Guild Wars 2

No other class can do that much raw damage with that much mobility and still bunker points 3v1 for large periods of time.

Some things that could be looked at to balance it.

1. Too much damage (I feel like this one is never brought up but the amount of raw damage an S/D thief can do is insane, and none of it is on a cooldown. Their burst and consistent damage are all the same thing, they are constantly doing both.)
2. Too much dodging
3. Lyssa runes

Bring up whatever else you think could be looked at balance wise for an S/D thief.

I think that S/D is totally fine at the moment. Dodging only occurs during Flanking Strike, all other skills don’t have a built-in dodge. They have a lot of “dodges”, but when they are doing them they are not attacking you and there is a limit to how much you can dodge (if he has the Signet of Agility that’s 2 extra dodges on demand).

So no. S/D is fine, the recent nerf to Infiltrator Return was what the class needed to become balanced.

yep, not just s/d though s/p even— sword mainhand teleport is kinda kittened. on demand instant gap closer that also immobilizes and you can teleport back with it? you can pre cast pistol whip and teleport. but in all honesty thiefs in general right now are too powerful they fill their niche role, and only thiefs can counter thiefs ;/

You can obviously haven’t played SPVP with a thief…why don’t you try it and then come complain thieves are OP…

i think evade skills should have a endurance cost from -15%-20% (its resource for evades so it have to cost some endurance)

would stop spam and would have fixed the bunker rangerz ages ago too

Reevz.2617:

yep, not just s/d though s/p even— sword mainhand teleport is kinda kittened. on demand instant gap closer that also immobilizes and you can teleport back with it? you can pre cast pistol whip and teleport. but in all honesty thiefs in general right now are too powerful they fill their niche role, and only thiefs can counter thiefs ;/

Yeah I agree s/p is too strong also. It’s actually even more of a nightmare than s/d for my ele in 1v1s. I don’t feel like s/p is as safe to play in team fights though.

The only thing I find that is out of balance is their dmg/defense trade off. S/d doesn’t do a lot of damage but does have very good defensive capabilities (if played right) for the damage they do.

But I can think of some more offenders because the current meta is completely based on this. Deal too much damage for the defensive options you have. How else could we describe warrior’s being a damage dealer with defensive traits and utilities. And aren’t all rabid condi users essentially using a defensive amulet while still having more DPS output than a myriad of unviable berserker options.

@Reevz: you can’t pre cast pistol whip into a infiltrator’s strike, only into steal, infiltrator’s signet and shadowstep. And thieves in general get countered by a lot of the current meta builds . . . Their ability to decap nodes is the main reason they weren’t pushed out of the meta scene like ele’s and mesmer’s. That and the initial s/d buffs.

Phantaram.4816:

Yeah I agree s/p is too strong also. It’s actually even more of a nightmare than s/d for my ele in 1v1s. I don’t feel like s/p is as safe to play in team fights though.

A good ele running s/f with fresh air is also a nightmare against s/p in 1v1. S/p isn’t that different from s/d in team fights imo, less evades, but more daze/blind. Still the same step in for the kill, cleave/rupt, back away tactic.

Jelger.6758:

The only thing I find that is out of balance is their dmg/defense trade off. S/d doesn’t do a lot of damage but does have very good defensive capabilities (if played right) for the damage they do.

But I can think of some more offenders because the current meta is completely based on this. Deal too much damage for the defensive options you have. How else could we describe warrior’s being a damage dealer with defensive traits and utilities. And aren’t all rabid condi users essentially using a defensive amulet while still having more DPS output than a myriad of unviable berserker options.

I do think many people would like to see the Warrior reach some sort of balance between damage output and defense. I would like to see the same for the S/D thief and for any other “offender” to that principle.

Overall, I agree with Phantaram. I do think S/D deals too much damage considering the amount of damage they in return can avoid.

I think the actual problem is not the built-in evade of s/d but the combination of feline grace and vigour on heal+low cd on withdraw and yeah well.. lyssa runes but those are a problem in general.
Ideas:
- withdraw: cd and healing increased by 33% (20sec cd) or even 66% (25sec cd)
- feline grace: change it to a combination of flat endurance regeneration (50%) and endurance regain (7 or 8), so combining it with vigour (and signet of agility) becomes less powerful but still useful.

Reesha.7901:

Jelger.6758:

snip

Overall, I agree with Phantaram. I do think S/D deals too much damage considering the amount of damage they in return can avoid.

That is what I mean with their dmg/(active) defense balance being out of balance, but I really don’t think that this is the case versus many of the current meta builds out there. It’s not just warrior, rangers and many other condition builds have this as well. They just aren’t as capable in bringing it right into the ele’s face. But that’s the crux of all this. Elementalists don’t have a build that can play along in this meta game of dmg&defense and thus is left out. Active defense is excellent and far better than getting it passive immunities or passive stat boosts but I understand that the more mobile direct dmg version of your average meta condi build is a pain vs ele’s. The damage of a s/d thief isn’t that high and neither is their survival that great, it’s the combination through dmg&survival uptime that is the problem. Nerfing their damage would be weird (basic AA dmg) and nerfing their evades would be as well. ‘Nerfing’ the ability to skip the aftercast will only punish the better s/d players but is probably the best option balance wise. In general this is just an issue of ele’s getting hard-countered by s/d and one should get a slight shave up and the other a slight shave down to make it meaningful again. Thief vs ele matchups aren’t flat out broken like many other matchups currently are.

Jelger.6758:

S/p isn’t that different from s/d in team fights imo, less evades, but more daze/blind. Still the same step in for the kill, cleave/rupt, back away tactic.

I think S/D works in team comps like double war/ranger/guardian because it can mostly come out of fights alive if it wants to, the thief just has to know his limits. I don’t feel like S/P could execute what S/D does in that comp. S/P is typically thrown into more high damage comps where dagger thieves used to belong.

Anyways I feel like it’s the ultimate roamer and isn’t afraid. On most classes you could color a map with red/yellow/green at any given point with red being the most dangerous, and there’d be a mix of all 3 colors. S/D thief could just color the whole map green because there is no way he isn’t escaping a situation that isn’t a full on team fight.

Erzian.5218:

I think the actual problem is not the built-in evade of s/d but the combination of feline grace and vigour on heal+low cd on withdraw and yeah well.. lyssa runes but those are a problem in general.
Ideas:
- withdraw: cd and healing increased by 33% (20sec cd) or even 66% (25sec cd)
- feline grace: change it to a combination of flat endurance regeneration (50%) and endurance regain (7 or, so combining it with vigour (and signet of agility) becomes less powerful but still useful.

