Guild Wars 2

The 600 range of traited traps is a major drawback of trying to run traps in WVW.

Compared to similar AOEs such as wells (900 range), necro marks (1200 range), ele staff earth #2, fire #3, water #4 (all 1200 range), guardian’s purging flames (900 range), the 600 range of traps seems fairly unreasonable.

A traited range of 900 or 750 seems more appropriate. It would also be nice to see trap traits in a more appropriate trait line, as condi utility traits don’t really make sense in a precision/ferocity trait line.

I agree OP
For traps to be any good they need several things
1) 900 range
2) trait compression so they dont take 30 points
3) They need to not take up all 3 utility spots
At the moment traps just aren’t worth it given the trait and utility requirements.
IMO traps should work the same way as an engineers bomb/nade kit does (with ALL traps in 1 kit). If this was done then I would be ok with fully traited traps taking 6 points in crit damage line; freeing up 2 utilities for survival options.
OR
Each trap has 2 seperate functions, both a damage component and a trapping component: Fire/immobilize ; Spike/frost fro example.
ATM traps are only good for hotjoin zerging when they could be much more.

2) i don’t have an issue with a 30 point investment for traps, but for those 30 points they should perform on par with other, similar skills. 600 range is pretty suicidal for a ranged attacker in WVW.
3) it’s a choice to use all 3 slots for traps, which is fine. what could be better IMO is having a trap that stun breaks.

I dont know.. I play trap builds a lot (almost exclusively) and trap range is not something thats ever bothered me. I find trap builds lend themselves to a defensive playstyle and its not common that I even throw my traps to their max range. Usualyl I just throw them infront of myself (200-300 range).

Maybe its just personal preference with how you choose to play the build, but I’d sooner see them change something else such as removing the cast time on traited traps (its much less when untraited), or adding some other buff to them (such as a stunbreaker of Frost Trap, perhaps).

^ i bet you don’t use traps in WVW though – that’s where the 600 range really feels wrong.

for solo roaming in WVW, sure, 600 range is fine, but in larger encounters, the short range is so bad i basically am forced to port to spawn to respec, which just feels wrong.

The thrown projectile speed is very slow so it’s hard to imagine the “extra” range (to bring them to where other AOEs already are) will unbalance them.

I usually play a Grenade Engineer in large scale WvW. Coming from this perspective, I totally understand that the 600 range feels weird. However, I still have fun when playing my Trapper in WvW. It just plays differently.

• I use more tanky equipment
• I don’t throw the Traps from the back/max range but engage and disengage a lot
• I lay Traps and get closer to the enemy blobb to lure people towards me/the Trap

Don’t use Traps as ranged weapons. Otherwise you will just be unhappy. They are not designed that way. If you want to play ranged you can still go Muddy Terrain and pick up some other utilities.

Regarding the trait investment 30 points are totally okay for maxing out a group of utility skills. But ANet has restritribute some of the power of the traits to the baseline skills.

<———- WvW Trapper Ranger. Love em. Don’t change em. Seriously. Don’t. I’ll cut you.

Rangers just need longbow range increased by alot when traited…. ^^,

Shadowbane.7109:

<———- WvW Trapper Ranger. Love em. Don’t change em. Seriously. Don’t. I’ll cut you.

because increased throw range could be bad how?

as i said in OP, roaming they are fine, it’s the larger scale stuff where they’re really limited by throw range.

scerevisiae.1972:

Shadowbane.7109:

<———- WvW Trapper Ranger. Love em. Don’t change em. Seriously. Don’t. I’ll cut you.

because increased throw range could be bad how?

as i said in OP, roaming they are fine, it’s the larger scale stuff where they’re really limited by throw range.

Not all abilities are helpful in all situations. Traps are good in small scale encounters, they don’t have to be good in massive fights. Same as the Moamorph of mesmers.
That said, I would like to be able to throw down more than just one trap of each type.

