Guild Wars 2

This needs a hard cap. The amount of bad thieves that survive from Shadow Refuge full stealth regen is way too high. Maximum 3 seconds of regen in stealth.

Shadow Refuge lasts for 15 seconds at most. Shadow’s Rejuvenation heals for a base 293 for every second. Add in the 1,420 base healing from Shadow Refuge and you’re at a total of 5,815. A level 80 Thief has 10,805 hp. For them to heal from 1 HP to 10,805 within 15 seconds, they need to heal 720.27 hp/s. For Shadow’s Rejuvenation and Shadow Refuge to do that, they would need 2,080 Healing Power.

So basically you’re complaining that a full-on Healing Power spec heals too much. Too much in a situation where you’re dealing zero damage for some reason. Too much in a situation where they are also dealing zero damage.

A typical Thief running Shadow’s Rejuvenation is going to heal a whopping 6,535 by using Shadow Refuge and sitting in stealth for 15 seconds.

Olba.5376:

Shadow Refuge lasts for 15 seconds at most. Shadow’s Rejuvenation heals for a base 293 for every second. That amounts to 4,395 healed. A level 80 Thief has 10,805 hp. For them to heal from 1 HP to 10,805 within 25 seconds, they need to heal 720.27 hp/s. For Shadow’s Rejuvenation to do that, they need 4,273 Healing Power.

How about you show me a build that has 4,273 Healing Power?

Your math is wrong. It heals for 323 with 6 in Shadow Arts (what you need to get the trait). Refuge is 19 seconds of stealth in this case (4 of it ticking, 15 after it fades away). Which amounts to 6,137 healed just from the trait, plus 2,045 from the refuge, for a grand total of 8,182 healed and more than likely the thief’s cooldown on their heal will be up after this time allowing them to heal to max while their opponent won’t be able to do the same.

So a level 80 thief will heal 75.72% of their hp from this.

Ahhh the daily thief qq post. Glad that’s out of the way early…….

75.72% is not true at all unless they have healing gear. Shadow Arts is even the healing power line and if I am on low health and use the full duration of shadow refuge to heal myself via Shadow’s Rejuvenation, I find it pretty consistent that my health stops around the half way mark when the stealth wears away. And thats also with Valk gear. Clerics or or healing gear may net those results but I would love to see a thief running those

FeelsAlright.5860:

Olba.5376:

Shadow Refuge lasts for 15 seconds at most. Shadow’s Rejuvenation heals for a base 293 for every second. That amounts to 4,395 healed. A level 80 Thief has 10,805 hp. For them to heal from 1 HP to 10,805 within 25 seconds, they need to heal 720.27 hp/s. For Shadow’s Rejuvenation to do that, they need 4,273 Healing Power.

How about you show me a build that has 4,273 Healing Power?

Your math is wrong. It heals for 323 with 6 in Shadow Arts (what you need to get the trait). Refuge is 19 seconds of stealth in this case (4 of it ticking, 15 after it fades away). Which amounts to 6,137 healed just from the trait, plus 2,045 from the refuge, for a grand total of 8,182 healed and more than likely the thief’s cooldown on their heal will be up after this time allowing them to heal to max while their opponent won’t be able to do the same.

So a level 80 thief will heal 75.72% of their hp from this.

“this” being something that they can pull off once every 60 seconds by spending a ton of time not trying to kill their enemy.

And that still assumes that the Thief is not knocked out of Refuge or hit by AoE or cleave while they are in it. Or hit by cleave or aoe afterwards.

Also you need to realize, if we regen at 300hp for 10 sec, it takes a quarter of that time to deal equal damage on a thief. Think of it like this, one warrior auto attck of 2k takes me about 6 sec of Regan to heal and I HAVE TO BE IN STEALTH not doing any dmg to you.

Olba.5376:

“this” being something that they can pull off once every 60 seconds by spending a ton of time not trying to kill their enemy.

And that still assumes that the Thief is not knocked out of Refuge or hit by AoE or cleave while they are in it. Or hit by cleave or aoe afterwards.