THIS!

Phantaram.4816:

Jelger.6758:

S/p isn’t that different from s/d in team fights imo, less evades, but more daze/blind. Still the same step in for the kill, cleave/rupt, back away tactic.

I think S/D works in team comps like double war/ranger/guardian because it can mostly come out of fights alive if it wants to, the thief just has to know his limits. I don’t feel like S/P could execute what S/D does in that comp. S/P is typically thrown into more high damage comps where dagger thieves used to belong.

Yeah I more or less agree, s/d works better in that cause s/d is a tad more reliable to cleave with then s/p but the difference isn’t that big. S/p sits in between s/d and d/p role wise. It has d/p’s traits, rupts & blinds but works the same in teamfights as far as stepping & evade cleaving is concerned.

Phantaram.4816:

Anyways I feel like it’s the ultimate roamer and isn’t afraid. On most classes you could color a map with red/yellow/green at any given point with red being the most dangerous, and there’d be a mix of all 3 colors. S/D thief could just color the whole map green because there is no way he isn’t escaping a situation that isn’t a full on team fight.

Escaping is fairly the same across all thief builds and is the identity of the class. I agree that is what often makes thieves the ultimate roamer in terms of mobility. Matchup wise I which there were less hard-counters all across the board so none would need to be ‘afraid’ when seeing a different class/build.

Jelger.6758:

In general this is just an issue of ele’s getting hard-countered by s/d and one should get a slight shave up and the other a slight shave down to make it meaningful again. Thief vs ele matchups aren’t flat out broken like many other matchups currently are.

I don’t think he is talking about the elementalist vs thief matchup in particular, just the S/D thief in general?

If we are going to talk about the specific matchups, a shatter mesmer is not particular happy when running into a S/D thief either.

Since those 2 professions are competing for a similar role on a team, I think it is somewhat problematic that the matchup greatly favors the thief.

yeah s/d is way too strong. currently it’s the best 1v1 spec in the game.

Reesha.7901:

Jelger.6758:

In general this is just an issue of ele’s getting hard-countered by s/d and one should get a slight shave up and the other a slight shave down to make it meaningful again. Thief vs ele matchups aren’t flat out broken like many other matchups currently are.

I don’t think he is talking about the elementalist vs thief matchup in particular, just the S/D thief in general?

If we are going to talk about the specific matchups, a shatter mesmer is not particular happy when running into a S/D thief either.

Since those 2 professions are competing for a similar role on a team, I think it is somewhat problematic that the matchup greatly favors the thief.

I strongly suspect that he mainly is talking about his exp as elementalist tho ;D kitten mesmer is not happy when running into most thief builds in a 1v1 scenario tbh, clusterbomb spam stalking the mesmer with the occasional evade deals with most kitten builds. But yeah this isn’t just about ele, very true.

Erzian.5218:

I think the actual problem is not the built-in evade of s/d but the combination of feline grace and vigour on heal+low cd on withdraw and yeah well.. lyssa runes but those are a problem in general.
Ideas:
- withdraw: cd and healing increased by 33% (20sec cd) or even 66% (25sec cd)
- feline grace: change it to a combination of flat endurance regeneration (50%) and endurance regain (7 or, so combining it with vigour (and signet of agility) becomes less powerful but still useful.

I agree with the synergy on feline grace being very good but withdraw & vigorous recovery isn’t that big tbh. With those changes I suspect both would just be dumped or worst case scenario the entire Acro trait line will be dropped for Trickery with bountiful theft. Which gives far better vigor uptime already. It’s feline’s grace as you pointed out that pushes it over the edge when compared to other classes.

DanSH.6143:

yeah s/d is way too strong. currently it’s the best 1v1 spec in the game.

Not even close. They’re a really strong berserker based 1v1 spec tho. Berserker in general isn’t very strong for 1v1’s tbh.

Phantaram.4816:

No other class can do that much raw damage with that much mobility and still bunker points 3v1 for large periods of time.

Some things that could be looked at to balance it.

1. Too much damage (I feel like this one is never brought up but the amount of raw damage an S/D thief can do is insane, and none of it is on a cooldown. Their burst and consistent damage are all the same thing, they are constantly doing both.)
2. Too much dodging
3. Lyssa runes

Bring up whatever else you think could be looked at balance wise for an S/D thief.

Thieves are really (extremely) viable in conquest tPvP, that’s for certain. Most of their viability stems from the massive decapping power (via mobility).

However, I’m of the opinion that they really need to be left alone. When a thief assaults a far point with a Warrior, Ranger, Engineer, MM Necro, DPS Guardian, often an S/D, S/P Thief is unable to quickly win a fight, if at all. And if this Thief DOES win out against their 1v1 target – they’re spending a significant amount of time off-point to avoid the target’s turn for retaliation.

S/D, S/P Thieves break glass mesmers, glass eles, and glass engies. Pretty much glass anything. However, like Reevz said, you just need to run a counter-thief on a mission to explode the enemy back-line thief, while he’s flexing on your glass X profession.

Now that sword 2 isn’t a get out of jail card if a good knockdown/bassy venom is in place.. coordinated ganks can really drop that thief trying to devastate your back-line.

With your claims that the Thieves you are facing are 1v3 bunkering your point, I’m sorry, but I can not relate or possibly fathom that happening to the other 3 equally skilled players. On NA, every single thief is 10/30/0/0/30 for various benefits, but it seems your gripe is with the Acrobatics thief.

As for your last couple points, too much dodging, and Lyssa runes, I definitely think both will be addressed soon. There’s an impending Rune and Sigil revamp, and we’ve seen nerfs to popular Engineer build’s ability to dodge.

After LS ini cost nerf, boon steal nerf, infiltrator’s return nerf and vigor nerf I think S/D is perfectly fine now.

People just don’t want to realize that you can’t spam 12345 to win against an evasion spec.
People don’t ask for advice but instead come to the forum and claim something to be OP.
I’ve almost never seen a thread asking for advice on how to beat a certain spec. That’s really sad imo…

Paulo.8459:

After LS ini cost nerf, boon steal nerf, infiltrator’s return nerf and vigor nerf I think S/D is perfectly fine now.

People just don’t want to realize that you can’t spam 12345 to win against an evasion spec.
People don’t ask for advice but instead come to the forum and claim something to be OP.
I’ve almost never seen a thread asking for advice on how to beat a certain spec. That’s really sad imo…

I have a hard time believing Phantaram or his team just “spam” skills. :P

Reesha.7901:

Paulo.8459:

After LS ini cost nerf, boon steal nerf, infiltrator’s return nerf and vigor nerf I think S/D is perfectly fine now.

