Ranger mobility/pace is what is needed

Ranger mobility/pace is what is needed

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Posted by: aus.2586

aus.2586

The up coming buffs are nice dont get me wrong im grateful its just that the ranger long bow damage atm really isnt a problem its our lack of mobility/evasive mechanics that ensures we rarely get a chance to shine or as we have close to 0 survivability. The damage increase will not ensure a greater presence or inclusion in tpvp (which is all i play if i can be honest) what we need is escape options and the ability to make kiting with with our range weaps a reality. We need a place in tpvp, a role in tpvp which is unique to rangers (to point where taking one isnt a liability to the team) that people think “ok we need this type of pressure or utility, hey jump on your ranger please.” When was the last time anyone heard this honestly?

I hope this didnt sound to ranty or like qq as this wasent my intention. Thanks for your time.

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

The up coming buffs are nice dont get me wrong im grateful its just that the ranger long bow damage atm really isnt a problem its our lack of mobility/evasive mechanics that ensures we rarely get a chance to shine or as we have close to 0 survivability.

This is where I stopped reading.

  • survivability / evades
    - new signet of stone
    - protect me
    - sword #2 and #3
    - dagger #4
    - LB #3 and #4
    - Lightning reflexes
  • mobility
    - sword #2
    - lightning reflexes
    - GS #3

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Posted by: aus.2586

aus.2586

and how does that work for you against a good thief or warrior?

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Posted by: Prysin.8542

Prysin.8542

never met a good warrior. Their all the same. After the patch, there will be a distinct difference, but now? no. Warrior is warrior. They will die.

Thief? Just play one for 15 minutes and you know exactly how they work.

Lv 80 Guard, Ranger, Ele, Thief, warr, engi
Currently @ some T1 server in EU

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Posted by: Durzlla.6295

Durzlla.6295

and how does that work for you against a good thief or warrior?

Seeing as how our pure melee builds (Sword +GS) are able to keep up with, and even out run thieves, i’d say pretty kittening well.

Not to mention that our prof as a whole has a high uptime on swiftness, and we can very easily get 25% mobility boost from SotH and after the patch taking it won’t be a “wasted slot” since you’d be able to activate it for your next attack to be a baby crit (same damage bonus as a baseline crit, but it can also crit so…..)

And as for survivability… yeah…. i mean…. really? We have a kitten ton of evades, our SoS is gonna give us access to another 0 point invuln, we have protect me, we’ve got LR to break stuns, evade and fly back to 900 range, we have access to stealth, we have a reflect against ranged attacks on axe 5, we’ve got a block on GS4, we’re getting ANOTHER evade on GS3, we have soft CC for dayz, not to mention the amount of regen we have, and how effortlessly we can get protection for ourselves.

We are far from being bad with mobility or survivability.

They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

Kiting is dead in this game, unless you have skills that can be ground-targeted and used behind the character.

Sure, you can do that disengage with Sword. But that’s not kiting, that’s disengaging. If you could swap from LB to sword, leap back on cd and immediatly go back to LB, that would be more possible.

There’s just way too wide gap between professions when it comes to mobility and ranged options to consider kiting as a thing. Sure, you may kite some necromancer (but, tbh, haven’t met any ranger I couldn’t just grasp and prevent from “kiting”), but a Warrior, a Thief ? Forget about that.

In current balance system and character movement, punishing you HEAVILY for any try of real kiting, things like Longbow will always be just a funny option or burst-or-die. Never sustained, interesting plays.

When a profession can just mash one button and teleport directly on top of you with no cooldown, kiting doesn’t matter.

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

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Posted by: BrunoBRS.5178

BrunoBRS.5178

ranger is only second to acro S/D thief in amount of evades available… and they’re pretty mobile through skills too. if you want to disengage or just run long distances, S/W+GS has you covered. if you want in-fight defenses, pack some canines on top of all the S/x and GS defenses. if you want range, LB has plenty of defensive options on it AND it’s a ranged weapon.

if you want strong kiting on sPvP, LB has you covered. most PvP maps have a decent amount of verticality that lets you exploit terrain to rain hell on melee characters or point fighters, and the faster barrage casting will help it even more.

the problem people seem to be presenting here is that, guess what, you can’t kite against the anti-kiting weapon. thief sword provides a lot of melee pressure, and thief as a profession is the kinda guy that gets to pick his fights, no matter how much you insist. if they give you kiting power strong enough to force even a thief out, then suddenly you’re untouchable by any of the other 6 professions that aren’t thief.

people seriously need to stop asking for balance based on 1v1s VS thief.

LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell

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Posted by: Expiatus.4210

Expiatus.4210

and how does that work for you against a good thief or warrior?

Watch this guy, he does pretty well for himself.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/The-ranger-hits-again/first#post4285533

Anvil Rock – Out manned, out gunned and no repair costs, so Leeroy up and dive in.
See you in Tyria.

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Posted by: snow.8097

snow.8097

and how does that work for you against a good thief or warrior?

A mysterious power named “skill”.
I heard of it and i think it is not just a myth :o

Safi/Clio Del Ray |Ranger, Elonas Reach,
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestions-Gemstore-Items/page/31#post4533037
the skrittfinisher was my idea!

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Posted by: Durzlla.6295

Durzlla.6295

Kiting is dead in this game, unless you have skills that can be ground-targeted and used behind the character.

Sure, you can do that disengage with Sword. But that’s not kiting, that’s disengaging. If you could swap from LB to sword, leap back on cd and immediatly go back to LB, that would be more possible.

There’s just way too wide gap between professions when it comes to mobility and ranged options to consider kiting as a thing. Sure, you may kite some necromancer (but, tbh, haven’t met any ranger I couldn’t just grasp and prevent from “kiting”), but a Warrior, a Thief ? Forget about that.

In current balance system and character movement, punishing you HEAVILY for any try of real kiting, things like Longbow will always be just a funny option or burst-or-die. Never sustained, interesting plays.

When a profession can just mash one button and teleport directly on top of you with no cooldown, kiting doesn’t matter.

You can very easily keep away from them especially if you’re using a dual ranged weapon build, if you’re doing melee/ranged you will not have as easy of a time, but you normally don’t NEED to since you do have a melee weapon which can help you fight toe to toe.

However if you’re a ranger and you’re having issues staying away from people despite the teleports you’re a bad ranger. Vs a thief or a warrior you wont be keeping them at 1k range the whole fight like you might be able to vs a necro, but you can sure as hell be just out of their melee range, you know, where they can’t hit you but you can hit them.

They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna

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Posted by: Black Box.9312

Black Box.9312

As a guardian main, I read this and silently wept.

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Posted by: iSpook.5612

iSpook.5612

more rangers need to try there survival skills way more. I get good kiting and removes conditions.

rangers should be focusing on is that they will have to pick read the wind or more damage when cripple you WILL NOT get both. I think this is just wrong? Whats the point of having these skills separate again this hinders the new skills far more than kiting.

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Posted by: Durzlla.6295

Durzlla.6295

more rangers need to try there survival skills way more. I get good kiting and removes conditions.

rangers should be focusing on is that they will have to pick read the wind or more damage when cripple you WILL NOT get both. I think this is just wrong? Whats the point of having these skills separate again this hinders the new skills far more than kiting.

God forbid you have to actually choose traits and make decisions instead of one trait in each slot being clearly the best option….

Not to mention, Read the Wind is LB on, where the other is ANY weapon, and paired with the new intimidation training would be very good at taking advantage of the damage boost. And before you say “read the wind is mandatory because blah blah blah arrows don’t hit blah blah” if they’re crippled, that strafing thing doesn’t work, and if you take Predators Onslaught chances are you’re going for a lot of cripples, chills, and/or immobs.

They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna

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Posted by: Atherakhia.4086

Atherakhia.4086

To be fair, most classes that have to make ‘tough’ choices in their trees tend not to have to make them for the same weapon and/or playstyle. Often one is defensive or offensive or one is for swords and the other is for daggers etc.

While you’re right about RtW and the new trait because the new trait is more oriented toward the sword (imo), the choice between RtW and Remorseless shouldn’t exist (ignoring the simple fact that Remorseless is awful and no one would ever take it of course).

To a lesser extent the Ranger runs into the same problem with their master traits. Choosing Eagle Eye vs Piercing Arrows vs Spotter is similarly ‘unfair’ in my opinion.

I’m also not in agreement with the mobility a lot of people say the class has. Especially on a longbow build. While you can evade 3 times as a Ranger with Sword/Dagger and you can kite with a Shortbow, both of these still don’t provide the kind of defense that’s required on a power build. It works out great on a condi/bunker build because you sustain damage while evading.

Again, my opinion only, the mobility and kiting potential this class has isn’t sufficient for a power build. Nor is the ability to reposition for a primarily ranged playstyle there (largely because of the dead time between weapon swaps).