I have to agree with LostProphet on this. Someone also suggested on the Ranger forum than traps should be the same size and range as Necro Wells… but traps just arent meants to be Wells with a different name. Necros and Eles are clearly the closest thing this game has to the traditional AoE caster gods who dominate a battle, and their Wells and Staff abilities reflect that.

Traps and rangers, on the other had, are designed for smaller scale combat and to be used different, as reflected by their shorter range, size and also CD. They are still good for larger battles, just not with the ranger playing the long-range caster role.

In the interests of class balance though, i think rangers need to have a decent AOE option, and traps are the best candidate. They are already sufficiently differentiated by virtue of being condi-based, whereas wells, meteor storm etc are all power-based.

There is a small power component to traps as well as the conditions, they are supposed to be balanced between the two. So when i said 2 components to traps i meant 3, 1 small power aspect and 2 conditions (damage and cc).
True, its a choice to take 3 traps, however, traps atm are a try to kill them quick playstyle. Playing with 1 less trap makes a noticeable dps difference when stacking them.
Unfottunately traps are really neither great in large or small scale combat. Large scale the range and target limitation (3 as opposed to 5)is a problem. In small scale, 1 invul/teleport/ai setting off traps and your hooped.
I like the trap playstyle but they just need to be better

Shadowbane.7109:

<———- WvW Trapper Ranger. Love em. Don’t change em. Seriously. Don’t. I’ll cut you.

I agree with this statement. I like my traps just the way they are.

What game mode are you playing? The justification for longer trap range is really wvw zerg and gvg formats.

Mostly spvp, though I used to do some wvw roaming as well.
I would argue that trap shortcomings in wvw are similar in spvp.
I just dont see trap rangers in spvp unless its the default build (new and just trying a ranger, thought he default might be spirits now idk). They just dont cut it imo. I have made them work but, man, you have to play like you have 3 arms and position yourself so well , otherwise your dead once evades are on cd and any opponent with a teleport/evade/invulnerability (so , like , all of them lol) can evade a large part of your damage.

So some of you who use traps are against having them buffed? You are against something which is beneficial to you…

You don’t happen to be republicans by any chance…?

Lorelei.3918:

So some of you who use traps are against having them buffed? You are against something which is beneficial to you…

You don’t happen to be republicans by any chance…?

Anet doesn’t just “Buff” anything. There is usually a trade off. For example, with Hunter’s Call, they ‘fixed a bug’ so you can now hit enemies behind objects. What they didn’t tell you is that the new improved version, get obstructed anyways when there is the slightest bump of a hill infront of you. This causes the skill to deal no damage at all and go on cooldown. unlike the previous version of the skill, this newer skill also goes on cooldown whenever it is blocked, evaded, or misses the first shot, meaning the 16 other attacks the skill has never has a chance to deal any damage (but it did with the old version, and I suspect the low damage of the skill was made that way to compensate for that). The skill isn’t anymore useful than before, and I would argue that this so called bug fix made the skill much worse.

I’m not against having traps buffed in any way, I just don’t want to, for example, see the Physical Damage aspect of traps get buffed then see the Condition Damage aspect get nerfed as a result, or see other changes to the skill that makes it work opposite to how it worked before the patch.

And since you made a political comment… (that will inevitably get our posts forced edited by moderators or deleted…..,) my feelings on traps in Guild Wars 2 is not too different from the healthcare outcome in America right now…

Let me ask you. What if Anet came to us and told us about the Trap reforms they are working on. It will improve traps, and it wont mess with our current builds, we’ll get to keep them.

How would you feel if Anet buffed the Range of traps to 900, removed the Physical Damage from traps, nerfed the Condition Damage, and then gave them an effect that you really don’t need them to have (like, for example, red circles from traps are now visible to enemies before they trigger, removing your ability to preemptively throw traps and lure enemies to them), because of the changes to traps, you have to completely change your build to be effective with them, if thats what you want to call it.