People just don’t want to realize that you can’t spam 12345 to win against an evasion spec.
People don’t ask for advice but instead come to the forum and claim something to be OP.
I’ve almost never seen a thread asking for advice on how to beat a certain spec. That’s really sad imo…

I have a hard time believing Phantaram or his team just “spam” skills. :P

That was just an exaggeration to make clear what i was trying to say.

Chaith.8256:

-snip-
However, I’m of the opinion that they really need to be left alone. When a thief assaults a far point with a Warrior, Ranger, Engineer, MM Necro, DPS Guardian, often an S/D, S/P Thief is unable to quickly win a fight, if at all. And if this Thief DOES win out against their 1v1 target – they’re spending a significant amount of time off-point to avoid the target’s turn for retaliation.

S/D, S/P Thieves break glass mesmers, glass eles, and glass engies. Pretty much glass anything. However, like Reevz said, you just need to run a counter-thief on a mission to explode the enemy back-line thief, while he’s flexing on your glass X profession.
-snip-

I agree with Chaith’s assessment of the situational overall, but it’s the glass vs glass part that I believe is causing most of the ruckus. S/d thief is overrated vs non berserker builds. S/d being able to break “pretty much glass anything” as you put it yourself would hamper build viability ofc. :p

I’m not certain how good s/d with it’s current nerfs is against good glass ele, mesm, engi since there are a bunch of other things keeping those in check as well.

Reesha.7901:

Since those 2 professions are competing for a similar role on a team, I think it is somewhat problematic that the matchup greatly favors the thief.

Same relationship between Necromancers and Engineers. Same roles, absolute hard counter. There’s no conceivable way for the equally skilled Engi to beat a Necro that’s 1v1 oriented. (Golem, Spite, Corrupt Boon, even Plague Signet I’ve seen LOL).

But outside the 1v1, say, in a teamfight – there’s not even a way for an Engineer to counter-pressure the Necro if he’s able to over-extend. You pretty much completely starfish while the Necro enters you.

I’ll admit, even as an experienced condi Engineer I would lose to anyone picking up that Necro build for the first game.

But that’s alright, in the grand scheme of conquest. Fortunately there are a ton of ways to work around the hard counters in this game. For example, as an Engineer, simply bail on the objective rather than 1v1 a Necro. In a teamfight, have your Guardian pop resolve, which has about a 37.5% chance of removing the 20 second cripple, enabling the Engi to dip off point to survive.

Jelger.6758:

Erzian.5218:

I think the actual problem is not the built-in evade of s/d but the combination of feline grace and vigour on heal+low cd on withdraw and yeah well.. lyssa runes but those are a problem in general.
Ideas:
- withdraw: cd and healing increased by 33% (20sec cd) or even 66% (25sec cd)
- feline grace: change it to a combination of flat endurance regeneration (50%) and endurance regain (7 or 8), so combining it with vigour (and signet of agility) becomes less powerful but still useful.

I agree with the synergy on feline grace being very good but withdraw & vigorous recovery isn’t that big tbh. With those changes I suspect both would just be dumped or worst case scenario the entire Acro trait line will be dropped for Trickery with bountiful theft. Which gives far better vigor uptime already. It’s feline’s grace as you pointed out that pushes it over the edge when compared to other classes.

You could simply increase vigour duration of vigorous recovery by 2 (20sec withdraw) or 3 or maybe 4 (25 sec withdraw) to keep roughly the same amount of vigour uptime, while still nerfing the extra dodge granted by withdraw, thus the overall amount of dodges.

I kinda dislike that the AA dps = 3# dps.

On shortbow when you evade , you are losing offense. If im not mistaken, lacerator strike even makes the dps slightly higher than AA.

Id give it back the 2 boonstrip , but lower the dmg.

Or how was old s/d thief which used CnD with blinds/daze ? Could it be balanced?

Chaith.8256:

Same relationship between Necromancers and Engineers. Same roles, absolute hard counter. There’s no conceivable way for the equally skilled Engi to beat a Necro that’s 1v1 oriented. (Golem, Spite, Corrupt Boon, even Plague Signet I’ve seen LOL).

I’ll admit, even as an experienced condi Engineer I would lose to anyone picking up that Necro build for the first game.

But that’s alright, in the grand scheme of conquest. Fortunately there are a ton of ways to work around the hard counters in this game.

Maybe there is, but considering Mesmers will be nerfed next patch, and considering they are currently not that common in teams, I don’t see them being back in the meta anytime soon. I do not play an Engineer, so I am not going to pretend to know anything about them.

I do think it is problematic, when one profession lock out others and no, that does not only apply to Thieves, they just happen to be one of the professions currently being in that position.

Romek.4201:

i think evade skills should have a endurance cost from -15%-20% (its resource for evades so it have to cost some endurance)

would stop spam and would have fixed the bunker rangerz ages ago too

Great idea but it should be applied to any defense mechanism (like stealth, blink, shadowstep, etc) too. Otherwise it won’t be balanced because it’ll nerf Ranger more than any other classes;

/jk

I will ask 4 simple questions. Should a weapon set be killed that is already dead in every other game type due to nerfs in Spvp be killed in Spvp As well? Should a class already facing big nerfs be nerfed yet again for the sake of spvp the least played game mode? Should non stealth builds be nerfed further? Is there an underlying culprit that should be addressed first?

Reevz.2617:

yep, not just s/d though s/p even— sword mainhand teleport is kinda kittened. on demand instant gap closer that also immobilizes and you can teleport back with it? you can pre cast pistol whip and teleport. but in all honesty thiefs in general right now are too powerful they fill their niche role, and only thiefs can counter thiefs ;/

Seriously? I used to have some pretty major respect for you as a player, not sure about that any more after this post though.

The immobilize is extremely short (1s), especially compared to immobilizes of other classes. I’d be okay with removing the immobilize on #2, but only if every other class had the vast majority of their immobilizes reduced by at least 1s as well.

Also, IS is not an instant gap closer. In fact, overall, the entirety of its animation (from activation to damage to being able to use your next skill) is quite long, empirically speaking. It’s not skill-breakingly long, but it’s certainly more than you seem to be saying. Also, the teleportation back is a double-edged blade. As long as it’s up (which is a fairly long time) you’re unable to use IS again, and using it prematurely (or at all) can cause you to get off-point. It is also the an expression of the single defining characteristic of S/X builds- mobility. Without it, our mobility is practically zero, and all skillful play involving high levels of positioning and tactics go right out the window.

