Guild Wars 2

So, first off, it looks like the official CDI won’t come before Monday

You may want to take a minute and look at what’s being discussed for suggested formatting to maximize your chances of getting your ideas lodged firmly in a Dev’s brain .

Finally, we have a little time to practice our technique, and a number of posters have volunteered to provide critique and commentary outside of the formal threads to help get proposals whipped into fighting shape before putting them up on stage in the spotlight of Developer review.

I have a Ranger, and I enjoy playing on it, but I’m really concerned with how shoddy the treatment of the profession has been since launch. Hopefully we can work out a little of the frustration ‘in private’ with threads of our own before diving into the CDI clearheaded and calm, ready to make compelling proposals for how things can be made better for the Profession and the game as a whole.

Let’s talk.

At this point I’m basically planning to tackle the topic on4 fronts and in four posts (not chained together into one massibve wall – over a day or two as I polish each thought).

The four areas are~

Weapon Skills. A hard look at how each weapon interacts with the character’s stats, and what is the actual role intended for ach weapon.

Healing/Utility/Elite SKills. What’s going on in our right-hand tray. A look at each fo the Ranger’s skill tags (shouts, traps, survival, etc.) and getting them to play nice with themselves and each the other lines.

Traits, Trait Lines, and Stat Bonuses. What’s the emergent gameplay for each of the 5 trait lines, and how the hell are we supposed to gear competitively?

Core Class Mechanic. Its the elephant in the room (or moa, or pig…) and there’s no ignoring something ain’t right. A look at several strategies for making our beloved fluffy an asset instead of a vulnerability based on things we can see the engine is already capable of.

Each of these lines of thought will have to look out at the others ocassionally (by the Six we have a LOT of traits that hinge on our class mechanic…) but I think I can keep most of my ideas neatly boxed under one of these headers.

Any thoughts on problems, concerns, or issues that fall outside of these areas?

Issue:
1.Pet deals to poor damage for a dps build based on it and too much damage for a tank build who use it as its source of dps
2. Pet cant dodge and dies to much

Solution:
1. Remove the + 10 per point to all stat from beast mastery traitline and replace it with gain 2% of all the master stat per trait point.
2. pet are considered as blurred (blocking all damage) when ranger dodge (this could be a beast mastery trait)

This result in:
1. No more heavy pet damage tank now all tank ranger will deal cheap damage reguardless of how many point they put into pet, Pet becomes a viable build as a glass cannon dps for both condition build and critical damage physical build.
2. Pet no longuer dies constantly from Alpha map covering aoe or other boss mechanics wich should not actualy hit a correctly dodging target.

I’m going to separate these out a little then look at them. I’ve also edited them for clarity.

Pets should mimic their master’s build and reinforce their chosen role. Pets deals poor damage for Rangers in a dps build and too much damage while in a tank build. Change the Companion stat-bonus of Beastmastery from + 10 to all stat per point to 2% of all the master’s stat per trait point (max 60%).

I like it. I also like the way you’ve scaled it as a percentage, which will automatically reflect the Ranger acquiring Ascended tier gear over time. However, there are people you use their pet as a complimentary choice rounding out their abilities, rather than reinforcing their main role. I think for this to work we would need for our pets base stats to be might more strongly aligned with a role. For example make the base stats of Bears so ‘tanky’ that they will still provide a reasonably solid blocker for Rangers in Support or DPS builds.

Pets should not die constantly from map-covering AoE damage or other boss mechanics which can be dodged by skilled players. Pets can’t dodge but their masters can. Add a Beastmastery Trait that pets are considered evading/blurred when their master dodges.

Another simple, potentially very helpful change. There is already a Trait that when a Ranger dodged, their pet gains Protection. Maybe that trait could be reworked rather than adding a new Trait?

Everything I plan to contribute to the thread originally I have discussed before in numerous other threads. Some has been well received, most hasn’t, but I still think it’s things the class needs as a whole and will change the class and game for the better.

I still think it’s going to be hard to really contribute to the official CDI thread unless ANet starts it off clearly stating what their expectations are and what they feel confident they can tackle. Especially where the pet is concerned as we have some people trying to suggest things to make pets a positive impact for the class as if they worked correctly to begin with. We have others making suggestions trying to work around the issues that were brought up in the last balance patch thread. And we have others who are making suggestions as if the pet aspect of the class will be phased out.