But, good news everyone! Out of the 300,000 Rangers that the new Traps affect, only 6,000 actually signed up to use them over the last year, and a further 4,000 signed up for the alternative medi-traps because they didn’t qualify, which are just as effective as the traps that regular rangers have access to, but without a cooldown….since every medi-trap user has access to them, all 12,000 medi-trap users are put on a waiting list, and might get to use them once every couple of days, and if they fail to use the medi-traps during that time, they get put back on the end of the waiting list. Regardless of whether you are using the reformed traps or the new medi-traps, Some medi-trap Rangers might have Characters less than 12 months old, or more than 65 months old,… in which case an employee at Anet will have authority over you and decide if you have the right to use traps at all!

scathing sarcasm aside (that you probably wont get), I don’t see any reason to change traps unless you or Anet can guarantee (and prove beforehand beyond a reasonable doubt) that its actually an improvement to the skill instead of an unecessary addition or change.

So I was right after all. Kay. A political joke won’t get a post deleted but

“scathing sarcasm aside (that you probably wont get)”

personal attacks will.

I didn’t even read your medi trap stuff. Sorry it was TL:DR.

But I get the gist of it. You think anet will nerf traps if they buff them.

That’s silly. Anet has buffed LOTS of things without nerfing them at the same time. They upped Maul and LB damage in the past(not nearly enough, but they did buff it). What about Dhuumfire? That was a crazy buff with no tradeoffs for necros and it took almost a year for them to semi nerf it.

But put that aside…

Not even being able to request a buff out of fear of a nerf is just plain bass ackward. Its ridiculous on its face. That is what this forum is HERE for. If we can’t even discuss a buff for a utility that needs it for fear of the wrath of god Anet, we might as well just close up this forum right now.

Lorelei.3918:

So some of you who use traps are against having them buffed? You are against something which is beneficial to you…

You don’t happen to be republicans by any chance…?

Just because I use something doesnt mean I automatically am in favour of any and all buffs to it. Hard as it is to imagine, some people genuinely hope for balance in this game, not just to have their build / class / playstyle be the most powerful one to rule them all.

Lorelei.3918:

So I was right after all. Kay. A political joke won’t get a post deleted but

“scathing sarcasm aside (that you probably wont get)”

personal attacks will.

I didn’t even read your medi trap stuff. Sorry it was TL:DR.

But I get the gist of it. You think anet will nerf traps if they buff them.

That’s silly. Anet has buffed LOTS of things without nerfing them at the same time. They upped Maul and LB damage in the past(not nearly enough, but they did buff it). What about Dhuumfire? That was a crazy buff with no tradeoffs for necros and it took almost a year for them to semi nerf it.

But put that aside…

Not even being able to request a buff out of fear of a nerf is just plain bass ackward. Its ridiculous on its face. That is what this forum is HERE for. If we can’t even discuss a buff for a utility that needs it for fear of the wrath of god Anet, we might as well just close up this forum right now.

What? Define how my metamorphic commentary that (mostly)jokingly compares how Anet balances skills to how a country handles healthcare attack you personally?

Also, They upped Maul in the past, but you need to realize that this was after nerfs that also happened in the past that aparently nerfed the skill a little too far. LB damage was also buffed in the past, but also came after ‘changes’ to the other skills on the weapon that some think of as nerfs (10 stacks of vulnerability over time instead of all at once for example). You can’t have one without the other, especially since Anet has said numerous times that they want to avoid power creep (and increasing trap range by 50% could be considered a form of power creep)

What you need to do is explain what the 900 range will do? What will make a 50% increase in the range of thrown traps better than they are now, and what will keep traps balanced against those other skills that OP mentioned, considering that the ones that aren’t weapon skills and can be compard to traps as utility skills have longer cooldowns than traps do, and wells (the closest comparison) have 5 traits spread across 3 trait lines, while we only have 2 traits in the same section to deal with.