There are only two realistic ways to pre-cast PW and teleport to your target (Steal and Infi Signet), and if you’re any good at reading casts, you should be able to see these coming. If not, you can still stunbreak out of them with minimal damage dealt to you.

I can kill just about any thief with any class right now (the exception being non-Spirit Rangers, and possibly elementalist). I can counter them because I understand how their cast times work, how their aftercasts work, and how their general strategies work. Hell, I don’t even have to run the “strong meta” builds against them, I just run my own builds. I can easily crush a thief with my 0/20/30/20/0 S/F + GS Lockdown Mesmer, or with my 20/20/0/20/10 Rifle + EG Elixir engi. I can give thieves a taste of their own medicine with my 0/30/30/5/5 Sw/Sh + St Guardian build, or I can beat them positionally with my 0/0/20/30/20 Ele Area Control build. It’s not any type of challenge, it’s simple knowledge of how to counter thief, and then implementation of that knowledge.

Phantaram.4816:

No other class can do that much raw damage with that much mobility and still bunker points 3v1 for large periods of time.

Some things that could be looked at to balance it.

1. Too much damage (I feel like this one is never brought up but the amount of raw damage an S/D thief can do is insane, and none of it is on a cooldown. Their burst and consistent damage are all the same thing, they are constantly doing both.)
2. Too much dodging
3. Lyssa runes

Bring up whatever else you think could be looked at balance wise for an S/D thief.

if this post were from another Player , the community would also troll you
but its @Phantaram!!!!!!!!!
rly not meant bad but explain Situation more, you mean you+2of your teammates werent able to kill a thief which is only doing dodgerolls or is he doing only 33333333 with his s/d build or did he also using stealth ….?! Did you played your staff ele?!

I mean I go with the Attention of an evade on flankingstrikes is a bit to much to handle and if you dont have much hardCC or much dps , also the effect of using Lyssa on ….realy Evvvvery build which has acces to low cd elite
BUT nerving dodge mechanic on thief would also nerf stealthless builds which skill effort is very high and not high rewarded when playing against 3 Player.

Going to agree with phantaram here the s/d build is far to strong. NA doesn’t have any good s/d thief so anyone here posting about it from NA really needs to see some EU s/d thiefs.

The thread here has been right though its along the lines of the warrior right now, it just has to much of everything. I don’t want s/d to not be viable but atm they have everything. They can evade spam (sb needs some looking into) dodge spam (agility signet still OP it refills entire parties endurance) and still has the strongest mobility in the game combined with decent to high damage.

I don’t main thief so my opinion on nerfs isn’t the best but maybe nerf shortbow and agility signet… Those 2 are broken and need nerfed.

Phantaram.4816:

No other class can do that much raw damage with that much mobility and still bunker points 3v1 for large periods of time.

Some things that could be looked at to balance it.

1. Too much damage (I feel like this one is never brought up but the amount of raw damage an S/D thief can do is insane, and none of it is on a cooldown. Their burst and consistent damage are all the same thing, they are constantly doing both.)
2. Too much dodging
3. Lyssa runes

Bring up whatever else you think could be looked at balance wise for an S/D thief.

I believe the best balance that could be applied to S/D is for other players to roll an S/D thief, and learn how it plays. There’s literally nothing else that can be done, seeing as your above list is painfully lacking in any sort of details or proximity to the truth.

1. Burst? With S/D? Do you mean Mug + Larcenous strike? Or maybe CS followed by LS (which would require completing an AA chain in the 5 seconds LS is up after an FS, all while your opponent ignored the 2 very obvious 1/2s cast animations for CS and LS AND the thief survived without any of his defensive skills besides for dodge)? because that’s literally as hard as S/D can hit in a second, and while “burst” isn’t a strictly defined term, there’s easily a dozen setups that can hit harder in half the time – S/D is characterized by it’s lack of burst.

Yes, the consistent damage is there because, well, if the set didn’t have any consistent damage OR burst it’d be a pretty worthless direct damage set. Most of S/D’s damage is concentrated into CS (end of AA chain) and LS – both with 1/2s casts and obvious animations. There’s very little incentive to dodge anything else S/D can throw at you (slice, slash, DD, CnD, FS all do kitten poor damage) so you shouldn’t have a hard time with just CS and LS.

2. If you’re having trouble with FS, like I suggested at the start of this post, roll an S/D thief. It’s a very obvious animation with very low damage that locks LS in place for 5 seconds afterwards – if you can’t figure out how to counter that, playing as an S/D thief and watching your opponents counter it should be helpful. S/D has to roll with glass stats just to do viable consistent damage – you don’t need to waste dodge’s on anything that isn’t LS/CS, and the S/D thief likely has to dodge a majority of your attacks (including Auto-attack) just to survive long enough to kill you – use this knowledge and the experience you gain while playing S/D to your advantage.

3. If you’re having trouble with a rune set that offers 5/6 underpowered bonuses for over 90% of the fight, then offers extremely powerful bonuses for 5-6s, plan accordingly – if you can plan to use an immunity skill/block/have protection or stability up (those things thieves don’t get) when you see a thief casting BV (since it’s an obvious 1s cast), you can almost completely counter the entire runeset. This is as opposed to other runesets (Pack, ogre, Scholar, etc) that would offer worthwhile bonuses for the entirety of the fight, and can’t be countered by planning out 5s of a fight.

Phantaram.4816:

No other class can do that much raw damage with that much mobility and still bunker points 3v1 for large periods of time.

….

Warrior /thread

Btw your nerf request has been added to the nerf wish list, there’s a link in my signature.

Jelger.6758:

Reesha.7901:

Jelger.6758:

snip

…

That is what I mean with their dmg/(active) defense balance being out of balance, but I really don’t think that this is the case versus many of the current meta builds out there. It’s not just warrior, rangers and many other condition builds have this as well. They just aren’t as capable in bringing it right into the ele’s face. But that’s the crux of all this. Elementalists don’t have a build that can play along in this meta game of dmg&defense and thus is left out. Active defense is excellent and far better than getting it passive immunities or passive stat boosts but I understand that the more mobile direct dmg version of your average meta condi build is a pain vs ele’s. The damage of a s/d thief isn’t that high and neither is their survival that great, it’s the combination through dmg&survival uptime that is the problem. Nerfing their damage would be weird (basic AA dmg) and nerfing their evades would be as well. ‘Nerfing’ the ability to skip the aftercast will only punish the better s/d players but is probably the best option balance wise. In general this is just an issue of ele’s getting hard-countered by s/d and one should get a slight shave up and the other a slight shave down to make it meaningful again. Thief vs ele matchups aren’t flat out broken like many other matchups currently are.

justify s/d thiefs with current powercreeps seems stupid.

