Guild Wars 2

digiowl.9620:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgMF_rVdN7ZJdG5xVFpXSjJydEJYYmN6Tnh5Y2J0QUE&usp=drive_web#gid=2

Shows up some days ago on Reddit.

That was actually pretty interesting to see. It does seem for the most part that even when fully invested into healing power is useless for the majority of the games heals, mind you I only skimmed through it. On the other hand regen really benefits so classes relying on that can make good use of it,

Extreme roles are bad because it becomes a counter vs counter battle. If somebody is running full zerker damage set then you need to either be zerker too or bunker up or condition them. The damage mitigation just isn’t enough to outlast the dps in this game. This means the fights don’t last very long unless you’re in a huge zerg (wvw) but even then pro guilds will wipe pugs every time.

Also base stats like toughness and health are different across professions. Stability, condition removal, healing, crowd control and dps is unevenly spread across them too. This means that some professions are more suited to “tank” roles. While others are more suited to “condition spam”. Then there are others suited to “zerker” burst dps.

This makes the game very difficult to balance because it is unbalanced to begin with. While yes it is true every profession can be any role some are more suited to it than others. The game can not be balanced except by numbers it seems. Maybe the first step is to bring the health differences of the professions closer together.

In some cases it’s hard to kill a bunker 1v2 and you want it buffed even more? People are tired of bunkers meta.

haviz.1340:

In some cases it’s hard to kill a bunker 1v2 and you want it buffed even more? People are tired of bunkers meta.

And this is the basic problem with the game. Thanks to the base mob design, PVE and PVP plays like day and night.

Exactly Digiowl they balance for pve and it’s not good for pvp and vice versa, The skills need to be split like gw1. There is many lessons to be taken from gw1 such as all professions having the same base health. Also healing being much more effective than it currently is.

Then the pvp in this game might be more than just spamming of conditions and dps. There would be a true counter rather than just damage avoidance. PvP fights might last longer even if they just buffed the base heals on all professions. Remember these are all just suggestions and I welcome any feedback, discussion and debate.

Currently the best support in PvP/PvE isn’t raw healing, but boon sharing, like Stability, Protection, Aegis, Vigor, Retaliation and Regeneration, cleansing and anti-stomp.

Yep, I’ve just listed all the things only Guardian can provide on regular basis.

Yes Rym and that is because guardian was supposed to be the Paragon, Monk and Ritualist professions all tied into 1. In a game with no healers it is the closest thing we have to one. Why not just let all professions have the ability to heal more since they all have their own ways to mitigate damage anyway.

Boons run out and can be stripped not to mention if the player isn’t in bunker gear they won’t be enough usually unless they have a good amount of toughness. Healing and condition removal is what keeps you alive in an actual fight and it seems to only work in wvw with lots of players running support. This is why a real buff to all base healing in general would be a good thing for everyone in my opinion.

Better healing please and thank you.

To be fair, plenty classes are plenty good at buffing, see Ranger Spirits, Warrior Banners, Mesmer SoI, etc.

My berserker’s ele with support traits is a great supporter even without healing power which I might add increases your healing, not support.

in sPVP we already have near unkillable tanks. You want HP to be stronger and create immovable permacap bunkers that will dominate sPVP?

Do wonder if more people would pick up on support as GW2 “healer” if applying boons produced some kind of visual feedback to the person doing the applying. With healing you have the little green numbers to indicate that you did something useful. But with boons you see little to nothing unless it happens to be aegis.

I think the lack of emphasis on healing is actually a good decision. Healing in games is extremely hard to balance, because it subtracts from damage directly. This usually leads to one of two outcomes:

A)Heals don’t subtract enough damage, and thus are useless.
B)Heals subtract too much, and thus are overpowered.

It is really hard to find a perfect balance for this, especially when you have two stats that improve the efficiency of healing. Hence, why most games tend to dive headfirst into one of the two options.

Though healing power sucks in general, it is like this to prevent imbalance. In sPVP, things are already bad enough with certain bunkers.