Honestly speaking I find all 3 approaches valid given what we’ve seen over the past year.

So what do you want us to do with this thread? Do you want us to post some of the things we plan to discuss in the official thread? Because I’ve already formatted about 4 pages worth of stuff that I’m ready to post once it’s started and would love to hear how terrible my ideas are before things get started

kyubi.3620:

Issue:
1.Pet deals to poor damage for a dps build based on it and too much damage for a tank build who use it as its source of dps
2. Pet cant dodge and dies to much

Solution:
1. Remove the + 10 per point to all stat from beast mastery traitline and replace it with gain 2% of all the master stat per trait point.
2. pet are considered as blurred (blocking all damage) when ranger dodge (this could be a beast mastery trait)

This result in:
1. No more heavy pet damage tank now all tank ranger will deal cheap damage reguardless of how many point they put into pet, Pet becomes a viable build as a glass cannon dps for both condition build and critical damage physical build.
2. Pet no longuer dies constantly from Alpha map covering aoe or other boss mechanics wich should not actualy hit a correctly dodging target.

I don’t even play Ranger and I like your ideas. Really pets should dodge when you do anyways, it could lead to some cool/funny animations with the pets though. Imagine a moa rolling around to dodge or something.

Atherakhia.4086:

Everything I plan to contribute to the thread originally I have discussed before in numerous other threads.

You and me both. My plans start with digging out my old posts and polishing them.

I still think it’s going to be hard to really contribute to the official CDI thread unless ANet starts it off clearly stating what their expectations are and what they feel confident they can tackle. Especially where the pet is concerned as we have some people trying to suggest things to make pets a positive impact for the class as if they worked correctly to begin with. We have others making suggestions trying to work around the issues that were brought up in the last balance patch thread. And we have others who are making suggestions as if the pet aspect of the class will be phased out.

Honestly speaking I find all 3 approaches valid given what we’ve seen over the past year.

Sounds reasonable to me. I hope the follow through on having a Primer at the start of each thread, because we are really in the dark on why some things seem to be such intractable problems.

So what do you want us to do with this thread? Do you want us to post some of the things we plan to discuss in the official thread? Because I’ve already formatted about 4 pages worth of stuff that I’m ready to post once it’s started and would love to hear how terrible my ideas are before things get started

Sure. Basically I’m think of the practice before the debate in debate club. A combination of offering editing suggestions to make the text stronger (and usually shorter…) And some non-hostile criticism. Not “that’s just dumb” but “heres why the Devs are going to ignore that or classify it as un-workable…” A chance to have the flaws pointed out now so they can be fixed or acknowledged, to give the Dev reading it the fewest possible reasons to discard the proposal in the live CDI thread.

The things I’m going to contribute are shout suggestions, weapon suggestions, some outlining suggestions about the pet and some traps and the role of the ranger as archer and his role in a pseudo trinity.

Well I’ll post up a couple and see what others think.

Here’s one for burst damage specifically dealing with the longbow:

Proposal: Burst & AE Suggestion for the Ranger Class
Proposal Overview
One of the larger problems facing Rangers right now is they don’t do enough damage offensively. But that’s not necessarily true as they do have one of the strongest sustained damage abilities at Range. The issue is the only kind of damage that wins fights is burst and AE, and it is in these 2 areas that Ranger has almost no options whatsoever.

My proposal is to give the class a skill similar to Kill Shot and to move Barrage to a utility skill so its damage and utility can be greatly improved without drastically increasing its cooldown.

Goal of Proposal
The only type of damage that matters in WvW is burst and AE. Since the Ranger currently has no burst potential at range and no meaningful AE at all, my goal is to provide this to the Ranger in a way that fits the theme of the Ranger and comes with inherent risks and choices.

Another advantage to my changes is it will make a utility skill that is attractive to a large number of builds because it will provide strong utility, strong power damage, and good condition damage.

Proposal Functionality
I suggest removing Barrage from the Longbow and replacing it with a skill similar in form and function to a Warrior’s Kill Shot. If we can add a utility slot to the Ranger, then there’s no need to replace a skill. If not, I propose replacing Spike Trap with Barrage. Barrage would then be improved to deal additional damage, the first wave of damage immobilizes all targets hit for 2 seconds, each wave of damage also applies a bleed.