For duels and very small scale roaming the class has the tools to succeed if you’re playing a bunker or condi build, sure. Power I don’t feel is sufficient. Especially not in larger battles like organized GvG or even zerg play.

(edited by Atherakhia.4086)

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Posted by: Prysin.8542

Prysin.8542

To be fair, most classes that have to make ‘tough’ choices in their trees tend not to have to make them for the same weapon and/or playstyle. Often one is defensive or offensive or one is for swords and the other is for daggers etc.

While you’re right about RtW and the new trait because the new trait is more oriented toward the sword (imo), the choice between RtW and Remorseless shouldn’t exist (ignoring the simple fact that Remorseless is awful and no one would ever take it of course).

To a lesser extent the Ranger runs into the same problem with their master traits. Choosing Eagle Eye vs Piercing Arrows vs Spotter is similarly ‘unfair’ in my opinion.

I’m also not in agreement with the mobility a lot of people say the class has. Especially on a longbow build. While you can evade 3 times as a Ranger with Sword/Dagger and you can kite with a Shortbow, both of these still don’t provide the kind of defense that’s required on a power build. It works out great on a condi/bunker build because you sustain damage while evading.

Again, my opinion only, the mobility and kiting potential this class has isn’t sufficient for a power build. Nor is the ability to reposition for a primarily ranged playstyle there (largely because of the dead time between weapon swaps).

For duels and very small scale roaming the class has the tools to succeed if you’re playing a bunker or condi build, sure. Power I don’t feel is sufficient. Especially not in larger battles like organized GvG or even zerg play.

i agree that longbow on its own does not provide kiting ability, however kiting is in 99.9% of cases done versus single or at max, double targets. Not a whole group (at that point, you aint tryin to kite, your trying to get to a safe location as there is no safe distance).

So considering a 1v1 or 1v2 scenario, the longbow in ADDITION to Muddy Terrain/Entangle and/or Lighting Reflexes and your pet, your should be able to maintain adequate distance to NOT rely completely on the bow itself.

One should also look at how you intend to play. This game has a secondary weapon choice for a reason, it is there to suppliment your primary choice, so that you can attempt to cover up the weaknesses your build may or may not have.
This is why GS works so well alongside LB. Because it offers solid defensive options alongside a potent burst potential. It should be noted that while a weapon on its own may not have a fully stacked toolbox, it is the intent of the developers that we use two sets of weapons in order to fill up that toolbox whith whatever tools we think we need.

Lv 80 Guard, Ranger, Ele, Thief, warr, engi
Currently @ some T1 server in EU

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Posted by: Atherakhia.4086

Atherakhia.4086

Prysin, I’ve tried to state my opinion on this topic and never had much luck in the past. It’s a difficult one to address on the forums. I’ll try and get my point across though so I appologize in advance if this is wordy.

I do agree with you that it’s the developers intent for each class to use both weapons and that each weapon set should compliment each other. I just feel that the Ranger’s weapons present the least functional sets in the game from a power standpoint.

LB+GS are the best power pair the Ranger has. Neither weapon is good on their own and I would argue are probably among the worst weapons in the game. Together they provide nearly everything a power oriented class would need. But because each weapon is so weak individually, the lack of a weapon swap cooldown really hits the pair hard.

It’s a similar issue with Sword and Dagger in my opinion. The set is an amazing power set and provides a lot of the raw utility you’d need as a power class. The problem is the weapons remove all pressure while doing the evade and the lack of burst on the weapons and lack of hard CC on the set.

But these are power oriented problems. As a condi, you don’t have these problems and improving the set to more closely mirror the offensive capabilities of other classes would make a condi build horrendously overpowered.

Now that all said, this is strictly looking at the weapons alone. Obviously the Ranger has the pet which provides some of the missing utility and pressure and when taken into consideration (especially for Sw+D) the set is actually pretty strong even as a power build.

The problem then being how poorly implemented the pets are overall and how they go down in value to the point of being nearly worthless when we talk about even just small groups.

Honestly speaking, the change to Rapid Fire I’m not a fan of. It gives me what I’ve wanted on the bow (burst), but Rapid Fire was one of the few tools to use on the longbow to kite with because it did a set amount of damage regardless of range so you could use it at short/mid range while kiting and still provide high damage. It was good filler between Hunter’s Shot and Point Blank Shot while kiting etc. An argument could be made that you can still do this, but the weapon set still didn’t gain much in overall power imo.

What the class needs is a way to maintain a ranged advantage without surrendering all damage and utility. It’s this area the mobility of the class needs to be improved.