IMO, they need to change the way healing scales more than they need to change healing power. I don’t have an exact idea on how to do that, but something I find interesting is the ele trait which increases only outgoing heals. If healing power only affected outgoing heals, then you wouldn’t have a heal tank problem in sPVP, but it would also be possible to scale healing power up more.

Good discussion everyone especially your post Blood Red Arachnid. The condition bunkers (with some healing power) are very strong at the moment. It takes almost full burst spike dps builds to take them down along with CC of course.

I don’t know how to solve that problem except by just increasing the base heals on the #6 button skill slot for everyone regardless of healing power. Maybe when Arenanet add new skills or traits they could give more condition removal to all professions.

It just seems that at the moment it is impossible to tank conditions since they are constantly reapplied and ignore toughness. Perhaps as I have seen suggested they could add a new stats that protects against conditions.

The problem is of course that the condition bunkers get the best of both worlds. While burst spike dps builds usually need a zerker amulet to stand any real chance. Maybe this is what Arenanet wants by creating easymode “cheese” builds. Personally I don’t really care as long as there is people to fight.

I guess the problem with Guildwars 1 was its pvp was too complex for most people to get into. Unless you did some research and build theorycrafting then you couldn’t really get into it in my opinion. And even then it took a lot of practice too.

Guildwars 2 may be more casual but at least lots of players can get into it and all I’m suggesting is more healing for all. Please continue to debate and discuss and hopefully Arenanet reads this thread.

Most of this discussion seems to be centered around spvp, and to that I can’t comment because I haven’t played any since the changes. Since the changes to burst I feel like the support role has been given a viable role in WvW. I run with a very well rounded group of 4-7 and transitioned my guard to a more support role for the group and I feel it has paid out. I run the old 0-0-2-6-6 with trooper runes with all shouts. I don’t do a lot of dmg but my support frees up my team mates to add more dmg to their build instead of something defensive. It’s not just stand and heal- u have to know your team to know where best to do what, but I can burst 10k heals (resolve/staff 4 dodges and shield burst is a few I use in an emergency) plus protection/regen/agis and condi clear, all paired with smart team play AND your team mates own heals… It’s decently not playing whack a mole with health bars but it is beneficial of played right and is more effective with the changes to burst. Again, no idea if it’s viable in spvp but WvW it works great and as an old mmo healer, I have enjoyed it.

I tried the same with WAR- you can’t be everything support for a group but would make a nice addition to someone doing it on guard or ele…. And I hear ele is ridicules for support with all the changes.

Yeah, sPvP in general is a really weird sub-game. It doesn’t follow most of the rules of GW2’s design because the team size is just too small. Well sPvP in a filled match barely works, tPvP is where it falls apart proper, too large maps for too small teams.

Huh? I could have sworn that SPVP was the specific focus of the game design, and that PVE and WVW are the outlier.

digiowl.9620:

Huh? I could have sworn that SPVP was the specific focus of the game design, and that PVE and WVW are the outlier.

Of course! Goes without saying! Why would any dev ever consider building a MMORPG for massive multiplayer instead of 5v5 combat!

Carighan.6758:

digiowl.9620:

Huh? I could have sworn that SPVP was the specific focus of the game design, and that PVE and WVW are the outlier.

Of course! Goes without saying! Why would any dev ever consider building a MMORPG for massive multiplayer instead of 5v5 combat!

The one that was going “esports! esports! esports!” at launch.

Yeah, but I think by now they realized how much they’ve embarrassed themselves with that and have given up on it. At least I hope so.

To be entirely fair, before LoL exploded MOBAs into their own huge genre (it kinda was a niche thing before that), WoW had a point with adding their arena.
But in the days after that, and especially with how large DotA2 has growns as the second game, if players want 5v5 pro-gaming-level combat, let them play a MOBA. They exist, they do what they do really well, better to focus on your own strengths and work on your won game.

Carighan.6758:

Yeah, sPvP in general is a really weird sub-game. It doesn’t follow most of the rules of GW2’s design because the team size is just too small. Well sPvP in a filled match barely works, tPvP is where it falls apart proper, too large maps for too small teams.