This gives the class a burst skill to compliment the Longbow’s playstyle and other abilities. It removes spike trap, which is absolutely useless without traits, in favor of a new skill that is significantly more powerful than a fully traited spike trap because it does more power based damage, does waves of bleeds and cripples instead of just a single hit, has the same immobilize as a traited spike trap, and has a longer range than a traited spike trap.

Associated Risks
Right now there is simply no reward for the risks associated to using Barrage. These changes keep the inherent risks of using the Longbow #5 skill (because it will still have a channel) and barrage (again, it would still retain the channel) for a class that has very poor solutions to cripples, chills, and immobilizes. Any skill/utility that forces the Ranger to stand still is inherently a high risk move, only now there’s a real reward for doing it.

The overwhelming issue that has to be fixed is the class mechanic. It won’t be fixed until Anet Devs decide to devote the time to write its’ own code unshakling it from mob AI. The pets will never be viable and there is no band-aid that will fix it… How do I know? Lead Game Designer has said they’ve been band-aiding and look at the position it puts us in regardless of game mode: handicapped.

Y’all can flap your gums all you want but that is the foundation of this truth.

Regardless, I’ll throw my hat into the fray proposing an alternative to the pets as usual. No matter what they do anything that could be considered a “fix” is going to take a considerable amount of time and effort, perhaps the same or more than it would take to rewrite the entire pet AI code… I no longer cling to the hope that they’ll do the right thing and make me want to play my Ranger again.

Lastly, how long ago did the CDI threads start? Nothing has trickled into the real game. The only thing they have done is reversed decision on things they implemented. THey haven’t changed what was already there. I refuse to hope they’re going to do anything with this CDI six months from now.

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

The things I’m going to contribute are shout suggestions, weapon suggestions, some outlining suggestions about the pet and some traps and the role of the ranger as archer and his role in a pseudo trinity.

I think its a sign why ranger was so overwhelmingly voted "most in need of attention’ that all of these topics could lead to improving the Ranger experience. there is just a ton of things out of whack with this profession…

Pets will never work in wvw situations and we dont have any realy good team skill.

Atherakhia.4086:

Well I’ll post up a couple and see what others think.

Here’s what it looks like after an editing pass .

Rangers: Burst & AoE Suggestions
A problem facing Rangers is they don’t do enough meaningful damage. While they have strong sustained damage abilities at range, it is burst and AoE damage that wins fights. In these areas Rangers have almost no options whatsoever. In WvW, burst and AoE are key to success. Since the Ranger currently has no ranged burst potential and no meaningful AoE at all, provide this to the Ranger in a way that fits the theme of the profession and comes with inherent risks and choices.

Make Ranger Attacks that Matter
Make Longbow #2 similar to Warrior’s Kill Shot – a long induction, high risk/high reward burst/spike. Rangers already have several ways to multiply the damage of a single key attack, but they have no one-hit ranged skill strong enough to properly leverage these abilities.

Convert Barrage to a Utility Skill where its damage and utility can be improved without drastically increasing its cooldown. Barrage would gain an initial immobile effect and bled on each subsequent hit. As a utility skill, Barrage will enhance a range of builds without locking-in weapon choices.

Challenges to Overcome
Adding a new utility to only one profession could unbalance the Utility Skills progression. If necessary, Spike Trap could be removed, as the new Barrage provides similar ranged Immobilization, without demanding the commitment of Trait slots.

Choosing which weapon graphic Barrage defaults to for Rangers with 0 or 2 bows equipped could also present some technical challenges.

Hope this helps .

McWolfy.5924:

Pets will never work in wvw situations and we dont have any realy good team skill.

Pets as they exist now don’t work. That doesn’t mean that workable pets are impossible .

We have good team skills (Call of the Wild, Healing Spring, Spotter, Frost Spirit) we just have terrible variety for team skills… Part of the problem being combat is so one dimensional there’s not many benefits anyone wants, and that leaves very few needs to fill.

Pets should just have their own unique trait trees where we can trait them towards damage or support. They gets points as they level up and additional points in Empathy (from traiting into BM) will give you even more points.

I think that could solve most of the pet problems, and the power creep with ascended gear, once and for all.

Nike.2631:

Challenges to Overcome
Adding a new utility to only one profession could unbalance the Utility Skills progression. If necessary, Spike Trap could be removed, as the new Barrage provides similar ranged Immobilization, without demanding the commitment of Trait slots.