Phantaram.4816:

Phantaram.4816:

..

I believe the best balance that could be applied to S/D is for other players to roll an S/D thief, and learn how it plays. There’s literally nothing else that can be done, seeing as your above list is painfully lacking in any sort of details or proximity to the truth.

1. Burst? With S/D? Do you mean Mug + Larcenous strike? Or maybe CS followed by LS (which would require completing an AA chain in the 5 seconds LS is up after an FS, all while your opponent ignored the 2 very obvious 1/2s cast animations for CS and LS AND the thief survived without any of his defensive skills besides for dodge)? because that’s literally as hard as S/D can hit in a second, and while “burst” isn’t a strictly defined term, there’s easily a dozen setups that can hit harder in half the time – S/D is characterized by it’s lack of burst.

Yes, the consistent damage is there because, well, if the set didn’t have any consistent damage OR burst it’d be a pretty worthless direct damage set. Most of S/D’s damage is concentrated into CS (end of AA chain) and LS – both with 1/2s casts and obvious animations. There’s very little incentive to dodge anything else S/D can throw at you (slice, slash, DD, CnD, FS all do kitten poor damage) so you shouldn’t have a hard time with just CS and LS.

2. If you’re having trouble with FS, like I suggested at the start of this post, roll an S/D thief. It’s a very obvious animation with very low damage that locks LS in place for 5 seconds afterwards – if you can’t figure out how to counter that, playing as an S/D thief and watching your opponents counter it should be helpful. S/D has to roll with glass stats just to do viable consistent damage – you don’t need to waste dodge’s on anything that isn’t LS/CS, and the S/D thief likely has to dodge a majority of your attacks (including Auto-attack) just to survive long enough to kill you – use this knowledge and the experience you gain while playing S/D to your advantage.

3. If you’re having trouble with a rune set that offers 5/6 underpowered bonuses for over 90% of the fight, then offers extremely powerful bonuses for 5-6s, plan accordingly – if you can plan to use an immunity skill/block/have protection or stability up (those things thieves don’t get) when you see a thief casting BV (since it’s an obvious 1s cast), you can almost completely counter the entire runeset. This is as opposed to other runesets (Pack, ogre, Scholar, etc) that would offer worthwhile bonuses for the entirety of the fight, and can’t be countered by planning out 5s of a fight.

1. u should read the dmg coeff. of skills. nr3 chain does nearly the same dmg as aa. on the same time nr3 chain destroyes any defense based on boons and provides surv. with evades.

2. low damage? u mean vs all the other broken specs? sure.. against normal balanced specs? no. locks in place for 5seconds? sorry, but u are a bad thief. i hope u know that a thief can cancel the aftercasts on s/d.

3. lyssa provides low bonus? only the 6 is worth it? lol.. i suggest that u look at withdraw and rune bonus for 4 of the 6. counter basiliskvenom on a 36/45 second cooldown with anything that has nearly double the recharge? sure? or boons? just lol.

hooma.9642:

1. u should read the dmg coeff. of skills. nr3 chain does nearly the same dmg as aa. on the same time nr3 chain destroyes any defense based on boons and provides surv. with evades.

That last sentence is proof enough you have little experience with S/D Thief. When LS stole 2 boons, it most certainly did destroy boon based defenses (which was it’s initial design goal). Now that it only steals 1, it does nothing to boon based bunkers. I learned that about 5 minutes after the patch that changed LS to 1 boon steal, when I fought a guardian who covered his protection, 17 stacks of might, and other vital boons with junk that I couldn’t strip faster than he could produce – it’s exactly like it was pre FS/LS split, when FS stripped 1 boon – useless for countering boon bunkers.

I’m not sure exactly what your point was – what does AA and FS/LS doing similar overall damage matter when we’re talking burst? What does either have to do with CS and LS being the only skills in S/D that do any damage?

2. low damage? u mean vs all the other broken specs? sure.. against normal balanced specs? no. locks in place for 5seconds? sorry, but u are a bad thief. i hope u know that a thief can cancel the aftercasts on s/d.

Speaking of damage coefficients like you did early, why don’t you post some math for FS – keep it simple, go to gw2skills and spec out an effective S/D setup – you’ll see FS does ~550 damage in a full glass setup. You’re going to have a hard time convincing anyone that 550 damage isn’t low for any class running a glass cannon setup. Please also feel free to explain how dodging clears LS and allows FS to be used again within 5 seconds.

3. lyssa provides low bonus? only the 6 is worth it? lol.. i suggest that u look at withdraw and rune bonus for 4 of the 6. counter basiliskvenom on a 36/45 second cooldown with anything that has nearly double the recharge? sure? or boons? just lol.

165 precision is much weaker than 165 power for an S/D thief – considerably so. 10% condition duration – yay, Serpent’s touch lasts another second. That leaves a random boon on heal (which is just that, random – it will be at times useful, and at other times useless), and the 6 piece, which is where all the value of the set lies.
Insinuating that BV might have a 36s CD with an S/D thief (which would require 20 points in DA and quick venoms, of all things) is laughable – you’ll never see an S/D thief with 20 points in DA – the fact that you would even suggest this casts serious doubt on your ability to understand how an S/D thief even works.

Thief is still imbalanced when you compare it to the two other classes that have held that ‘roamer’ role: elementalist and mesmer.

evilapprentice.6379:

hooma.9642:

1. u should read the dmg coeff. of skills. nr3 chain does nearly the same dmg as aa. on the same time nr3 chain destroyes any defense based on boons and provides surv. with evades.

That last sentence is proof enough you have little experience with S/D Thief. When LS stole 2 boons, it most certainly did destroy boon based defenses (which was it’s initial design goal). Now that it only steals 1, it does nothing to boon based bunkers. I learned that about 5 minutes after the patch that changed LS to 1 boon steal, when I fought a guardian who covered his protection, 17 stacks of might, and other vital boons with junk that I couldn’t strip faster than he could produce – it’s exactly like it was pre FS/LS split, when FS stripped 1 boon – useless for countering boon bunkers.

I’m not sure exactly what your point was – what does AA and FS/LS doing similar overall damage matter when we’re talking burst? What does either have to do with CS and LS being the only skills in S/D that do any damage?