This game was and is balanced around 5-man content, not less, not more. It was stated multiple times. That’s why 5-man PvP maps work properly and 8-man hotjoins weren’t at all.

Boons, conditions from Epidemic, AoEs (most of them) are cut down to affect only 5 people total. There are some skills which affect 5 people excluding the caster himself (Transfusion).

It wasn’t always like that, in early game there was no cap, but it became a glaring issue so they re-balanced it again to be 5-man. The game could get some general improvements, like increasing the boon/blast finisher range in dungeons (since they’re 5-man anyway) to about 2000, allowing for ranged play and less stacking.

Anyway, back to OP.
As I stated, recent changes show that Developers want to increase the team healing, dealt to others. Healing allies isn’t a big factor in PvP, it’s an issue of healing/tank bunkers. The main support comes from Stability, cleanses and boons provided in teamfight, not healing itself. If healing was the focus of bunkers, you’d see more Staff Eles as bunkers or Cleric Necros. But they don’t provide all the boon and cleansing stuff gaurd brings.

That’s said, increased HP scalling in PvE especially and healing done to others in whole game would maybe make the game more healthy.

Very good points Rym I especially like the idea of increasing the blast finishers range. Maybe it could work in wvw and pvp too I hope. Maybe increasing all professions access to stability, cleanses, boons and healing with new skills and traits might be good.

Also the “Power Creep” I have heard players talk about seems to be here. The new sigils, runes and traits all seem to be powerful. I don’t know if the answer is to just keep buffing every profession until they’re all “overpowered”.

Just some ideas and my opinion about the different builds. Since the meta seems to be either extreme conditions bunker or burst spike with not much room in the middle. I’m hoping healing support can be made more viable instead of people just seeing green numbers but not getting any loot.

Please continue the discussion and debate, thanks everyone.

As I read about and do more pvp and study the meta. It just seems more and more about dps and avoidance. These are arms races as said in many other threads.

I don’t know anymore what is best for this game. Theorycrafting can only get you so far until you hit a brick wall. I think I have made my points in this thread. I leave it up to others to discuss what needs to be done. For balance in pvp, wvw and pve.

I have played thief alot lately and it is very powerful both as a bunker by evading and also by stealth to res allies. It is a class different from all the others. Bunker Condition Builds just get stronger every patch because of it.

I am sad to say it but perhaps the Thief needs a nerf. Every other class has to set up its burst while being reliant on cooldowns. Meanwhile it can just backstab from stealth or spam evades all day with pistolwhip.

This is why if a Monk is not added then the Thief class needs severe nerfs to stop this arms race and Power Creep. Arenanet know this too I think but just keep buffing everybody else to keep up with them.

It is not Warriors that are the problem with this game it is Thieves and their overpowered builds. People will say I need to learn to play or counter them somehow. But the simple answer is stealth is not predictable at all.

And Thieves can spam stealth and then they can backstab you and if it doesn’t work they can do it again over and over and over. They force any other zerker profession out of the meta by simply existing. Condition Bunkers are because of them and Bunker Guardians are also because of them.

All I’m asking is maybe consider a rebalance on thieves because of the initiative system. They are built to be assassins and they’re the only class with that system of skill usage. Basically without Monks they have no counter other than going bunker and spamming AoEs or conditions.

The zerker damage they can put out is insane also and very fast while also having an escape every time. I know many people enjoy and love playing thieves because of this so they probably won’t be nerfed. But they really can own every other class very easily once you learn counters.

It all revolves around spammability of teleports, evades, evades and boon steal, stealth and blinds which makes them simply have counters to nearly everything. Not to mention Steal and how much it can be traited to poison and heal, give might, fury, swiftness and vigor, daze, boon steal and it also gives you a bundle for more counters to the class you used it on.

A good thief will dominate the battles easily unless people bunker up and drop AoEs and conditions at their feet. This is what thieves tell you to do when they say “learn to play”. Meanwhile Thief just spams more evades, boon steals, teleports, stealth, blinds and anything else they can get their hands on.