Simply giving the class a ranged burst skill would have worked, but not in exchange for Rapid Fire. A Fast Hands trait would also do the trick (on Quick Draw and only if a bow is equipped imo). Making pets more reliable in group combat would also likely do the trick (50% less damage from AE in WvW only). So would a pass of all pet skills (so they all have uniform cast times and can actually track moving targets).

Again… sorry for the rambling. I’m not good at getting my point across on this topic and explaining why mobility is really an issue and why the changes, while a good start, fell a bit short.

(edited by Atherakhia.4086)

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Posted by: Arghore.8340

Arghore.8340

@Atherakhia, the thing is though, giving the highest range weapon a high evasion, is basically OP to begin with, because then nobody can touch it, and the long range, high evade always wins…

I would also like to know against which kind of professions you think it needs higher evade/escape power. Because my suspicion is that it’s not the ranger lacking kite abilities, but there are a couple of professions that have to easy an access to gap-closers/makers, with to big a range on them, so that there is hardly any time to use which little there is to do something about it…

We are peace, we are war. We are how we treat each other and nothing more…
25 okt 2014 – PinkDay in LA

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Posted by: Atherakhia.4086

Atherakhia.4086

It’s not a lot of evasion I’m after. Swapping to Greatsword and simply using swoop should (and is in many situations) enough to get away. We have some tools like entangle (which unfortunately removes RaO) and Muddy Terrain to help if you’re being trained by larger numbers and the stealth isn’t enough.

The issue I have is more related to the fact that we swap to GS to reposition and we’re stuck in it for 10 seconds doing nothing so it’s not a good ‘kiting’ skill. If we use it to engage and Maul isn’t enough to finish the target off, we’re again stuck in a weapon with poor damage and poor trait support because of how large an investment the longbow needs just to become remotely effective.

What I’m really after is a trait to reduce the cooldown on weapon swap like Warriors have. You can even attach it to quick draw and make it require a bow in one hand to really limit its use (since we would then lose nearly all condi clear and things like enemy cripples and immobilize would counter the range advantage it represents).

As to the specific targets we need help kiting and repositioning against? Well it’s obviously Thieves and Warriors primarily and to a lesser extent burst Guards. But that’s also all the dedicated melee classes in the game.

No one wants Rangers to have the equivilent of Feline Grace + Sw+D + blink on a 20 second cooldown that dazes the opponent and gives the Ranger every single positive boon in the game for 10 seconds and then a backup 600 range port and condi clear on no cooldown.

But some reasonable counter to the first time a Thief tries to pull that on you that didn’t involve you swapping to an ineffective weapon for 10 seconds would be ideal.

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Posted by: Eliesume.1687

Eliesume.1687

The issue I have is more related to the fact that we swap to GS to reposition and we’re stuck in it for 10 seconds doing nothing so it’s not a good ‘kiting’ skill. If we use it to engage and Maul isn’t enough to finish the target off, we’re again stuck in a weapon with poor damage and poor trait support because of how large an investment the longbow needs just to become remotely effective.

What I’m really after is a trait to reduce the cooldown on weapon swap like Warriors have. You can even attach it to quick draw and make it require a bow in one hand to really limit its use (since we would then lose nearly all condi clear and things like enemy cripples and immobilize would counter the range advantage it represents).

Go into GS as soon as your kiting advantages comes to an end. Engage with AA, #2 and defend with #4, #5. Don’t for get pet’s F2 as well. Then swoop away with 2~3s left on swap. Use GS#3 strictly as escape, even though it has good dmg/leap finisher. This would provide better kiting if your primary is LB.

Rangers don’t need to be more like Warriors.

~Tarnished Coast~
80’s – Ele, Guard, Mes, Necro, Ranger, Thief, War

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Posted by: iSpook.5612

iSpook.5612

gosh I hate it when ppl don’t think. The guardian and ele damage increases cost 2. The warrior traits to increase are 4 slot traits

The new ones for the ranger to help FIX the profession are not only 6 trait line BUT they are on the same line? How does that make everything better for the ranger? Why must ppl poo on someone wanting to fix the rangers?

Just wait till your profession patch, and I wont dump on you when you notice anet didn’t make your character better either

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Posted by: shadowpass.4236

shadowpass.4236

and how does that work for you against a good thief or warrior?

rlly well actually.

s/d thieves are another problem… actually. I should say thieves in general are harder if they are good.

but warriors. pshh. omg I stomp them on my ranger lol

and I run power ranger too.

I was a power ranger before it was cool.
Guild Leader of Favorable Winds [Wind]