remove conditions to improve other stats such as damage, I too can say I rely on runes of lyssa. But should it be like that? No.

Do elite cooldowns have anything to do with thief or any other classes builds? No. If there’s something wrong with thief builds, bring it up to a thief thread. You wrote it yourself, that you prefer Basilisk Venom than Dagger Storm just because the cooldown is less than half.

This same issue appears on many of the “On heal” rune effects. the runes are willing to proc every 10 seconds while only a few classes have heals that short of a CD, while others such as signet of resolve have a 40 second CD. This dissuades classes with higher CD’s from using these sorts of runes.

Silhouette.5631:

This same issue appears on many of the “On heal” rune effects. the runes are willing to proc every 10 seconds while only a few classes have heals that short of a CD, while others such as signet of resolve have a 40 second CD. This dissuades classes with higher CD’s from using these sorts of runes.

Agreed. None of those effects as powerful as runes of lyssa tho.

Carighan.6758:

@NinjaEd:
Isn’t the rune on a 50s ICD?

No, the rune 6 is on a 45 second cooldown, same as Basilisk Venom, I use that skill only because that skill tells me exactly when I can get the sweet condi removal again :/

Kraljevo.2801:

Agree. I hope they will implement elites with shorter cooldowns. Even 90 seconds (e.g. Renewed focus, Mass invisibility) is quite long, considering that the basilisk venom can be traited to 36 seconds.

I believe this has been discussed before, the only thing we can do is wait and hope for new elites.

Or they could add a specific cool down to the runes instead.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Carighan.6758:

@NinjaEd:
Isn’t the rune on a 50s ICD?

No, the rune 6 is on a 45 second cooldown, same as Basilisk Venom, I use that skill only because that skill tells me exactly when I can get the sweet condi removal again :/

They must have changed it then because it used to be a ~50 sec ICD. A 50 second ICD means the best cycle time you could get would be an untraited signet of rage = 60 seconds for warrior or 50 seconds for thief = lyssa base 50 sec ICD. See my earlier post. I will switch venom back onto my thief and test it tonight.

UPDATE: tested this on my thief today and the ICD for Lyssa is definitely at least 45 seconds (or less?) now. Automatically cycling an untraited basilisk venom skill (CD 45 seconds) will trigger lyssa rune 6 every time.

This has definitely changed at some point as I was using this last year on my warrior with a traited signet of rage (CD of 48secs) and the lyssa rune 6 was only occurring every 2nd time and every time when signet of rage was untraited (60 seconds) hence why the ICD was determined to be 50 seconds (between 48 and 6 0).

I will try a traited basilisk venom next to see if the ICD is 36 seconds of below as a final check.

Either way, for that strong effect, anything below 90 seconds is too low.

xFireize.6318:

Either way, for that strong effect, anything below 90 seconds is too low.

At 45 seconds yes its quite powerful. Its basically a combination of

1. Guardian Save Yourselves – but you get stability and aegis as well but only for 5 seconds of all boons duration compared to the default of 10 secs for SY
2. Active piece of Warrior Signet of Stamina – clear all conditions.

SY can be traited down to 48 seconds and SoS traited to 36 seconds so for classes with short elites (warrior, thief and necro) the Lyssa rune 6 is rather nice

The problem here is the rune 6 benefit is not available to all classes equally since it fires of elites and elite CD’s are messed up due to balancing the vastly different benefits of them across classes. One easy way to fix this would be to give every class a short, medium and long elite choice, 45-60, 90-120 and 180+. That way you can choose to take the short one and trade off. Of course for balance, the current elites would need to be adjusted. Another way would be to change the trigger for rune 6 to something else. Or course they could wield the nerf hammer and derate the lyssa rune 6 bonus…

This is not just an issue with Lyssa, there are a couple rune sets that trigger off elites as well but just not as good.

Kreen.3925:

xFireize.6318:

Either way, for that strong effect, anything below 90 seconds is too low.

At 45 seconds yes its quite powerful. Its basically a combination of

1. Guardian Save Yourselves – but you get stability and aegis as well but only for 5 seconds of all boons duration compared to the default of 10 secs for SY
2. Active piece of Warrior Signet of Stamina – clear all conditions.