Thieves dominate once they each a certain skill level and this is where it’s no fun to fight against them. The game revolves around bunkers because of thieves. It’s all very obvious and simple once you start thinking about it. A class that can spam so many “Get out of jail free cards” is bound to attract good players. And only the best can play thieves they will tell you.

The above reasons is why I believe Thieves need a nerf because of their unique initative based system allowing their dps and avoidance to reach levels no other class can. If you want balance then nerf the Thief Arenanet. If you don’t then simply keep buffing everyone else to keep up with them.

Then give us survivability elsewhere or no deal.

> Stealth keeps us from dying to bad players who can’t aim their ranged autos and stand still when stealth pops.
> Shadowstepping helps us maintain positioning outside AoE/Condition spam before the AoE/Condition spam kills us. And thieves have the worst condition cleanse.
> Evades only work so much. Good timing on attacks and positioning will bypass them.
> Blinds are easily removed and avoided.
> Thieves heal scaling is the worst in the game. You will almost NEVER see a thief take it outside of SA.
> Thieves have one block and no access to defensive boons aside from regen. Of course we have to steal it or get it from other sources. “Thief”… hello?
> Initiative is a lifeline regardless if it allows for spam. You run out of initiative, you die faster.
> About 50% of all thief traits and utilities are situational or worse. Hard To Catch is the worst trait in the game and it still hasn’t been changed. Venoms are kittenty utilities aside from basi venom and only appealing with 5 out of 7 venom traits. Traps and every +5% trait sucks too. Nobody uses them unless there is nothing else to use.

Nerf our survivability without equal compensation and thieves become walking lootbags. Nobody will play one simply because of it. Dec. 10th update says hello.

Survivability hahahah did you even read what I posted maybe try taking off the zerker amulet? Thieves have lots of survivability built right into their weapon skills. Sorry but every class has bad traits and skills. No deal Zacchary Thieves need a nerf and you know it. Maybe after the spam from Thieves is toned down they can start nerfing condition and power bunkers on every other class.

The problem with Thieves is the counters they have can also be used to their advantage. Try soldiers amulet and you might understand the class which is the best bunker in the game. Good Thieves will never even need to “facetank” damage. Stealth, evades, teleports and dodges will do that for you.

Zacchary.6183:

Then give us survivability elsewhere or no deal.

> Stealth keeps us from dying to bad players who can’t aim their ranged autos and stand still when stealth pops.

You didn t even read the huge amounbt of pages written on this forum to disprove this.

Yet despite your lack of experience you feel you can tell other players they are bad?

Stealth in GW2 breaks every concept of balance othe gaming companies ever have

The real fact is ONLY an awful bad stealth thief can die….unless the thief has some reason to not flee (see PvP capture points).

In WWW thieves are simply immortal if they know how to play their profession.

Nerf our survivability without equal compensation and thieves become walking lootbags. Nobody will play one simply because of it. Dec. 10th update says hello.

I don t agree.
The lowest skill floor push many thieves to think their profession is tied to stealth.

But thief has:
1) panic button to teleport, cleanse and break stun all at once.
2) Stealth
3) best evasion uptime in game
4) Best damage in game on viable builds
5) Best mobility
6) Medium armor
7) very good condition spam
8) initiative
9) chill immunity

If this game wasn t balanced on capture points, but on Killing opponent thief would have been banned from every sort of third party competition (that mostly doesn t exist for a reason….).

P.S. don t come up with the 30/30/30/30/30 excuse… you can have most of those with a single build…but alsoproves how you can rely on different builds Stealth+burst or condi+evade etc etc

LordByron.8369:

Zacchary.6183:

Then give us survivability elsewhere or no deal.

> Stealth keeps us from dying to bad players who can’t aim their ranged autos and stand still when stealth pops.

You didn t even read the huge amounbt of pages written on this forum to disprove this.

Yet despite your lack of experience you feel you can tell other players they are bad?

I think the lack of experience isn’t in zachary…

Stealth in GW2 breaks every concept of balance othe gaming companies ever have

The real fact is ONLY an awful bad stealth thief can die….unless the thief has some reason to not flee (see PvP capture points).