2. low damage? u mean vs all the other broken specs? sure.. against normal balanced specs? no. locks in place for 5seconds? sorry, but u are a bad thief. i hope u know that a thief can cancel the aftercasts on s/d.

Speaking of damage coefficients like you did early, why don’t you post some math for FS – keep it simple, go to gw2skills and spec out an effective S/D setup – you’ll see FS does ~550 damage in a full glass setup. You’re going to have a hard time convincing anyone that 550 damage isn’t low for any class running a glass cannon setup. Please also feel free to explain how dodging clears LS and allows FS to be used again within 5 seconds.

3. lyssa provides low bonus? only the 6 is worth it? lol.. i suggest that u look at withdraw and rune bonus for 4 of the 6. counter basiliskvenom on a 36/45 second cooldown with anything that has nearly double the recharge? sure? or boons? just lol.

165 precision is much weaker than 165 power for an S/D thief – considerably so. 10% condition duration – yay, Serpent’s touch lasts another second. That leaves a random boon on heal (which is just that, random – it will be at times useful, and at other times useless), and the 6 piece, which is where all the value of the set lies.
Insinuating that BV might have a 36s CD with an S/D thief (which would require 20 points in DA and quick venoms, of all things) is laughable – you’ll never see an S/D thief with 20 points in DA – the fact that you would even suggest this casts serious doubt on your ability to understand how an S/D thief even works.

1. just as hint.. boon generation was nerfed. esp vigor.. so stripping vigor is very crucial in certain builds.
2. if u believe the dmg shown in skilleditor is the exact amount of dmg u do, well i should stop argue with u if u have no glue about the importance of skillcoeffs.
3. its total waste to argue with u, first u provide example nobody talks about to justify something. second u pick only half of arguments to prove something.. well i wasnt stating bv is on 36 recharge. i said 36/45! thats all information to show how op bv + lyssa is and was esp against the argument to counter it with high recharge stuff.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQJAsYEBnTEbP2pQ5pWBa29gry3qA-TgAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFB
aa avg dmg with 20% dmg and 12 add critchange: 1960,12 per second against an 2600 armor, complete seq 4939,57 dmg on a 2,52 seconds intervall
nr3 chain dmg: 3832,43

so how long does it take to complete the nr3 chain? less than 2,52 seconds i assume as safespot. that shows nr3 chain does more dmg then aa.. so nobody should ever complain fs+ls does less dmg then aa.

skillcoeffs of aa: 0,8;0,8; 1,3
skillcoeffs of nr3: 0,75;1,5

so phantaram was also true regarding burst if we consider ls has the highest skillcoeff in this build

Phantaram.4816:

No other class can do that much raw damage with that much mobility and still bunker points 3v1 for large periods of time.

Some things that could be looked at to balance it.

1. Too much damage (I feel like this one is never brought up but the amount of raw damage an S/D thief can do is insane, and none of it is on a cooldown. Their burst and consistent damage are all the same thing, they are constantly doing both.)
2. Too much dodging
3. Lyssa runes

Bring up whatever else you think could be looked at balance wise for an S/D thief.

You are about 3 months too late with this post. Most people have moved onto S/P.

Phantaram.4816:

1. Too much damage

I’ve been saying this since launch! Come to WvW and see how ridiculous Thieves scale with Ascended gear.

DeWolfe.2174:

Phantaram.4816:

1. Too much damage

I’ve been saying this since launch! Come to WvW and see how ridiculous Thieves scale with Ascended gear.

Exactly. Add in 25 stacks of bloodlust, consumables, the +30/40/50 stat bonus from Borderland’s bloodlust and guard leech. WvWvW has way too much power creep. This has been told to the developers for a long long time, yet nothing has happened.

The damage is at insane levels in WvWvW. Warrior’s killshot and eviscerate can of course deliver the highest hitting single attack in the game (>20k against medium armor on crit meaning one-shotting against many characters), but both of those are usually well telegraphed and easy to dodge. One rarely sees complains about these as a full berserker warrior doesn’t have the all the evades, shadowstepping and stealth the thief has.

Conjure elementalists (lighting hammer and fiery sword) can potentially do even more dps it seems (haven’t really done the tests), so if Arenanet rightfully increases the survivability of elementalists, they can be very easily pushed over the top as some elementalist builds can dish out both crazy burst and DPS. I think elementalists deserve some more survivability, but the top DPS and burst should also be toned down at same time.

I love these threads, these are the kinds of threads that really show some players don’t know why S/D has so many dodges, or does SO MUCH DAMAGE.

Fun Fact: ( I hate repeating myself) 30 into acrobatics gives a lot dodges!

Fun Fact: 30 into Critical Strikes gives a lot of damage!

Joking aside, but its almost like no one knows that this has nothing to do with sword dagger at all. I could play…anything literally any weapon set and have the same results with x/30/x/30/x really now. Back in October I would say you could S/P and have the same amount disengage, same damage, only little less evades, but for blinds, interrupt, and a stun. S/P is actually decent now with the small buff it was given.

Leaving these here for the people that don’t know what they are:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/First_Strikes

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feline_Grace

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fluid_Strikes

Also Lyssa runes do need to be changed, but not only because how good they are on thieves.

Reevz.2617:

yep, not just s/d though s/p even— sword mainhand teleport is kinda kittened. on demand instant gap closer that also immobilizes and you can teleport back with it? you can pre cast pistol whip and teleport. but in all honesty thiefs in general right now are too powerful they fill their niche role, and only thiefs can counter thiefs ;/

You are so wrong here its obvious you have NO IDEA how thief main hand sword works.
Sword skill 2 can’t be cast while you are using another skill

it’s not so op …. but its pathetic those who spam #3 none stop lol

3 spam does not do much damage . all it does is strip one boon every second move if it hits … u need to spam it if u want to steal enough boons to make a difference
which leaves u with no initiative :S
it is not even a good idea to spam it unless they have way to many boons

EoNxBoNx.9213:

I love these threads, these are the kinds of threads that really show some players don’t know why S/D has so many dodges, or does SO MUCH DAMAGE.

Fun Fact: ( I hate repeating myself) 30 into acrobatics gives a lot dodges!

Fun Fact: 30 into Critical Strikes gives a lot of damage!

Joking aside, but its almost like no one knows that this has nothing to do with sword dagger at all. I could play…anything literally any weapon set and have the same results with x/30/x/30/x really now. Back in October I would say you could S/P and have the same amount disengage, same damage, only little less evades, but for blinds, interrupt, and a stun. S/P is actually decent now with the small buff it was given.