SY can be traited down to 48 seconds and SoS traited to 36 seconds so for classes with short elites (warrior, thief and necro) the Lyssa rune 6 is rather nice

The problem here is the rune 6 benefit is not available to all classes equally since it fires of elites and elite CD’s are messed up due to balancing the vastly different benefits of them across classes. One easy way to fix this would be to give every class a short, medium and long elite choice, 45-60, 90-120 and 180+. That way you can choose to take the short one and trade off. Of course for balance, the current elites would need to be adjusted. Another way would be to change the trigger for rune 6 to something else. Or course they could wield the nerf hammer and derate the lyssa rune 6 bonus…

This is not just an issue with Lyssa, there are a couple rune sets that trigger off elites as well but just not as good.

Why would you think giving every class a short, medium, and long elite skills would be an easy fix? You think that Anet would just poop out new elite skills and/or balance the current ones just for Rune of Lyssa?

You know what would be easier? Increasing the cooldown, based on the effect. Like I mentioned above, 45 seconds is just too low; making the effect feels like an additional hidden utility skill. Heck, lyssa’s effect is even better than all of those utility skills you and I mentioned above.

That idea is basically the same as how Anet “fixed” rune of sanctuary to have +20% chill duration. "Oh something is not balanced! Let’s “balance” other stuff instead of fixing the actual problem."

xFireize.6318:

Kreen.3925:

xFireize.6318:

Either way, for that strong effect, anything below 90 seconds is too low.

At 45 seconds yes its quite powerful. Its basically a combination of

1. Guardian Save Yourselves – but you get stability and aegis as well but only for 5 seconds of all boons duration compared to the default of 10 secs for SY
2. Active piece of Warrior Signet of Stamina – clear all conditions.

SY can be traited down to 48 seconds and SoS traited to 36 seconds so for classes with short elites (warrior, thief and necro) the Lyssa rune 6 is rather nice

The problem here is the rune 6 benefit is not available to all classes equally since it fires of elites and elite CD’s are messed up due to balancing the vastly different benefits of them across classes. One easy way to fix this would be to give every class a short, medium and long elite choice, 45-60, 90-120 and 180+. That way you can choose to take the short one and trade off. Of course for balance, the current elites would need to be adjusted. Another way would be to change the trigger for rune 6 to something else. Or course they could wield the nerf hammer and derate the lyssa rune 6 bonus…

This is not just an issue with Lyssa, there are a couple rune sets that trigger off elites as well but just not as good.

Why would you think giving every class a short, medium, and long elite skills would be an easy fix? You think that Anet would just poop out new elite skills and/or balance the current ones just for Rune of Lyssa?

You know what would be easier? Increasing the cooldown, based on the effect. Like I mentioned above, 45 seconds is just too low; making the effect feels like an additional hidden utility skill. Heck, lyssa’s effect is even better than all of those utility skills you and I mentioned above.

That idea is basically the same as how Anet “fixed” rune of sanctuary to have +20% chill duration. "Oh something is not balanced! Let’s “balance” other stuff instead of fixing the actual problem."

Ok, easy was the wrong choice of words. I agree with you,. The “quick and easy” fix is to change the Lyssa rune 6 CD. My other suggestion is alot more work for Anet for sure.

I don’t think anyone here thinks Anet can just poop out a pile of elites. If thats the tone you want to carry on with in this discussion then I guess I am done. Although I can see why you said that given my poor choice of the word easy.

In my opinion, the elegant change would be to align the elite skills better as I suggested if Anet want to retain things that trigger off elites, I would argue that that is the actual problem and hence you end up with class imbalances due to some other feature like a rune 6 bonus not being available for all classes at a similar frequency. I am not suggesting they make that change just to fix lyssa only. There are other things that trigger off elites as well and who knows maybe they want to expand that feature. Ultimately its up to Anet how they choose to do stuff, hopefully they have a plan here and will make decisions as they see fit and I hope they will not always take the quick and easy way because that can lead to other issues. Sure for some things its the right approach.

Lyssa’s effect is better than the utility skills I mentioned because it does both of them for 1 push of a button and for thief, necro and warrior you get it between 45 and 60sec CD.

The sanctuary change you mention is an odd one really because if that extra 15% boon duration was such a problem why did they introduce another rune set later that gives it? For me, Sanctuary 20% chill seems like anomaly now given that. Is that the change you mean?

Kreen.3925:

xFireize.6318:

Kreen.3925:

xFireize.6318:

Either way, for that strong effect, anything below 90 seconds is too low.