It’s entirely too forgiving. I used to play d/d full shadow arts, even if you play badly, eat all of the cleave/condis, don’t use your dodges while inside, you can still self rez or outheal the damage.

Sad to say the only thing balancing shadow rejuv is a game mode like they have in spvp.

If its wvw who cares wvw was never balanced. In PvP let them sit in stealth for 15s while I cap the point. There is a Shadow arts thief running around pvp that thinks he is god but really he is just like a nuisance to the other team and makes it a 4v5 for our team.

This should not be labelled PvX.

Too much healing in PvE? Funny

Shadow Arts in PvP? Funny

OP for small scale WvW roaming or 1v1? Maybe. But that is not a game mode. Like many have stated already. Thief can not attack or leave stealth to gain all that health back. While he is regening what are you doing? That should be the reason you keep dying to thieves

Shadow rejuv is not OP, its troll just like PU. Well its a bit OP with a P/D condi build but beside from that not OP.

And while the thief is stealthed for 19 seconds, what are you doing? You could use SR yourself and walk away. Or outrun the thief and get OOC. Or call your friends.

If SR is a non-issue in sPvP and PvE, and it’s only causing a problem in WvW roaming/1on1 fights, and WvW roaming/1on1s aren’t a real game mode, then why such staunch opposition to tweaking it?

What if a class had an ability that let them go invulnerable for 3 seconds, then ported them to the nearest uncontested Waypoint. While invulnerable, they did not contribute to point cap/decap.

It isn’t a problem in PvE because it either resets the fight or locks them out of the fight if they port out. In sPvP it isn’t a problem because they don’t contribute to the objective then get sent to the beginning. It would really only be annoyance in WvW Roaming/1on1, and in that arena, it would be the absolutely dumbest thing ever that everyone would hate.

Is that fact that an ability is used mostly to troll small-scale WvW encounters justification for its existence? Is that good game design?

It sounds like people are just so accustomed to having their easy out that they can’t accept potentially getting caught by those they are trying to troll.

shadow rejuv is just another cheese giving illusions to bad players, make them think they are actually super good. just like PU, phantasm, s/s war, gs/maceshield war and etc

Cogbyrn.7283:

If SR is a non-issue in sPvP and PvE, and it’s only causing a problem in WvW roaming/1on1 fights, and WvW roaming/1on1s aren’t a real game mode, then why such staunch opposition to tweaking it?

What if a class had an ability that let them go invulnerable for 3 seconds, then ported them to the nearest uncontested Waypoint. While invulnerable, they did not contribute to point cap/decap.

It isn’t a problem in PvE because it either resets the fight or locks them out of the fight if they port out. In sPvP it isn’t a problem because they don’t contribute to the objective then get sent to the beginning. It would really only be annoyance in WvW Roaming/1on1, and in that arena, it would be the absolutely dumbest thing ever that everyone would hate.

Is that fact that an ability is used mostly to troll small-scale WvW encounters justification for its existence? Is that good game design?

It sounds like people are just so accustomed to having their easy out that they can’t accept potentially getting caught by those they are trying to troll.

Does it need to be tweaked at all just because a few people don’t like it? Nothing that I have seen in this game has been tweaked or changed simply because of 1v1 duels and WvW roaming why start now.

oZii.2864:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If SR is a non-issue in sPvP and PvE, and it’s only causing a problem in WvW roaming/1on1 fights, and WvW roaming/1on1s aren’t a real game mode, then why such staunch opposition to tweaking it?

What if a class had an ability that let them go invulnerable for 3 seconds, then ported them to the nearest uncontested Waypoint. While invulnerable, they did not contribute to point cap/decap.

It isn’t a problem in PvE because it either resets the fight or locks them out of the fight if they port out. In sPvP it isn’t a problem because they don’t contribute to the objective then get sent to the beginning. It would really only be annoyance in WvW Roaming/1on1, and in that arena, it would be the absolutely dumbest thing ever that everyone would hate.

Is that fact that an ability is used mostly to troll small-scale WvW encounters justification for its existence? Is that good game design?