In WWW thieves are simply immortal if they know how to play their profession.

When did Anet says that WvW will be balanced?

Nerf our survivability without equal compensation and thieves become walking lootbags. Nobody will play one simply because of it. Dec. 10th update says hello.

I don t agree.
The lowest skill floor push many thieves to think their profession is tied to stealth.

But thief has:
1) panic button to teleport, cleanse and break stun all at once.

Only cleanse when RETURNS. and 50 secs CD…, And thief’ isn’t the ones who have it. Eles and mesmers have it too.

2) Stealth

Actually, the most common thief (S/D) haven’t access to Stealth instead of SR and if u have problems with SR, sadly its a L2P issue…

3) best evasion uptime in game

im a thief, and i play agains other thieves, thats about timing your skills. And Btw thieves can spam evades with:
S/D: no stealth build, thats the ONLY defense of this thief
ShortBow: Spamming 3, or burning down you ini pool useless…

4) Best damage in game on viable builds

Power Necro says hello!!

5) Best mobility

So whats the matter? someone will have the “Best mobility”. And instead of Z-axys travel, warriors are faster…

6) Medium armor

WOOOOOW!!!!, The OPness of medium armor is insane!! they have medium armor. Thieves will wear a little tanga! and crocs shoes!!!!

7) very good condition spam

condi thief is a joke. And btw P/D thief havent evades, damage isn’t good, etc etc etc

8) initiative

because of yes!! nerf ini all of it!.

9) chill immunity

OMG i just learn that -66% of movement speed doesn’t affect to thieves, and the F1, healing skill, elites and utiltys doesn’t affected the chill!!
NERF NERF!!

If this game wasn t balanced on capture points, but on Killing opponent thief would have been banned from every sort of third party competition (that mostly doesn t exist for a reason….).

P.S. don t come up with the 30/30/30/30/30 excuse… you can have most of those with a single build…but alsoproves how you can rely on different builds Stealth+burst or condi+evade etc etc

Hilarious…

Oh god!! -_-
When will you learn, that thieves aren’t the problem?

They are one of the worst classes in this game and their “OPness” comes only from the very bad designed stealth mechanic.

And not because initiative, mobility, their burst or anything else.

Why do I have to read anything when they are the same zealous arguments from a year ago?

The people who complain about thieves are as bad as the players who beg for mounts. They WANT something SO BAD that they fail to even consider what the consequences will be.

Remember the Dec. 10th update? Thanks to everyone’s constant complaining, Anet nerfed overall initiative gain by 1/3 causing a large portion of thieves to drop their profession. But apparently nobody checked their math except the thief community because for some reason anet tried saying it was a “MASSSIVE buff”. And that attitude only kittened the thief community off more. So they either shelved or deleted their thief and joined in the hammer train because they knew they were going to have fun…

That was only a taste. So to redeem themselves, anet decided to give thieves On-Revealed abilities (my idea) and -50% damage taken in stealth. It was enough to get a small portion of the old thief community back but most of them are staying on other professions. Smart.

Think about what would happen if anti-thief got their way.

If we looked back at all of those QQ topics and went through with them, Thief would be a walking lootbag and a waste of coding because nobody sept for idiots and die-hards would play one. Thief would become useless in almost every game mode because stealth wouldn’t do a kitten thing except reveal you on hit. Thief would be reduced to autoattacking and running because at this point stealth would be pointless to use and teleports, evasion and blinds couldn’t be spammed to maintain defenses. Everyone on one would again either shelve or delete it, except this time it would be more permanent.

All because players want to see the profession die.(coughlordbyroncough).

But please continue to do so so I can come back on here after the fact and say I was right.

EDIT: And yeah, I will come back to rub it in player’s faces.

Thieves are op lol.

I love seeing nick beards’ true colors in these type of discussions.

Why do you need to read Zacchary? Because you like all the other players in this thread cherry pick information from my post to suit yourself. Try searching Burnfall.9573 posts. He has been posting for a year about how thieves dominate all other classes and he hasn’t given up. Maybe you could learn something about class balance from the rangers?