At 45 seconds yes its quite powerful. Its basically a combination of

1. Guardian Save Yourselves – but you get stability and aegis as well but only for 5 seconds of all boons duration compared to the default of 10 secs for SY
2. Active piece of Warrior Signet of Stamina – clear all conditions.

SY can be traited down to 48 seconds and SoS traited to 36 seconds so for classes with short elites (warrior, thief and necro) the Lyssa rune 6 is rather nice

The problem here is the rune 6 benefit is not available to all classes equally since it fires of elites and elite CD’s are messed up due to balancing the vastly different benefits of them across classes. One easy way to fix this would be to give every class a short, medium and long elite choice, 45-60, 90-120 and 180+. That way you can choose to take the short one and trade off. Of course for balance, the current elites would need to be adjusted. Another way would be to change the trigger for rune 6 to something else. Or course they could wield the nerf hammer and derate the lyssa rune 6 bonus…

This is not just an issue with Lyssa, there are a couple rune sets that trigger off elites as well but just not as good.

Why would you think giving every class a short, medium, and long elite skills would be an easy fix? You think that Anet would just poop out new elite skills and/or balance the current ones just for Rune of Lyssa?

You know what would be easier? Increasing the cooldown, based on the effect. Like I mentioned above, 45 seconds is just too low; making the effect feels like an additional hidden utility skill. Heck, lyssa’s effect is even better than all of those utility skills you and I mentioned above.

That idea is basically the same as how Anet “fixed” rune of sanctuary to have +20% chill duration. "Oh something is not balanced! Let’s “balance” other stuff instead of fixing the actual problem."

Ok, easy was the wrong choice of words. I agree with you,. The “quick and easy” fix is to change the Lyssa rune 6 CD. My other suggestion is alot more work for Anet for sure.

I don’t think anyone here thinks Anet can just poop out a pile of elites. If thats the tone you want to carry on with in this discussion then I guess I am done. Although I can see why you said that given my poor choice of the word easy.

In my opinion, the elegant change would be to align the elite skills better as I suggested if Anet want to retain things that trigger off elites, I would argue that that is the actual problem and hence you end up with class imbalances due to some other feature like a rune 6 bonus not being available for all classes at a similar frequency. I am not suggesting they make that change just to fix lyssa only. There are other things that trigger off elites as well and who knows maybe they want to expand that feature. Ultimately its up to Anet how they choose to do stuff, hopefully they have a plan here and will make decisions as they see fit and I hope they will not always take the quick and easy way because that can lead to other issues. Sure for some things its the right approach.

Lyssa’s effect is better than the utility skills I mentioned because it does both of them for 1 push of a button and for thief, necro and warrior you get it between 45 and 60sec CD.

The sanctuary change you mention is an odd one really because if that extra 15% boon duration was such a problem why did they introduce another rune set later that gives it? For me, Sanctuary 20% chill seems like anomaly now given that. Is that the change you mean?

Correct. When Rune of Traveler did not have the same effect that they have now, Anet mentioned that the anomaly is an intended effect to avoid people stacking 3 different runes to get +45% boon duration effect. Instead of reducing +15% boon duration for second bonus of the related runes, they instead break rune of sanctuary to make it “balanced”.

Then this created another problem: Giver’s armor being completely worthless by having extremely low +% of boon duration. I haven’t found any official response about this, but I am sure it is related too how +% boon duration ratio is very high on runes.

Now you know where my frustration came from. I apologize if my tone was too harsh. I really don’t want to give Anet a single idea that fixing other stuff will fix the actual problem. That’s why I mentioned on an earlier post, if there’s something wrong with the thief builds, bring it up to the thief section.

Ah yes, I see we agree on the boon duration stuff then

Yup, the lyssa rune 6 bonus is not a thief issue only, warriors and necros also benefit.

I guess my point around balancing elites here in some better way was for the same reason, this is a class balance forum.

If you wanted to extend this a bit further then you should look at the tricks you can do with a traited thief heal of 12 seconds and certain rune combo’s and sets for yourself and party

Apology accepted

Just to clear up any confusion, there is no guessing. The rune’s #6 is indeed, exactly, indubitably, undeniably, unmistakably, irrefutably, incontrovertibly, incontestably, unquestionably, unarguably, and my personal favorite, beyond a shadow of a doubt-ably

45 seconds

What needs to be done to Lyssa is this
- get rid of the ALL BOONS crap.
-reduced number of conditions removed by 3
-changed so conditions removed actually are transmuted to boons