It sounds like people are just so accustomed to having their easy out that they can’t accept potentially getting caught by those they are trying to troll.

Does it need to be tweaked at all just because a few people don’t like it? Nothing that I have seen in this game has been tweaked or changed simply because of 1v1 duels and WvW roaming why start now.

With that attitude, all feedback on the forums is void, because a few people don’t like it. I’m assuming that’s the metric you’re going by, number of complaints on the forum, in which case everyone here is a vocal minority.

Otherwise, do you think the majority of people like how SR is designed and enjoy fighting against it? If so, you’re entitled to that opinion, but I wouldn’t personally think so.

Also, I feel like you’re limiting the skill’s potential by stubbornly trying to defend it without questioning what else it could be.

What if it was a smoke field of the same size that pulses blinds and blocks projectiles? It allows you to stay in melee against most classes that aren’t immune to condis at the time, it gives you protection against many ranged attacks, can be used on an sPvP point for utility, would be potentially useful to mitigate incoming damage in PvE, etc. It can be countered somewhat by abilities that aren’t projectiles but still can land in range, or having condi immunity in some fashion, etc.

Do we have to leave it as a troll 1v1 roaming ability?

Cogbyrn.7283:

oZii.2864:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If SR is a non-issue in sPvP and PvE, and it’s only causing a problem in WvW roaming/1on1 fights, and WvW roaming/1on1s aren’t a real game mode, then why such staunch opposition to tweaking it?

What if a class had an ability that let them go invulnerable for 3 seconds, then ported them to the nearest uncontested Waypoint. While invulnerable, they did not contribute to point cap/decap.

It isn’t a problem in PvE because it either resets the fight or locks them out of the fight if they port out. In sPvP it isn’t a problem because they don’t contribute to the objective then get sent to the beginning. It would really only be annoyance in WvW Roaming/1on1, and in that arena, it would be the absolutely dumbest thing ever that everyone would hate.

Is that fact that an ability is used mostly to troll small-scale WvW encounters justification for its existence? Is that good game design?

It sounds like people are just so accustomed to having their easy out that they can’t accept potentially getting caught by those they are trying to troll.

Does it need to be tweaked at all just because a few people don’t like it? Nothing that I have seen in this game has been tweaked or changed simply because of 1v1 duels and WvW roaming why start now.

With that attitude, all feedback on the forums is void, because a few people don’t like it. I’m assuming that’s the metric you’re going by, number of complaints on the forum, in which case everyone here is a vocal minority.

Otherwise, do you think the majority of people like how SR is designed and enjoy fighting against it? If so, you’re entitled to that opinion, but I wouldn’t personally think so.

Also, I feel like you’re limiting the skill’s potential by stubbornly trying to defend it without questioning what else it could be.

What if it was a smoke field of the same size that pulses blinds and blocks projectiles? It allows you to stay in melee against most classes that aren’t immune to condis at the time, it gives you protection against many ranged attacks, can be used on an sPvP point for utility, would be potentially useful to mitigate incoming damage in PvE, etc. It can be countered somewhat by abilities that aren’t projectiles but still can land in range, or having condi immunity in some fashion, etc.

Do we have to leave it as a troll 1v1 roaming ability?

It already is a aoe blind if you use a blast finisher in it and a life steal if you projectile finisher through it. A smoke field that pulses and blocks projectiles is already covered by Smoke Screen which can also give stealth with a leap finisher. I don’t see a reason to make Shadow Refuge do what Smoke Screen already does. Smoke screen is a very powerful utility even if alot of thieves don’t use it probably because refuge is better since you drop target and can get rez allies in stealth.

The argument of, “their heal and utilities are also completely recharged by the time they come out” is invalid because so have all of yours

FeelsAlright.5860:

This needs a hard cap. The amount of bad thieves that survive from Shadow Refuge full stealth regen is way too high. Maximum 3 seconds of regen in stealth.

Shadow arts is hardly used anyways……complainining for a foolish reason ftw.