Leaving these here for the people that don’t know what they are:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/First_Strikes

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feline_Grace

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fluid_Strikes

Also Lyssa runes do need to be changed, but not only because how good they are on thieves.

obv. math isnt your strength

fun fact 1: its dodges + evades
fun fact 2: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feline_Grace gives 15 Endurance back. thats 30% of 1 dodge. means u need 3,33 dodges to get 1 back
fun fact 3: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Recovery + http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw gives more endurance back
fun fact 4: its the combination of 2 and 3
fun fact 5: critical strikes is used in a lot of builds. every traitline except shadow arts gives a dmg boost on 25 traitpoints.
fun fact 6: ls is unblockable
fun fact 7: fs has a 0.75 dmg coeff. thats 5% less than autoattack 1 & 2 chainskill
fun fact 8: ls has a 1.5 dmg coeff. thats 20% more than autoattack chainskill 3
fun fact 9: fs+ls is faster than aa and provides per second more dmg
fun fact 10: all evadesskills on ranger as example have a recharge. 2 have 0.7 dmg coeff, 1 has 0.2, 1 has 0.4, the one on greatsword has 0.65 and require to complete the whole chain.
fun fact 11: s/p pistolwhip does less dmg than aa + self root + no autopathing like fs+ls
fun fact 12: shortbow nr3 has a dmg coeff of 0.4 so why not fs?
fun fact 13: unless stunned or dazed ir = out of jail card
fun fact 14: unless on s/p no self root so if not fact 13 then disengage on demand
fun fact 15: is can be precast without enemy

suggestion either lower the amount of dodges or evades, what would imho maybe hurt other builds that are more balanced and not borderline broken i would change following
- fs skillcoeef to 0.4.. its a evade after all!
- ls remove the unblockable part. its a heavy hitter!
- is can only be cast in range of a enemy and the teleport only happens if a hit would be successfull.

or
- fs + 1 initiative
- ls + 1
- is + 2
- +new way to remove condis

saddest thread in a long time

hooma.9642:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

I love these threads, these are the kinds of threads that really show some players don’t know why S/D has so many dodges, or does SO MUCH DAMAGE.

Fun Fact: ( I hate repeating myself) 30 into acrobatics gives a lot dodges!

Fun Fact: 30 into Critical Strikes gives a lot of damage!

Joking aside, but its almost like no one knows that this has nothing to do with sword dagger at all. I could play…anything literally any weapon set and have the same results with x/30/x/30/x really now. Back in October I would say you could S/P and have the same amount disengage, same damage, only little less evades, but for blinds, interrupt, and a stun. S/P is actually decent now with the small buff it was given.

Leaving these here for the people that don’t know what they are:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/First_Strikes

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feline_Grace

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fluid_Strikes

Also Lyssa runes do need to be changed, but not only because how good they are on thieves.

obv. math isnt your strength

fun fact 1: its dodges + evades
fun fact 2: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feline_Grace gives 15 Endurance back. thats 30% of 1 dodge. means u need 3,33 dodges to get 1 back
fun fact 3: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Recovery + http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw gives more endurance back
fun fact 4: its the combination of 2 and 3
fun fact 5: critical strikes is used in a lot of builds. every traitline except shadow arts gives a dmg boost on 25 traitpoints.
fun fact 6: ls is unblockable
fun fact 7: fs has a 0.75 dmg coeff. thats 5% less than autoattack 1 & 2 chainskill
fun fact 8: ls has a 1.5 dmg coeff. thats 20% more than autoattack chainskill 3
fun fact 9: fs+ls is faster than aa and provides per second more dmg
fun fact 10: all evadesskills on ranger as example have a recharge. 2 have 0.7 dmg coeff, 1 has 0.2, 1 has 0.4, the one on greatsword has 0.65 and require to complete the whole chain.
fun fact 11: s/p pistolwhip does less dmg than aa + self root + no autopathing like fs+ls
fun fact 12: shortbow nr3 has a dmg coeff of 0.4 so why not fs?
fun fact 13: unless stunned or dazed ir = out of jail card
fun fact 14: unless on s/p no self root so if not fact 13 then disengage on demand
fun fact 15: is can be precast without enemy

suggestion either lower the amount of dodges or evades, what would imho maybe hurt other builds that are more balanced and not borderline broken i would change following
- fs skillcoeef to 0.4.. its a evade after all!
- ls remove the unblockable part. its a heavy hitter!
- is can only be cast in range of a enemy and the teleport only happens if a hit would be successfull.

or
- fs + 1 initiative
- ls + 1
- is + 2
- +new way to remove condis

Your comparisons are mostly pointless, when they’re not hyperbolic or loosely defined. You compare Thief to Ranger evade skills, but strangely forget to mention Ranger’s better base HP, access to immunity skills, and strong access to protection and Regeneration- all things that should be taken into consideration when we’re comparing defensive skills. Let’s not also forget that you’re comparing damage coefficients on the one class in the game that has a dedicated pet, and therefore sees lower damage coefficients on it’s skills

Fun “Facts” 1 through 8 don’t seem to serve a purpose for your argument – they’re just basic information we’re all already aware of. 9, while technically true, is misleading – AA and FS-LS Spam do nearly the same amount of damage – I believe FS-LS spam might do ~12% more damage than AA over the same time period (Without cripple or weakness while costing initiative, mind you). I pointed out my issue with 10 in the previous paragraph. Points 11-15 just seem like disjointed thoughts.

This long rant just seems like alot of “I Hate S/D thieves because they’re annoying to fight” rather than an argument based on merit.

evilapprentice.6379:

hooma.9642:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

I love these threads, these are the kinds of threads that really show some players don’t know why S/D has so many dodges, or does SO MUCH DAMAGE.

Fun Fact: ( I hate repeating myself) 30 into acrobatics gives a lot dodges!

Fun Fact: 30 into Critical Strikes gives a lot of damage!

Joking aside, but its almost like no one knows that this has nothing to do with sword dagger at all. I could play…anything literally any weapon set and have the same results with x/30/x/30/x really now. Back in October I would say you could S/P and have the same amount disengage, same damage, only little less evades, but for blinds, interrupt, and a stun. S/P is actually decent now with the small buff it was given.