Choosing which weapon graphic Barrage defaults to for Rangers with 0 or 2 bows equipped could also present some technical challenges.

I like the idea of focussing on single target damage on the Longbow and moving the area damage to utilities or maybe the Axe mainhand.

Food for thought: Spike Trap, Muddy Terrain and Entangle currently represent very redundant skills with very similar functionalities. However, Spike Trap will always be worse than Muddy Terrain for its purpose. What if Muddy Terrain replaced Spike Trap as Trap skill and Barrage was renamed and became a Survival Skill. For example, a lighthning or wind themed area effect would work regardless of weapon choice.

My point would be to make the base build less reliant on the pet, while keeping in mind pet is part of the ranger and Anet’s desire to have a synergy between them.

Proposal : reduce reliance on the pet while augmenting group play options and keeping the “synergy” with the pet idea.

a) Have a greater base ratio of damage on the ranger (eg, 90/10 instead of somewhat 70/30). Scale beastmastery to allow for current beastaster’s level of pet damage. That we those who choose so do not much have to rely on the pet, while those who want can.

b) Trait rework.
Unless in beasmastery line, have no trait only affect the pet. Either pet and ranger, or pet and allies or ranger and allies. In order for that not to get “over the board”, it might be “half the effect affect allies”.
No traits should hurt the pet.

c) Skill rework
No skill should have an effect on pet OR master only (except maybe spirits) and need a trait to be useful for the other. Shouts should have an effect on the master and the pet (eg: Guard : Ranger also gets stealth). Same for traps – they shou;d give an advantage to the pet – maybe the opposite of what trap does? (eg: poison gives it regen, spike gives it swiftness, and so on) and signs should affect both; maybe with a reduction of active, making the current duration need to be traited, in sake of balance. Same goes with survival : LR could make pet evade an attack, and so on…

d) Weapons adaptation
Give a direction on weapons. Some should be mainly single target, other mainly multiple targets; not a mix of single target and AoE on all of them. Add some utilities on weapon skills to have “group weapon”. (example : with a blast on maul and something more on #5 (eg: sucessful hit gives some advantage to allies), GS might qualify as “group weapon” (also given they balance #1).
Pretty much everything else is a mix of single/target and AOE. If they make it so some weapons are clearly designed for group (hit many target and give some group advantage) and some for single target (like the sword is), it would open up some opportunities to play in groups for us (given the base damage of each is balanced – not like right now, GS #1 being lackluster and Sword #1 being the only real DPS option), while still allowing for single-target combat. The off-hand (torch/warhorn) might have the ability to press a 2nd time on #4 to have it be AoE…

TL;DR
Shifting base damage back to ranger, while reworking the traits and skills to have a real synergy with the pet (pet and ranger, instead of pet or ranger), would mean that dead pet is no more a dead weight, while an alive pet is still useful, which caters to solo players / small group players and zerg players needs/desires.
Organizing weapons’ skills will allow for a real choice between group play and/or multiple foes situations and solo play and/or solo foes with neutral creatures around.

Xaylin.1860:

Food for thought: Spike Trap, Muddy Terrain and Entangle currently represent very redundant skills with very similar functionalities. However, Spike Trap will always be worse than Muddy Terrain for its purpose. What if Muddy Terrain replaced Spike Trap as Trap skill and Barrage was renamed and became a Survival Skill. For example, a lighthning or wind themed area effect would work regardless of weapon choice.

All 3 have their times…
spike trap, I put near entrances in WvW to stop ennemies from entering. it’s also good to show my group a stealthed player tries to sneak in, which buys them one second to react.
Entangle, I use in melee… people don’t see it at first, often waste stability, which we take off, thus allowing controls affected from stability useful.
Immob time of spike and muddy is not long enough for people to waste skills

Muddy, with it’s range, the fact it does not need to be traited to be useful, I use it to help control bus stragglers, or casters, that our gardians can then pack for a burst. 600 range trap would not make it. cast a 600 range trap in front of you while running, you are on the spot when its finally laid down…

Plus, having muddy terrain in survival allows to run it, lightning reflex and entangle, which maximize the use of one trait (reduced CD on survival skills). We already have enough traits we have to take to make our weapons worth using; I sure don’t want to have to go in trap to have a very minimal usefulness in WvW zerg…

I’d rather have base direct damages of traps increased, given the tree in which they are…