I quoted a single sentence, not the entire paragraph for a reason. Don’t pretend like " (that you probably wont get)" isn’t a backhanded way of saying I’m dim witted. ok?

Second. Anet says a lot of stuff and likes to contradict themselves. There are enough examples of classes that have gotten buff after buff with no strings attached (cough warriors cough).

Third. The shortbow. It has 900 range. The axe. It has 900 range. These are our two primary condition weapons. Traps are our primary condition utilities. But traps only have 600 range. You see the issue here right?

If there is any class in need of some ‘power creep’, it is the Ranger.

If there is any class in need of some ‘power creep’, it is the Ranger.[/quote]

Agreed
Traps could fill a big hole in the ranger kitten nal (lmao censored) repetoire then, aoe.

The OP said that traps need to have 900 range because Other Profession skills have longer range than traps. When I press the issue on you Lorelei, you completely skirt around that, instead making a completely different reason why traps should have longer range, citing our weapons instead.

Traps need 900 range

No. The whole point of traps is to lure your enemies into them. If you can just toss them across an area at will, it turns them into grenades instead of traps, and, isn’t there another profession in this game that uses Grenades already?

dylan.5409:

2) trait compression so they dont take 30 points

No. We have only 2 trap traits that, while it does require a 30 point investment, it is nowhere near as bad as Necromancers, who for marks, have 4 traits spread across 4 trait lines, and for wells, have 4 traits spread across 3 trait lines. I didn’t include the revival traits, since they are generally useless and unrelated to making traps, marks, or wells better.

If anything, traps need more traits, not less. They don’t even have to be in Skirmishing. They also don’t need to be so damage centric like the current traits are. There could be a trait in Wilderness Survival that makes traps break stuns. There could be a trait in Nature Magic that makes traps remove boons from enemies.

Trap AoE sux

No. Trap AoE is the same size as marks. Both have traits to increase the radius, and after increasing the radius, both sets of skills have the same traited AoE as Wells do. Lets keep note that traps and marks have shorter cooldowns than wells have normally, so it is justified to give them smaller AoE unless traited. Lets also keep note that the AoE I’m talking about is after the trap activates. Try not to forget that traps are Invisible to enemies until triggered, and you need to actually have some ability at luring enemies into them instead of just grenading them everywhere.

Is there anything else about traps that someone thinks is horrible? I’m sure I can explain why its like that to you.

…also, this ::::

Just because I use something doesnt mean I automatically am in favour of any and all buffs to it. Hard as it is to imagine, some people genuinely hope for balance in this game, not just to have their build / class / playstyle be the most powerful one to rule them all.

Lorelei.3918:

I quoted a single sentence, not the entire paragraph for a reason. Don’t pretend like " (that you probably wont get)" isn’t a backhanded way of saying I’m dim witted. ok?

No, its just that very few people get my jokes, so I decided to take initiative in saying that you probably wouldn’t get the joke, and I said (that you probably wont get) as a direct reference to the last paragraph, calling it a joke without actually calling it a joke(that you TL;DR’d, then subsequently got insulted by the next paragraph that you did read). It doesn’t make you dim witted. It just means that your sense of humor is a little different than mine is. And also, that you should read the entire post instead of skimming through it.

Chrispy.5641:

The OP said that traps need to have 900 range because Other Profession skills have longer range than traps.

…which is a completely valid reason to buff trap range. The key comparison skill type here is marks, which are 1200 range with very similar effects to traps, which require 0 traits. 900 range is completely reasonable.

Traps need 900 range

No. The whole point of traps is to lure your enemies into them.

Says who? Since when do traps get thrown like a projectile in real life?

Trying to argue semantics in a fantasy MMO is a bit pointless. The point here is to address ranger deficiencies in WVW, and to me, traps are an obvious candidate.