The OP (original post, not poster) is brilliant!
I love the amount of elaborate reasoning given for justifying the thread’s title. Honestly I didn’t read all the posts under it, as I was just overwhelmed with the reasoning.
I can’t even add this to the nerf wish list because I feel like I’m missing something…
So please, in my signature, find the link to the Nerf Wish List (click on the word “Nerf” in the signature), and add it yourself, following the thread’s format of course. This way this request will be kept track of. Have a nice day!

Infraction in: 3… 2… 1…

ricky.2679:

Why do you need to read Zacchary? Because you like all the other players in this thread cherry pick information from my post to suit yourself. Try searching Burnfall.9573 posts. He has been posting for a year about how thieves dominate all other classes and he hasn’t given up. Maybe you could learn something about class balance from the rangers?

Burnfall. Lol. And you wonder why I “cherrypicked”.

No, Burnfall is a troll who posts nothing but overly dramatic comments that do not contribute to any topic ever. “muh justices!” At least he is not as horrible as Sanduskel, who only ever said “permastealth is OP. I should know because I have 5 thief alts lel”.

Its like they do that on purpose just to kitten the thief pop off. And the sad part is they are successful only because everyone knows that anet is going to listen to them more than the thief community. Always the same crap every day and nothing is being done about it.

So really, why should I care what anything past the first post should be when I already know what everyone is going to say? I don’t.

I can tell by your first post that you are not looking for a discussion but really just want opinions to confirm your’s. That turns this into a nice little anti-thief magnet where everyone comes here to say, “Yeah thief killed me too! They are op!” while it also attracts anti-anti-thief like myself who come here to “troll” and “cherrypick” with their L2Ps. Lol opposite poles!

In my honest opinion, this thread is just flame bait because everyone knows where it’s going to lead. If I was a mod, I would be locking these kinds of topics on the spot because all it does is incite circlejerks and flame. But I am not and they don’t.

EDIT: Just to stay on topic. No thieves do not need a nerf, players need to be more aware and smart about managing their skills. Or they could play an OP thief for themselves. Whatever.

I have changed the topic’s name 2 times. The first and original title was “This is why we need a monk” or something like that. Second was “Better Healing Power Scaling”. And Third is “[PvX] Thieves need a nerf”.

I have come to this conclusion because it is the worst offender with a zerker amulet. But hey I currently play an “OP thief” myself and it works great. Doesn’t change the fact I think it needs a nerf.

You see I want a balanced game that is fun and challenging. Not just stomping noobs all day in hotjoins easily. Anyway thanks for the contributions.

Maybe they are getting stomped because they really are noobs? Ever think about that?

Don’t bring a profession down because players can’t even fathom that thieves just might be different than your average gw2 profession. That kind of thinking ruined american schooling with that No Child Left Behind crap. Please don’t bring it into this game.

Denying thieves aren t a problem in WWW is denying even www exists.
There are roles only thieves can do.

Thief is fine, yet there are many video of thieves trolling ALONE, server respawns.

Do the same with another profession.

If you deny thieves are immortal in WWW you just can go to your section and read what is written about thieves dying in WWW.

That is: lack of experience.
Maybe you can survive a thief (maybe….because thief itself dictate BUILDS in www) but for sure you can t kill a decent one.

And yet your only defense is L2P…
What about you L2P a profession that doesn t force your opponent into going on FULL PREDICTION.

Yeah ok Zacchary you win because this is just my opinion and Arenanet probably don’t even care. Guess it’s wrong to want some balance when we can just have every profession overpowered in its own way. Sorry Thieves your class is just fine because I’m just a noob who needs to learn to play.

@ LB

As long as you keep making excuses for yourself, thieves are going to keep saying L2P and posting sirlin.

Because that is what the problem is.

A well-learned thief can get on another profession and kill another thief. Why don’t you follow suit?