Leaving these here for the people that don’t know what they are:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/First_Strikes

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feline_Grace

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fluid_Strikes

Also Lyssa runes do need to be changed, but not only because how good they are on thieves.

obv. math isnt your strength

fun fact 1: its dodges + evades
fun fact 2: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feline_Grace gives 15 Endurance back. thats 30% of 1 dodge. means u need 3,33 dodges to get 1 back
fun fact 3: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Recovery + http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw gives more endurance back
fun fact 4: its the combination of 2 and 3
fun fact 5: critical strikes is used in a lot of builds. every traitline except shadow arts gives a dmg boost on 25 traitpoints.
fun fact 6: ls is unblockable
fun fact 7: fs has a 0.75 dmg coeff. thats 5% less than autoattack 1 & 2 chainskill
fun fact 8: ls has a 1.5 dmg coeff. thats 20% more than autoattack chainskill 3
fun fact 9: fs+ls is faster than aa and provides per second more dmg
fun fact 10: all evadesskills on ranger as example have a recharge. 2 have 0.7 dmg coeff, 1 has 0.2, 1 has 0.4, the one on greatsword has 0.65 and require to complete the whole chain.
fun fact 11: s/p pistolwhip does less dmg than aa + self root + no autopathing like fs+ls
fun fact 12: shortbow nr3 has a dmg coeff of 0.4 so why not fs?
fun fact 13: unless stunned or dazed ir = out of jail card
fun fact 14: unless on s/p no self root so if not fact 13 then disengage on demand
fun fact 15: is can be precast without enemy

suggestion either lower the amount of dodges or evades, what would imho maybe hurt other builds that are more balanced and not borderline broken i would change following
- fs skillcoeef to 0.4.. its a evade after all!
- ls remove the unblockable part. its a heavy hitter!
- is can only be cast in range of a enemy and the teleport only happens if a hit would be successfull.

or
- fs + 1 initiative
- ls + 1
- is + 2
- +new way to remove condis

Your comparisons are mostly pointless, when they’re not hyperbolic or loosely defined. You compare Thief to Ranger evade skills, but strangely forget to mention Ranger’s better base HP, access to immunity skills, and strong access to protection and Regeneration- all things that should be taken into consideration when we’re comparing defensive skills. Let’s not also forget that you’re comparing damage coefficients on the one class in the game that has a dedicated pet, and therefore sees lower damage coefficients on it’s skills

Fun “Facts” 1 through 8 don’t seem to serve a purpose for your argument – they’re just basic information we’re all already aware of. 9, while technically true, is misleading – AA and FS-LS Spam do nearly the same amount of damage – I believe FS-LS spam might do ~12% more damage than AA over the same time period (Without cripple or weakness while costing initiative, mind you). I pointed out my issue with 10 in the previous paragraph. Points 11-15 just seem like disjointed thoughts.

This long rant just seems like alot of “I Hate S/D thieves because they’re annoying to fight” rather than an argument based on merit.

basic information 1-8 and esp 9? well i suggest reread the complete thread.

i wasnt comparing the evadesskills of ranger, i was telling the skillcoeffs. nothing more. what i had compared was the shortbow 3 with flankings strike. same evade time, same cost but different dmg coeffs. 11-15 disjoints? well maybe u should watch some highlevel play of s/d and s/p to see the difference and whats make s/d so strong.

hooma.9642:

i wasnt comparing the evadesskills of ranger, i was telling the skillcoeffs.

So you brought up rangers evades, unbidden…for funsies? You weren’t drawing a comparison, you were just typing out some facts….for no reason whatsover? It’s not as if the person you were quoting had brought up rangers… its fine to be wrong, just own up to it.

what i had compared was the shortbow 3 with flankings strike. same evade time, same cost but different dmg coeffs.

FS is riskier because it’s melee range and moves you toward your opponent, it should have a higher coefficient. All you did was compare the evade frames and claim the coefficient should be identical, completely ignoring all the other things that are different about the skill – you’re not interested in a discussion, you’re interested in nerfing S/D – there’s a difference

11-15 disjoints? well maybe u should watch some highlevel play of s/d and s/p to see the difference and whats make s/d so strong.

This doesn’t make your points any less disjointed – feel free to post some video’s and give me your synopsis of them, but just telling me “Find a video” isn’t helping your point.

I’m not claiming here that S/D isn’t strong – just that it isn’t OP. It’s a high skill cap
build (it used to be much higher) that’s powerful in the right hands, but it’s not OP or without counter – All you need to do is play one for a bit and you’ll quickly learn it’s weaknesses.

Jesus it’s an evade build… I remember when this game first came out. My buddies and i roaming in WvW. We always came across this ranger, god his name has escaped me… I want to say it was Loyal less… any way i don’t think i ran by this bad @$$ one time and didn’t see him in a 1v3. All evades. Did we call it OP? hell no. A player that can utilize his evades isn’t OP. They are attentive. Trait max into Acrobatics and receive more evades… That just sounds right to me

Reposting from thief forumz

Sensotix.4106:

the 2 vs 1 from teldo at waterfall…i spoke to ben (lord nag nag nag) and he said both didnt want to waste their cooldowns since they thought it would be an easy matchup

well i thought i had to bring it up because i saw a s/d thief winning a 1 vs 1 vs warri..vs spirit ranger…vs necro..vs the other thief without loosing even 50% of his hp

BUT

Resume: I was really happy to have this discussion here and I am glad that I did post this thread here and not in the structured pvp section because there I wouldnt have gotten many impressions from thieves.
I am happy that most of you tried to stay obejctive and tell me exactly how they feel about it and actually came up with some interesting ideas that I really appreciate

And I also have to admit that I have tried to be a little bit provocative so I can see who of you guys really stays objective and calm because I was searching for an experienced thief to interview about changes he wants to see in the game/his class

Thanks for everything guys it was a pleasure to discuss with u!

Thief interview will hopefully follow soon

just wanted to ump in and remember you a thing.

And mind, it was pre inf strike nerf.

S/D thief will NEVER win against a good necro.

Yesterday i had a fight with Sizer in a 1vs1 server and won as a POWER NEC on a tPvP build ( not even a 1vs1 build).

Ask him, he will confirm ( Capanelle here).

S/D is cheese and i would say super forgiving as a set, but it’s not really THAT impactful and can lose against a good tons of builds ( S/P thief, S/F ele, any necro, well played hambow, engies) OR take too much time in killing it.

Fightning a war is almost always too time consuming, for example.

The strenght of an S/D thief is the capability to overextend while still being able to disangage at will, while facetanking even 3 enemies ( number doesn’t really matter).

Surely not it’s 1vs1 capabilities.

It’s the fact that its GOOD ( not almighty, as you want to make it seem) 1vs1 capabilities ARE ADDED to the best mobility and best disangage capabilities.

personally i left S/D and now play S/P, and i find it way superior in coordinated teams ( altough i do solo q only lol), tough more easily countered and tough needing a lot more skill to be played.