If you can just toss them across an area at will, it turns them into grenades instead of traps, and, isn’t there another profession in this game that uses Grenades already?

um, you can already do that.

The only issue with trap traits is the obvious incongruence of having condi-based utilities in a precision/crit damage trait line.

Wouldn’t hurt to have an additional trait that granted a support-ish aspect to traps, which is the other area of ranger need in WVW.

Chrispy.5641:

Shadowbane.7109:

<———- WvW Trapper Ranger. Love em. Don’t change em. Seriously. Don’t. I’ll cut you.

I agree with this statement. I like my traps just the way they are.

I dont play a Ranger but i would love to have castles with corridors where rangers could set traps ^^ (more choke points) not that big empty area….

interesting discussion, chrispy makes good Points
the ranger increase, sure sounds cool for a lot, but ist more a QoL buff and wvw buff.
for pvp it isnt needed, further the foe, further the way the throwed trap must fly, more time for the foe to come closer. when a Trapper noticed that they throw them in the original range and the big “buff” is not necessary anymore, but for that and the anet philosophy “we buff that, but nerf that” and vice versa, we will loose something, maybe not on traps, but in General.
for example last patch anet buffed Pet AI, for that they nerfed/fixed shortbow AA bleed, the #4 horn attack and the Spirit heal. Give and take.

And i think it will be hard to see such wvw/QoL buffs for ranger because the balancer are more pvp Player and in pvp ranger are in a good place, even some Whiner tell the world the opposite.
And they have the strange opinion, bug is bug and Need to be fixed, even if classes worked well with them without that some ever noticed about it.
I mean Shortbow is now less useful for condi builds and horn is now just a niche weapon because the whole attack can be evaded when the first attack didnt hit and no one ever noticed that that was a bug. Bugs in a game are normal but such bugs who were since headstarts and werent OP are no bugs, they are Features.

Give and take.

If there are underperforming builds then there is no reason for there to be a nerf accompanying a buff.
One of the biggest shortcomings of trap rangers is their kitten survivability. So if traps were turned into a kit, with grandmaster traits that allowed for a greater variety (say dust trap for example) or something along those lines it would greatly expand rangers versatility and survivability. Traps need to be good without a 30 point investment, and they aren’t at the moment.
Would this make the build similar to other aoe cond builds? Yes ,I suppose it would, but I dont have a problem with that. It would still retain the ranger flavor while narrowing the, imo wide, gap between aoe cond classes.

scerevisiae.1972:

Chrispy.5641:

The OP said that traps need to have 900 range because Other Profession skills have longer range than traps.

…which is a completely valid reason to buff trap range. The key comparison skill type here is marks, which are 1200 range with very similar effects to traps, which require 0 traits. 900 range is completely reasonable.

Don’t forget that traps don’t require a trait to be unblockable, Marks do. Marks are weapon skills, traps aren’t. Etc. I went over this is my previous post.

I don’t want Traps to be marks on a Ranger, I want them to be traps.

scerevisiae.1972:

Chrispy.5641:

If you can just toss them across an area at will, it turns them into grenades instead of traps, and, isn’t there another profession in this game that uses Grenades already?

um, you can already do that.

If you try to use traps like grenades (as many people n this thread say they do), and go head to head with another profession using traps, you will get your kitten handed to you on a silver platter 9 out of 10 times, and rightfully so.

scerevisiae.1972:

The only issue with trap traits is the obvious incongruence of having condi-based utilities in a precision/crit damage trait line.

Wouldn’t hurt to have an additional trait that granted a support-ish aspect to traps, which is the other area of ranger need in WVW.

Agree with the second point here, but on the first, by your logic, shouldn’t all shortbow traits also be in Wilderness survival then because its condition based?

dylan.5409:

Give and take.