@ Ricky

That’s a step in the right direction. Sarcasm or not. :P

Just so I don’t have to wait 53 minutes for flood control to go away, I will answer the post below here:

Yes, its hilarious that the same people blindly attacking the thief profession are going to other forums to complain there, with the same attitude and approach I might add.

But regardless if you need excuses you still use them.

Thief gameplay is more punishing than other professions simply because they are forced to manage their skills and escapes carefully in real time instead of paying attention to a rotation. They can’t simply burn every skill on one weapon and then switch to another for more. Once initiative is gone you lose access to 8 weapon skills all at once, not just one.

Then there is passive defenses. Thieves have to steal aegis and protection. All everyone else has to do is apply it. Yes there is -50% damage taken in stealth but we have to burn at least half of our initiative or one utility to get a few seconds of it. Initiative and time that could be used to kill you faster.

And that “Oh but then I have to use my skills!!!” is a bullkitten excuse. You have an auto attack. It is free. Spam 1, keep moving and watch your auto attack progress. If you are using ranged, use your toon’s head as a reticle and start aiming. If your attack won’t hit without a target, then use an attack that will.

What i find hilarious is if you google “stealth in mmorpg” (or similar sentences), you often ends up in other mmorpgs forums using Guild Wars 2 as the perfect example of overpowered stealth….

P.S. i don t need excuses.. i need thief players to PAY for their mistakes and not force me to randomly try to waste my CD on a direction hoping they went that way.
L2P is the argument of people that can t discuss.

People will always hate on thieves, and people will always find reasons to rationalize their emotions. Thieves are designed to be irritating, and they succeed at it.

This has nothing to do with being too powerful.

LordByron.8369:

What i find hilarious is if you google “stealth in mmorpg” (or similar sentences), you often ends up in other mmorpgs forums using Guild Wars 2 as the perfect example of overpowered stealth….

I just tried this. Front page, not a single forum hit with what you describe. In fact, only one thread on mmorpg.com even had “GW2” or “Guild Wars 2” in it, where someone listed games with perma-stealth vs games with temporary stealth.

Second page, a few more mentioning GW2, none of which even related to done well or bad, and a few results which weren’t about MMOs, just looking for a stealth action game and the individual keywords made them come up.

So yeah, you can link to a specific set of google results. Link us yours, so we know you’re not just making things up?

LordByron.8369:

P.S. i don t need excuses.. i need thief players to PAY for their mistakes and not force me to randomly try to waste my CD on a direction hoping they went that way.

But the thing is, what is actually so bad about them running away?
Now granted, this is exactly what’s causing me to rage at thieves too, I loathe the class, much more so than Warriors or Eles with their I’m-so-special swiftness fields.

Still, all in all their limited attack range and fragility seem to balance their ability to ~freely withdraw from combat: You can’t make a dent in them, and they won’t make a dent in you either.

LordByron.8369:

L2P is the argument of people that can t discuss.

Correct, although you’re committing a massive ad hominem by reducing everyone’s replies to “You just can’t discuss”.

Though their advice might ultimately be about you needing to play better, that’s not the same as the droned and commonly toted “L2P”. The latter is an insult, the former might be quite serious advice that the problem is between keyboard and chair.

This would not be an uncommon solution either. For example, compare the complaints about Mesmers in sPvP with how they fared at the tournament. As we can assume the complaints are by Joe Average players (on average), while the tournament is top-end players, we can see a clear disconnect between the threat a Mesmer causes to an average player versus what he or she presents to a top player.

As such, “play better” is quite good advice, in a lot of cases.
And not the same as the “L2P” which you reduce it to.

So before just dismissing it like that, it might be more sensible to say why playing better would not be a solution?

Carighan if you read what i wrote, you see you lost so much time as Always IF your intent was a discussion.

Expecially when you speak about PvP that is the ultimate cause of thestealth unbalance.

Since PvP felt they needed to balance stealth with the inability to capture points, its clear stealth is unbalanced when you remove such drawback.

Hello,

Since we are receiving a lot of feedback about this topic, we are gathering it in a dedicated thread. You are very welcome to repost your question, comments and concerns in this discussion.

Thank you for your understanding.