Cogbyrn.7283:

If SR is a non-issue in sPvP and PvE, and it’s only causing a problem in WvW roaming/1on1 fights, and WvW roaming/1on1s aren’t a real game mode, then why such staunch opposition to tweaking it?

If it’s only a problem in 1v1, it doesn’t need changing at all.
1v1 is not a supported game format. The entire game tells you not to 1v1, it specifically discourages it with the way combo effects multiply when fighting with many.

Carighan.6758:

The entire game tells you not to 1v1, it specifically discourages it with the way combo effects multiply when fighting with many.

The simple existense of thieves (single target burst designed to gank people), and mesmers (the dueling class) does not support your hypothesis.

Evo Sapien.5298:

Carighan.6758:

The entire game tells you not to 1v1, it specifically discourages it with the way combo effects multiply when fighting with many.

The simple existense of thieves (single target burst designed to gank people), and mesmers (the dueling class) does not support your hypothesis.

Heaven’s forbid we have two classes whose role it is to punish those that are not with a group and get punished when in one

The question is though, why would you let them sit in SR for 19 seconds?

Next week, expect a nerf thread on concealed defeat. If they can’t auto attack you with range for 7 seconds after downing you, it must mean their invulnerable with no counter O.o

Evo Sapien.5298:

The simple existense of thieves (single target burst designed to gank people), and mesmers (the dueling class) does not support your hypothesis.

Actually, it supports it. :P
The current implementation of Thieves and Mesmers is all the more indication that GW2’s combat doesn’t want you to 1v1. And I don’t just mean that you get killed by them (because neither of those should be 1v1ing, either).

this isn’t a PvX issue,
in pvp any team would be blessed to have a healing power thief on the enemy team stealthing for the whole match lol

Carighan.6758:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If SR is a non-issue in sPvP and PvE, and it’s only causing a problem in WvW roaming/1on1 fights, and WvW roaming/1on1s aren’t a real game mode, then why such staunch opposition to tweaking it?

If it’s only a problem in 1v1, it doesn’t need changing at all.
1v1 is not a supported game format. The entire game tells you not to 1v1, it specifically discourages it with the way combo effects multiply when fighting with many.

Hence why the idea for “duelling” is a major joke to have within gw2.

People continously speak on balance issues in terms of 1v1 and roaming in WvW. Neither can EVER be balanced. Yes we know PU and Shadow Arts are strong in those situations. But that is literally all those traits are really good for.

Narkodx.1472:

People continously speak on balance issues in terms of 1v1 and roaming in WvW. Neither can EVER be balanced. Yes we know PU and Shadow Arts are strong in those situations. But that is literally all those traits are really good for.

Not only that, but they complain about balance issues when it’s just them getting their kitten kicked. People can’t handle losing.

Just AoE the Shadow Refuge. So easy. A smart thief isn’t gonna stand in it that long.

Even better, get someone to AE knockback on it. Free revealed!

If you’re dueling expect 2 things you’ll see the most of SA thieves and PU mesmers. They dominate duels and have for a very long time. Nothing will change , you can’t balance kitten around 1on1s. In wvw, SA is broken and carries bad players, PU is broken and carries bad players. These 2 things are neutered in PvP due to conquest or they would be nerfed a long time ago, but they’re not – they’re really only strong in WvW Roaming and Dueling which people take very seriously for some reason because as if the stat padding alone you’re able to achieve in wvw and food buffs didn’t make it a joke to begin with for dueling and roaming. Bad players generally tend to like WvW because of this over PvP, you get carried by stats/op traits in WvW and it slides and works there. In PvP it’s quite different, mind you there’s still op builds in PvP as well but it’s far from the kitten you see in WvW.

Food buffs, guard stacks, water sigil stacking, exclusive runes/sigils, different stat selections, higher stats overall from ascended and in general, etc.

Wvw is a terrible place to use for balance because everything is overcharged. You don’t see pvp players with 230%+ critical damage, or 2100+ condition damage, +/-40% condi duration food. Wvw is for zerging and roamers who don’t like to zerg. Don’t hate thief, hate the game mode and all its asinine privileges.