If there are underperforming builds then there is no reason for there to be a nerf accompanying a buff.
One of the biggest shortcomings of trap rangers is their kitten survivability. So if traps were turned into a kit, with grandmaster traits that allowed for a greater variety (say dust trap for example) or something along those lines it would greatly expand rangers versatility and survivability. Traps need to be good without a 30 point investment, and they aren’t at the moment.
Would this make the build similar to other aoe cond builds? Yes ,I suppose it would, but I dont have a problem with that. It would still retain the ranger flavor while narrowing the, imo wide, gap between aoe cond classes.

Traps as a kit so we can still use some survival skills would be a cool idea. Of course untraited(with current traits and trap skills), it would function more like the Engineer’s Bomb kit with Pulsing bombs. With traits, it would be more like pulsing Grenades. That would be cool.

However it works, they should retain the flavor of traps, not turn into Pulsing grenades and bombs.

With all traps in one kit like engineers and having 900 range on it instead of 600, I feel like ALOT of rangers would be considering running trapper. I know I would certainly love it.

Having to sacrifice every utility skill bars makes the player so vulnerable, plus by taking traps you’re making yourself already a lot squishier than lets say a spirit build or beastmaster build for spvp.

I have to say I really REALLY hate this idea of traps in a kit. I dislike the way engis play because of they way they constantly are swapping kit, and it would completely put me off wanting to play traps at all.

Also, I dont feel like trap rangers lack survivability. 2 traps + LR/SoR is perfectly fine.

I do like the idea that traps could be traited for provide defensive buffs in some way if people generally think the survivability is lacking.. but reworking traps into Grenades V2 is a terrible terrible solution.

I know what you mean Cufufalating, but the thing is in the current state if you only take 2 traps, viper’s nest and frost trap will be utility skills that will ALWAYS be ignored no matter what. Spike Trap and Fire Trap is just too good to take a long cooldown chill trap and a trap that puts poison (we already have plenty of poison).

I really like the idea of giving defensive buffs but imo traps should all be on one utility slot. That’s just personal opinion.

True, but perhaps them the solution is to be buffing frost trap and vipers nest to perform different functions.

For example, removing the cripple and bleed from spike trap (I know, the hate is coming!) and give it a longer immobilise and hugely buffed direct damage, essentially making it a non-condition trap. Make Vipers nest to be a hard hitting direct damage trap too and there you have it, flame trap and frost trap can be taken happily by condition builds and spike trap and vipers nest can be used by drect damage builds.

To me, thats in a nicer solution to giving every trap a good use, rather than trying to apply some awkward engi mechanic to rangers.

Chrispy.5641:

Traps as a kit so we can still use some survival skills would be a cool idea. Of course untraited(with current traits and trap skills), it would function more like the Engineer’s Bomb kit with Pulsing bombs. With traits, it would be more like pulsing Grenades. That would be cool.

I really dislike the idea of a Trap kit. Besides not fitting the class design it will also be extremly difficult to balance since it basically provides Rangers with a third weapon set. If the devs were looking for a way to improve survivability of Trappers it probably got to happen through traits or weapon skills.

• Regen (e.g. Warhorn) and Vigor (e.g. Bonfire on Torch) through weapon skills
• Restricted condition removal through weapon skills (e.g. Horn/Torch)
• Area blind when Traps are triggered, not per pulse (trait, increases survivability)
• x% shorter CC duration for x seconds when a Trap is triggered (trait, compensates for the lack of stunbreakers)

Cufufalating.8479:

For example, removing the cripple and bleed from spike trap (I know, the hate is coming!) and give it a longer immobilise and hugely buffed direct damage, essentially making it a non-condition trap. Make Vipers nest to be a hard hitting direct damage trap too and there you have it, flame trap and frost trap can be taken happily by condition builds and spike trap and vipers nest can be used by drect damage builds.

Personally, I’d prefer the direct damage component of Frost Trap being increased. Vipers Nest already is useful for power builds because of the reduced healing potency and can also be used for applying Weakness. Increasing the direct damage component could make it too overpowering in a hybrid build.